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Jesus Or Paul Teachings

When the teachings of Paul seem to conflict with those of Jesus, whose side are you on?

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 ---Jerry6593 on 8/10/16
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The gospel of the kingdom didn't require knowledge of the cross of Christ, not to mention understanding what it meant.
Luke 9:1-2 Jesus sent his disciples to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God.
Nine chapters later, Jesus tells the same disciples he must die, and they were clueless. Luke 18:34
The preaching of the gospel of the kingdom is without the preaching of the cross.
However, Pauls gospel includes the cross, moreover, it is the preaching of the cross. 1 Cor 15:1-4
The disciples in red letters were ignorant of the gospel of the cross. Yet, the preaching of the cross is the power of God unto salvation for the church today (1 Cor 1:18).
---michael_e on 8/23/16


The Law was given by God to ISRAEL. Jesus came to preach to ISRAEL, who were under the Law.--StrongAxe on 8/23/16

StrongAxe
I agree we are not under the Law of Moses, but do you believe we are under no Law? Paul referred to the gospels as the Law of Christ. What do you think the Law of Christ is, and who is under that Law?
---David on 8/24/16


Nicole: Don't whine about us Protestants picking on you. You're tougher than that, and can hold your own just fine. It's the liberal Demoncrats that whine like schoolkids, and I know you're not one of them.


Mark the Axe: You're right about context, but you don't observe it. The meaning of "Law" is also variable and context defined, as I've shared before. Your disdain for the fourth Commandment has led you to the conclusion that only Jews are covered by Law.

So what Law is written on YOUR heart in the New Covenant?


---Jerry6593 on 8/24/16


//NO SUCH THING AS PAUL'S GOSPEL!// You disagree with the Bible.//
No I disagree with you CHANGING the Bible!//
Study and see if these scriptures are in your traditions
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY GOSPEL.
1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of THE GOSPEL is committed unto me.
---michael_e on 8/23/16


Rom 2:16 according to my gospel"--Mark_Eaton//

You can't confuse New Christianity on a PERSONAL Belief.

Michael refused to correct himself and doubled now on the 'Paul's Gospel.'

Explains 60,000 different Protestant denominations.
You all can't even agree on how many Gospels are in the Bible.

4 That's it. No more.
They are called: The Gospel of Jesus according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The Scripture you cited is headed 'The Letter to the Romans'

NO 'GOSPEL' WORD in that HEADING

That's why at Mass the Lector (reader) states:
"A letter from Saint Paul to the Romans"

You all CLAIM you love the Bible so much, so DEPEND it!

4 Gospels ONLY.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/23/16




there is a 5th Gospel written by Paul
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/23/16

I see more than one meaning to the word Gospel.

First, within the Bible itself, I read of the Gospel of God, Gospel of Christ, Gospel of the Kingdom, Gospel of Peace, preaching a different gospel, an everlasting gospel, etc.

Secondly, there is a classification of Books in the Bible that are called Gospels or biographies. In this classification, there are four books but only one subject, Jesus.

I believe MichaelE was referring to my first list of Gospels, as Paul refers to his own writing here:

Rom. 2:16 "in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel"
---Mark_Eaton on 8/23/16


Some bias going on here on CN by it's Protestant's members.

If a Catholic or Orthodox claimed there was a Gospel written by Paul you all would have been all over that person.

But noooooooooo, since it is Protestant making the error, I hear only crickets.


Even Cluny and Monk correct me and each other when we are wrong.
It's called fraternal correction.

But, you all rather let a person confuse thousands of people who made not know the Bible think there is a 5th Gospel written by Paul.

Shameless
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/23/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Jesus said "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law". Paul said "you are not under the Law". Which do you believe? How do you reconcile them?

The same way you interpret ALL writing - by looking at the context, e.g. to whom the writings were addressed. The Law was given by God to ISRAEL. Jesus came to preach to ISRAEL, who were under the Law. Paul was the apostle to the GENTILES, who were NOT under the Law. In some of his writings he clearly distinguishes between those who are under the Law, and those who are not. If you're Jewish, and live by the Covenant of Moses, you are required to keep all 629 commandments of the Law of Moses. If you're not Jewish, you don't have to.
---StrongAxe on 8/23/16


Good point Richard. I was talking about the existence of God, whereas Paul is talking about the existence of Jesus Christ, whose existence is shared by mouth.
---David on 8/23/16


Mark the Axe: You seem to be judging God in His justice regarding Job's kids. Don't! They were adults having a party. God knew their hearts - you don't. He also knew the hearts of all the pre-flood people, that they were only evil continually.

Now back to the blog question. Jesus said "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law". Paul said "you are not under the Law". Which do you believe? How do you reconcile them?



---Jerry6593 on 8/23/16




David : Ignorant of his existence ?

Faith comes from hearing ( Romans 10:17 } Now how can a person come to be saved If they never heard ? And many haven't over the generation , Law written in mans heart - {Hebrews 10:16 } And you can't be save by good works ! Another way for outsiders to get in , I can't find it ! God micro management ?
---RichardC on 8/22/16


//NO SUCH THING AS PAUL'S GOSPEL!// You disagree with the Bible.//

No I disagree with you CHANGING the Bible!

//Pauls gospel message was entirely of Christ--michael_e

No it isn't. Paul is constantly correcting people in his LETTERS. Asking for favors.

No red ink of Jesus in his letters.

Only 4 Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in that order.

Paul isn't after John, nor between Mark and Matthew or between Luke and John.
No Paul Gospel before Matthew.

It's okay to say you made a mistake.

I have many times on CN.
I made a mistake when I said miscounted

Strongaxe corrected me and I ADMITTED MY ERROR.

I didn't try to convince Strongaxe there was a new math system.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/22/16


//NO SUCH THING AS PAUL'S GOSPEL!//
You disagree with the Bible.
Pauls gospel message was entirely of Christ, and so Paul stands alone in calling it the gospel of Christ and Christs gospel, but that he also calls it my gospel can only be explained by the fact that Christ gave it first to Paul exclusively.
---michael_e on 8/22/16


StrongAxe, what is your beef with God?

Why don't you give God Almighty credit for KNOWING what HE is doing?

Read the last chapters of Job and pretend God's questions are for you.

Maybe you will let God be God and you be His child.

//1 Cor 15:1-6,Pauls gospel made no distinction between Jew or Gentile. Rom 2:16, 16:25, 2 Tim 2:8--michael_e

What part of those being LETTERS you don't understand? Epistles.
NO SUCH THING AS PAUL'S GOSPEL!

That like calling Chicago a State.
Just because it is in the state of Illinois it doesn't mean you can START calling it a State.

If you want people to take you serious, please play by the rules.

Only 4 Gospels in the Bible.
Don't add another one!
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/22/16


//Paul NEVER wrote a Gospel, or if he did, it has disappeared.//
I found it 1 Cor 15: 1-6
Pauls gospel made no distinction between Jew or Gentile.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began
2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel
Gospel means good news
---michael_e on 8/22/16


Yes, but think of the environment. What about people in most middle-east countries who search for God - and the only people around who seem to know anything about him are Muslim imams? ---StrongAxe

StrongAxe
I agree, but don't we have a similar situation to deal with? Look at the many church doctrines from which we choose. When there is only one truth, They can not all be the truth.

Everyone thinks they have the truth, even the Muslim, but how can we know, how can we be sure we will not be the one, who runs and hides when Christ comes for us?
---David on 8/22/16


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Michael, you are solely mistaken.

Gospels are about Jesus Christ Himself.

Paul NEVER wrote a Gospel, or if he did, it has disappeared.

The rest of the NT are actual LETTERS written by Luke (Acts written to Theophilus Acts 1:1) Paul, Peter, John and James.

Some are letters written by Paul to Timothy and Titus.

All of these books are described as Epistles

An epistle is a writing directed or sent to a person or group of people, usually an elegant and formal didactic letter. The epistle genre of letter-writing was common in ancient Egypt as part of the scribal-school writing curriculum. The letters in the New Testament from Apostles to Christians are usually referred to as epistles- Wikipedia
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/21/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Not funny, or classy.

I was not attempting to be funny, nor classy. It was reductio ad absurdum.

No "humane" anything when killing people.

Yet you extol PETA, who euthanizes 97% of their rescues. If butchering people just to get rid of htem isn't humane, how is butchering animals for the same reason? PETA kills most of their rescues - usually without even attempting to place them, yet they cry moral outrage at people eating tuna. Hypocrisy.

They are more innocent than Job's kids.

Which makes it totally OK for the most just being in the universe to allow their murder just on a bet?
---StrongAxe on 8/21/16


//They would probably have approved of the "humane" gas chambers in Dachau, who euthanized a similar percentage of the people they took in.//

Not funny, or classy.
No "humane" anything when killing people.
The Nazis used the gas chambers not to be humane, but to kill as MANY of the Jews as possible.

How is that humane?

//We want (but don't expect) justice from humans. We DO expect justice from God.---StrongAxe

Who is talking about justice? Jerry said 'Concerned' not Justice.

What kind of Justice are you going to take out on God?

Jerry is saying you don't display the same about of concern of Job's kids dying as unborn babies dying.

They are more innocent than Job's kids.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/21/16


Jesus sent Paul (John 13:20)
All four of the OT books of Matt, Mark, Luke and John contain the same gospel.
What they don't contain is the gospel of the cross for salvation. Christs death, burial, and resurrection do not occur until the final chapters.
Pauls gospel was not copied from Matthew thru John. It was revealed by the Lord (Gal 1:11-12).
The first thing in Pauls gospel is the last thing in the four gospels: the death and resurrection of Christ.
This seems right as the foundation of Pauls gospel is the cross itself (1 Cor 1:18, 2:2, 3:10). The very first point of Pauls gospel is not the genealogy of Jesus or Jesus relationship to prophecy, but his death for our sins.
---michael_e on 8/21/16


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Good points Strong Ax. But not all the points you mentioned are in the Quran. In some Muslim religions the Imans tell the people what the Quran says. They are supposed to follow the leaders and not read for themselves.

That is also the reason they kill other Muslims when the Quran says not to. Because the other groups aren't true Muslims so they can murder them.

The thrive on hate and despair.

The oppose love of others.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/21/16


David:

You wrote: Do you really believe there are folks ignorant of his existence?

Yes, but think of the environment. What about people in most middle-east countries who search for God - and the only people around who seem to know anything about him are Muslim imams? Their search for God will lead them directly into Islam, complete with all its good teachings, but also all its bad ones (e.g. violent hatred of all other religions, i.e. Jews are pigs, and unbelievers should be beheaded, etc. Even if individuals don't teach it, the Qur'an does, and questioning the Qur'an is a heresy punishable by death.)
---StrongAxe on 8/21/16


Many can reject God if they ignore His Son's testimony/words, "For I have not spoken of myself but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak".

Whose words will judge you, Paul's or Jesus'? "He that rejects me and does not receive my words has one who judges him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:42-50.

Paul's words are just fluff in the wind that scatter the sheep and blow them away from the simple truth.

---barb on 8/21/16


David - Many - reject - How can many reject, Even to this day in the world many have never heard of the Bible ? ---RichardC on 8/18/16

Richard
The bible did not bring me to God, my search for Truth, brought me to God. Do you think the "many" will get a pass because they were never told about God? Do you really believe there are folks ignorant of his existence? (Romans 1:18-32)
---David on 8/21/16


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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: PETA would be all over you.

Since PETA euthanizes around 97% of the animals they take in, that is small comfort to their victims. They would probably have approved of the "humane" gas chambers in Dachau, who euthanized a similar percentage of the people they took in.

Jerry6593 wrote: Nicole: Isn't it curious how the left-wing radicals are so concerned about Job's kids, but have no problem with the murder of millions of unborn children?

We want (but don't expect) justice from humans. We DO expect justice from God.
---StrongAxe on 8/20/16


//...but have no problem with the murder of millions of unborn children? ---Jerry6593 on 8/20/16

Not only that, but in the manner these children are being killed.

You couldn't kill a puppy in the same manner these children are being killed.

PETA would be all over you.

And some States would put you in jail.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/20/16


Nicole: Isn't it curious how the left-wing radicals are so concerned about Job's kids, but have no problem with the murder of millions of unborn children?


---Jerry6593 on 8/20/16


//God is ALWAYS FAIR-Me Not to those children.---StrongAxe6

God gives life. He created those children and LOVES them more than you.

Can you give God the benefit of doubt that He wasn't taking their lives lightly?

Luke 11:1-13
What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? So if YOU who are EVIL know how to give good gifts to your children, how much MORE will your FATHER in HEAVEN give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!

Job's first set of children were sinning a lot and God called them home. At least Job was making offering for them as evident in Job 1:5

BTW, this proves one can pray for another to take away their sins.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/19/16


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Nicole_Lacey:

No bet, God was showing satan that Job will never deny Him no matter what.

Right. Satan believed Job would cave in, God believed he wouldn't. So they had a little test to "see what would happen".

Note that God told satan NOT to touch Job and his wife.

His children died because God ALLOWED Satan to kill them to prove a point. How would you like it if your life was destroyed (with no compensation) for that same reason?

Why else give this detail below? To let you and I know that God is ALWAYS FAIR:

Not to those children.
---StrongAxe on 8/19/16


Job got everything he lost back and more -...of little comfort to his children that were killed as part of the bet.---StrongAxe

You had me until up to this point.

No bet, God was showing satan that Job will never deny Him no matter what.

Note that God told satan NOT to touch Job and his wife.
Maybe because those two seems to be blameless, but NOT his children.

Why else give this detail below? To let you and I know that God is ALWAYS FAIR:

Job 1:5
when each feast had run it's course, Job would send for them and SANCTIFY them, rising early and offering holocausts for every one of them. For Job said, "it may be that my sons have sinned and BLASPHEMED God in their hearts." This Job did HABITUALLY.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/19/16


Stronge Axe :

We are far from the first that that have had this discussion , It puzzles me as well as you , How can something perfect want to or would make something imperfect ? I don't know the answer !

David - Many - reject - How can many reject, Even to this day in the world many have never heard of the Bible ? I do believe in predestination , but not calvinist , I know this opens a on going can of worms , Man can't save him self !


Isaiah - 55:8
---RichardC on 8/18/16


...teachings of Paul seem to conflict with those of Jesus, whose side are you on?
---Jerry6593 on 8/10/16

They conflict because of the unnecessary and unfortunate word "gentile". Which was never a word in Christ's time...being introduced by the "Latin vulgate" in the early corrupted church.
Paul references the Old Testament over 260 times and is speaking of and too the "nations/ethnos" of Israel, the divorced ten families/sons of Israel and Judah/Levi at other times.
Same "Lost Sheep" that Christ sought.

Note the New Covenant context of two separate but yet same family groups: Jer_31:31 Behold,...I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
---trav on 8/18/16


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Also, your assertion that the Gentiles are excluded from the law is refuted by Christ's accusing the Samaritan woman of adultery, ...br>---Jerry6593 on 8/14/16

Only Israel was given GOD's laws.
Samaritan describes where she was from or resided, not her ethnicity.
The word "gentile" a Latin Vulgate, mistranslated, misused, misunderstood word is better understood as "nations or ethnos". In a book written to about and for Israel most of the time it is speaking of or too them. Usually the divorced ten family's of House of Israel.
Jer_3:8 ...Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
---trav on 8/18/16


RichardC:

You wrote: To show the Greatness of God

Who was he showing it to? Who did he NEED to show it to? A truly omnipotent being doesn't need to prove anything to anyone. A truly omniscient being doesn't need to test anyone's faith either - he already knows it beforehand. Saying "I can create a pole so high you can't possibly jump over it", and then blaming people for not jumping over it, and then destroying them for it, hardly seems fair, does it?

Note that after Abraham took Isaac to be sacrificed, he never spoke to God again.

Also, even after God+Satan's little wager, Job got everything he lost back and more - but that was of little comfort to his children that were killed as part of the bet.
---StrongAxe on 8/17/16


Why create evil at all ?

Good question.
Evil was created so God could test mankind. Jesus said, if God wanted to he could have created children from stone. But he didn't, why?

God can create us, but he can not make us love him. And that all God really wants, children who love him. God created the Angels in heaven as well, but 1/3 turned against him and fought against him along side of Satan.

That's what it's all about folks, loving the God who created you, and the same God who provides you with everything you need.(Romans 1:18-32).

Then God sends us his likeness in his Son, and still many reject his Love. Really sad, If only we could love him back, just half as much as he loves us. Think about it.
---David on 8/17/16


Jerry, may I just say that if Paul's teachings contradict Christ's teachings then there is a error in interpretation.

I believe that the author of all scripture is the Holy Ghost.

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)

2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

If the scriptures are not the inspired word of God why bother reading, studying, or believing???
---trey on 8/17/16


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Strong Axe : Doesn't necessarily mean to will.

NO - Know's the end from the beginning

Tree of Knowledge Why ? Why create evil at all ? - Isaiah 45:7

There was a comedian call Lenny Bruce When it came to God and man he use to say : How can you not blame the manufacturer , Know some will say that Blaspheme God, he was making fun of it But it is Honest Question ,

Answer , To show the Greatness of God
---RichardC on 8/16/16


RichardC:

That God CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean he WILL. He could have stopped the Fall by warning Adam about the Serpent, or putting a guard near the Tree of Knowledge, but he didn't do either until AFTER it was too late. He could have sent Jesus immediately after, but waited several millenia while millions perished, and sent the flood first to wipe out almost all life. He could end starvation, war, and disease right now, but chooses not to, leaving us to our own devices, blaming us for breaking rules he himself created (and was free to change at will), and that he KNOWS IN ADVANCE we are incapable of keeping.
---StrongAxe on 8/16/16


Barb - Only applies to the book of Revelation ?

I think this is crazy, So some of the word are from God others not ? Who can tell ! That make the whole book Null , Words like Rev. 22:18 are in Deuteronomy Too . Book of Job - Null

God can number all the hairs on every human head [ matthew 10:30 } , But can't write a book for the human race ?

Jeremiah 30:2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel , saying Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book,

Now could God be using Paul and others as a narrative or protagonist and God the omniscience - I think So

This would be in line with Timothy 3:16
---RichardC on 8/15/16


No one can ever win this argument--barb

Barb
Sadly, you are right. It's an argument of a single writer, taken out of the context of which it was written. No witnesses needed, not even the witness of Jesus Christ.

I do not feel about Paul as you do, but I do share in your frustration, as to how people have created doctrines from a few lines of his epistles. Doctrines which undermine the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As to proving Paul was Christ's apostle, I can not, when you do not allow any scripture which mentions him by name. Though there is a parable written about him.
---David on 8/16/16


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MarkAxe: "There is no reason why you should need to know any of these things."

Yes there is. You claim that the Ten Commandments don't apply to you, but I would bet that your mystery denomination would disagree, making you a hypocrite. It appears that you are ashamed of your affiliation.

I have made my SDA affiliation well known on CN, and have taken much heat for it. But, since I think it best reflects the truth of the Bible, I am not ashamed of it. Besides, Peter says:

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to GIVE AN ANSWER to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


---Jerry6593 on 8/16/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: I am forced to rely on my memory of your past posts, and if I'm wrong, it's your fault.

My denomination is my business, just like my birthday, social security number, and ATM PIN. There is no reason why you should need to know any of these things.

As I recall, you are a Presbyterian...

Your recollection is in error, since I have never once claimed affiliation with the Presbyterian church, nor any other denomination on these blogs. I DID say that I was raised Catholic, and I had a brief encounter with Jehovah's Witnesses for about a year (40 years ago), until I realized their theology was just as flawed as every other group they chastised.
---StrongAxe on 8/15/16


So this blog is just another argument about what Paul meant when he said .... whatever he said. No one can ever win this argument and all you have done is proved my point that Paul's goal was to be all things to all men.

Only those who make Jesus' words their standard for truth will find the road that leads to eternal life. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. One Way, One Truth, One Life. You either believe in His Words or you don't.
---barb on 8/15/16


MarkA: You still don't seem to understand that Paul uses the term "Law" in a variety of ways (determined by context), and that you are not at liberty to assign ritual ceremonial law as pertaining to the Ten Commandments.

Since you refuse to answer my repeated questions regarding your denominational affiliation, I am forced to rely on my memory of your past posts, and if I'm wrong, it's your fault. As I recall, you are a Presbyterian, and the official position of that Church (like that of Cluny's Orthodox Church) is that the Ten Commandments are indeed binding on Christians. So how did you stray into antinomianism?



---Jerry6593 on 8/15/16


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StrongAx Romans is written to those in Rome for all.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul says this before vs. 31. So are you saying this is not true? But if this is true then verse 31 which says the law is established is also true. Also we are brought to the Christ by the law. For it is the law that shows us we are sinners.

We are under the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Read Ephesians 2
---Samuelbb7 on 8/14/16


Without Paul, the last testimony from the church we see is the church in the temple Acts 2-5. Led by Peter.
Jesus instructed the apostles to stay in Jerusalem until they received the word, then go to Judea, and Samaria, and so on. Acts 8 the Jerusalem church was scattered except the apostles (Acts 8:1).
Following Peter the message we teach repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the preaching of the cross is it was murder (Acts 2:17, 38, and Acts 5:30).
We would sell all we have and have all things in common (Luke 12:33, Acts 2:45, Acts 4:34).
We wouldn't understand the cross (Luke 18:34). You wouldn't go in a Gentiles house who wasn't a devout observer of the law (Acts 10:28).
---michael_e on 8/14/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes - the law STILL exists and is in force - for those who are under it, i.e. Jews. We are not under the Law of Moses, and not part of that covenant, so we are not under that law.

Also, your assertion that the Gentiles are excluded from the law is refuted by Christ's accusing the Samaritan woman of adultery, and the fact that the Gentiles also went to the synagogue on Sabbath to hear Paul.

Gentiles living in Israel were also under the law. We are not living in Israel.

Yet his NOT grabbing stones and stoning her to death on the spot - would not that also be a violation of the law then?
---StrongAxe on 8/14/16


Mark the Axe: "He did not come to change that. Paul, on the other hand, spoke to gentiles, who were NOT under the Law, and he saw no reason to put them under an impossible burden that was not theirs to begin with."

That's your opinion, but it is not substantiated by scripture. Paul said:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Also, your assertion that the Gentiles are excluded from the law is refuted by Christ's accusing the Samaritan woman of adultery, and the fact that the Gentiles also went to the synagogue on Sabbath to hear Paul.


---Jerry6593 on 8/14/16


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David, why would a scholar who does not believe in God care anything about 2nd Peter?--barb

Barb
My point is that Scholars must study the bible to obtain their information. Those teachers chosen by God, are taught by Gods Holy Spirit. Therefore, I would not rely to heavily on scholars, for they are the teachings of men.


Jesus came to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", so he was speaking to Jews who were already under the covenant of Moses, and under the Law.
---StrongAxe


Exactly!!!
Paul was dealing with the old and new covenants in his epistles. The one brought by Moses, he called "The Law". The one brought by Christ, he calls "Grace". (John 1:17)
---David on 8/14/16


David, why would a scholar who does not believe in God care anything about 2nd Peter? I was speaking of those who have studied and continue to study the bible and are not atheists or geniuses. Intelligence has nothing to do with spiritual wisdom.

I suppose the question comes down to this, whose words are we building our houses on? The words of Paul or the words of Jesus. "Therefore whosoever hears these words of mine and does them I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon a rock." "And every man that hears these words of mine and does not do them, I will liken him unto a foolish man who built his house upon the sand"...and the rains came down.
---barb on 8/13/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Mat 5:17,18 ... vs. Rom 6:14 ...

This is easily resolved by considering the audience involved. Jesus came to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", so he was speaking to Jews who were already under the covenant of Moses, and under the Law. He did not come to change that. Paul, on the other hand, spoke to gentiles, who were NOT under the Law, and he saw no reason to put them under an impossible burden that was not theirs to begin with.
---StrongAxe on 8/13/16


When the teachings of Paul seem to conflict with those of Jesus, whose side are you on?-Jerry

It seems Catholics and Orthodox are on the side of Jesus.

I have seen many/Protestants running PAST the Gospels, or BEFORE the Gospels to knock down the teachings of Jesus in order to prove their own opinion/postings
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/13/16


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Paul was a very intelligent pharisee, and in many of his writings, he apparently thinks that the rest of us are as well. Even Peter said of his writings:

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I think that Paul is a true Apostle of Christ, and that most of the apparent conflicts come from a naive interpretation of his writings. For example, his use of the word "law" can have any of several meanings - from the Torah to the Levitical sacrificial system - to the Ten Commandments - even a principle.



---Jerry6593 on 8/13/16


When teachings ssem to conflict it is a matter of understanding.
Jn 17 all.
Jesus speaks of disciples/apostles.
They are given by the Father, have been kept, received Jesus words, Jesus sent them into the world, testimony...for those who also will believe. We know that what Jesus prayed is fulfilled, as all he did was the will of the Father, and we know that the Father not only hears, but has given the petitions according to His will...1 jn 5:14,15
Concerning the apostles, 1 jn 5:18
The Lord does not fail
There can be no conflict in truth, simply in understanding or interpretation.
---chria9396 on 8/13/16


// Their teachings are in agreement with each other.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/11/16 //

I agree, but there are those who cause them to disagree by false interpretation. For example:

Mat 5:17,18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: ... one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law

vs.

Rom 6:14 ... for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Or, the failure to correctly define "end" as "goal" rather than "terminus" in:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

It is my observation that most Christians choose Paul's "apparent" stance over Jesus'.



---Jerry6593 on 8/13/16


RichardC, God never promised us a book/bible with nothing but the truth in it. Read the parable about the wheat and tares which grow together until harvest time.

The book of Revelation was written in scroll form as a separate book as were all the books included in the bible today. I believe that Rev. 22:18-19 only applies to the book of Revelation as there was no bible back then as we know it now.

It was men who decided what books would go into the bible and which books were gnostic. God has preserved His Words thru His prophets in the old testament and His Son's words are preserved by His eyewitness disciples in the New Testament. These are my beliefs and you must decide for yourself what is true and what is not.
---barb on 8/13/16


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Many scholars will tell you that Peter was not the writer of 2nd Peter --barb on 8/12/16

Barb
Stephen Hawking is also a scholar, and by many, thought to be the smartest man on earth, But he doesnt believe in the existence of God.

Something to consider when using a scholar as a source of wisdom.
---David on 8/13/16


Barb - How do I know that the the eye witness are accurate ?

Ok - If the Words of the Bible are written By man then they could be at some Fault ! If divinely given there Not ! Word of God and Man ? That goes against Timothy 3:16

Revelation 22:18 For I Testify unto every man that heareth words and prophecy of this book , If any man shall add unto these things , God shall add unto the plagues that are written in this book,
Revelation 22:19 - And if any man take away from the words of this Book of this prophecy , God shall take away his part out of the book of life, , and out of the holy city , and from the thing which are written in,
---RichardC on 8/12/16


Barb - Apostles of Jesus did not name themselves

Barb Sorry, but wrong - Peter 1,1

Not trying to take a shot, but it there



---RichardC on 8/12/16


David, I'm not angry but I am sorry if I came across that way. I'll try to sound more cheerful and pleasant.

Did Peter, John or any of the other disciples ever call Paul an apostle? I don't know why none of them confronted Paul but John had a lot to say about those who had gone out from them. 1st John 2. Many scholars will tell you that Peter was not the writer of 2nd Peter but that is something you will have to decide for yourself.

Thanks for reading this and I hope it is of use to you.




---barb on 8/12/16


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Paul says "follow me as I follow Christ"
Out of all the writers of scripture, Paul glories more in Jesus Christ than them all (Gal 6:14) He knew more about Jesus Christ not because of intellect, but because of the mystery information revealed to him by the Lord (Gal 1:11-12, Rom 16:25).
It was his privilege to fulfill the word of God with a message no one before him knew (Col 1:25-26).
Jesus made Paul the apostle and the pattern of salvation to us that hereafter believe (1 Tim 1:16).
Paul doesn't elevate himself above Jesus Christ when he bows to him and calls him preeminent (Eph 3:14, Col 1:18).
Following Pauls pattern and instructions requires glorifying God by Jesus Christ (Rom 16:27, Phil 2:11).
---michael_e on 8/12/16


Barb
I understand your anger, and I would really like you to think about what I am going ask you. If Paul is not a disciple of Jesus Christ, and a false teacher, Why didn't Peter call him out and make us aware of him?
---David on 8/12/16


RichardC, how do I know that the eyewitness writings are accurate? I know because Jesus said this to His disciples, "But the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring All Things to Your Remembrance whatsoever I Have Said unto you." John 14:26, John 15:27.

The apostles of Jesus did not name themselves in their gospels nor did they call attention to themselves by proclaiming over and over again to be apostles but from the above verse we can know that God has preserved the Words of His Son thru them. They gave all the glory to God and it was more important to them that His Word was recorded then that they received any special recognition.
---barb on 8/12/16


Their teachings are in agreement with each other.
---Samuelbb7 on 8/11/16


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Hebrews 4:12 For the words of God is quicker and powerful , and sharper than any two-edged sword , piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit , and of the joints and marrow , and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart,

{ OK - Out of the 66 book of the bible Jesus Christ words are written by his Apostles , Old testament his prophets , Now IF you think there contradiction
there ? , Then how can you say what there writing about Christ is accurate ? Now if it is divinely given that something else ! From your stand point it would have to be that Christ never wrote anything , He Wasn't a author ! ! Then how can it be trusted at All ! }
---RichardC on 8/11/16


Jesus never described Paul as a chosen vessel. Jesus never mentions Paul's name, ever. Luke who was a follower and convert of Paul is the one who wrote that description. You are putting words into the Son of God's mouth.

No conflict? Paul teaches both a no works doctrine and a works doctrine. He wanted, as he said to be all things to all men and he has done an excellent job of it. Romans 2:13, Romans 3:20. Most people cannot see through Paul because they are blind and have shut up their eyes to the truth. They see only what they want to see. Jesus said if the blind lead the blind then both will fall into the pit.
---barb on 8/12/16


There are no conflicts between the teachings of Jesus or Paul, but there are many conflicts in the way men teach Christs Gospels and Pauls epistles.

For example, according to mans "no works" doctrine, Paul supposedly taught works has nothing to do with ones salvation, when Jesus taught quite the opposite in his (Matthew 25: 33-46) parable.

Ironically, Paul also refuted this foolishness in (Romans 2:5-7).
---David on 8/11/16


Jeremiah 36:4 - Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah , and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord, Which he had spoken unto him , union a roll of a book,

Book of Matthew Author : Matthew

Book of Mark Author : Mark

And So on !


---RichardC on 8/11/16


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I follow Jesus, not Paul
This is a common response from those who fear making too much of Paul diminishes the Lord.
Paul isn't Christ, but Christ sent Paul.
1 Tim 1:16 "..in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him.." The Lord describes Paul as his chosen vessel" (Acts 9:15).
Paul was a minister of the Lord in preaching the dispensation of the grace of God and to reveal the mystery of Christ and his church (Eph 3:1-2, Col 1:25-27).
When they heard Paul, they were hearing Gods words.
1 Thess 2:13 when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
---michael_e on 8/11/16


I find it best to stick with the testimony of Jesus at all times so I will not be led astray by false teachers. I follow His words and teachings only.

Did Jesus point out the false apostles to the Ephesians? No. The Ephesians tested them and found them to be liars. Rev 2:2. Did Jesus allow those false apostles to walk among His people? Yes, but He had given them ample warning ahead of time so that they would not be deceived. Matt 7:15, Matt 24:4-5.

I believe Jesus when He prayed to His Father "I have glorified you on earth, I have finished the work which you gave me to do." His testimony is complete and does not need input from those who came along later nor should anything ever be taken away from His message.
---barb on 8/11/16


2 Timothy 3:16 - ALL scripture is given by Inspiration of God , And is Profitable for Doctrine , for Reproof for Correction , for the Instruction of righteousness,

2 Peter 1:21 - FOR the prophecy came not in old times by the will of man : but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost ,

---RichardC on 8/11/16


Properly understood, there is no conflict.

Good idea, STrongAxe.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/11/16


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Pick and choose Bible verses, but 1 Corinthians 3:3-5 says ...when one says, I follow Paul, and another, I follow Apollos, are you not mere human beings? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe."

Again, John 5:33-35 You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. Not that I accept human testimony, but I mention it that you may be saved. John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.
---mike4879 on 8/10/16


Jerry your question is purely academic because both Paul and Jesus preached the same gospel, "the gospel of God". If there seems to be a contradiction, It is due to a lack of understanding on the part of the reader. Paul himself stated boldly "God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God." Father would not have allowed him, as an apostle, to make and document a claim that misrepresented Him or His Son to His called and chosen.
---joseph on 8/10/16


JESUS TAUGHT PAUL the manifold wisdom of God (Gal 1:1, 11, Eph 3:10). His epistles contain instructions from God.
While most of the Bible was written specifically to the nation of Israel, the Lord gave Paul instructions specifically for Gentiles (Eph 3:1). He was titled the apostle of the Gentiles (Rom 11:13). This is Your apostle.
The Lord revealed the mystery of himself to Paul after the red letters and after Pentecost. Paul was given the preaching of the cross and the gospel of the grace of God as a pattern for our salvation (1 Tim 1:15-16).
Contextual guidelines lead you to one conclusion. Choose the only place youll find the teaching of Christ to Gentiles according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25).
---michael_e on 8/10/16


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