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Is Sola Scriptura A Theory

On a recent blog, 2 individuals stated that "Sola Scriptura." is a "Theory."

My question is what Scriptural Support is there for denying that the Scriptures "Alone." are not the "Infallible Rule for faith and practice?"

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reuben states, "Which would mean ONLY the OT books."

But Paul states, "All Scripture." not, "Some Scripture."

see, 2 Tim 3:16.
---john9346 on 9/19/16


The Scriptures are to be Timothy's guide. Not tradition. Since his Mom was Hebrew he could probably read both.

When the Apostles writings were place in Scripture. They would not teach opposite doctrines. They would not teach follow Scripture as they do from Paul written here. Then Say follow Traditions that go against what the Scripture says by words never written by them.

Sola Scriptura teaches all doctrine must be agreed to by scripture. It is only when doctrines that go against scripture that are place above scripture that there is a problem.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/19/16


Please read carefully the following:

2 Tim 3:15-17, 1 Cor 4:6,.
---john9346 on 9/19/16

John,

I have:

2 Tim 3:15-17

15, "and how from CHILDHOOD you have known ..."

1. Which would mean ONLY the OT books.

2. Timothy was half Greek and half Jew(Acts 16:1-4) would have been the Septuagint, which contains the Deuterocanonicals that John rejects, which has such teaching as Prayers to the dead(2nd Macc. 12:44-46) which Paul refers to in his writing (Heb. 11:35, 2nd Macc 7)

3. " and profitable v16
Not sufficient

1 Cor 4:6

"beyond what is written"

Perhaps John can tells us to whom is Paul speaking of,

OT? Mosaic Law? Other writing?
---Ruben on 9/19/16


strongaxe states, "I said Sola Scriptura DEPENDS on the canon, not that it IS the canon."

No sir, again, you have stated confusion on these 2 things.

Sola Scriptura depends on God.

When you hear "Sola Scriptura." you ultimately assume "Canonicity." which is not the same thing and historically you will not be able to find a church father or council who aspouse this position.

Remember, canonicity has to do with compiling "Scripture." not, "determining, deciding." what is and what is not "Scripture."
---john9346 on 9/19/16


strongaxe states, "No, because we do not directly perceive God."

Sir, do you believe God exist??

In your view, is God a theory?
---john9346 on 9/19/16




Reuben ask, "
Where in scriptures does the apostles tell us our faith will be based solely on books?" "Where in scripture does Jesus tell the apostles to write everything thing down?""Give me Book, verse , chapter that tell us this?"

Please read carefully the following:

2 Tim 3:15-17, 1 Cor 4:6, John 20:30-31.
---john9346 on 9/19/16


john934* The doctrine of Sola Scriptura teaches that the "Scriptures." are the "Final Authority." for faith and practice for the Christian.

Where in scriptures does the apostles tell us our faith will be based solely on books?

Where in scripture does Jesus tell the apostles to write everything thing down?


john9346* In other words, all traditions, thoughts, and opinions must come in to "Total Subjection." to the "Scriptures."
"

Give me Book, verse , chapter that tell us this?
---Ruben on 9/19/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: People like the Axster apparently think that the Holy Scriptures alone are not sufficient to establish God's will for His creation, but He requires the opinions of men to complete the task.

Then tell me, good sir, how you know which writings are ACTUALLY scripture? Canonicity is a tradition of men - there is no divinely-inspired table of contents handed down directly by God.

Indeed, such people even deny the clear pronouncements of scripture in order to bolster such man-made opinions.

Straw man argument. When have I ever denied "the clear pronouncements of scripture"?
---StrongAxe on 9/19/16


john9346:

No, because we do not directly perceive God. We only have documents that other humans have copied from other documents that other humans have claimed were inspired by God. We base doctrines on our TRUST in their testimony.

no church fathers ever taught ...

How about the councils that established the canon?

Remember, this is canonicity not "Sola Scriptura."

I said Sola Scriptura DEPENDS on the canon, not that it IS the canon.

Yes, I read Acts 9. Acts was not written until LONG after Damascus Road.
---StrongAxe on 9/19/16


John: Excellent points! People like the Axster apparently think that the Holy Scriptures alone are not sufficient to establish God's will for His creation, but He requires the opinions of men to complete the task. Indeed, such people even deny the clear pronouncements of scripture in order to bolster such man-made opinions.


---Jerry6593 on 9/19/16




strongaxe ask, "God, but what does this have to do with the question?"

Because God is the source of"Scripture." Scripture comes from God and God alone.

strongaxe states, "I know they are different, but you cannot base doctrines solely on scripture."

Sir, So, we cant based doctrines solely on God alone??
---john9346 on 9/18/16


strongaxe states, "
This determination is made by tradition."

First, This is a clear assertion, no church fathers ever taught, defended, or believed that they "determined or decided." what "Scripture." should or should not be to even consider such a thought by these gentleman would be classified, "Blasphemy." and "Anathema."

Remember, this is canonicity not "Sola Scriptura."
---john9346 on 9/18/16


Here again is the definition of Sola Scriptura:

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura teaches that the "Scriptures." are the "Final Authority." for faith and practice for the Christian. In other words, all traditions, thoughts, and opinions must come in to "Total Subjection." to the "Scriptures."
"
---john9346 on 9/18/16


Strongaxe and Nicole,

thank you both for dialogging on this pertinent and perpetual discussion.

A lot of your questions such as why this book and not that book is a matter of canonicity, this posting is addressing "Sola Scriptura."

Sola Scriptura is the nature or creation of "Scripture." canonicity is compiling or recognition of "Scripture."

If you both would create a posting specifically to canonicity, I would be glad to dialog with you on it.

strongaxe is in Egregious Historical Error by stating that compiling, "Scripture." is the same as the nature of "Scripture."
---john9346 on 9/18/16


strongaxe states, "Paul's experience on the Damascus Road wasn't in scripture (yet), but it still benefited him, and he didn't reject it just because it wasn't written."

Sir, have you ever read Acts 9?
---john9346 on 9/18/16


Nicole said, "So in V15 all he would have SAID as reqards to vs1-14 to cling and firm to tradition that is written.?

Ma'am, Thank you for stating in context of 2 Thes 2 that Paul explained the traditions he is talking about in vs 15.

Nicole states, "Complete as to 'addition' to oral tradition in V15."

Tell us, in 2 Tim 3:15 where is Paul talking about "Oral Tradition."

"15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

2 Tim 3:15

Note, Paul said the "Scriptures." will make one wise unto "Salvation." not "Oral Traditions."
---john9346 on 9/18/16


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Samuelbb7:

How do you KNOW the tradition that selected the canon was correct? Perhaps some book was included incorrectly, and another tradition that contradicts it is, in fact the correct one? Appeals to scripture do not, and cannot, solve this kind of problem.

Matthew 4:4 says how effective the Word of God is, but doesn't DEFINE what it is.



john9346:

God, but what does this have to do with the question?

I know they are different, but you cannot base doctrines solely on scripture until you FIRST know WHICH writings are ACTUALLY scripture. This determination is made by tradition.
---StrongAxe on 9/18/16


//Why is it taught that Tradition is more is of greater value then Scripture?---Samuelbb7

I don't know if we would use the words 'Greater value' but rather together.

Like when a doctor who prescribes a chemo drug that cure someone from cancer.

Which is greater?

The Chemo that actually killed the cancer cells?

Or the Doctor who know which chemo drug to use and the dosages of the chemo?

Because prescribing the same saving drug but with the wrong dosage that can KILL you.

You need BOTH the Doctor and the Chemo
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/18/16


I have no problem with tradition deciding to put a table of contents. Or that a group of Scholars from the Preschism Church. Before the Roman Catholic church and Orthodox existed. Choose which books are in the Bible.

But when a teaching goes against the Bible. Then that is where my problems lies. Since no human tradition is to contradict the Scripture.

Why is it taught that Tradition is more is of greater value then Scripture?

Where does this teaching come from and why would anyone want to go against the word of GOD.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/18/16


strongaxe said, "Paul never said carrots are nutritious. Does that mean he though they weren't, and we shouldn't eat them?"

First, If you will answer this question you will have your answer who is the source of all life?




Strongaxe ask, "How do you KNOW Colossians is scripture, but Laodiceans is not?"

Again, you are confusing canonicity with "Sola Scriptura." which are categorically different.

remember, "Sola Scriptura." is dealing with the nature of "Scripture." Canonicity deals with the recognition of "Scripture."
---john9346 on 9/18/16


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//You wrote: Your master can tell you to be Muslim instead of a Christian//
That never happened in Biblical slavery, because Islam didn't exist yet.//

Late to the dialogue.

**Biblical Slavery isn't what you think slavery is like in early American History---john9346 9/15/16**

You CAN'T choose your faith in Biblical times or now

//That didn't happen in the South either(although the reverse did happen)".---StrongAxe on 9/16/16

What? My mother's family WASN'T Baptist in AFRICA.

They were FORCED into the Baptist faith while in Alabama.

My mother converted to the Catholic faith at the age of 12. HOW?

She wasn't a SLAVE in 1953, thus FREE to stay a Baptist, Catholic or even an Atheist
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/18/16


//Paul's experience on the Damascus Road wasn't in scripture (yet), but it still benefited him, and he didn't reject it just because it wasn't written.//

Excellent point

//What is your definition of a table of contents being in the bible?//

John you are pretty good about answering questions.

I truly would like to know why do Protestants accept the table of contents and in it's order.

Some man had to decided which books of the Bible went first and etc.


//How do you KNOW Colossians is scripture, but Laodiceans is not?---StrongAxe on 9/17/16

Good question, also why not the epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians?

---Nicole_Lacey on 9/17/16


john9346:

Once again, elementary logic. Not saying "X is inspired" does not imply "X is not inspired". Paul never said carrots are nutritious. Does that mean he though they weren't, and we shouldn't eat them? Of course not. Paul's experience on the Damascus Road wasn't in scripture (yet), but it still benefited him, and he didn't reject it just because it wasn't written.

and the "Holy Scriptures Alone." does he speak no other way...

Again, Damascus Road, Pentecost, etc.

What is your definition of a table of contents being in the bible?

How do you KNOW Colossians is scripture, but Laodiceans is not?
---StrongAxe on 9/17/16


//he reminded them in writing as well see vs 15.---john9346

Paul was a MASTER with Speech, writing and a DEBATER.
He never wasted a word, or left out a word when needed.

He understood the ART of words and how people used them.

So in V15 all he would have SAID as reqards to vs1-14 to cling and firm to tradition that is written.

No need for him to say RATHER written or oral.

He said 'Rather' because he knew people LIKE you would make excuses to not obey non-written traditions.

2 Tim 3:16-17
..that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Complete as to 'addition' to oral tradition in V15.

Like EX: 'Here is your dessert. Now your order is COMPLETE
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/17/16


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The words of Paul in person would not contradict his written words.

Traditions of the RCC do contradict the written word. Peter says Jesus is the foundation. The RCC teaches Paul is lying. How do you reconcile this?
---Samuelbb7 on 9/16/16


nicole states, "But it ISN'T saying you can ONLY USE Scriptures for all teaching, correction and training."

Ma'am, tell us, what other authority did Paul state is, "Theopneustos." meaning God-breathe 2 Tim 3:16?

Also, note vs 17, ""That the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Note Paul says that the "Scriptures." make us "complete." and "Equip." for every good work.
---john9346 on 9/16/16


Nicole said, "If you TRULY BELIEVE in Sola Scriptura, then you have NO RIGHT to listen to the Holy Spirit when He is speaking to you in the still quiet night."

Absolutely, Nicole my friend, the "Blesses Holy Spirit of God." only speaks through the pages of the "Holy Scriptures." and the "Holy Scriptures Alone." does he speak no other way...
---john9346 on 9/16/16


Nicole states, "Again I am talking about V15 having UNWRITTEN Tradition."

I understand your point, but what you must know is Paul explained the traditions to the Thesoloanians. In other word, what he said to them orally he reminded them in writing as well see vs 15.
---john9346 on 9/16/16


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//vs 15 Paul is not discussing "Unwritten Tradition//

You are mistaken

1 Thess 2:1
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the TRADITIONS we TAUGHT you, whether by SPEECH {is not written tradition} or by LETTER." (Bible)


//that which is "Written Tradition." which he had stated in vs 1-14 what they were.--john9346

Again I am talking about V15 having UNWRITTEN Tradition

Not vs 1-14. Because it is talking about Traditions all together.

V15 is where Paul states to cling to those Traditions given that is written (v 1-14 and all Scripture)
ALSO, just in case a tradition ISN'T in written form it doesn't give you an excuse not to follow any tradition given to you by SPEECH.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/16/16


Nicole states, "I am NOT arguing about the written tradition, but the UNWRITTEN traditions (oral) Paul instructs us to OBEY."

But in vs 15 Paul is not discussing "Unwritten Tradition.", but that which is "Written Tradition." which he had stated in vs 1-14 what they were.
---john9346 on 9/16/16


strongaxe said, "When one bases all one's doctrines on scripture, it is important to know what, exactly, scripture consists of."

OOkay, now I understand. where you are coming

things to note:

1. Sola Scriptura deals with and depends on the nature of Scripture such as its orginand who wrote it..

2. Yourargument is more directed towards canonicity.

3. The Nature of Scripture and canonicity are not the same thing.
---john9346 on 9/16/16


strongaxe states, "None of the books of the bible contains a table of contents, we can't count on scripture to define scripture."

What is your definition of a table of contents being in the bible?

So when Paul stated in 2 Tim 3:16-16 referring to the "Scriptures." he they were, "Theopneustos." was he telling Timothy to not trust the Scriptures?
---john9346 on 9/16/16


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//so 2 Tim 3:16-17, " "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training..
Is it your position that this isn't teaching, "Sola Scriptura."---john9346

That Passage is ONLY stating ALL Scriptures should be used to correction, teaching and training for righteous.

But it ISN'T saying you can ONLY USE Scriptures for all teaching, correction and training.

If you TRULY BELIEVE in Sola Scriptura, then you have NO RIGHT to listen to the Holy Spirit when He is speaking to you in the still quiet night.

You have to find whatever the Holy Spirit commanded you privately IN THE BIBLE to make sure the Holy Spirit's Command is correct.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/16/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: Your master can tell you to be Muslim instead of a Christian.

That never happened in Biblical slavery, because Islam didn't exist yet.

That didn't happen in the South either (although the reverse did happen).

The RCC can because She kept them until today!

Protestantism exists today because various reformers protested that the RCC was doing certain things that had no basis in scripture, and in fact contradicted what scripture taught - and they instead followed the instruction "get out from among them".
---StrongAxe on 9/16/16


//Biblical Slavery isn't what you think slavery is like in early American History.//

Tell that to Joseph!

One isn't FREE to do as he wishes!

Your master can tell you to be Muslim instead of a Christian.
ISN'T that enough to cry to God day and night for deliverance?

You might have the finest clothes, food and mansion for a home.

Is all that a fair TRADE for freedom of religion?

//he tells you what they are (the traditions)--john9346

V15 is the topic.
I am NOT arguing about the written tradition, but the UNWRITTEN traditions (oral) Paul instructs us to OBEY.

How can you obey is you will not accept anything traditional NOT written?

The RCC can because She kept them until today!
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/16/16


john9346:

You wrote: What do you mmean by how, exactly, does one define "Scripture"?"
Could you be more specific as to what you are asking??


When one bases all one's doctrines on scripture, it is important to know what, exactly, scripture consists of. Which books are part of scripture, and which books are not? None of the books of the bible contains a table of contents, we can't count on scripture to define scripture. Thus, our canon of scripture is, itself, defined by extra-scriptural tradition. So, like it or not, even Sola Scriptura depends on non-scriptural tradition for its very existence.
---StrongAxe on 9/16/16


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strongaxe ask, "Yes, but how, exactly, does one define "Scripture"?"

What do you mmean by how, exactly, does one define "Scripture"?"

Could you be more specific as to what you are asking??
---john9346 on 9/15/16


Nicole states, "Sir, we are talking about V15. You are the one who gave an odd response to that Passage. I was only showing how illogical your response you gave to me."

First, Biblical Slavery isn't what you think slavery is like in early American History.


I want to stay on topic Just to make sure there is understanding, Paul explained the traditions he taught the Thesoloanians. In other words, he didn't just mention the traditions he stated what they were see 2 Thes 2:1-14 he tells you what they are (the traditions)
---john9346 on 9/15/16


Nicole,

Let me make sure I understand you correctly so 2 Tim 3:16-17, "
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
"That the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Is it your position that this isn't teaching, "Sola Scriptura."
---john9346 on 9/15/16


Good points Strong Ax and John.

Nicole. The traditions would not contradict the words of Scripture. GOD does not teach that you don't trust the traditions given by men and say you are to trust traditions given by men.

Matthew 15:7-9 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/15/16


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Nicole_Lacey:

It is easy to vet scripture, by examining manuscripts going back centuries or millenia. With oral traditions, you can only ask witnesses when they are alive - like documents that degrade after 50 years.

One can compare current scriptures with ancient manuscripts to see how much has changed. You cannot do this with oral tradition.

We have only the word of those passing the traditions that they are accurate. Do you accept Jewish oral tradition as being on the same level as old testament scripture? I doubt it.


john9346:

Yes, but how, exactly, does one define "Scripture"?
---StrongAxe on 9/15/16


//we are discussing 2 Thes 2:15,//

Sir, we are talking about V15. You are the one who gave an odd response to that Passage. I was only showing how illogical your response you gave to me.

//"we TAUGHT you," Not will teach you. taught not will teach the word in vs 15 taught is pass tense not Future-tense.---john9346 9/13/16

Slavery was in the pass tense and Paul didn't tell the Churches to stop slavery in his WRITTEN letters.

//The question is in this chapter, does Paul tell us what are the traditions he taught the Thesoloanians?---john9346 9/15/16

Yes, and the RCC has the oral traditions Paul taught the Thessalonians.

It is you all who reject those tradition because it ISN'T in written form.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/15/16


definition:

The doctrine of "Sola Scriptura." is the teaching that the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone are sufficient to function as the "Rule of faith" for the Church. All that one must believe to be a Christian is found in Scripture and in no other "Source."
---john9346 on 9/15/16


"
The Bible claims to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith for the Christian Church. The Scriptures are not in need of any supplement. Their authority comes from their nature as God-breathed revelation. Their authority is not dependent upon man, Church or council. The Scriptures are self-consistent, self-interpreting, and self-authenticating. The Christian Church looks at the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the Church is always subject to the Word, and is constantly reformed thereby."

Dr. James White Christian Theologian
---john9346 on 9/15/16


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"But 1 Thess 2:15 states Tradition in all FORMS!

Please address this Passage:

1 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the TRADITIONS we TAUGHT you, whether by SPEECH or by LETTER."

Well, written forms would include traditions which are written in scripture > including >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, one tradition is how we submit to how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in our "hearts" with His own peace.
---com7fy8 on 9/15/16


nicole states, "
You read the other Gospels with other stories about Jesus not found in the Gospel of John because John himself said there are more events about Jesus NOT in his Gospel."

First, John the apostle never said his own gospel.

To stay on topic, John 21:25 is not even talking about "Oral Tradition."

John tells us what is the "Greatest Importance." that is this, "31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name."
Jn 20:31.
---john9346 on 9/15/16


Nicole ask, "So because Paul didn't force Slave owners to stop having Slaves, it is OKAY to have Slaves?"

Ma'am, we are discussing 2 Thes 2:15, " Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

The question is in this chapter, does Paul tell us what are the traditions he taught the Thesoloanians?
---john9346 on 9/15/16


strongaxe tells us, "The Bible, itself, does not actually articulate the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura"."

But 2 Tim 3:16-17 states, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
"That the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work."

2 Tim 3:16-17.
---john9346 on 9/15/16


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//But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Like in Jn 21:25 John the apostle isn't talking about tradition, but "Scripture."---john9346

According to THAT logic, you ONLY need the Gospel of John.

Since John states about Jesus' miracles, life, death and Resurrection in his own Gospel, why are you reading the Gospel of Mark, Matthew and Luke?

Those Gospels are not written in the Gospel of John.

You read the other Gospels with other stories about Jesus not found in the Gospel of John because John himself said there are more events about Jesus NOT in his Gospel

JOHN 21:25
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/14/16


strongaxe states, "Yes, I have. "All scripture is beneficial" does not at all imply "All non-scripture is non-beneficial""

Sir, this is not the teaching of the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura teaches that the "Scriptures." are the "Final Authority." for faith and practice for the Christian. In other words, all traditions, thoughts, and opinions must come in to "Total Subjection." to the "Scriptures."
---john9346 on 9/14/16


strongaxe states, "Also, many were called heretics for believing scripture but interpreting it incorrectly (in the opinions of those who called them that)."

If you could be more specific that would help everyone.

When ever anyone brings to the "Scriptures.", their own traditions, opinions, thoughts, ideas, and another authority the result will always be misinterpretations leading to "False Doctrine."
---john9346 on 9/14/16


Strongaxe,

The point of "Sola Scriptura." is the "Scriptures." are "Sufficient." not just "Beneficial."
---john9346 on 9/14/16


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//Paul states, "we TAUGHT you," Not will teach you.---john9346

So because Paul didn't force Slave owners to stop having Slaves, it is OKAY to have Slaves?

//To teach contradictory doctrines would be wrong---Samuelbb7

RCC has NEVER taught anything contradictory to the Bible, but you all.

EX. Jesus said in John 6 "This is My Body and Blood" RCC agrees

Not you all. You say: 'No, Jesus is saying it is a symbol of His Body and Blood.'

The NT states Baptism is needed and the Apostles Baptizes everyone.

RCC continues with Baptism for Salvation.

Not you, but replace Baptism with the 'sinner's prayer.

Which ISN'T in the Bible and none of the Apostle speak of such prayer!
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/14/16


john9346:

Yes, I have. "All scripture is beneficial" does not at all imply "All non-scripture is non-beneficial", in the same way that "milk is good food" does not imply "everything non-dairy is bad food". Such a conclusion is a most elementary logical fallacy.

It saddens me that on these blogs (as well as a lot of other places), so many people keep making the most basic errors in logic, and reach absurd conclusions as a result - and so much time is wasted in arguing about total nonsense.

Also, many were called heretics for believing scripture but interpreting it incorrectly (in the opinions of those who called them that).
---StrongAxe on 9/14/16


The Bible, itself, does not actually articulate the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura"."

Have you ever read 2 Tim 3:16-17?
---john9346 on 9/14/16


The only individuals in Church History who didn't believe the "Scriptures." were the "Final Authority." for life and doctrine for the Christians were classified heretics.
---john9346 on 9/14/16


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Amen John.

Nicole why would traditions from the Apostle contradict the words of the Apostles? That does not make sense. To teach contradictory doctrines would be wrong.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

GOD gave Ten Commandments not suggestions.
---Samuelbb7 on 9/13/16


Nicole states, "John even states that ALL of Jesus' Words and Actions could NOT be written."

Ma'am, note, John the apostle states an all most identical statement in Jn 20:31-31. prior

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Note, vs 30 the word, "Written." vs 31, the word, "Written."

Like in Jn 21:25 John the apostle isn't talking about tradition, but "Scripture."
---john9346 on 9/13/16


Nicole states, "So, Paul is telling us that we should stand firm or cling to ALL TRADITIONS even if it isn't written."

Nicole, note, Paul states, "we TAUGHT you," Not will teach you. taught not will teach the word in vs 15 taught is pass tense not Future-tense.
---john9346 on 9/13/16


strongaxe:

1. "The Bible, itself, does not actually articulate the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura"." Can you give me a definition??Sir, tell me, do you understand the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura."

2. "Long-standing tradition, as the Bible itself contains no divinely-given table of contents."Strongaxe,

Well, it would depend on what you mean by "Divinely divinely-given table of contents."

The books of the bible are Self-authenticating this is clear stated and noted in Paul referring to the "Scriptures." as "Theopneustos."
---john9346 on 9/13/16


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strongaxe states, "If you reject tradition, you must necessarily reject the very canon of scripture itself, and when you do that, you have absolutely nothing left.
This leads to a contradiction, so the initial assumption that all tradition is unreliable must be false."

Sir, you just contradicted what you Previously Stated on a PriorBlog, "The big problems with traditions are they cannot be corroborated (i.e. they witness to themselves), and they are subject to continuous mutation as they are passed down. At least scriptures only mutate when copied. We have manuscripts thousands of years old, but few witnesses over a century."

---StrongAxe on 8/23/16
---john9346 on 9/13/16


//Nicole cites John 21:25, "25 ***Where do you see, "Tradition." in this verse when it is specifically referring to that which was "Written?" ---john9346 on 9/13/16

1 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the TRADITIONS we TAUGHT you, whether by SPEECH or by LETTER.

That's your whole problem.

It isn't JUST written materials.

John even states that ALL of Jesus' Words and Actions could NOT be written.

So, Paul is telling us that we should stand firm or cling to ALL TRADITIONS even if it isn't written.

Don't you understand what 'oral' means?

Ex: we had an oral agreement, which means there isn't a written contract.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/13/16


john9346:

The Bible, itself, does not actually articulate the doctrine of "Sola Scriptura".

A very good refutation of it is this:

Suppose we disregard all tradition as unreliable, accepting only what is in the Bible. How do we know what books are in the bible, and what aren't? Long-standing tradition, as the Bible itself contains no divinely-given table of contents.

If you reject tradition, you must necessarily reject the very canon of scripture itself, and when you do that, you have absolutely nothing left.

This leads to a contradiction, so the initial assumption that all tradition is unreliable must be false.
---StrongAxe on 9/13/16


Nicole said, "John, I gave you KJV with the word 'men' used. Match KJV with your translation."

Ma'am, the following is from the kjv:

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes, that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." 1 Cor 4:6

Note, what Paul says, "above that which is written,"
---john9346 on 9/13/16


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I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, Do not go beyond what is written. (1 Corinthians 4:6)

Other translations: "NOTHING beyond what is written."

Not that I accept human testimony, but I mention it that you may be saved. (John 5:34)

There is a human factor.

We nullify the word of God for the sake of our tradition. (Matthew 15:6)

The Bible is the best thing the church has, yet who follows it? In the New Testament, Jesus often asks, "WHAT IS WRITTEN?" and often answers, "IT IS WRITTEN...." So that is the best we have. And yet we replace the Bible with other teachings.
---mike4879 on 9/13/16


Nicole,

Paul explains the traditions he taught the Thesoloanians

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from uswhether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letterasserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Dont let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Gods temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


Also vs13-14
---john9346 on 9/13/16


Nicole cites John 21:25, "25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen."

Where do you see, "Tradition." in this verse when it is specifically referring to that which was "Written?"
---john9346 on 9/13/16


John, thank you for answering.

//You must first ask what traditions is Paul referencing?//

No you must first ask what ORAL tradition is Paul referencing?

//Paul tells the Thes to standfast and to hold to the traditions that were, "Taught." to them not will be taught to them. ---john9346

You left out the most important part of that Passage:

whether by SPEECH or by LETTER."

Remember John 21:25?

There are many more things that Jesus did. If all of them were written down, I suppose not even the world itself would have space for the books that would be written.

That's the oral materials handed down from the Apostles through the RCC today.

The Bible is the written tradition.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/13/16


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John, I gave you KJV with the word 'men' used. Match KJV with your translation

//Nicole, why did you use scripture to refute scripture only?//

Because you all ONLY want Scripture as the ONLY tool for debate.

//If scripture is not the final authority, then you must be able to use what is the final authority to refute scripture only.//

I did with 1 Thess 2:15.
That states you are NOT TO USE Scripture only.

Read it again. The Bible itself is telling you to Oral tradition as well

//But thanks for using scripture to try to prove it isn't scripture only.
Irony at it's finest.---micha9344 on 9/12/16

Your welcome.

Now obey 1 Thess 2:15 you don't have any excuses.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/12/16


Nicole ask, "
Please address this Passage:

1 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the TRADITIONS we TAUGHT you, whether by SPEECH or by LETTER."

Sure!

Points to note:

1. You must first ask what traditions is Paul referencing?

2. Paul tells the Thesoloanians to standffast and to hold to the traditions that were, "Taught." to them not will be taught to them.
---john9346 on 9/12/16


Nicole,

Again,

You quote certain parts.

Here is the entirety.

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes, that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another." 1 Cor 4:6
---john9346 on 9/12/16


Nicole,

You quoted only parts of 2 Tim 3:16-17.

Here is the entire Scripture:

"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"

"That the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work."

2 Tim 3:16-17.



---john9346 on 9/12/16


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Nicole, why did you use scripture to refute scripture only?
If scripture is not the final authority, then you must be able to use what is the final authority to refute scripture only.
But thanks for using scripture to try to prove it isn't scripture only.
Irony at it's finest.
---micha9344 on 9/12/16


Yes and it isn't in those Passages EITHER

I believe your translation only has this: 1 Cor 4:6 "Do not go beyond what is written."

But KJV has what my Bible has the word 'MEN'.

V6..that ye might learn in us not to think of MEN (NOT THE BIBLE) above that which is written,..

2 Timothy 3:16-17. All Scripture..is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting..

Only speaks to Scripture being USEFUL in the tasks of rebuking and etc.

It is DOES NOT say to ONLY use Scripture.

But 1 Thess 2:15 states Tradition in all FORMS!

Please address this Passage:

1 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the TRADITIONS we TAUGHT you, whether by SPEECH or by LETTER.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/12/16


strongaxe said, "Sola Scriptura isn't MY Theory. I have been criticizing it for years."

Sir, how can you criticize "Sola Scriptura?" when you have Previously Said that you are a "Biblical Christian."
---john9346 on 9/12/16


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