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ProLife ProChoice

I had an interesting discussion, a couple of days ago, with a husband-wife pastor team. What is the difference (if any) between being Pro-Life and being Pro-Choice?

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 ---Leon on 9/27/16
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Nicole_Lacey:

He will eventually, but that will take much time, money, effort, and anguish. He man has ALREADY suffered 10 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. How much more should he suffer? A felon, most places won't hire him, so he can't afford decent lawyers. Why should he have to keep begging for justice against a state that has ALREADY given him more than a decade of injustice? It already OWES him recompense that he will never get back. His own lawyer (probably a public defender) was incompetent by agreeing to suppress evidence. Why should he keep paying for that? Even his PROSECUTORS say he is innocent!

The Governor CAN'T Pardon EVERYONE.

He doesn't want to pardon ANYONE.
---StrongAxe on 10/11/16


Again, EVERYONE claims they are guilty.

Remember Pontius Pilate TRIED to pardon Jesus because HE knew Jesus was innocent.

//Cooper is cleary innocent//

Then why WON'T he go to the appeal courts to clear him?

He just wants a Pardon because he is guilty.

That's like asking the Judge to throw out the case before it begins.

Ever heard of 'Day in court'?

Cooper isn't better than you or I.

Why should he get SPECIAL treatment?

He needs to go through the SAME legal avenue as the rest of us.

The Governor CAN'T Pardon EVERYONE.

Cooper was given his day in court, tried and FOUND guilty.

His ONLY OPTION is to go to Appeals Court which HE REFUSES.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/11/16


You openly teach the violation of God's Law.

You claim that love to your neighbor is the ONLY law of judgement, and then openly violate it.

You see disobedience to God's stated Law as a virtue, and obedience to it a sin. ---Jerry6593 on 10/10/16


You have levied 3 accusations against me. Prove each one with the words and Scripture I responded with. I keep copies of everything I write as proof of what I said.

If you can't prove your charges, I expect a Law abiding believer like yourself to recant and tell the truth.
---aservant on 10/11/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You STILL miss the difference between people who ARE innocent and those FOUND innocent under the law. Jesus was innocent, yet found guilty.

Cooper is cleary innocent, yet Pence said "I want you to go through years more expensive appeals that will have an obvious result, rather than saving you the trouble, which is in my power."

Many people go to jail because people have insufficient defense. Public defenders are overworked, and often get case files only minutes before a court date - so the best they can do is negotiate a guilty plea, even for innocents.
---StrongAxe on 10/11/16


Innocent people DON'T need Pardoning.

It's as if I tell a doctor to give me CHEMO because another doctor told me I have cancer.

The doctor: No because I am not the one who dx you with cancer. Go back to the doctor who dx you for the chemo.

That's what Pence is saying!

'they will not sign it until his attorneys can prove that he has exhausted all other avenues within the justice system'

WHICH Cooper REFUSES to do.

BTW, that article states Cooper's own ATTORNEY is against him as well.

"Tests on the hat came back negative for Coopers DNA, but that evidence was excluded from the trial after Coopers DEFENSE attorney AGREED to a stipulation that the hat WOULDN'T be USED as EVIDENCE."
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/10/16




Nicole_Lacey:

You see why I asked. We were talking about Rapists.

Yes. Sorry, my confusion. His crime wasn't rape. I confused that with the previous discussion which was about rapists. I was talking about Pence refusing to to pardon someone who had been proved innocent.

The APPEAL SYSTEM works, but NOT for GUITLY people! BTW no DNA proved Cooper innocent as you said.

Google: "Keith Cooper" dna
There are many articles on topic. The very first one is: "Mike Pence Denies Pardon Request to Man Exonerated By DNA Evidence 'Because of the process'"
---StrongAxe on 10/10/16


server: "Yet, I bet God sees what I am doing as Love."

I doubt that. You openly teach the violation of God's Law. Here's what God says about YOU:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

You claim that love to your neighbor is the ONLY law of judgement, and then openly violate it. Hypocrite!

You see disobedience to God's stated Law as a virtue, and obedience to it a sin. Your thinking is upside-down.


---Jerry6593 on 10/10/16


//"Keith Cooper"---.StrongAxe

You see why I asked. We were talking about Rapists.

Evidence was found to exonerate the man.---StrongAxe 10/7/16

He never raped ANYONE...DNA evidence proved that.---StrongAxe 10/8/16

1997, Keith Cooper was wrongly convicted of attempted MURDER and ARMED ROBBERY...The man who was FOUND to be his ACCOMPLICE and eventual CO-DEFENDANT, Christopher Parish, was sentenced to 30 years, while Cooper was sentenced to 40 years. Cooper still CLAIMS that he and his alleged accomplice have never met.

2005, and Parishs conviction was OVERTURNED by the Indiana Court of Appeals.

The APPEAL SYSTEM works, but NOT for GUITLY people!
BTW no DNA proved Cooper innocent as you said.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/9/16


Nicole_Lacey:

Instead of constantly arguing hypothetical law with me here, just google: Pence refuses pardon or "Keith Cooper" for the specific details on the case from people who actually know what is going on.

NO to playing god.

No. "Playing God" is usurping powers God alone has. Clemency is a power explicitly granted to governors.

Why should a Rapist get clemency from anyone if he was tried by a peer of 12 and sentenced by a real Judge?

You STILL don't get it. Because he was WRONGLY CONVICTED. It happens. He did NOT RAPE ANYONE. HE DID NOT RAPE ANYONE! How many times do I need to say it? Read the story! The prosecutor who prosecuted him recommends clemency!
---StrongAxe on 10/8/16


servant: If your love . . . is no more than shown here, then you will be in trouble . . .

Jesus is both Love and Truth. I use His Word to demonstrate the same Truth and Love that Jesus shows.

I am trying to show you the way out of your cursed state. I doubt you would see me pulling you from a burning car as Love. Yet, I bet God sees what I am doing as Love. Why don't you ask Him?



You don't seem to be a SERVANT of Jesus!---Jerry6593 on 10/8/16


Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
---aservant on 10/8/16




//DNA evidence proved that. Unfortunately, that science was not available at the time of his trial.//

There has been innocent people behind bars for decades until DNA evidence PROVED they were innocent and were RELEASED.

There are number of times you can appeal your case, not a time limit. (not statue of limitation)

//He is a governer, with the power of clemency - to balance errors in the legal system.--StrongAxe

NO to playing god.

Why should a Rapist get clemency from anyone if he was tried by a peer of 12 and sentenced by a real Judge?

How is that fair to us REGULAR FOLKS?

Please cite the person wrongly prisoned in Indiana and Pence refuses to overturn 12 jurors judgment and a Judge sentence.
---Nicole_Lace on 10/8/16


Nicole_Lacey:

No no no! He never raped ANYONE. He was WRONGLY CONVICTED. DNA evidence proved that. Unfortunately, that science was not available at the time of his trial.

it would be re-adjudicated in what we call APPEALS COURTS.

Appeals courts revisit convictions on procedural grounds, and there is usually a time limit.

Pence isn't a judge.

He is a governer, with the power of clemency - to balance errors in the legal system.

How would you like it if President Obama pardoned someone who killed your child?

I would love it if the person was innocent and didn't actually kill my child.
---StrongAxe on 10/8/16


servant: If your love of your neighbor is no more than shown on this blog, then you will be in trouble if that is the law by which you are judged.

You don't seem to be a SERVANT of Jesus!



---Jerry6593 on 10/8/16


//He was paroled, the conviction is on his record.//

Again because he is a Rapist.

//A pardon would remove that, so he wouldn't be an ex-felon.//

Why would you want to pardon a Rapist?

//FOUND guilty. New evidence exonerates him, but irrelevant unless matter is re-adjudicated.--StrongAxe

Found guilty beacause he ISN'T innocent.

If the so call 'new evidence' is legit it would be re-adjudicated in what we call APPEALS COURTS.

That court system is for people found guilty in error.

Pence isn't a judge.

NO ONE should have the power to give a felon a pass just because he or she wants to play God.

How would you like it if President Obama pardoned someone who killed your child?
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/7/16


Nicole_Lacey:

He was paroled, the conviction is on his record. A pardon would remove that, so he wouldn't be an ex-felon.

FOUND guilty. New evidence exonerates him, but irrelevant unless matter is re-adjudicated. Pence refuses - he thinks law is more important than justice.

You want Rapists completely free?

Falsely accused. He NEVER raped anyone.

Rapists to PRETEND they are transgender

That is illegal, even WITHOUT the new laws. Again, that has never happened, even in states without such laws.

It is primarily Republicans who have this kind of panic and push for such laws.

Paul gave only 4 commandments to give to new converts, and Sabbath wasn't one of them.
---StrongAxe on 10/7/16


. . . judge ME . . . (Col 2:16)
God . . . will judge us all by THAT law. (James 2:12)
---Jerry6593 on 10/7/16


I spoke how the SDA (you), speak against anyone whose Sabbath is not on Saturday, not against your Sabbath.

Jam 2:12 (EMTV) . . . those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

From JFB:
the law of liberty (Jam_1:25), judged by the Gospel law of love . . . The law of liberty . . . frees us from the curse of the law . . .

Judged by the law of liberty (NT greatest commandments), not by the OT Law that curses.

You have been given the Truth. Rejecting the Truth will leave you cursed.
---aservant on 10/7/16


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If he is exonerated he isn't on Parole.

If he is on parole he is guilty!
But the State chose to show MERCY to him so he isn't finishing his sentence behind bars.

Parole isn't enough?

You want Rapists completely free?

//Pence refused KNOWING HE WAS PROVEN INNOCENT.//

If he is PROVEN INNOCENT he DOESN'T need PARDONING!

//Republicans "feel" all transgender are rapists.//

No we feel Democrats are allowing Rapists to PRETEND they are transgender in order to enter female bathrooms to rape women!

//Judging everyone in a group based on characteristics of some is called PREJUDICE. ---StrongAxe

It isn't nice, is it?

Remember you STARTED bashing Republicans. Matthew 7:1
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/7/16


//He expects us to monitor others-me
Where does it say that?//

Exodus 20:8-10

//we must NOT judge others, nor may we allow anyone else to judge us. Otherwise, we disregard Paul--StrongAxe

Right, and Paul FORGOT his 1st letter to the Corinthians?

1 Cor 5:1-4
V2 And you are ARROGANT! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let HIM who has done this be REMOVED from among you.
V3..I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already PRONOUNCED JUDGEMENT ON THE ONE who did such a thing...v5 you are to DELIVER this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Are you saying Only Jews have to obey the Sabbath and the other 10 Commandments?
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/6/16


Nicole_Lacey:

These women were raped - and their rapists went to jail.

Justice isn't based on feelings!

Evidence was found to exonerate the man. Parole board agreed and released him, but crime is still on his record. He asked Pence for pardon, but Pence refused KNOWING HE WAS PROVEN INNOCENT. Excuse is to "uphold law and order". Hogwash, as punishing known innocents is not just.

Democrats wants to live by feelings (i.e. Riots, Abortions, Euthanasia, 'All men are Rapists' and the like)

Yet Republicans "feel" all transgender are rapists.

Thus WHY I don't TRUST Democrats!

Judging everyone in a group based on characteristics of some is called PREJUDICE.
---StrongAxe on 10/7/16


servant: Repeating a lie will not make it true.

Because you are lawless (not under the law), then you have a carnal mind and thus don't have the Holy Spirit. (Rom 8:7)

Why do you continue to judge ME for my keeping of the Sabbath? (Col 2:16)

God wrote the Law. God will judge us all by THAT law. (James 2:12)



---Jerry6593 on 10/7/16


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. . . When have I judged you . . . God judges you . . . You also cite Rom 8:9 ---Jerry6593 on 10/6/16

Col 2:16 (GW) . . . let no one judge you . . . about the observance of . . . weekly worship days.

SDA people always judge Sunday worshipers, because SDA rejects our NEW covenant.

YOU ARE UNDER LAW, and are still cursed, because you lack the Spirit.

Gal 5:18 . . .led of the Spirit = not under law, AND (Rom 8:14) ye are the Sons of God.

Citing Rom 8:9 shows having the Holy Spirit proves
a) I am not under Law, and
b) the Law is written by the Spirit, on my heart (2Cor 3:3), and
b) that I belong to Jesus
---aservant on 10/6/16


//What proof do you need? Actual photos?//

The Law needs PROOF!

We can't put you in prison just because a woman CLAIMS you raped her!

//Pence refuses to pardon a wrongly convicted man, even though he knows he is innocent.//

Justice isn't based on feelings!

People STILL believe OJ is guilty (Me included) but the State didn't prove it!

IT WORKS BOTH WAYS!

Democrats wants to live by feelings (i.e. Riots, Abortions, Euthanasia, 'All men are Rapists' and the like)

Republicans believe in Reality, Objective facts, common sense, Law and Order

//I don't trust Democrats.--Me

I trust people based on word and deed, not label--SrongAxe

Thus WHY I don't TRUST Democrats!
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/6/16


Jerry6593:

You wrote: It is God who judges you - not me.

You don't tell someone "God is judging you" without you first judging them and finding them worthy of divine judgment.

God was quite clear about the penalty for adultery, yet when Jesus declined to judge the woman caught in adultery. Just because God said "thou shalt not" does not necessarily mean he automatically judges everyone for every infraction, even major ones.

... then you don't have the Holy Spirit ...

So many people here are so quick to judge other people's spiritual condition. Beware! Pharisees did the same thing to Jesus, attributing his works to Satan - and Jesus called that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
---StrongAxe on 10/6/16


servant: You are confused. When have I judged you? You cite Col 12:26 which is part of Paul's admonition to not judge others keeping of feast days, circumcision, etc.. I cite God's Ten Commandments which He wrote with His own finger. It is God who judges you - not me.

You also cite Rom 8:9 as proof of your connection with the Holy Spirit, but just above this verse, we find:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So if you are against God's Law, then you don't have the Holy Spirit, and you are a SERVANT of another entity.


---Jerry6593 on 10/6/16


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Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: He expects us to monitor others...

Where does it say that? With respect to the Sabbath, we must NOT judge others, nor may we allow anyone else to judge us. Otherwise, we disregard Paul.

Collossians 2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Exodus 20:8-10 was written to Jews, not us. "nor any FOREIGNER residing in your towns" gives no jurisdiction over anyone else's towns.
---StrongAxe on 10/5/16


Not so! We believe ONLY what the Bible says . . . What church do you belong to? If you're not ashamed to say. ---Jerry6593 on 10/5/16

No, you do NOT believe all the Bible says. Example: Colossians 2:16.

(GW) Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days.

SDA Heresies are easily found on the Internet.

I am a servant of Jesus and have His Holy Spirit living inside me. I attend many churches, member of none.

You should be ashamed that you lack the Holy Spirit, the proof of being a Chrisian. Rom 8:9
---aservant on 10/5/16


StrongAxe, free Will does NOT give PERMISSION or SUPPORT to allow another person to choose evil or do wrong.

//Pro Choice isn't an option.

If I think it is WRONG to steal your wallet, it doesn't mean I can say "But, it's the other person's CHOICE to steal your wallet."

Pro-Theft.

When God gives us a commandment He expects us to monitor others in obeying that same commandment.

Exodus 20:8-10 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it YOU SHALL NOT do any work, neither YOU, nor your SON or DAUGHTER, nor your male or female SERVANT, nor your animals, nor any FOREIGNER residing in your towns.
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/5/16


Nicole_Lacey:

What proof do you need? Actual photos? And I don't distinguish rape by party.

Hillary... even though she said she knew he was guilty.

Pence refuses to pardon a wrongly convicted man, even though he knows he is innocent.

I don't trust Democrats.

I trust people based on word and deed, not label.

You give men an out as a Transgender in order to rape women

Many states allow transgender people to use restrooms of choice - and there are NO cases of transgender people raping woman there. This is fear of a non-existent problem.

You want abortions because you all know more girls are aborted than boy.

I don't want abortions at ALL. You over-generalize.
---StrongAxe on 10/5/16


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aservant [Of whom, one may ask?]: "SDA disbelieve what God says as the Author of the Bible."

Not so! We believe ONLY what the Bible says. We believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament - not just the New. Thus, when Jesus wrote with His own hand "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy", we obey. Do you? What church do you belong to? If you're not ashamed to say.


---Jerry6593 on 10/5/16


SDA disbelieve what God says as the Author of the Bible. Thus, they are not Christians since they are not followers of Christ, but have faith in their own works. They are followers of Ellen G. White, whose prophetic utterings are in opposition to what God has said.

Little the SDA folks are doing honors the Father. He must be worshiped in Spirit (which SDA do not have), and Truth (which SDA do not have).

Like many others who purport to be Christian, but do not pass the most basic Christian litmus test, by taking positions in opposition to God's stated position. No surprise the deceived believe they are more knowledgeable than God, and take pro-choice positions.
---aservant on 10/4/16


WOW, StrongAxe

Do you see how you Democrats are a bunch of Hypocrites?

You have been defending women who CLAIM they have been rape without proof, but you DRAW the line when it comes to Republican Women?

Why am I surprised?

Your Leader Hilary Clinton defended a man who raped a 12 year old girl and laughed about getting him off even though she said she knew he was guilty.

That 12 year old girl can NEVER have children because of the brutal rape.

I am a Republican Woman and I don't trust Democrats.

You give men an out as a Transgender in order to rape women

You want abortions because you all know more girls are aborted than boy.

Why do Democrats hate women so much?
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/4/16


aservant:

God tells us what choices are correct, but allows us to make bad ones, unlike laws of nature, which cannot be disobeyed.

Joshua said, "CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".

disobedience is punished. Freewill is not.

No. Free will gives us the ability to make choices, and live by the consequences of those choices. Bad choices usually invoke bad consequences - e.g. punishment.

PRO-choice... If they normally chose life, they would not be in this grouping.

Many people are against abortion (i.e. normally choose life), yet pro-choice - i.e. they think abortion is bad, yet think the mother should have the choice.
---StrongAxe on 10/4/16


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My answer is confusing. I will clear it up.

Does not God's word give us freedom of choice?

No. His Word gives us commands and statutes, not suggestions.


Isn't Pro-Life a choice?

Yet, this still involves a choice.

Yes, technically it is a choice because a decision is made.
---aservant on 10/4/16


Does not God's word give us freedom of choice? Isn't Pro-Life a choice? ---Leon on 9/27/16

No. He gives us commands, not suggestions.

Does He often stop us from disobeying? No. Some think this is freewill, but they are mistaken, because disobedience is punished. Freewill is not.

PRO-Life is one who supports not interrupting the natural pregnancy process, until birth. Yet, this still involves a choice. This view includes no punishment from God.

PRO-choice should be named PRO-My Right to Murder My Unborn Baby, which is punished by God. If they normally chose life, they would not be in this grouping.
---aservant on 10/4/16


Nicole_Lacey:

The top few articles have direct quotes from involved women.

SEEK isn't the same as Granted

Many women are forced to waste much time, money, and mental anguish in court fighting to prevent this from happening.

Maybe you can cite a bunch of made up sob stories to them, but I live in the real world.

Like Republicans having meltdowns about transgender people attacking women in restrooms - which has NEVER happened. Republican politicians molesting children happens much more often.

I heard about elderly eating cat food in the '60s, but not for many decades.

Ramen noodles are now my primary diet.

The Daily Show quotes real news that is stupid and mocks it.
---StrongAxe on 10/4/16


I don't believe the stories. Cite articles. I know you are leaving something out as before.

//others argue no rapist would seek parental rights, but.-StrongAxe

SEEK isn't the same as Granted and Rebecca doesn't name ONE CASE. She doesn't because it NEVER HAPPENED!

Cite the articles so I can read it.
I am not a Democrat! I am NOT stupid.
Maybe you can cite a bunch of made up sob stories to them, but I live in the real world.

Just as you Democrats claim poor women would be force to eat cat food.

Do you Democrats realize how much cat food cost?
There hundreds of human food that cost less.
Every heard of Ramen noodles?

The Daily Show is a Comedy News Show that airs on the Comedy Channel
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/3/16


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Nicole_Lacey:

From above search:

Salon: A raped 14-year old wanted to put child up for adoption, but rapist dad refused unless she dropped charges.

Raped college senior wrote, others argue no rapist would seek parental rights, but her experience and others proves otherwise.

Vice: Rebecca Kiessling dealt with several cases where rape survivors lost partial custody to their attackers.

14-year-old ... faced with 16 years of being ... forced to make joint decisions ... would have to work her life around future court dates with her rapist and spend thousands of dollars she didn't have in legal fees.

Daily Show: "Were looking at at least 10,000 potential custody battles every single year"
---StrongAxe on 10/3/16


Thanks. NOT ONE Rapist GOT visitation!

That article is about rapists who DARED to ask for custody/visitation.

No rapist was GRANTED visitation rights. Find one

//gets off because he claims it's consensual//

Because he is FOUND not guilty!

Do you know how many women make FALSE rape reports?

//or waits for the statute of limitations,//

He ISN'T a rapist in the first place.

You act as if the police WAIT for the statute of limitation before arresting him? Immediate arrest occurs

The minute a woman reports a rape it freezes time until the man is found if he hides.

//SOMONE's rights are violated--StrongAxe

One only endures 9 months and the other has to DIE! It isn't the same!
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/2/16


Nicole_Lacey:

Under American law, she does, and they do. Google: rapist "visitation rights"

If he's convicted, or gets off because he claims it's consensual, or waits for the statute of limitations, he can demand a blood test.

Read what I wrote. BOTH are innocent, and no matter which way it goes, SOMONE's rights are violated.

Wrong Every baby is stained with original sin.

Which means it's not innocent. Otherwise, you distinguish "sin you're responsible for" vs. "sin you're not responsible for", and if you allow the latter, it means God is unjust.

Blood splattered on you doesn't send you to jail for murder. Original sin DOES send you to hell.
---StrongAxe on 10/1/16


///Leon: Babies are not citizens until birth, at which point they gain the citizenship of wherever country they are born in.---StrongAxe on 10/1/16///

Picky, picky, picky! Okay, thank you for the reminder. :)
---Leon on 10/1/16


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StrongAxe, Deuteronomy 24:16

She doesn't have to raise nor support the child.
Neither do Rapists have visiting rights.

BTW, What man demands visiting rights to see a child when he is denying raping the woman in the first place? NONSENSE!

So the woman is innocent but not the baby??? Really?
The Baby has to pay with his life so the mother doesn't have to endure 9 months.

9 months vs. a life time

//The baby is not innocent according to your RCC's doctrine of Original Sin.//

Wrong Every baby is stained with original sin.

If blood is splattered on you it doesn't mean you are responsible, but you still have to WASH off the blood!

As Baptism washing off the stain of sin from our souls
---Nicole_Lacey on 10/1/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: since when do we punish a child for their father's sin/crime?

Since the Fall. Our world's broken nature is punishment for Adam's sin. God said the sins of the fathers would be visited upon the sons unto the seventh generation.

It isn't fair to force an innocent woman to go through pregnancy because of an outrageous act by another, and raise and support the child, and grant the "father" visitation rights either, so it's unfair no matter which way it goes.

The baby is not innocent according to your RCC's doctrine of Original Sin.


Leon:

Babies are not citizens until birth, at which point they gain the citizenship of wherever country they are born in.
---StrongAxe on 10/1/16


Leon, I agree with you that abortion is murder. I was being smart with those who make excuses for the Pro Choice crowd.

They can't make up their minds when murder takes place and to whom is being murdered in their minds.


StrongAxe, since when do we punish a child for their father's sin/crime?

Why should a mother be allowed to kill her baby because the baby's father raped her?

The baby is still innocent.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/30/16


/// //Abortion is murder before birth. Infanticide is murder after birth.//

Not in the United States of America Only infanticide is murder...---Nicole_Lacey on 9/30/16///

Nikki: Though legal in the U.S., abortion is still, in the eyes of God & right thinking Americans (Christian or otherwise), MURDER. For those of us who abhor certain laws enacted by our government, the right course of action is first to pray God's will be done & then to vigorously vote against such legislation that's terminal to baby citizens, born or otherwise. The "CHOICE" to vote or not is a Constitutional right of every age eligible American.
---Leon on 9/30/16


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Cluny:

You wrote: How does this differ from the pro-choice position?

There is a big difference between "abortion should be allowed in certain limited circumstances" (e.g. risk to mother, incest, rape, severe infant deformity) and "abortion should be allowed in all circumstances, because it's the mother's right to choose" (i.e. the pro choice position).
---StrongAxe on 9/30/16


//Abortion is murder before birth. Infanticide is murder after birth.//

Not in the United States of America Only infanticide is murder.
And only some can commit murder while others can not.

Whenever the Government gives a certain group(Women) permission to kill another certain group (Unborn children) it confuses citizens of that Country.

If I harm a pregnant woman causing her to lose that baby I can be charged with murder of the unborn child.

Because I am not the mother who only has the right to end that baby's life not me.

If a mother kills her baby 10 hours after giving birth to the child, she WILL be charged with murder only BECAUSE she DIDN'T kill the baby 11 hours earlier which was her right. REALLY?
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/30/16


This is from the official SDA web site about abortion:

"Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman's life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest."

How does this differ from the pro-choice position?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/30/16


Leon: "Jerry: "Pro-Choice is a deceptive lie."? How did you come to that spurious conclusion?"

If you would be honest with yourself for a moment you would acknowledge that what the Pro-Choice crowd means by Pro-Choice is Pro-Abortion. They never advocate for the other choice - Pro Life. I know it, and so does everyone else. You seem to be having trouble admitting it. Why?



---Jerry6593 on 9/30/16


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StrongAxe, did you know the 'people' argument was used for Black people in order to keep them as Slaves?

If you compare the excuses used for abortion you will see the same excuses used for Slaves
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/29/16


///Leon: Your arguments appear to me to be without merit. While Pro-Life is accurately named, Pro-Choice is a deceptive lie [?!!!] which should be named Pro-Infanticide...---Jerry6593 on 9/29/16///

Jerry: "Pro-Choice is a deceptive lie."? How did you come to that spurious conclusion?

You clearly don't understand the difference between abortion & infanticide. Abortion is murder before birth. Infanticide is murder after birth.

Your comments appear to me to be your Trump-like, unfounded, twisted way of saying you're right (at least in your own mind) & I'm wrong. smh
---Leon on 9/29/16


///While some choose death others, who are Pro-Life, choose life regardless of the wrong-headed choices of some.
---Leon on 9/28/16

What I see is that capital punishment is in the Bible and is not condemned by the Bible.

The Jews used it, so did the Romans. Many say that God supports it. Even our Lord, who was executed by capital punishment, did not say anything against its use.

Why do you?---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/16///

Why are you trying to change the subject Mark_E? What you said about capital punishment hasn't anything to do with being Pro-Life and/or Pro-Choice.
---Leon on 9/29/16


"This describes a child at month 6, not at conception"
The child of six month recognized and acknowledged the child at conception.
---josef on 9/29/16


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josef:

You wrote: Strongaxe, and just what would they be if not people?

I didn't say *I* say they're not people. I said they are not automatically BY DEFINITION people - whether they are people or not is a matter over which there is much debate, which would not be possible if it were inherent in the definition.

when did that personhood start and why? Who would be qualified to make that determination?

I can't answer that, but it's not clear in either bible nor dictionary. "We don't know if they are" is not the same as "they aren't".

Luke 1:35-45

This describes a child at month 6, not at conception.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/16


While some choose death others, who are Pro-Life, choose life regardless of the wrong-headed choices of some.
---Leon on 9/28/16

What I see is that capital punishment is in the Bible and is not condemned by the Bible.

The Jews used it, so did the Romans. Many say that God supports it. Even our Lord, who was executed by capital punishment, did not say anything against its use.

Why do you?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/16


"josef:
That is not so "by definition". Rather, it relies on a secondary assumption - that human embryos or fetuses are, in fact, people. This assumption is challenged by pro-choice people."
---StrongAxe on 9/28/16
Strongaxe, and just what would they be if not people? Would a 6 mouth old fetus be considered by pro-choice to be a person? If so, when did that personhood start and why? Who would be qualified to make that determination? And what exactly qualifies them? Those are the questions that must be answered before one could reasonably challenge when life begins as a person. Scripture has determined life and personhood begins at conception. Luke 1:35-45
---josef on 9/29/16


For the record, the RCC is AGAINST the death penalty because it might prevent true repentance LATER, thus preventing hell.

//discussing the label "pro life". "Life" has nothing to do with innocence.---StrongAxe

I am saying that Pro-life DOES have to do innocence.

Understand that the Pro-choice crowd are not talking about people on death row. They are not asking the Supreme Court to grant them choice.

The choice is only for women with children and those wishes to have the choice to end a life as they wish.

The only guilt that is found in those sentenced to death by the Pro Choice is that they are LIVING!

The Pro-Life crowd are saying 'Life' can not be the basis for why they should DIE.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/29/16


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I think "Pro-life" usually means that every unborn human is a person who has the right to live and not be aborted.

While "Pro-choice", to most people, means the claim that a pregnant woman has the right to make her own choice about if she will abort her unborn.

Pro-choice women can argue that they have the right to decide what happens inside their bodies. It's their body, they argue. so, no one else has the right to tell them what they can and can not do with their own body.

But ones will go along with social pressure, in order to not lose the support of people they depend on. They will stay with unloving people who pressure them to kill their own unborn with whom they could discover real love.
---Bill on 9/29/16


Nicole_Lacey:

I am not arguing whether pro or anti-abortion, or pro or anti-death penalty are morally defensible. I am simply discussing the label "pro life". "Life" has nothing to do with innocence. An innocent child and a death row murderer are both equally alive, and anyone who claims to be "pro life" should treat them equally in that regard.

You are perfectly allowed to treat them different based on their guilt or innocence, but if you do, your attitude is "pro innocence" and NOT "pro life".

As far as those already in hell are concerned, they are beyond our judgment or ken, so leave them and their fate to God. Our being for or against them is irrelevant.
---StrongAxe on 9/29/16


Leon: Your arguments appear to me to be without merit. While Pro-Life is accurately named, Pro-Choice is a deceptive lie which should be named Pro-Infanticide.

No Cluny, the official position of the SDA church is not Pro-Abortion as you assert. The vast majority of SDAs are opposed to abortion. The fact that some liberal SDAs with website access are Pro-Choice is not sufficient to brand us all with such nonsense. I'll bet there are some Pro-Choice Orthodox as well. Does that make YOU Pro-Choice?


---Jerry6593 on 9/29/16


///I repeat Jerry, isn't being Pro-Life a choice?
---Leon on 9/28/16

Yes, but being Pro-choice is not about choice. [WHAT?!!!] I suggest we call it what it really is. How about "Pro-Abortion"? [WHAT?!!!]

Your assertion is that Pro-Choice is just that, being for having a choice to make. But underneath this labeling there is only one choice being made, death for the unborn child. It is really Pro-Womens-Choice-of-Abortion versus Pro-Unborn-Child-Choice-of Life...---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/16///

HUH?!!! While some choose death others, who are Pro-Life, choose life regardless of the wrong-headed choices of some. Do you not see that Mark?

---Leon on 9/28/16


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//So what? Life is life. If one is against abortion but pro death penalty, one is not Pro-LIFE, but rather Pro-INNOCENCE (which is a good thing, just improperly named).//

Nonsense, you can't put babies on the same level as criminals who had a CHOICE.

//if the unborn baby was given a choice he or she will NEVER agree for you to abort them.

The same would also apply to most people on death row. ---StrongAxe on 9/28/16

As those in hell.

They made a choice knowing the consequences
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/28/16


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: StrongAxe, the people on the death penalty were FOUND guilty for a crime they committed.

So what? Life is life. If one is against abortion but pro death penalty, one is not Pro-LIFE, but rather Pro-INNOCENCE (which is a good thing, just improperly named).

if the unborn baby was given a choice he or she will NEVER agree for you to abort them.

The same would also apply to most people on death row.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/16


I don't believe in Prohibition.
---StrongAxe on 9/28/16

Pardon me, but I think you do.

Not having speed limit signs or stop signs leads to car crashes. Not having air-traffic control leads to air disasters. Not having voting prohibitions (like one vote per person) leads to illegitimate elections.

A total lack of prohibitions is chaos and confusion.

God is not the author of chaos or confusion. God established this world within prohibitions, we call them Laws, like the law of gravity, the law of sowing and reaping, and even Murphy's law.

We can choose to disregard these prohibitions but at our own peril.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/16


I repeat Jerry, isn't being Pro-Life a choice?
---Leon on 9/28/16

Yes, but being Pro-choice is not about choice. I suggest we call it what it really is. How about "Pro-Abortion"?

Your assertion is that Pro-Choice is just that, being for having a choice to make. But underneath this labeling there is only one choice being made, death for the unborn child. It is really Pro-Womens-Choice-of-Abortion versus Pro-Unborn-Child-Choice-of Life.

The name is being changed to soften its negativity.

Politically-correct speak verses using terms everyone understands.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/16


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\\Pro-life is AGAINST baby murder. Pro-choice INCLUDES the option of baby murder. \\

The SDA church is officially pro-choice. If you don't believe me search "SDA + abortion".

Orthodoxy is officially pro-life.

But now being pro-life includes standing against other forms of murder, such as euthanasia.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 9/28/16


Thanks Chria. There are many situations in life, besides abortion, where people oppose something but accept that others should have the right to do what they, personally, would not do. Sadly in the U.K. abortion has been accepted as a right to the extent that people will abort a child 'because it is not a convenient time to have one' or 'it's going to be a girl and I have 3 already and wanted a boy' and other such sad reasons. We, virtually, have abortion on demand here now and that is incredibly sad. I think that many will regret such decisions as they age.
---Rita_H on 9/28/16


///Leon: It appears to me that you are missing the obvious. Pro-life is AGAINST baby murder. Pro-choice INCLUDES the option of baby murder.---Jerry6593 on 9/28/16///

To the contrary Jerry. While Pro-Life is obviously just that, Pro-Choice is a fork in the road where there indeed is an option for people to choose abortion, BUT there's also an option there for people to choose "life". Again, the entire Bible speaks about us making choices, good or evil. God is Pro-Life as well as Pro-Choice. He wants us to choose Life, but we have the free will choice to choose death & reap the consequences thereof.

I repeat Jerry, isn't being Pro-Life a choice?
---Leon on 9/28/16


StrongAxe, the people on the death penalty were FOUND guilty for a crime they committed.

The unborn babies are innocent, but condemned to death

The mother is allowed to kill the baby just out of convenience to her.

BTW, even those put to death are not killed in the horrific manner as the unborn.

Why does the Left cares more for the criminal's mode of death, but not the unborn?

Leon, having Slaves is also considered a matter of freedom of choice.

The problems is that you can't make a choice for another person.

The Slave will NEVER be in agreement for you to own him or her.

And if the unborn baby was given a choice he or she will NEVER agree for you to abort them.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/28/16


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Rita:

"This means that the two are (more or less) direct opposites of each other."

That's how I had understood it. However, when considering those who oppose abortion morally but support choice, I have thought of how God allows certain choice(s), but is not for all choices made.
---chria9396 on 9/27/16


Leon: It appears to me that you are missing the obvious. Pro-life is AGAINST baby murder. Pro-choice INCLUDES the option of baby murder.


---Jerry6593 on 9/28/16


josef:

That is not so "by definition". Rather, it relies on a secondary assumption - that human embryos or fetuses are, in fact, people. This assumption is challenged by pro-choice people.

Pro-life and pro-choice are not mutually exclusive. E.g. I am personally anti-smoking (I think it's a vile, disgusting, and unhealthy habit), yet pro-choice with regards to smoking (smokers should have the right to make the choice to do so, as poor as such a choice is). I don't believe in Prohibition.

Also, it's curious that many in the pro-life movement are also pro-death penalty - which means they are anti-abortion, but they are NOT really pro-life (as they only value SOME lives but not others).
---StrongAxe on 9/28/16


Fellow bloggers: Does not God's word (Gen.-Rev.) give us (mankind) freedom of choice? Isn't being Pro-Life a choice?
---Leon on 9/27/16


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Pro-life by definition, advocates the legal protection of human embryos or fetuses by favoring the outlawing of abortion on the ground that it is the taking of a human life. One who is pro-life is opposed to abortion.
Pro-choice by definition, is the belief that a pregnant woman should have the freedom and the right to choose to have an abortion. It favors legalized abortion as an option for an unwanted pregnancy.
---josef on 9/27/16


Pro-Life means life at all stages from conception to natural death.

A Doctor told me who is pro-choice that it doesn't mean pro abortion.

Pro choice according to him is that a woman has the choice to have a abortion for any reason or not.

Later the choice includes mercy killing for those wishing to end their life with the help of a Physician for any reason.
---Nicole_Lacey on 9/27/16


I might be wrong Leon but I always assumed that Pro-Life meant being FOR life and AGAINST abortion. I also assumed that Pro-Choice meant that everyone should accept that individuals can choose for themselves which means that abortion should be legal for those who want it.

This means that the two are (more or less) direct opposites of each other.

I'll be interested to read what others have to say on this.
---Rita_H on 9/27/16


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