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Violating The Sabbath

In Luke 6:6-11 Jesus only used his mouth to heal the man with a withered hand on a Sabbath. Jesus didn't even lift a finger, and it enraged the Scribes and Pharisees.

What do you all considered to be violating the Sabbath (Saturday or Sunday)?

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 9/5/16
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//However, it DOESN'T give you the right to make duplicate keys, nor does it give you the right to change the locks.//

If you tell me to do whatsoever you wish, and I will back your decision in my house and where ever I am at if someone ask me.

That is exactly what Jesus told Peter. Whatsoever you bind on earth is BOUND in Heaven where Jesus is sitting at the Right Side of Heaven!

//Note that when Paul..---StrongAxe

Again, STOP RUNNING TO PAUL TO OVERRIDE JESUS!

Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN not Paul.

So WHY are you talking about Paul?

Paul isn't in Matthew 16:19 nor did he answer Jesus question of "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"

PETER DID
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/26/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote (yet again): Matt 16:19

If I give you the keys to my house, that allows you to open and close the doors as you see fit. However, it DOESN'T give you the right to make duplicate keys, nor does it give you the right to change the locks.

Note that when Paul was asked what laws new believers should follow, he mentioned only four, and going to church was not one of them. Note that he also mentioned what I just said - he never required people to attend church (he just said "not to forsake assembling", but prescribed no penalty for that). Surely he could not have said that if Peter could and would override him.
---StrongAxe on 9/26/16


//These rules place an additional condition for salvation on the FAITHFUL that was nowhere taught in the Bible, neither by Jesus, nor by Paul, nor by any of the other Apostles.---StrongAxe

What are you talking about?

It is in the Gospel and taught by Jesus!

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and WHATSOEVER thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and WHATSOEVER thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So you must be careful to do EVERYTHING they tell you.


It's in the Bible if you just open your eyes.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/26/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Since a "grave CAUSE" is needed to EXCUSE one from this obligation it would be a serious or MORTAL SIN to willfully skip MASS on Sunday...

Exactly! You just made my point! These rules place an additional condition for salvation on the FAITHFUL that was nowhere taught in the Bible, neither by Jesus, nor by Paul, nor by any of the other Apostles. Since this CHANGES the rules for salvation, it is "another gospel". Paul wrote that if ANYONE, even an angel from heaven, preached a gospel different from what he was preaching, he was to be condemned.
---StrongAxe on 9/25/16


StrongAxe, you left out a WORD from those canons: FAITHFUL

Meaning those who are faithful to the teachings of the RCC. Obviously if you left the Catholic Church you are NOT part of the Faithful.

Can.1247 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the FAITHFUL are obliged (NOT YOU ALL) to participate in the MASS. (You all DON'T call your Services Mass. We do.)

Can.1248 1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

Since a "grave CAUSE" is needed to EXCUSE one from this obligation it would be a serious or MORTAL SIN to willfully skip MASS on Sunday...
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/25/16




Nicole_Lacey:

Google: "mortal sin" sunday, e.g.:

EWTN cites Canons 1247, 1248, hence:
Since a "grave cause" is needed to excuse one from this obligation it would be a serious or mortal sin to willfully skip Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation, as the Church has always taught.

St. Paul Catholic Church: How often have we heard, If you miss Mass on Sunday then you are guilty of committing a mortal sin. Many of us were taught this from our childhood.

This and other sources say it is a "grave sin", and also that a "grave sin" becomes a "mortal sin" if you know it is grave, and do it willingly (Catechism 1857-1859).
---StrongAxe on 9/25/16


Heres what Cardinal Gibbons had to say in his book, Faith of our Fathers:

"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday."


"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy Catholic Church" - Bishop Seymour, Why We Keep Sunday


---Jerry6593 on 9/25/16


Nicole: "Common Sense is how I know the Apostles started going to Church on Sundays."

I don't think that it is common sense, but rather a matter of naivete and cult indoctrination. Even your "church fathers" disagree with you.

"Ambrose, the celebrated [4th century] bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does.'" - Heylyn, History of the Sabbath.


Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto ALL thy commandments.


---Jerry6593 on 9/24/16


BINGO! I knew it!

When has the RCC EVER accused someone of committing MORAL SIN for not going to Church on Sunday?

You are inferring in our business.

The rule ONLY applies to CATHOLICS who are not sick, caring for a sick one or has to work.

Each individual Catholic knows if he or she is sick or just wants to sleep in or watch football instead of going to Mass.

It's between God and I WHY I didn't go to Mass.

Mass is celebrated Saturday evening and several times ALL DAY SUNDAY.

Some campus even have Mass at 11pm Sunday night to HELP met our Sunday Obligation.

The RCC isn't in the Baptist, 7th day Adventist(?), Jewish or Muslim's BUSINESS.

Can you stay out of the RCC's business?
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/24/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Can't He change His mind?

Yes, he can. But he never said anywhere that he did.

BTW, observing the Sabbath on a Sunday ISN'T a damnable theological heresy.

No. Paul said one can worship whenever one wants. However declaring Sunday as a Holy Day of Obligation, thus accusing anyone who worships on Saturday (or any other day) rather than Sunday of moral sin - thus condeming him to hell, IS, because it adds new conditions to salvation that neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever taught (just like the Pharisees did). This falls foul of Paul's warning "If ANYONE preaches another gospel than the one I have been teaching you, even if it's an angel, he is to be condemned".
---StrongAxe on 9/23/16




True GOD can change his mind. But that is very unusual.

But the Bible never says he changes His mind about the Sabbath. So why should I not follow Jesus and what he and the Bible says?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/23/16


//replace it with another day?//

Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath. God decided which day the Sabbath would occur.

Can't He change His mind?

Luke 5:39 "no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, 'The old is better.'"

//'Whatever' Matt 16:13-19
You keep claiming he changed it, but where's the proof?--StrongeAxe

As I said in the other blog.

The proof lies in the Apostles and their Disciples and the rest of the Fathers of the Church to even the Reformers celebrating the New Sabbath on Sundays.

Or do you think you are the FIRST to realize that we been celebrating the Sabbath on a different day?

BTW, observing the Sabbath on a Sunday ISN'T a damnable theological heresy.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/23/16


Nicole_Lacey:

The sabbath day has been occurring since Genesis 1, and the Jews were commanded to observe it since Mount Sinai. Who had a good reason (let alone the authority) to arbitrarily discard it and replace it with another day? The sabbath has ALWAYS, since the dawn of creation, been from evening on the sixth day to evening on the seventh day (i.e. sunset Friday to sunset Saturday).

But remember the 'Whatever' in Matthew 16:13-19

You keep claiming he changed it, but where's the proof?

No they are not...

Once again, you totally missed my point - that even religious leaders who are the Approved Custodians of Truth are capable of the most damnable theological heresies.
---StrongAxe on 9/22/16


//Why do something directly against one of the most basic commandments?//

Who said the RCC is against the basic commandment?

You went beyond the Commandment as the Scribes and Pharisees.

What does the 3rd (4th) Commandment state?

Keep the Sabbath Day Holy.

The RCC does and TEACHES us to keep the Sabbath Day Holy.

Now the matter of when is the Sabbath is an another matter.

But remember the 'Whatever' in Matthew 16:13-19

//He never screamed at adulteresses or thieves...What makes you think RCC leaders are immune to the same errors the Pharisees made?--StrongAxe

No they are not. But Jesus NEVER told His Disciples and other to do EVERYTHING thieves or adulteresses tell them what to do.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/22/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Common sense will tell you that they knew WHY it was a good reason to change the 3rd (4th) Commandment date.

Then please explain your "common sense" reason of this, because it certainly doesn't seem "obvious" to me. Why do something directly against one of the most basic commandments?

Yet Jesus STILL told the people to OBEY THEIR TRADITIONS that went ahead of the actually law:

My point was that, despite their ecclesiastical authority, Jesus frequently chastised them. He never screamed at adulteresses or thieves (ten commandments notwithstanding), but DID scream at Pharisees. What makes you think RCC leaders are immune to the same errors the Pharisees made?
---StrongAxe on 9/22/16


//Just because a lot of respected leaders did something, that does not necessarily mean it was right.//

It doesn't mean it's wrong either.

Common sense will tell you that they knew WHY it was a good reason to change the 3rd (4th) Commandment date.

//The Pharisees were the custodians of Jewish law and tradition- yet Jesus told them they had put their own traditions so far ahead of what the law actually required, they were doing it all wrong.---StrongAxe

Yet Jesus STILL told the people to OBEY THEIR TRADITIONS that went ahead of the actually law:

Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So PRACTICE and OBSERVE EVERYTHING they tell you
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/22/16


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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Common Sense is how I know the Apostles started going to Church on Sundays.
Common Sense, because EVERY Follower went to Church on Sundays.


Once again, how do you KNOW they started to go to Church on Sundays, and when that started, and why? Not from the Bible.

Church Scholars including your Reformer Fathers continued going to Church on Sundays.

Just because a lot of respected leaders did something, that does not necessarily mean it was right. The Pharisees were the custodians of Jewish law and tradition for thousands of years - yet Jesus told them they had put their own traditions so far ahead of what the law actually required, they were doing it all wrong.
---StrongAxe on 9/21/16


Colossians 2:16

(GW) Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.


From: The Biblical Illustrator

4. The bearing of Pauls principles on the religious observance of Sunday.
(1) The obligation of the Jewish Sabbath has passed away, but the institution of a weekly day of rest is put in Scripture independently and prior to the Mosaic institution (i.e., intiation of The Law).

violation = not resting unto the Lord
---aservant on 9/21/16


//Ahh, Christian love. How sweet the sound.//

Yes, you all should SHOW that Christian love to your Reformer Fathers and the Father's of the Church instead of thinking they were too STUPID to know when to celebrate the Sabbath.

//your "whatever" doctrine.//

Better known as JESUS' WORDS!

Show some respect.

Forgot your Bible Only doctrine?

You complain I am not showing any Christian Love to you all, BUT you have the nerve to refuse the SAME love to Jesus Himself??????

//Now you infer that it was first century scholars - an equally ridiculous theory.---Jerry6593

I am saying you are NOT smarter than all the Fathers of the Church and your Reformer Fathers.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/21/16


****when and where is the day of worship changed? Not in or by the Apostles

Nicole_Lacey wrote: How do you know that? You don't.

//How do YOU know they DID?---StrongAxe on 9/20/16

Common Sense is how I know the Apostles started going to Church on Sundays.

Common Sense, because EVERY Follower went to Church on Sundays.

Not one Father of the Church complained about the Sabbath being on a Sunday.

Church Scholars including your Reformer Fathers continued going to Church on Sundays.

Common Sense
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/21/16


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Nicole: "You sound like some Whippersnapper know it all."

Ahh, Christian love. How sweet the sound.

Nicole, you are the one who stated that dead Peter changed the Sabbath Day to Sunday because he was made first pope and was granted the power under your "whatever" doctrine. Now you infer that it was first century scholars - an equally ridiculous theory.


---Jerry6593 on 9/21/16


I worked once with a Messianic Christian. We discussed our beliefs. He was happy that I told him that it was no problem to me that he kept all the Jewish Holy days. He had been judged by other Christians who did so. But he said he didn't believe I would be lost for not keeping them. So he and I mostly agree with you Strong Ax.

I do believe there is Bible scripture that upholds still keeping the Seventh day Sabbath. But I am not to judge you.

Good point on your answer to Nicole.

GOD bless.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/20/16


Samuelbb7:

You wrote: Paul never says don't keep Sabbath. Or any other day of worship but Sabbath.

I never said that he did. I DID say Paul said some hold some days (e.g. the Sabbath) holier than others, while others hold all days equally holy - and each person should decide in his own mind. I DID say Paul said we should not allow anyone to judge us with respect to food, new moons, holidays, or sabbaths. You feel free to worship on the Sabbath, but should allow others to feel free to worship on whatever other days they choose.


when and where is the day of worship changed? Not in or by the Apostles

Nicole_Lacey wrote: How do you know that? You don't.

How do YOU know they DID?
---StrongAxe on 9/20/16


You cannot find ONE WORD about worship as given in the Fourth Commandment, especially since services were held several times daily in the Tabernacle, Temples, and from the first Exile onwards, synagogues.
---Cluny on 9/20/16


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//when and where is the day of worship changed? Not in or by the Apostles---Samuelbb7

How do you know that? You don't.

Don't you all know how you all sound?

You sound like some Whippersnapper know it all.

You all believe that the 1st century Christians and Scholars made a mistake by going to Church on a Sunday.

The Scholars in the 7th, 8th and 12th century missed the mark.

They didn't know that the Jewish's Sabbath was on a Saturday?

They were not SMART enough to ask the question when did the Sabbath change to Sunday?

Not EVEN your Reformer Founders (An oxymoron) in the 16-18th Century didn't read the OT and realize they were celebrating the Sabbath on the WRONG day.

REALLY????
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/20/16


Non Jews have become Jews since the Exodus.

Strong Ax you missed my question.

The Gospels are for the Church and so the words of Jesus are for the Church. Just like the words of Paul.

Paul never says don't keep Sabbath. Or any other day of worship but Sabbath.

So when and where is the day of worship changed? Not in or by the Apostles.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/19/16


//Jesus stated the Sabbath was made for man. He didn't say it was for Jews only//
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
---michael_e on 9/18/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: What? You think that Paul was converted AWAY from Christianity? You are digging the hypocrite pit even deeper.

Who said "AWAY"? No, on the Damascus road, Paul was converted FROM Pharisaic Judaism TO Christianity.

If something is written that seems confusing or contradictory at first glance, maybe it means something else than you thought it meant, and you should consider alternative interpretations - and if that fails, perhaps you should inquire as to what meaning was intended, instead of just hurling accusations and insults.

By the Golden Rule, you shouldn't accuse someone of hypocrisy unless you are willing to accept such accusations yourself.
---StrongAxe on 9/18/16


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Axe: "BEFORE his conversion"

What? You think that Paul was converted AWAY from Christianity? You are digging the hypocrite pit even deeper.


---Jerry6593 on 9/18/16


//He meet with Gentiles on Sabbath. Act 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.---Samuelbb7

I am glad you brought up that Passage.

Why did Paul break the Sabbath himself teaching the Gentiles?

Jesus said only Priests were innocent on the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:5 (Jesus speaking)"..Or haven't you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?"

Paul wasn't a Priest.

He was from the tribe of Benjamin not Levi

Philippians 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews,
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/18/16


Strong ax he mention 4 in Romans 13 and the fifth in Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandment with promise,)


Now notice he mentions this is the first with a promise. Which points to the four before this one.

So let's see the first is no other gods, second don't worship idol, third don't misuse the name of GOD. I believe you would affirm that these are true things that Christians should not do. The Jews concentrated on these and forgot the last six. As still many do today.

But then you say well the fourth doesn't count. But why are the others all good and just this one bad?

Have you ever read Exodus 20?
---Samuelbb7 on 9/18/16


Samuelbb7:

You wrote: Paul was a Pharisee and worked with the Sanhedrin.
To be these he would keep the Sabbath.


Yes. He kept the Sabbath, and the dietary laws, and all the others - BEFORE his conversion. After that, he said that trying to justify oneself by keeping the law was pointless. When asked which laws new converts SHOULD keep, he mentioned only 4, and keeping the Sabbath was conspicuously absent from that list.
---StrongAxe on 9/17/16


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When new gentile converts, who knew nothing of Jewish law, were added to the church, which commandments of the law were they required to keep? The answer was, they were to refrain from idols, blood, things strangled, and fornication (Acts 15:20,29, 21:25). Conspicuously absent was the command for them to observe the Sabbath. Apparently, the Apostles didn't seem to think it was important.---StrongAxe on 9/8/16

Excellent point!!!
---David on 9/17/16


Strong Ax Paul was a Pharisee and worked with the Sanhedrin.

To be these he would keep the Sabbath.

He never said to not keep the Sabbath. He meet with Gentiles on Sabbath. Act 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Jesus stated the Sabbath was made for man. He didn't say it was for Jews only.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
---Samuelbb7 on 9/16/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: You twist Paul's words as justification for disobedience of the Sabbath Commandment.

Colossians 2:16-17 does not tell you not to keep the Sabbath. Feel free to keep what you want, and I will do the same. However, it does tell ME that I should ignore YOU when YOU judge ME for not keeping it.

Yet Paul was himself a faithful Sabbath keeper, as is attested multiple times in the New Testament.

Oh? Where did he do this?
---StrongAxe on 9/16/16


axe: You twist Paul's words as justification for disobedience of the Sabbath Commandment. Yet Paul was himself a faithful Sabbath keeper, as is attested multiple times in the New Testament. So you make Paul a hypocrite!

Do you then take the word of a hypocrite over that of Christ Himself?



---Jerry6593 on 9/16/16


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Samuelbb7:

How do you distingish those sabbaths that are a shadow of things to come (that we should not judge each other over), from those sabbaths that are not shadows, and for which you can judge people?

When one says "You should do X", and says it repeatedly, this is not merely encouraging X, but saying "doing X is very important", implying "not doing X is very bad" - which is judgment.

I never said the Sabbath is gone - it's just we Christians need not observe it like the Jews did (refraining from work, travel, commerce, cooking, turning on the lights, etc.).
---StrongAxe on 9/16/16


Close Strong ax. Paul said not to judge someone in the Sabbath days that were shadows. Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

The Seventh day Sabbath is from Creation. Genesis 2.

So if I don't judge you about how you keep on don't keep the Sabbath. That is fine. But does that mean I cannot say that the Sabbath is still around and should be followed? Paul was always opposed to judging others. Why because only Jesus is the true Judge.

Not Judging does not mean the Sabbath is gone.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/15/16


But Jesus told that man by the pool to take up his bed and walk. Jews understood that carrying the bed was work. He could have come back for it, or rested with it until the next day.

The Sabbath is for rest. And Jesus says, "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

During the Sabbath, then, we can learn with Jesus how to be in His rest, so we can stay this way, all the time. Or else, if we do not stay this way, we are violating the Sabbath with its standard of how to be all the time.
---Bill on 9/15/16


Jerry6593:

Notably absent in Matt 12:8 and Luke 4:16 is the command that we must observe the sabbath.

Jesus did that, but never commanded his followers to do so. He also lived in the country with no roof over his head. Do you follow that too? If not, immediately your house and become homeless, because Jesus was, and be sure to be crucified at age 33 - if you think we must do everything he did.

I have NEVER SAID Jesus switched the Sabbath. Yet Paul (who I presume knew what he was talking about) said some esteem ALL days equally, and commanded us to NOT ALLOW anyone to judge us with respect of the sabbath.
---StrongAxe on 9/14/16


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//Matthew 16 does not call peter a vicar.//

I don't think you know what that word means.

A vicar is a representative, deputy or substitute, anyone acting "in the person of" or agent for a superior. Linguistically, vicar is cognate with the English prefix "vice", similarly meaning "deputy". The title appears in a number of Christian ecclesiastical contexts, but also as an administrative title, or title modifier, in the Roman Empire.--Wikipedia

//He who Peter proclaimed saves us.---Samuelbb7

Jesus.

If the Owner leaves me in charge of his business it doesn't mean I own the business.

And the Owner CAN leave ANYONE in charge of his Business he wishes
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/14/16


axe: "You can claim that you agree with what Jesus said, and you believe you agree with what he meant but didn't actually say - but to claim that he agrees with you is a very presumptuous conjecture."

Jesus said:

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.

Also:

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

I agree with Him.

Now show me where Jesus negated His own Commandment by substituting Sunday for the Sabbath. Of course you cant because everything you say is "very presumptuous conjecture".



---Jerry6593 on 9/14/16


But Matthew 16 does not call peter a vicar. Also your understanding makes Peter a liar. We are talking about this also on another blog.

Why would GOD contradict himself by setting up Peter and then put the Church under the leadership of James. He was the one Peter had to report too.

Also who saves us? Does Peter save us? No.

We are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

He who Peter proclaimed saves us. Does not that make his proclamation the true foundation?

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/13/16


//Jesus was not around when RCC was created.---Steveng

Matthew 16:13-19 is when Jesus sets up the RCC and His Vicar on earth.

Pentecost is the Birthday of the RCC.


//Popes can change what is written in the Word of God?//

'Whatever' authoritarian power is a very BOLD declaration given by Jesus.

Since Jesus is God, I guess He can do whatever He wishes as well.

BTW, it the RCC that officially interprets the Bible

They might have to change these also:
//Luke 4:4//

No because our Eucharist is the Word of God. Our daily
bread.

//Deu 4:2//

We RCC agreed, so your point?

//Deu 12:32---micha9344

Yup, there goes the 'Whatever' word.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/13/16


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Jerry6593:

You wrote: I don't care how many disagree with me as long as Jesus agrees with me, and He does!

This is the very presumptuous claim that virtually every single religious group at any time and any place makes - first by stating "we agree with God", and then making the illogical leap, "God agrees with us". As they teach contradictory things, most of them must necessarily be wrong.

You can claim that you agree with what Jesus said, and you believe you agree with what he meant but didn't actually say - but to claim that he agrees with you is a very presumptuous conjecture.
---StrongAxe on 9/13/16


/Matt 16:13-19 "Whatever"...The RCC/Popes with the authority given by JESUS\-Nicole_Lacey on 9/12/16
Popes can change what is written in the Word of God?
They might have to change these also:
Luke 4:4 ...That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Luke 11:28 ...blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
-God commanded a certain day of rest, yet RCC diminished that day and added another.
---micha9344 on 9/12/16


Nicole_Lacey wrote: "The RCC/Popes with the authority given by JESUS"

Jesus was not around when RCC was created. And he won't be until the second coming. He authorized the Holy Spirit to attend to things on Earth.
---Steveng on 9/12/16


//Sunday could only be the Sabbath if the Bible says so. It does not.//

Matt 16:13-19 is part of the Bible.

//Sabbath is mentioned 60 times in 55 verses.---Samuelbb7

I read the article you got that stats:
'What the Bible Says about the First Day of the Week'

I would love to debate that article because it has a LOT of ERRORS!

//as long as Jesus agrees with me//

He doesn't Matt 16:3-19

//a passage where Jesus declares a change of His Sabbath Commandment to Sunday---Jerry6593

Matt 16:13-19 "Whatever"

//NOW? Who changed it? Who gave them the "authority" to change it--Steveng

The RCC/Popes with the authority given by JESUS
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/12/16


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Nicole: "Even 99% of Protestants DISAGREE with you."

I don't care how many disagree with me as long as Jesus agrees with me, and He does!


"Give me a Gospel passage with Jesus calling HIMSELF a Rock that not ISN'T A Cornerstone."

Right after you give me a passage where Jesus declares a change of His Sabbath Commandment to Sunday.



---Jerry6593 on 9/12/16


Nicole_Lacey wrote: "Sorry, the true Sabbath is NOW on Sunday."

NOW? Who changed it? Who gave them the "authority" to change it from the beginning?

God blessed the seventh day and made it holy and he told the people to "remember" it as one of the ten commandments. He sanctified it never to be changed even in the new Earth.
---Steveng on 9/11/16


More like the 1st Sabbath was on Saturday. I agree!

//..check any other source such as a dictionary or encyclopedia//

I have and they acknowledge that Christians made Sundays the NEW Sabbath.

You do know that the FIRST Christians were JEWISH?

They know better than you about the Sabbath.

Dan 7:25---Jerry6593

I answered that already.

Luke 5:39 Even 99% of Protestants DISAGREE with you.

You know you have asked me questions and I ANSWERED you directly.

Please return the FAVOR!

//Give me a Gospel passage with Jesus calling HIMSELF a Rock that not ISN'T A Cornerstone.---Nicole_Lacey on 9/9/16

If you can't find the Passage, please say so instead of ignoring the request.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/11/16


Sunday could only be the Sabbath if the Bible says so. It does not. First the word Sunday is not in the bible. The Jews called it first day of the week. This is only used 8 times in the entire New Testament. Six referring to the resurrection.

One to a time to do book keeping. And last a Saturday night meeting since in the Bible First day starts at sunset of Saturday in our calendar.

Sabbath is mentioned 60 times in 55 verses. How to be kept is talked about a lot. It was made for man. Said Jesus.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 9/11/16


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Nicole: "Sorry, the true Sabbath is NOW on Sunday."

That is not true, and it makes the Bible and Jesus Himself a liar. If you would simply check any other source than Catholic publications - such as a dictionary or encyclopedia - you would find Saturday and NOT SUNDAY to be the true Sabbath. Remember, Daniel prophesied (Dan 7:25) that the beast Power would "think to change times an laws".

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE! (Rev 18:4)



---Jerry6593 on 9/11/16


Thanks StrongAxe, I appreciate your input, and you have brought up a distinction I have thought about...

Jerry,

"we WILL NOT want to offend Him by disobedience." While I agree that the believer will not want to offend Him, Of greater significance than our will is God's will
---chria9396 on 9/10/16


//While most of today's "christians" have forgotten the true sabbath, it will be re-establish in the soon to come God's kingdom.---Steveng on 9/10/16

Sorry, the true Sabbath is NOW on Sunday.

Plus, it isn't going to happen because the RCC is growing like fire in a open dry field.

You need to mediate on this Passage. I believe it will help you to adapt to God's Will

Luke 5:39
And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new, for he says, The old is better.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/10/16


Before the Hebrew people, before the Jewish people, before the Gentiles, God blessed the seventh day and made it holy. The forth commandment says to REMEMBER the sabbath and keep it holy - the only commandment to have the word "remember."

If one would overlay the gregorian calendar on the Hebrew calendar, one would find that the sabbath does indeed fall on saturday.

While most of today's "christians" have forgotten the true sabbath, it will be re-establish in the soon to come God's kingdom.
---Steveng on 9/10/16


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chira: You are on to something with your "will not" translation. Jesus said "If you love me, keep my Commandments." If we truly love Jesus, we WILL NOT want to offend Him by disobedience.


mike: There is no uncertainty as to which day of the week is the Sabbath Day. The US Naval Observatory has confirmed that the sundown Friday to sundown Saturday Seventh Day Sabbath has not changed since Christ and ALL His disciples kept it 2000 years ago. Also, the Sabbath is local (as sunset is) no matter the earth longitude, and need not be simultaneous.

The objections of the Pharisees to Christ's Sabbath observance was not His keeping of the it, but rather His refusal to keep their distortions of it.
---Jerry6593 on 9/10/16


Most everyone now days violates the Sabbath. Only no one is getting stoned for it now days. I don't think many of us enter God's Sabbath rest either. I think, worship God any day of the week you like AND EVERY DAY, but the day of rest is still supposed to be THE SABBATH (the Seventh Day) which ever day that truly is since the beginning of time. But at any moment, one side of the world is night, and the other side is day. So what is TRULY the Sabbath? And yet there should be a Sabbath Day of rest. Employers do not always want to give you your day off, and place on you mandatory days.
---Mike4879 on 9/9/16


chria9396:

English used "will" and "shall" to mean slightly different things, complicated by the fact that these were reversed with some persons. In modern American English, we use "will" for everything, never "shall".

In Hebrew, the imperfect was used for future, and imperative for commands - but only in 3rd person and not for all verbs. Otherwise, future was used for commands.

There was one slight difference - they would say "al" (don't) + imperative to say "don't do this", but "lo" (not) + future to say "you will not do this". That was not a command, but a statement of fact, which was stronger, as commands can be disobeyed, but facts can't.
---StrongAxe on 9/9/16


I read something interesting...a translation from ancient Hebrew of commandments. Of note, instead of "shall not" is "will not".

Translation (which I am not at a level to determine its literal accuracy, but came across this after giving some thought to the shall/shall nots in scripture but looking up other information)

1 I am YHWY your Elohim, there will not be for you another God before me.

Concerning the Sabbaththis source translates the commandment as
"Remember the day of ceasing (Shabbat) to make it special."
---chria9396 on 9/9/16


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//Rom 9:33 stumblingstone and ROCK of offence://

And? You can't TRIP over a foundation stone, because it has a Building over it.

But a cornerstone sticking out you can TRIP over.

That Passage isn't saying Jesus is wrong, but you are interpreting it wrong.

What? Jesus doesn't know what He is saying when He calls Himself the CORNERSTONE?

Give me a Gospel passage with Jesus calling HIMSELF a Rock that not ISN'T A Cornerstone.

//Eph 2:20//

Even Paul agrees with Jesus that HE is the Corner stone

1Co 10:4.---Jerry6593

Paul is talking about Israel with the Rock following them in the desert!
We are in the desert ourselves

A Cornerstone is still a ROCK that isn't the Cornerstone!
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/9/16


Nicole:

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [from the Greek, Petros, a piece of rock], and upon this rock [from the Greek, Petra, a mass of rock] I will build my church.

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and ROCK of offence: and whosoever believeth on HIM shall not be ashamed.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone,

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK was Christ.

Christ is the Rock upon whom the Church is built - not Peter.


---Jerry6593 on 9/9/16


//Mat 16:13-19 makes no mention of the Sabbath change, only that Christ called Peter a pebble//

1. The word 'Whatever' means: even if you change the Sabbath to Sunday. IT'S COVER!

2. You made up the word pebble. The English word used is Rock

John 1:42 Jesus looked at him and said, You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas (which, when translated, is Peter).

Paul calls Peter Cephas in Galatians 2:7-14, I Cor. 1:11-13, 3:21, 9:5, 15:5

Peter means "stone" in Greek, while Cephas is "stone" in Aramaic.

Jesus and Paul were NOT speaking to each other in Greek, in Aramaic.

//Many Christians think that Sunday was made holy by the Resurrection---Jerry6593

EXACTLY!
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/8/16


Tim, I agree with you! Yet so many reject the truth.
---Rob on 9/8/16


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Jerry6593:

You wrote: your statement that Christ upholds such desecration of His own Commandments does great violence to His written word.

When new gentile converts, who knew nothing of Jewish law, were added to the church, which commandments of the law were they required to keep? The answer was, they were to refrain from idols, blood, things strangled, and fornication (Acts 15:20,29, 21:25). Conspicuously absent was the command for them to observe the Sabbath. Apparently, the Apostles didn't seem to think it was important. Do you know better than they did?

The Sabbath hasn't changed. It's still sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. However, as gentile Christian believers, we are not required to keep it.
---StrongAxe on 9/8/16


This may open a can of worms, but here I go- 1st God wrote out the Ten Commandments so His children would know the rules since they kept insisting that they didn't know the Laws. 2nd Christ fulfilled the Law. He was able to observe the 10 commandments in His every day life. By accepting Christ we are no longer bound to the Law because Christ already endured it, and through Him we can gain a sin-free life.
---Tim on 9/8/16


The Sabbath day of rest is from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. It is a time to physically rest from one's menial labor. Sunday is the Lord's Day, a time to celebrate the risen Lord.
The Sabbath was the sign of the covenant with Israel.
This, as everything OT, pointed to Christ, specifically our rest in Him.
The command is no longer binding, since the law was our schoolmaster, which, for those in Christ that are resting in Him, are no longer under.
---micha9344 on 9/7/16


Nicole: "Everyone knows I BELIEVE the Sabbath is Sunday the 1st day as granted by the Popes and UPHELD by Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:13-19"

Yes, we all know you are a Catholic and thus believe in Catholic institutions. However, your statement that Christ upholds such desecration of His own Commandments does great violence to His written word. Mat 16:13-19 makes no mention of the Sabbath change, only that Christ called Peter a pebble while He stated that His church would be built on a massive boulder.

Many Christians think that Sunday was made holy by the Resurrection - also a false interpretation. I take it that you do not, but rather somehow extract it from the dead Peter the pebble theory.


---Jerry6593 on 9/8/16


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Strongaxe, the rest that I was referencing is found only in Jesus, who is Lord of the sabbath. My prior statement was simply the first thing that came to mind when I read the heading. The believers rest is to rely on, adhere to, and trust in the one sent to give us rest, and one who believes, has already entered into His rest. What violates that rest is unbelief. For me the sabbath concept is not about doing or not doing thus and so on a specific day, its about an effort to cease from my own vain carnal efforts, to allow the flow and empowerment of Father Spirit to work within me, that I may continually be at rest.
---Josef on 9/7/16


//Nicole: Why should you be concerned about working on Sunday? It is just a common work day. The Sabbath is the seventh day according to the Bible - not the first. ---Jerry6593 on 9/7/16

Read the heading again. I put both days just to be polite.

Everyone knows I BELIEVE the Sabbath is Sunday the 1st day as granted by the Popes and UPHELD by Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:13-19

Anywho, when I worked Sundays, I work on Saturdays as well.

So Jerry, HOW do you violate the Sabbath?
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/7/16


Josef:

You wrote: A failure to enter into the Father's rest violates the sabbath.

Could you elaborate on just what "entering into the Father's rest" entails, and what it forbids? Is it OK to cook on the Sabbath? To turn lights off and on? To watch TV (even televangelists)? To use computers (even to look up scriptures)? To drive cars (even to church)?
---StrongAxe on 9/7/16


Nicole: Why should you be concerned about working on Sunday? It is just a common work day. The Sabbath is the seventh day according to the Bible - not the first.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day, and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable, and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD, and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


---Jerry6593 on 9/7/16


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A failure to enter into the Father's rest violates the sabbath.
---Josef on 9/6/16


//I am very glad that my midwife worked on a Sunday when I was in labour with my first child.--Rita_H on 9/6/16


AMEN!

As a Nurse I had to work every other Sunday 12 hours shifts.

I am grateful to my Church for having several Masses times including Saturday Evening (Counts for Sunday Services)

I must admit I have cleaned my home, washed and ironed clothes on Sundays.

I am trying to plan ahead with my time so I wouldn't violate the Sabbath.

I know the Sabbath is to spend all day with God as possible.


---Nicole_Lacey on 9/6/16


I have always had a problem with just how literally we are meant to take 'In it thou shalt do no work' etc.

I, personally, don't do what, i.m.o., is unnecessary work but everyone's list might be different.

To those who will say that it is meant to be absolutely literal, I would like to say I am very glad that my midwife worked on a Sunday when I was in labour with my first child.

I have never done any paid work on a Sunday (but many must do that) however I've cooked for my family on Sundays, preparing as much as is possible the night before, and left the dishes for the next day.
---Rita_H on 9/6/16


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