ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Explain The Classic Creeds

I've met people who object to the classic Creeds, especially the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed. What propositions in them do you find false and why?

Join Our Christian Chat and Visit Our Apostles Creed
 ---Cluny on 8/14/16
     Helpful Blog Vote (2)

Post a New Blog



Peter declared the foundation of the Church is Jesus.

1Peter 2:4-8 ...Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
So believe the words of Peter.Ephesians 2:20-22
---Samuelbb7 on 9/4/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Jesus allowed Peter to STATE the TERMS of who can replace Judas.

Yes. PETER had that authority. NOBODY ELSE did.

//Yet also note that Peter was given certain authority, yet neither Judas, nor his replacement, nor the other 10 were---StrongAxe on 9/4/16

EXACTLY!

Because ONLY Peter has the keys! Not the other 11. Matthew 16:19

Yet you claim that a whole slew of others also had the keys. Were they better than the other 11 apostles?
---StrongAxe on 9/4/16


//That is precisely my point - it was Peter himself, not someone else that Peter delegated.//

Not so fast! Read your Bible.

Where did Peter get the idea to REPLACE Judas?

Peter quotes the Old Testament in the book of Psalms. Acts 1:20

//By casting lots, and letting God determine the outcome//

This is the reason why One prays.

But, God DIDN'T pick the 2 men to pray OVER.

Jesus allowed Peter to STATE the TERMS of who can replace Judas.

//Yet also note that Peter was given certain authority, yet neither Judas, nor his replacement, nor the other 10 were---StrongAxe on 9/4/16

EXACTLY!

Because ONLY Peter has the keys! Not the other 11. Matthew 16:19
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/4/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: NOTE who cited the qualifications: PETER!

That is precisely my point - it was Peter himself, not someone else that Peter delegated.

But, through men. Jesus was in Heaven.

By casting lots, and letting God determine the outcome.

No where in the Bible does it states Jesus TOLD them do to replace Judas, but THEY DID REPLACE HIM.

Yet also note that Peter was given certain authority, yet neither Judas, nor his replacement, nor the other 10 were.
---StrongAxe on 9/4/16


//15-20 talk about the death of Judas.//

V20 'May another take his OFFICE.'

Peter wasn't GOSSIPING on Judas.
It to REPLACE Judas.

//fulfilled the qualifications of witnesses//

V26..counted with the ELEVEN Apostles.

You do know that Jesus had 72 Disciples?

NOTE who cited the qualifications: PETER!
Matthew 16:19

//choice was not made by the disciples, but left to God himself to make.---StrongAxe

But, through men. Jesus was in Heaven.

As we do TODAY.
Choose CERTAIN people to pray over to God for God to tell them WHO shall take the office of the last person who died.

No where in the Bible does it states Jesus TOLD them do to replace Judas, but THEY DID REPLACE HIM.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/3/16




Nicole_Lacey:

Exactly. Just because I have a driver's license, that doesn't give me the authority to give the same authority to others.

Where does the Bible say the authority can be delegated?

Acts 1:15-26

How so? 15-20 talk about the death of Judas. The rest talks about them picking a substitute witness. Note that this had to be someone who was with them all the time, so his authority didn't come from the fact that the disciples just delegated it to them - it was because they ALREADY fulfilled the qualifications of witnesses (which, of course, would be impossible for anyone born after 33 AD). Further, the choice was not made by the disciples, but left to God himself to make.
---StrongAxe on 9/3/16


The Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed are kind. Old books of worship have The Athanasian Creed and the Anathemas Creed. These creeds condemn you to hell if you do not believe IN FULL the doctrine of the Trinity and do not think Christ as EQUAL TO THE FATHER when scripture very plainly makes it clear that the Father is GREATER than the Son. I do not like the damning creeds that in short, you do not believe the way I see it, you are going to Hell. I have little problem with the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. A teacher pointed out that the creed says that Christ descended into Hell while the Bible says, "Today you will be with me in Paradise". So creeds aren't perfect. 1 Tim 4:6 "Watch your life and doctrine closely."
---mike4789 on 9/2/16


//authority explicitly includes the authority to delegate, but in general, it does not.
If the state gives you a license to drive a car, you can't just tell your son, "I'm allowed to drive, and I give that authority to you"//

No but the States CAN GIVE authority to people who are QUALIFIED to drive.

Not EVERYONE can get a license just because they want one.

//Jesus explicitly gave authority to Peter. The delegation of that authority to others is merely inferred.---StrongAxe on 8/30/16

The Bible is clear that Jesus authority given to the Disciples can be passed to another man to be a Disciple after Jesus ascends into Heaven

Acts 1:15-26

Your Scripture proof
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/2/16


StrongAxe said, "The gift of the Holy Spirit was passed on by the laying on of hands, but the specific gifts of the spirit were not passed on directly that way ...The one on whom the hands were laid did not necessarily receive the same gift as the one who was laying on hands - i.e. the gifts themselves were given directly by God."

When a bishop is ordained (by the laying on of hands of several bishops) The Church passes on the authority to act in her name. When a bishop ordains a priest or deacon, that bishop is, by the laying on of hands, by the authority of the Church, delegating the priest or deacon to act in his name for very specific tasks. But the bishop has the FULL authority of the Church.
---Monk_Brendan on 9/2/16


Cluny:

Don't we say, "You are authorized to drive on the road"? Regardless, being elected President DOES convey authority, yet HE is not allowed to delegate it.


Monk_Brendan:

The gift of the Holy Spirit was passed on by the laying on of hands, but the specific gifts of the spirit were not passed on directly that way (e.g. prophets laying hands on prophets, healers laying hands on healers, etc.). The one on whom the hands were laid did not necessarily receive the same gift as the one who was laying on hands - i.e. the gifts themselves were given directly by God.
---StrongAxe on 9/1/16




StrongAxe, the driver's license manuals of every state in the Union do NOT call driving an "authority" granted by the state, but a PRIVILEGE (not even a "right") conferred by the State.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/31/16


StrongAxe said, "I meant inheritance of authority, not genetic inheritance. Jesus explicitly gave authority to Peter. The delegation of that authority to others is merely inferred."

Not so! 1Tim 4:14 says, Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery

So the authority resides in the Church, until such time as it delegates authority to a Bishop, Presbyter or Deacon by the laying on of hands

And this does not come automatically. It comes after prayer, after studying the character of the one to be ordained, etc.

And it comes with the consensus of the neighboring parishes or dioceses.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/31/16


Nicole_Lacey:

The authority to do a thing does not automatically include the authority to delegate that authority to others. Sometimes, authority explicitly includes the authority to delegate, but in general, it does not.

If the state gives you a license to drive a car, you can't just tell your son, "I'm allowed to drive, and I give that authority to you". The President cannot authorize his wife to veto bills or command the armed forces.



Monk_Brendan:

I was trying to be brief. I meant inheritance of authority, not genetic inheritance. Jesus explicitly gave authority to Peter. The delegation of that authority to others is merely inferred.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/16


Jesus gave His Disciples His Authority to cast out demons.

Thus His Disciples pass that Authority to their disciples.

Not anyone can claim that authority.

Even the demons know that:

Acts 19:13-16 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out. Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you? Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/30/16


StrongAxe said, "Yes. These are gifts given to individuals by God, not an authority given to one person and passed down by inheritance in perpetuity."

None of the gifts or authorities are passed down through inheritance. Rather, the Church grants the authority to certain persons, through the laying on of hands to do what is necessary.

When Jesus founded the Church "...thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." He gave the authority to the Church, in the company of the Apostles, especially Peter
---Monk_Brendan on 8/30/16


StrongAxe said, "I wasn't speaking of the authority that Jesus gave to his church in general, but rather to special authorities granted to certain individuals but not others."

But ALL of those authorities come from God through His Church. Not a single one is inherited, or passed down father to son (yes, I know that in Russia and Greece that does happen from time to time but still the Bishop ordains the son to fill his father's office.)
---Monk_Brendan on 8/30/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Travel Packages


Cluny, I agree with your responses to StrongAxe:

\\authority that Jesus gave to his church in general, but rather to special authorities granted to certain individuals but not others.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/16\\

St. Paul himself talks about different gifts and authority that some people have and some don't.---Cluny on 8/29/16

I will also add:

Matthew 13:11-13
He replied, The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see, though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/29/16


Cluny:

You wrote: St. Paul himself talks about different gifts and authority that some people have and some don't.

Yes. These are gifts given to individuals by God, not an authority given to one person and passed down by inheritance in perpetuity.
---StrongAxe on 8/30/16


\\I wasn't speaking of the authority that Jesus gave to his church in general, but rather to special authorities granted to certain individuals but not others.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/16\\

You know better than that, StrongAxe. Why are you being so contrarian?

St. Paul himself talks about different gifts and authority that some people have and some don't.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/29/16


//a devotion to a particular person, say Bob the Plumber (BTP) and you ask him to restore your missing ear, and it grows back, then that miracle is presented to the committee investigating BTP, then, after testing to make sure the ear wasn't grafted on by plastic surgery, etc. that will be counted as a miracle for Bob.

If, at the same time you are also asking Fulton Sheen for prayer, and Martha the Baker, and so on, the the committee will have to throw that miracle out.---Monk

EXACTLY! THANKS

Miracle is out because the committee DOESN'T KNOW by whom the miracle was granted by God. Bob the plumber or Fulton Sheen or by Martha the Baker?

The person should have only asked ONE person to ASK God to restore his missing ear.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/29/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Credit Repair


\\So allow me to ask you this: "Where does the Bible use the word "creed"?
\\

"Creed" is from the Latin word CREDO, itself a translation of the Greek word PISTEVO, both meaning "I believe."

Several times in the NT, you find the words "I believe," therefore you find the word "creed".

As far as the "keys of the Kingdom," Dad used to say they were the sacraments. Each one is concerned with binding and loosening.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/29/16


Monk_Brendan:

You wrote: To keep the gates of hell from prevailing against the Church, of course. And though some people may disagree, that same universal Church has kept hell from prevailing to this date, and they won't stop now.

I wasn't speaking of the authority that Jesus gave to his church in general, but rather to special authorities granted to certain individuals but not others.
---StrongAxe on 8/29/16


Cluny, you wrote in another blog: "Where does the Bible use the phrase "quiet time with God"?"

So allow me to ask you this: "Where does the Bible use the word "creed"?

Why complicate the words of God when there is only the ultimate commandment "love" (as in the verb form) the way God taught us. Simple, eh? Not quite. Everyone know the definition of the word, but it is difficult to do.
---Steveng on 8/28/16


StrongAxe said, "I was not speaking about the Infallibility Doctrine, but rather, the theory that Peter had the Keys of the Kingdom, and passed them down. Just what are the limits of those keys?"

To keep the gates of hell from prevailing against the Church, of course. And though some people may disagree, that same universal Church has kept hell from prevailing to this date, and they won't stop now.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/28/16


Shop For Christian Gifts & Jewelry


Nicole Lacey said, "You can't ask (via intercessory prayer for a miracle) to see if 2 different persons..."

Let me try to rephrase, as I think I know what she's trying to say (and if I'm wrong, Nicole, please forgive me.)

If you have a devotion to a particular person, say Bob the Plumber (BTP), and you ask him to restore your missing ear, and it grows back, then that miracle is presented to the committee investigating BTP, then, after testing to make sure the ear wasn't grafted on by plastic surgery, etc. that will be counted as a miracle for Bob.

If, at the same time you are also asking Fulton Sheen for prayer, and Martha the Baker, and so on, the the committee will have to throw that miracle out.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/28/16


//I am explaining the sainthood process-ME

Wrong choice of words.

It should be say who is in Heaven process thus a Saint.

You can't ask (via intercessory prayer for a miracle) to see if 2 different persons
(We don't ALREADY know is in Heaven like Mary and Joseph)
are in Heaven at the same. time.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/28/16


StrongAxe said, "Why don't people pray to God directly, rather than going through some middleman? ... I never understood this."

Axe, I know you appreciated when we were praying for you while you were fighting that deadly disease. We prayed to God, but we also asked Virgin Mary and quite a few saints for their intercessory prayers for your healing. All of the saints pray to God. God grants the miracle. You are healed (or at least a lot better, right?).

Was it by my prayers that you were healed? No! It was God that gave the healing, by guiding the hands and understanding of the doctors, nurses, and all your caretakers so that you could get well.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/28/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: I am explaining the sainthood process. If one person seeks a intercessory miracle from God via 2 people, the Vatican doesn't know which one obtained the miracle, thus everything is out.

Maybe God just intervened directly, as ultimately God is the only person one should be praying to, no? So perhaps neither one of them "obtained" the miracle (just the same as if the person seeks a miracle via only 1 person).

Why don't people pray to God directly, rather than going through some middleman? Is God so busy that an intermediary will obtain more reliable results? I never understood this.
---StrongAxe on 8/27/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Products


Monk, back to ours posts

//God tell us who's in Heaven by Miracles.---Nicole

//attributed to a Christian saint and those attributed to a Hindu mystic?---StrongAxe

//a tight progress. If any prayers are to said even 2 persons, both are threw out. Even if Christians.
Remember where the term 'devil's advocate' came from these processes.--Nicole

//Two persons - like, say, Jesus and Mary?---StrongAxe

//We already KNOW they are in Heaven.
Two persons made 'Servants of God.' like Pope Paul VI and Rose Hawthorne.---Nicole

I am explaining the sainthood process. If one person seeks a intercessory miracle from God via 2 people, the Vatican doesn't know which one obtained the miracle, thus everything is out.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/27/16


Nicole Lacy said, "Because there is a tight progress. If any prayers are to said even 2 persons, both are threw out. Even if both are Christians."

I am sorry, Nicole, but I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. Are you saying that if someone asks more than Jesus to help, that help won't come? Or are you saying that if you ask people to pray for you, those prayers are excluded?
---Monk_Brendan on 8/27/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Where in the Bible states we CAN'T know who is in Heaven?

Matthew 13, the wheat and tares proverb - up to verse 30:
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He doesn't say anyone gets a early sneak peak at which are wheat and which are tares. That separation is not made until AFTER the harvest.


Monk_Brendan:

I was not speaking about the Infallibility Doctrine, but rather, the theory that Peter had the Keys of the Kingdom, and passed them down. Just what are the limits of those keys?
---StrongAxe on 8/27/16


//What does Mark 12:13 have to do with anything?//

Sorry, cited the wrong chapter
Mark 13:12 But as for that day or hour,..nor the Son, but only the Father

/So HOW can the Pope have the power that Jesus doesn't have?-Me

//Jesus said ANYTHING Peter loosed or bound in heaven was also done so on earth. How do you reconcile these?//

Anything as far as the Authority given to Jesus.

Mark 13:12 is PROOF that Jesus doesn't have the SAME authority as the Father, so how can the Pope?

BTW the Pope can't read the heart of someone so how can he know his soul has mortal sin to go to hell?

//Jesus he SPECIFICALLY told us to wait for.---StrongAxe

Where in the Bible states we CAN'T know who is in Heaven?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/26/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Divorce


StrongAxe said, "Then the Pope has the power to damn people to hell, which means God can delegate that power."

No, the Pope does not have that power. The Pope's power is very limited. He can only speak infallibly under certain very specific circumstances. He has no army divisions, no navy, no Marines. The only thing he can do is speak, and the press and Protestants usually cut him apart for that. Oh, and the sedevacantists too
---Monk_Brendan on 8/26/16


Nicole_Lacey:

What does Mark 12:13 have to do with anything? It says how many Gods there are, not who he can delegate his power to.

So HOW can the Pope have the power that Jesus doesn't have?

Jesus said ANYTHING Peter loosed or bound in heaven was also done so on earth. How do you reconcile these?

We already KNOW they are in Heaven.

That doesn't change the fact that you said anyone who calls on two people is AUTOMATICALLY excluded.

Yet, He tells us presumptuous children anyway. Isn't HE GREAT?

I wouldn't presume to demand something from Jesus he SPECIFICALLY told us to wait for.
He wouldn't go against something he said. Maybe your interpretation of the sign is in error?
---StrongAxe on 8/26/16


//Then the Pope has the power to damn people to hell, which means God can delegate that power.//

Pay attention, I gave Mark 12:32 twice

"But of that day or hour, no one knows, neither that Angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Jesus doesn't have ALL the power from His Father.

So HOW can the Pope have the power that Jesus doesn't have?

//Two persons - like, say, Jesus and Mary?//

We already KNOW they are in Heaven.

Two persons made 'Servants of God.' like Pope Paul VI and Rose Hawthorne.

//..presumptuous..to tell him I want to know NOW"?---StrongAxe

Yet, He tells us presumptuous children anyway. Isn't HE GREAT?

What? You would DENY someone a miracle?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/26/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Yes, Jesus said so! Matthew 16:19

Then the Pope has the power to damn people to hell, which means God can delegate that power.

Because there is a tight progress. If any prayers are to said even 2 persons, both are threw out. Even if both are Christians.

Two persons - like, say, Jesus and Mary?

No theory of Salvation. It's a process to SEE who is in Heaven NOW.

Yet Jesus himself said that the wheat would not be separated from the tares until the final judgment. Isn't it presumptuous to tell him "I don't want to wait - I want to know NOW"?
---StrongAxe on 8/25/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Marriage


//Does he (Pope), or doesn't he?//

Yes, Jesus said so! Matthew 16:19
I gave Mark 12:32 as an example below.

//..how can you tell the difference between post-mortem miracles attributed to a Christian saint and those attributed to a Hindu mystic?//

Because there is a tight progress. If any prayers are to said even 2 persons, both are threw out. Even if both are Christians.

Remember where the term 'devil's advocate' came from these processes.

//Catholic theory of salvation---StrongAxe on 8/23/16

No theory of Salvation. It's a process to SEE who is in Heaven NOW.

If no one knew a person is in Heaven it doesn't means he isn't in Heaven.
Just that we DON'T KNOW he is in Heaven.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/25/16


"This is a long and convoluted argument that cannot be carried on in snippets of 125 words or less. Eastern Christians (and some Western Christians) have always maintained that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but is sent by both Father and Son."
Which is the absolute truth. Jhn 14:16>Jhn 14:26>Jhn 15:26
Something else to consider, Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself, but he sent me. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, In Father's own words, I, even I, am he that comforts you: Think about it.
---joseph on 8/25/16


"I simply accept what the Church has received from the Apostles, believed, and passed down to us."
Good for you Cluny, I am not attempting to convince you otherwise. I was simply responding to your allegations, and stating why I believe as I do.
---joseph on 8/25/16


Ruben said, "But what you just wrote, sounds like the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son!"

This is a long and convoluted argument that cannot be carried on in snippets of 125 words or less. Eastern Christians (and some Western Christians) have always maintained that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, but is sent by both Father and Son.

Look up "filioque" on the internet, especially looking at Orthodox Christian
websites. Much more room and much fuller explanation than I can give.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/25/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Debt Consolidation


\\Doesn't the Pope have power to loose or bind anything on heaven and earth, which would include forbidding anyone entry?\\

Not even the most rabid Papist would go that far, StrongAxe, and you know that.

Even the anathemas appended to certain papal statements are WARNINGS, not sentences.

Joseph, you said, "It is my belief....." I simply accept what the Church has received from the Apostles, believed, and passed down to us.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/25/16


Cluny thank you for the definitions. I do not know why you would associate my post with either of those. Perhaps it was the statement that "It is my belief that the Holy Spirit is only deity in that it proceeds from Deity as the Father's anointing." Which is primarily based on "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil, for God was with him." With Him as an inspirational, influential, empowering force for Good. I view the Holy Spirit as a shared attribute of the Father, through which all of the "seven spirits of God" are manifest. Divine as being in Him, and of Him.
---joseph on 8/24/16


Nicole_Lacey:

(Reposting, because original post "disappeared")

You wrote: Only God has the power to cast any creature to hell.

Doesn't the Pope have power to loose or bind anything on heaven and earth, which would include forbidding anyone entry? If he does, God CAN delegate that power. If not, he can't bind+loose EVERYTHING.


Cluny:

Jesus himself refuted Adoptionism by saying "Before Abraham was, I AM", which would not be possible if he only became the Son at birth or later. How could they not see something so transparent?
---StrongAxe on 8/24/16


Monk_Brendan:

You wrote: ... when certain people began preaching that you could only reach God if you followed their rules ...

But isn't that exactly what the RCC has been saying from time immemorial? That's what I remember being taught when I was a child.
---StrongAxe on 8/24/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Refinancing


\\erhaps, however I have no idea what a Penevmatomach or Adoptionist is,\\

The Pnevmatomachs (to use the correct spelling) were those who denied that the Holy Spirit is true God, as is the Son and Father. The word means "enemies of the Spirit."

Adoptionism is the notion that Jesus was adopted as the Son and became Christ some time after His earthly nativity, probably at His baptism in the Jordan. SDAs teach this.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/24/16


Joseph said, "It is my belief that the Holy Spirit is only deity in that it proceeds from Deity as the Father's anointing."

But that has NEVER been the teaching of the Church, from the time of Jesus on until mid-1800's America when certain people began preaching that you could only reach God if you followed their rules (one set for each preacher) and the rules differed greatly, with one group saying you had to wear special underwear, to another group saying you could only eat grains and cereal.

In all that mess, the Holy Spirit was denied.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/23/16


"joseph, you sound not only like a Penevmatomach, but an Arian or even an Adoptionist".

Perhaps, however I have no idea what a Penevmatomach or Adoptionist is, I tried to look them up but found no results, and I am certainly not Arian.
---joseph on 8/23/16


Only God has the power to cast any creature to hell.

Oh? I thought the pope had the power to bind and loose things in heaven. Does he, or doesn't he?

God tell us who's in Heaven by Miracles.

I ask again, how can you tell the difference between post-mortem miracles attributed to a Christian saint and those attributed to a Hindu mystic? Either the latter don't indicate the person is in heaven (proving your theory unreliable), or he is, calling into question the Catholic theory of salvation. Which is it?
---StrongAxe on 8/23/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Franchises


joseph, you sound not only like a Penevmatomach, but an Arian or even an Adoptionist.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/23/16


If a pope points a finger and damns someone to hell---StrongAxe on 8/23/16

Only God has the power to cast any creature to hell.

Thus, only God can convict.

The RCC doesn't even ask God who's in hell.

We only ask God who is in Heaven now.

God tell us who's in Heaven by Miracles.

But, Hell isn't our right to know.

The RCC's duty is to point everyone to Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior prior to Death so they can avoid hell.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/23/16


I agree with the Nicene Creed and original Constantinople Creed but reject many of the subsequent creeds.

What was eliminated in the subsequent creeds was the words "of the essence of the Father", "begotten, not made", and "being of one substance with the Father". These are very important lines.

These words make plain to all that Jesus is not inferior to the Father in any way. Jesus is of the same essence, substance, same deity, as God the Father.

Eliminating these words has made room for people to come along and say that Jesus and The Father are different, that Jesus was created, and not of the same essence and substance as the Father.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/23/16


If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit,... then does it not stand that the Holy Spirit IS God... hence is worshipped with the Father and Son.
Brendan, Cluny, It is my belief that the Holy Spirit is only deity in that it proceeds from Deity as the Father's anointing. Representative of His Christ, as His power and empowerment, and His mind, from which flows His inspiration, insight, and influence. Father anointed the Son, who in turn anoints man. Therefore the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father via the Son as His gift to man, receiving of the Son's, speaking of the Son, and thus glorifying the Son. It is through the Holy Spirit that we call Jesus Lord, and worship the Father in our reliance upon Him to lead us unto His Truth.
---joseph on 8/23/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Lead Generation


Excellent question Strongaxe!

Logically that would seem to be the case, but it isn't because Jesus gives Peter His Authority on earth. Not Absolute Authority

Mark 12:32
"But of that day or hour, no one knows, neither that Angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

If Jesus doesn't know neither the Popes.

Just like when we say the Pope is infallible in FAITH and MORALS, you all go bananas.
You hear 'The Pope is infallible.
So you believe we BELIEVE in ALL THINGS.
Mark 13:32 proves the opposite.

Jesus didn't leave us orphans vulnerable to satan and his evil companions.

He left us a Church our Mother with the Pope as the Vicar of Christ who we call Papa.
We are not orphans.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/23/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You showed that I was wrong, and taught me something too, for which I thank you.

Also to give good tidings and announcing Jesus' Birth and God's plan.

Different angels are delegated different powers. My point is that sometimes God delegates his various powers and authorities to subordinates, and trusts them to use them appropriately. Isn't this the very root of the RCC's claim to legitimacy, that Jesus granted Peter the authority to declare anything in heaven and have it happen on earth, and that power has been passed down to the popes? If a pope points a finger and damns someone to hell, is that binding, or not? If not, he has no authority. If so, he has the power to convict. Which is it?
---StrongAxe on 8/23/16


//StrongAxe, tell me if you can find the angel of death?. I can't.- me
You're right. My argument doesn't apply there. But it does apply to 2 Chronicles 32:21.//

No, I was asking because you helped me realize the angel of death wasn't in Exodus as I TRULY thought myself.

//an angel was delegated the power of conviction and execution.---StrongAxe on 8/21/16

Also to give good tidings and announcing Jesus' Birth and God's plan.
Luke 2:10-14
The word angel means messenger of God.

So the angel didn't produce the Word or Command, but simply passing the Word/Command to another.

So we are going in circles.

Has I been saying only God convicts!
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/22/16


Joseph said, "It also speaks of the Holy Spirit as worshipped and glorified with the Father and the Son. There lies my objection,...."

1Cor 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.(KJV)

If your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and we, as Christians only build temples to God, then does it not stand that the Holy Spirit IS God.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/22/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Mortgages


In Eastern Orthodox angelology (for lack of a better word, we prefer to call the "angel of death" the Angel of Meeting. He and the soul's Guardian Angel meet the soul and escorts it (him) to the Particular Judgement.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 8/22/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: StrongAxe, tell me if you can find the angel of death?. I can't.

You're right. My argument doesn't apply there. But it does apply to 2 Chronicles 32:21.
And the Lord sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.

There, an angel was delegated the power of conviction and execution.
---StrongAxe on 8/21/16


StrongAxe, tell me if you can find the angel of death?. I can't.

Exodus ch 11 and 12, God keeps saying "I, I, I.

V23 For the LORD will go by, striking down

V27 (To children)"This is the Passover sacrifice of the Lord, who PASSED over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt, when He struck down the Egyptians,.

V29 the LORD SLEW every first born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh on the throne to the first-born of the prisoner in the dungeon, as well as all the first-born of the animals.

I am sincere, I always thought it was the angel of death, but I can't find the word angel during the event.

Can anyone give chapter and verse of the angel of death in relations to the Passover?
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/21/16


Joseph said, "Because the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the son, not as some separate deity, but as their direct divine inspiration"

Sorry Joseph, but that's wrong. Forgive my Eastern Theology soapsuds, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only. The Holy Spirit as a gift is given by the Father and the Son.

Nor is the Holy Spirit a separate deity. He is part of the Holy Trinity, a single Deity, the One and Only God.

Also, the Holy Spirit is on the same level of Godhood as the Father and the Holy Spirit, and not a subordinate.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/19/16

But what you just wrote, sounds like the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son!
---Ruben on 8/21/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Personal Loans


Nothing less than God can be blasphemed: neither angels nor the Bible. But Jesus DID say that the Holy Spirit could be, therefore the Holy Spirit is truly God, and hence is worshipped with the Father and Son.
---Cluny on 8/21/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Yes, but still ONLY God can Convict.

When God sent the Plague of the Firstborn on Egypt, the angel of death came to slay the firstborn based on certain impartial conditions. That angel was judge, jury, and executioner - because he was empowered by God to do so.
---StrongAxe on 8/20/16


Only God can convict- me
Or,one to whom God has given full authority to do so.---StrongAxe

Yes, but still ONLY God can Convict.

A policeman can has the authority to arrest you for a crime committed.

The Judge/Jury has the authority to sentence you to Jail or Death.

But only the Law can convict you. Everyone is basing their authority from the LAW.

The Archangel Gabriel had the authority from God to ask Mary if she would be the mother of God.

BUT, only the HOLY SPIRIT (GOD) was capable of this miraculous act.

Luke1:35
"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. (BTW Evidence of the Trinity all 3 together as in Genesis for the 6 day creation)
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/20/16


\\Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit referred to as "a deity"?\\ And just where in either the Nicene Creed or did I say that?
---Cluny on 8/20/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Auto Insurance


/Where in scripture does it mention the Holy Spirit being worshipped, or that it is to be worshipped?
I already gave it...\-Nicole_Lacey on 8/19/16
-So you're saying scripture does not mention the Holy Spirit being worshipped: it is inferred.
-But, Why would the Holy Spirit worship Himself anyways?
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
-Concerning the Holy Spirit being of the Godhead:
1Co 6:19 ...your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost...
2Co 6:16 ...ye are the temple of the living God, as God hath said, I will dwell in them...
---micha9344 on 8/19/16


"the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only.---Monk_Brendan on 8/19/16" That's true, my mistake.
---joseph on 8/19/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: ... Matthew 28:19 ...

Just because several things are included in a sentence doesn't necessarily mean they are the same. Superman fought for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way", but "The American Way" is not a universal virtue. In the phrase, "Between the devil and the deep blue sea", the devil is not a geographical feature, nor is the sea a supernatural entity.

(Only God can convict)

Or, one to whom God has given full authority to do so. Catholics especially should understand this concept of delegated authority, as their entire hierarchy relies on the fact that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom.
---StrongAxe on 8/19/16


Where in scripture does it mention the Holy Spirit being worshipped, or that it is to be worshipped?

I already gave it in Matthew 28:19 The Father is God, The Son is God, so with logic and common sense we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is God since Jesus placed Him in the same sentences.

John 16:8 And when He comes He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation
(Only God can convict)

V13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, (God) he will guide you to all truth.

God proceeds from God. Deity. You can use logic and common sense when it comes to knowing God. He gave us these gifts

You can't get bad fruit from a good tree, nor good fruit from a bad tree.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/19/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Holidays


Joseph said, "Because the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the son, not as some separate deity, but as their direct divine inspiration"

Sorry Joseph, but that's wrong. Forgive my Eastern Theology soapsuds, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only. The Holy Spirit as a gift is given by the Father and the Son.

Nor is the Holy Spirit a separate deity. He is part of the Holy Trinity, a single Deity, the One and Only God.

Also, the Holy Spirit is on the same level of Godhood as the Father and the Holy Spirit, and not a subordinate.
---Monk_Brendan on 8/19/16


"The part about the Holy Spirit was added by the first Council of Constantinople to condemn the pnevmatomachs: people who , like you, denied the deity of the Holy Spirit."---Cluny on 8/18/16

Where in scripture is the Holy Spirit referred to as "a deity"?

---Nicole_Lacey on 8/18/16 Where in scripture does it mention the Holy Spirit being worshipped, or that it is to be worshipped?
---joseph on 8/18/16


"Why would Jesus place the Holy Spirit on the same level as Him and the Father if the Holy Spirit isn't to be worshipped?"--Nicole_Lacey on 8/18/16
Because the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the son, not as some separate deity, but as their direct divine inspiration
---joseph on 8/18/16


Apostles creed: 'I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,':

Speaks of Jesus Divinity. Jesus calling God His Father upset the Jews making Him equal
John 5:18..He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God

//in scripture suggest that the Holy Spirit is to be glorified or worshipped---joseph

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why would Jesus place the Holy Spirit on the same level as Him and the Father if the Holy Spirit isn't to be worshipped?

Because the Holy Spirit is Divinity as well.
---Nicole_Lacey on 8/18/16


Read These Insightful Articles About Health Insurance


So you're not objecting to what the AC says, but to what you think it doesn't say. The part about the Holy Spirit was added by the first Council of Constantinople to condemn the pnevmatomachs: people who , like you, denied the deity of the Holy Spirit.
---Cluny on 8/18/16


Since no one else has responded to this, I will. I object to the so called apostles creed because it says nothing explicitly about the divinity of Jesus, and this makes it acceptable to many Arians. Yet it is associated with the belief that, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, each of the Twelve Apostles contributed an article of a creed. As concerning the nicene creed, although it does explicitly affirm the co-essential divinity of the Son. applying to him the term "consubstantial", It also speaks of the Holy Spirit as worshipped and glorified with the Father and the Son. There lies my objection, nothing that I know of in scripture suggest that the Holy Spirit is to be glorified or worshipped, only adhered to and followed.
---joseph on 8/17/16


Cluny please know that I, for one, am not ignoring your questions, It just seems to me that when ever I respond to one, the blog is terminated, case in point, "News Intercessory Prayer", for one, and usually before I can record the debate that usually ensues, but never allowed to finish, and that irritates me to no end:o) I don't understand that because you ask what I consider to be good, thought provoking questions, and I enjoy a good debate, so I will refrain. Enjoy the discussion with others.
---joseph on 8/14/16


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.