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Understanding Calvinism

A blogger here recently stated, "Calvinism jumps over and around THE CROSS,"

question:

How many individuals here can honestly say they understand "Calvinism."?

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 ---john9346 on 11/11/16
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John, yes, and we see in John 6 towards the end those who Jesus compares to Judas. When Jesus said eat my flesh and drink my blood, the disciples ...followers of Jesus walked away. Then he asked the remaining 11 apostles..."will you betray me too"? Why would Jesus ask such a question to His other 11?

Jesus did come into the WORLD, as your verse states, but scripture also states He came unto HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not. Who are the HIS OWN HERE JOHN? THe ELECT or ISRAEL? Careful how you answer that.
---kathr4453 on 11/20/16


to recap:

1. In Eph 2:1-9 sinners are dead and dead people cant make choices also see Rom 3:10-18...

2. InJn 17, Jesus used the word, "World." is referring to the "Elect Ones." in all races not just, "Israel/Jews." also see Jn 3:1-16.

3. We see from history that the "Doctrines of Sovereign Grace." AKA "Calvinism." has been taught and believed for thousands of years. See, 1 Clment 29:1 and Ignatius Prologue to the Ephesians.

4. Pelagianism, Semi-pelagianisn AKA (Arminianism." was condemned a "Heresy." by the Councils of Carthage, Ephesus, and Orange...
---john9346 on 11/20/16


Kathr ask, "What assurance do you have that YOU are one of the elect?

Ma'am, by asking this question, you answered the blog question you "Profoundly." do not understand the "Doctrines of Sovereign Grace." AKA "Calvinism."

Please please read sources to understand:

London Baptist Confession of 1689, the Council of Dort, Five Points by John Piper, The Potter's Freedom by James White.
---john9346 on 11/20/16


Kathr,

The bible says God your creator is holy, righteous, just, and pure.

The bible says you are a sinner who have committed sin against him. Have you ever told a lie, looked with lust on a man, stolen, been disobedient to your parents, have you always loved God perfectly??

The bible says The Lord Jesus Christ who is God took on Human Flesh is the only one who lived a perfect and sinless life and is the only way to be reconciled to God...

The bible commands you to repent/turn from your sin today my friend and trust Christ alone to save you from his wrath of Eternal Hell against sinners...

Plead with God to show you mercy and to save you from his wrath.


Always in love,

John
---john9346 on 11/20/16


//Ok Nicole, now your an expert on how banks train their tellers? My you do get around.//

Well, you know 'common Sense' isn't too common

//Therefore BANKS train their tellers to continually handle, touch etc the REAL THING to know when a counterfeit is coming through.//

Indeed

Definition

Counterfeit:

'made in EXACT IMITATION of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud'

//When you KNOW Jesus, you KNOW when a counterfeit comes along.---kathr4453 on 11/19/16

AMEN!
---Nicole_Lacey on 11/20/16




Ok Nicole, now your an expert on how banks train their tellers? My you do get around. There are SO MANY DIFFERENT KI DS OF COUNTERFEITS, that to,study each and every one is impossible. Therefore BANKS train their tellers to continually handle, touch etc the REAL THING to know when a counterfeit is coming through.

Jesus said I AM THE WAY TRUTH AND LIFE. AND Jesus prayed in John 17, that we would KNOW HIM. When you KNOW Jesus, you KNOW when a counterfeit comes along.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/16


Kathr ask, "I have a question for you John. Do you believe Judas is one of the elect who betrayed Jesus and is in heaven now?"

Kathr, lets see what the Lord Jesus Christ said about Judas, "12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be Jn 17:12fulfilled."


"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"


"He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."
---john9346 on 11/20/16


//When bank tellers are trained to detect counterfeit money, they don't have to study the counterfeit, they study the REAL THING---kathr4453

Wrong, you have STUDY the counterfeit to know WHY it is a counterfeit.

Counterfeit is SO close to the real thing, you have to study it to recognize the false details.

I can stand on my Beliefs KNOWING nothing will knock me off.

But, that doesn't mean I can say that Calvinism is wrong.

I have to say WHY I believe it is wrong.

You can't claim you have the TRUE Mona Lisa WITHOUT proving another Mona Lisa is a fake.

You can only do so by examining the fake Mona Lisa and showing HOW it is fake.

Saying it is fake all day long isn't going to work
---Nicole_Lacey on 11/19/16


John, no one has to,pass YOUR TEST on Calvinism to know it is false doctrine. ALL one needs to know is the TRUTH to know what is false. When bank tellers are trained to detect counterfeit money, they don't have to study the counterfeit, they study the REAL THING, and by that know when a counterfeit comes through.

As I said before, COMMENTARY on scripture or doctrine, is NOT LIVING AND POWERFUL AND SHARPER THAN A TWO EDGE SWORD.

Individual,thinking got many MURDERED by Calvinists who disagreed with ANY part of Calvin's doctrine, including those who did not believe in INFANT BAPTISM. Calvinism is nothing more than REFORMED CATHOLOCISM.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/16


John, I see your 4 posts in a row here have added NOTHING to your above question. Its added nothing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that our calling is to preach the doctrine of Calvinism rather than Christ Crucified and Risen.

You are not really answering any questions posed to you, but you rather jump all around the questions with posts you think will prove your position. No one is saved by DOCTRINE. Head knowledge does not save anyone.

JESUS SAVES, and God so loved ALL MEN EVERYWHERE, He sent His only Begotten Son to die for the sin of ALL MANKIND. Not only for us but for the WHOLE WORLD. 1st John. If that CONTEXT is a problem for you, YOU have a problem that cannot be fixed here on CN.
---kathr4453 on 11/19/16




Kathr ask, "Who and what decides CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT? one would think the CONTEXT of John 17 would apply here, reading the text in the CONTEXT that Israel is who Jesus CHOSE His Apostles from,"

Kathr, the Lord Jesus Christ is deciding the context in Jn 17 I believe he is able to explain what he meant...

In reading Jn 17 in context, no one could conclude that "Israel." is the theme.

The Lord Jesus states over and over again, "World, world, etc." meaning all "Ethnicities."
---john9346 on 11/18/16


Kathr states, "Calvinism does not allow for individual thought or revelation leading to growth and maturity IN CHRIST."

lol take time to read the biography of men such as Adonarim Judson, Andrew Fuller, William Carey, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan, Martin Luther, John owen, John Knox, etc...

When you take time to do your reading, get back to me ok??

BTW, ma'am, Mormons have apostles and prophets not church fathers, they don't believe in the Christian Church Fathers.
---john9346 on 11/18/16


questions for Kathr:



1. Define for us all here the definition of Calvinism??

2. Do you know what Calvinists really believe in their own words??

3. Can you cite for everyone here a Calvinistic Source explaining beliefs?

4. Do you know who the Church Fathers were and what they believed?

5. Can you name 3 Church Fathers and to prevent just googling give us all there famous work in the church?
---john9346 on 11/18/16


samuelBB7 states, "But instead to only give cpr to some. Then you are choosing for them who will live and who will die."

But aren't they all ready dead??

Dead people cant make choices if they can then they are not dead. In other words, mankind is either dead in sin or alive in Christ, there is no "Neutral Ground."

---john9346 on 11/18/16


john9346* "Let us, therefore, approach him with holiness of spirit, lifting unto him pure and undefiled hands, loving the kind and compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect."

First Clement 29:1

30:1 Since, therefore, we are a portion of the Holy One, let us do all such things as pertain unto holiness, avoiding evil-speaking, foul and impure embraces, drunkenness, disorderliness, abominable desires, detestable adultery, execrable pride,

Here (Pope Clement) warns the elect:
---Ruben on 11/19/16


I have a question for you John. Do you believe Judas is one of the elect who betrayed Jesus and is in heaven now? If you answer YES, then is it fare to say that many of Gods elect are betrayers of Jesus? If you say NO, because the end of John 6 shows Judas, although CHOSEN betrayed Jesus and compared him to all those who walked away from Jesus.....how do YOU know for sure that YOU weren't chosen as one of the elect to betray Jesus in the end as well? What assurance do you have that YOU are one of the elect? Anyone can claim to be the elect, by their own testimony, which means NOTHING.

What assurance does any JW have that he is one of the 144,000?
---kathr4453 on 11/19/16


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John, are you here to prove Calvinism by quoting man? These men are not the apostles and prophets of scripture, but simply men who think they can add to scripture. Are these men infallible? Can you PROVE their words are the inspired Word of God. Or just personal opinions of their own? There were heretics and Gnostics at the time of Peter, Paul, John etc, who warned us about false teachers....

John, is the WORD of God alive to you? Does the Holy Spirit teach you, or is all your doctrine taught to you by man?
---kathr4453 on 11/18/16


"Let us, therefore, approach him with holiness of spirit, lifting unto him pure and undefiled hands, loving the kind and compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect."

First Clement 29:1



"To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father."

Ignatius of Antioch (Prologue to the Ephesians)
---john9346 on 11/18/16


Exactly who are these church fathers you are talking about John, the apostles and prophets in scripture?

Can you give us the names of your church fathers? And if it's not those epistles in Scripture but men who came after them deciding what scripture meant and we have to believe second hand, and not right from Scripture itself, what makes your religion any different than any cult? Even the Mormons have church fathers. Everything they believe is taught to them through their church fathers. Do YOU believe in the individual priesthood of the believer? Calvinism does not allow for individual thought or revelation leading to growth and maturity IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/16


It is important for those genuinely desiring the truth on Calvinism to understand that Calvinism is a name given to the Doctrines of Grace.

The "Doctrines of grace." has been taught first and above all in the "Scriptures."

Secondly, by the church fathers.

"
---john9346 on 11/18/16


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---kathr4453 on 11/17/16

It depends on the word called, "Context, context, context."


---john9346 on 11/18/16

Ok John, I'll bite. Who and what decides CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT? one would think the CONTEXT of John 17 would apply here, reading the text in the CONTEXT that Israel is who Jesus CHOSE His Apostles from, and verse 20 are to ALL who believe on Jesus through THEIR word. If you want to be the THEIR here, fine....ARE YOU PREACHING Jesus Christ and Him Crucified as Paul did, or are you preaching Calvinism? Jesus never asked anyone to preach CALVINISM.
---kathr4453 on 11/18/16


But that does bring up an interesting thing that Calvinists or at least MarkV insisted that WORLD as in John 3:16 did not mean ALL PEOPLE/ races, but only the elect. Can we have it both ways John? Or does it depend on the verse and how one chooses at that time how to interpret it?
---kathr4453 on 11/17/16

It depends on the word called, "Context, context, context."


---john9346 on 11/18/16


kathr states,"Being dead in TRESSPASSES and sin does not mean the conscience is dead to knowing right from wrong."

But what Paul is addressing in Eph 2 is how those at the church of Ephesus were saved not a Natural Law.

Yes, there is a "Natural Law." by which mankind knows right and wrong discussed in Rom 1:18-25.

Eph 2 is not addressing The Natural Law.
---john9346 on 11/18/16


strongaxe states, "Nevertheless, all 12 of his disciples WERE from Israel - even later Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles."

But the Lord Jesus Christ in Jn 17 in context used the word "World." meaning everyone not only Isrel, but everyone.

Also, this is the same thing John refers back to this same usage of the word "World." "Kosmos." in Jn 3:16.
Paul
---john9346 on 11/17/16


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Kathr,

If you continue reading Paul explains what he mean in vs 1-2, "9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin,

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

I said the following to you in the beginning of this post, I have yet to see it, as well as other here, "As I said I'd appreciate a mature dialog with you if that is possible. Time will tell soon., "
---john9346 on 11/17/16


Being dead in TRESSPASSES and sin does not mean the conscience is dead to knowing right from wrong. BUT just in case one believes that,guess what GOD put the 10 commandments in place and showed man exactly what SIN IS that even d dead person, that is dead in TRESSPASSES and sin could still understand sin, and know right from wrong according to GODS LAWS. There is no secret what sin is, that even a sinful man can know. The CONSCIENCE OF MAN DID NOT DIE at the fall. When Adam ate the forbidden fruit , he/ man was now able to know BOTH GOOD AND EVIL. It doesn't say man only knows EVIL as Calvinists lie against this very clearly stated verse. How do you plan to BUTCHER THAT ONE JOHN?

Stop twisting scripture John.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/16


Kathr said, "John, you act like you have ants in your pants....all over the place. Now your comment to Samuel sounds like you are suffering from envy or something,"

Actually, I believe it is you who have ants in your pants...., all over the place, like you are suffering from envy or something.

You are prooving to us all here that you cant deal with the "Scriptures." in there context. You are just googling any aroneous statement to post. Kathr this is lying and very deceitful...

The Historical Context Sources deal fully with your "False Claims.", like you confessed it is unclear if he was in Geneva, so you don't know...

The sources I posted has the answer I suggest you read them.
---john9346 on 11/17/16


Many propositions that people attribute to Jean Chauvin, such as TULIP theology, are actually from the Synod of Dordt.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 11/17/16


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john9346:

You wrote: Note, the Lord Jesus states the apostles were given to him out of the "World." not "Israel." He went on to say he pray not for the world he didn't say, "Israel.

Nevertheless, all 12 of his disciples WERE from Israel - even later Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles.
---StrongAxe on 11/17/16

Exactly.

But that does bring up an interesting thing that Calvinists or at least MarkV insisted that WORLD as in John 3:16 did not mean ALL PEOPLE/ races, but only the elect. Can we have it both ways John? Or does it depend on the verse and how one chooses at that time how to interpret it?
---kathr4453 on 11/17/16


John, it sounds to me like all you're going to do here is whine whine whine, and hold up everything I say as a form of public ridicule by the way you are relating to the subject matter, that you would prefer to take the lower road here. So, I did try to give it a go, and give you the benefit here, but like I said earlier, it will get UGLY, because your mind is already made up, and I have no intention of changing my faith to Calvinism. So this conversation is over and out with me. But I will now and again post when I do see a blatant misrepresentation of scripture on your part. Just so that OTHERS can see there are other interpretations based on back up scripture, and let THEM decide for themselves.

Have a nice day John.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/16


Kathr states, "JOHN 17 Jesus is clearly praying for 2 different groups. The ones in the beginning are the ones the FATHER has given Jesus. Israel belongs to the FATHER. Israel is Gods chosen ELECT vessels in the world AT THAT TIME."

But the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't state this if it was only "Isrel." he would have clearly stated "Isrel."

We know the LordJesus Christ is referring to all races because he uses the word "World." "Kosmos." in greek meaning every person/race
---john9346 on 11/17/16


samuelBB7 said, "John I believe the verses you posted. I believe the entire Bible. But the verses didn't say men are so evil they cannot be awaked by the Holy Spirit they must be forced to be saved.

Sir, the "Scriptures." state that sinners are dead. Dead people can not and do not make choices.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,"

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,"

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)"

Eph 2:1, 4-5
---john9346 on 11/16/16


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John, you act like you have ants in your pants....all over the place. Now your comment to Samuel sounds like you are suffering from envy or something, since Samuel didn't specifically say WHAT it was he was referring to. YOU ASSUMED it was about Calvin's Tyrannical Reign when in Geneva, whether he was a citizen or not. HE WAS THERE. Deal with it.

JOHN 17 Jesus is clearly praying for 2 different groups. The ones in the beginning are the ones the FATHER has given Jesus. Israel belongs to the FATHER. Israel is Gods chosen ELECT vessels in the world AT THAT TIME. YOU DO NOT SEE A GENTILE as one of the original 12. if it were about election to SALVATION you would see a GENTILE, AND you would not see Judas betray Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/16


Romans 3 :1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Is it John's intention here to SCOFF at everything" Kathr says?".

We see John all through out the OT that Israel is Gods elect chosen vessel , a people of HIS OWN to be a light unto the Nations. We see in the Gospels Jesus even told the Apostles not to even go to the Gentiles AT THAT TIME.

So either you are a hyper anti Semite
Like I've never seen before, or so blinded to these foundational truths that your whole foundation is cracked from the beginning.
---kathr4453 on 11/17/16


john9346:

You wrote: Note, the Lord Jesus states the apostles were given to him out of the "World." not "Israel." He went on to say he pray not for the world he didn't say, "Israel.

Nevertheless, all 12 of his disciples WERE from Israel - even later Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles.
---StrongAxe on 11/17/16


Kathr states, "Jesus apostles WERE CHOSEN OUT OF ISRAEL."


"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word."

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

Note, the Lord Jesus states the apostles were given to him out of the "World." not "Israel." He went on to say he pray not for the world he didn't say, "Israel.
---john9346 on 11/16/16


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samuelBB7 said, "Wow Kathyr you have educated me. I didn't know this. Thank you."

Sir, she is not educating you she is just googling if you notice she has yet to provide a "Primary and Secondary Source."

Also, everything being posted here is from "Anti-calvinistic." Websites.

This is why she cantshow when Calvin ruled Geneva a date and time.
---john9346 on 11/16/16


Pls ask a more specific question about Calvinism.
---a_servant on 11/16/16


The suppose 58 people according to history is "Unclear."

The individuals that were executed had to do with spreading the plague not refusing Infant Baptism.

To obtain full context of what happen:

see, Calvin's Letter to Myconius of Basel (March 27, 1545)
---john9346 on 11/16/16


John Calvin didn't rule Geneva he wanted to go to Geneva. During most of his time in Geneva he wasn't a citizen, he was never on the City Council until 1559. He died in 1564.



For a more full context of understanding.

See, Calvin by Bruce Gordon
---john9346 on 11/16/16


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Calvinist Atrocities

Calvinist atrocities, 16th century woodgraving
Multiple death sentences are also reported by this same Protestant scholar, Galiff, who delved into the records of that time. Describing a short period of Calvins rule he says, One counts 30 executions of men and 28 of women, subdivided by method of death: 13 persons hanged, 10 beheaded, 55 quartered, 35 burned alive after being tortured.(9)

Reporting the religious persecutions of Calvin, author Jean Tet affirms that from 1542 to 1546, which was the softer period of his government, we count 58 capital executions, 76 banishments and 900 imprisonments.(10)
---kathr4453 on 11/16/16


Kathr states, "During the reign of Calvin in Geneve, 58 were sentenced to death."

Name the Primary and Secondary Source for 58 men and women and what date and time it is suppose they were killed?

Name these supposed evangelists who were expeled?

I'm still waiting for the date and time when Calvin ruled Geneva?
---john9346 on 11/16/16


Wow Kathyr you have educated me. I didn't know this. Thank you.

John I believe the verses you posted. I believe the entire Bible. But the verses didn't say men are so evil they cannot be awaked by the Holy Spirit they must be forced to be saved.

Nor that Jesus only died for a few.

That GOD forces some to be saved and hates all the rest.
---Samuelbb7 on 11/16/16


John 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word,

Here is the verse in John 17 Calvinists IGNORE OR DONT UNDERSTAND.

Jesus apostles WERE CHOSEN OUT OF ISRAEL. If one does not understand that, it's useless to go on. So the beginning verses have to do with those ALREADY OF GODS ELECT. Verse 20 is Jesus praying for all those who believe JESUS THROUGH THEIR WORD. The THEIR here are His Apostles, disciples. Faith comes by HEARING and then you either believe it or not.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/16


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During the reign of Calvin in Geneve, 58 were sentenced to death by the Presbyterian Council controlled by Calvin believers say 2 of them were apparently born-again believers. One mother and her father were burnt because they refused infant baptism believing that only the born-again believer should be and can be baptized. Calvin's doctrine says that infant baptism is OK, but the actual was that anyone who opposed to it had to be killed. Some other evangelists expected that they could get some protection if they went to Geneve, then found it was not so, then expelled from there and were killed by Roman Catholic.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/16


samuelBB7 said, "I cannot defend the TULIP of Calvinism. I oppose it."

So, you oppose the following?
"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word."

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

Jn 17:2, 6, and 9.
---john9346 on 11/16/16


Everyone note,

Kathr is unable to address the "Scriptures." in context on the Doctrines of Grace AKA (Calvinism) so she has resorted to stating False and Misinformation about John Calvinism.
---john9346 on 11/16/16


questions that need to be answerd:

1. I am waiting for Kathr to address in context Eph 1 specifically vs 4-5.

2. I am waiting for Kathr to address in context Eph 2 specifically vs 1?

3. I am waiting for Kathr to address in context Rom 9 specifically vs 24-26.

4. I am still waiting for Kathr to give us all the dates and time when Calvin supposely ruled Geneva??

5. I am still waiting for Kathr to name just 1 person who Calvin supposely burned??
---john9346 on 11/16/16


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Kathr,

Provide to us all where Calvin killed the Anabaptists??

Give us all Calvin's Justification in his own words??

Also, tell us all , what is the connection between the Anabaptists and Munster Germany?
---john9346 on 11/16/16


HERE is a FURURE PROMISE to Israel. The Church is NOT Jacob. Jesus is not Jacob....Jacob is Israel. The church has NO LAND. NEVER HAD LAND NEVER WILL HAVE LAND.

Isaiah 14 1For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were, and they shall rule over their oppressors.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/16


Samuel, the reason I don't believe in replacement theology is stated in Ephesians. Ephesians is about the MYSTERY that is, the Church. Not some mystery of having your name picked out of a hat. The MYSTERY that was kept secret until now. Yet the NC was not a mystery, and we see Gentiles being saved God promising Abraham, in thee ALL families...meaning Gentiles,...again no mystery there kept secret. The mystery is the CHURCH, aka ONE MEW MAN, neither Jew or Gentile. But that little phrase many reject, yet clearly stated, not just I. EPhesians but Galatians. And the NEW MAN is stated ALL OVER THE NT. THE NEW MAN IS NEITHER JEW OR GENTILE. THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL. The Church is the BODY OF CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/16


Gods unconditional promises are not cancelled out by the unfaithfulness of man. Nothing we do is a surprise to God, and He does not need to adjust His plans according to the way we behave. God is sovereign over all thingspast, present and futureand what He has foreordained for Israel will come to pass, regardless of circumstances. Romans 3:3-4 explains that Israels unbelief would not nullify His promises concerning them.
So now CALVINISTS decide WHEN God can and can't be SOVEREIGN....tooooo funny.

Promises made to Israel are still going to be kept in the future. The Church does not replace Israel and does not inherit the promises made to Israel THE NATION. The promises to the CHURCH are entirely different.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/16


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Kathr states, "By showing that Romans 9-11, is Gods unfailing LOVE for Israel THE NATION, and Paul reiterating Gods Love for Israel, where Israel is NOT the CHURCH?"

Ma'am, The context disagrees with you Paul states, "24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,


I will call those who were not My people, My people,
And her who was not beloved, beloved.

26
And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, you are not My people,
There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Rom 9:24-26.
---john9346 on 11/15/16


Correction here. Calvinism teaches Dominion Theology. I said restoration theology, by mistake. However there is a comparison with Calvinists and Restoration Theology in that of the EXTREME belief that ONLY THEY have the truth.

Donimion Theology is legalism. Forcing OT Sabbath LAWS , but only changing the day from Sat to Sunday is legalism, and shows Calvin did not understand the LIBERTY we have in Christ. If he understood this LIBERTY, he would not have taught and laid examples of a Theocratic Government. Calvin also believed in infant baptism. And murdered the annabaptists and persecuted them because THEY believed in BELIEVERS BAPTISM.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/16


Kathr states, "And YES John, I would suggest you read John 3:14.....showing FREE CHOICE TO LOOK UPON THE SERPENT."

Why not the entire context

vs 3, vs 5, vs 8,

Now tell us all does the Lord Jesus tell us in these verses that sinners are born again of there own free choosing?

"3 Jesus answered and said

Invs vs 16 there is a requirement can you state to everyone what that is??
---john9346 on 11/15/16


Kathr,

Well if any read my responses to you they will see not one time have I engaged in personal attacks , and condescending arrogant remarks towards you.

I am only asking you to be consistent and to stay in the context when it come to the "Scriptures." and Church History. This I ask of each one who debate/dialog with me. There are many who will read this post who really want to learn and know the truth...

I am still waiting for you to tell us all when did Calvin rule Geneva give dates, times??

Also, state one person who Calvin murdered/burned??
---john9346 on 11/15/16


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strongaxe:

"You are talking about Catholicism, not Maryism. Calvin was the founder of Calvinism. Mary was NOT the founder of Catholicism."

But Mary Tudor (Queen Mary I) justified the murder of many (men, women, even pregnant women) in the name of Roman Catholic Beliefs. Also, many popes engaged in "Genocide".

"(Besides, you're barking up the wrong tree - I rejected Catholic beliefs when I was a teenager, and still disagree with many of them)."

Many but not all example, you believe the rcc decided the bible.
---StrongAxe on 11/14/16
---john9346 on 11/15/16


Nice points kathyr

I cannot defend the TULIP of Calvinism. I oppose it.

But I do agree with his replacement Theology that the Church is Israel and believe the Rapture is after the Tribulation.

One reason is that the New Covenant which we are part of is made with Israel.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

When we became part of that New Covenant we became Part of Israel. Ephesians 2
---Samuelbb7 on 11/15/16


John, Will YOU refrain from personal attacks, and condescending arrogant remarks that I don't know what Calvinism is, and UNTIE my hands by allowing me to using scripture to teach scripture, no matter where that scripture can be found???? By showing that Romans 9-11, is Gods unfailing LOVE for Israel THE NATION, and Paul reiterating Gods Love for Israel, where Israel is NOT the CHURCH?

If you try to muzzle the OX, that is, prevent me from using my God given GIFT, then the debate will be limited, just as your understanding is limited, and may be why you believe God is limited in His Love for ALL sinners.

Your move John.

And YES John, I would suggest you read John 3:14.....showing FREE CHOICE TO LOOK UPON THE SERPENT.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/16


John, let's cut to the chase here and nip this in the bud. Have you read John Calvin's " the two kingdoms of God". Maybe that is not the EXACT TITLE, but with that info, it won't be hard to find. The whole of this idea of his was a theocracy here on earth. Once you have read this book, and begin to research the effect this had on Geneva, Massachutes etc, you will see WHY Calvin was nicknamed the Protestant Pope.

Calvin believed in restoration replacement theology. I however DO NOT. IM ALSO A DISPENSATIONALIST. And I also believe in the RAPTURE. I also do not believe the Church replaced Israel. So with that John, I have chosen NOT to debate with you, as I know it will get ugly. That is NOT the will of God.
---kathr4453 on 11/15/16


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Kathr ask, "John so what if Ephesians 2 states what sinners are."

First, I'd appreciate mature honst dialog from you and not your judgmental, condemning, and consending remarks...

Nest, my dialog with with you will be "Contexttual of verses." that means dealing verses by verses and not jumping around from book to book which may or may not address the topic at hand.

Now Glad you asked sinners are dead and dead people can not make choices.

Also, "Whosoever." has a requirement to it.
and did you read before vs16 of Jn 3??
---john9346 on 11/14/16


Kathr states, "John, if you don't know the History of Geneva ,"

No ma'am, the real question here is do you know your history??

I am still waiting for you to state for everyone when did Calvin rule Geneva?

Also, I am still waiting for you to tell us all say just 1 person who Calvin had burned?

I am going to hold you to answer these 2 claims??

Remember, the people can fact check what you state.
---john9346 on 11/14/16


Kathr states, "And John, be careful with making smug comments about scripture in its correct context.....one YOU refuse to put in the exact context as scripture teaches, that.....AFTER YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE."

As I said I'd appreciate a mature dialog with you if that is possible. Time will tell soon.

In Eph 1 way before you get to vs 13 Paul states, "4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

vs 4-5.
---john9346 on 11/14/16


john9346:

You wrote: Remember, Queen Mary I??

You are talking about Catholicism, not Maryism. Calvin was the founder of Calvinism. Mary was NOT the founder of Catholicism. (Besides, you're barking up the wrong tree - I rejected Catholic beliefs when I was a teenager, and still disagree with many of them).
---StrongAxe on 11/14/16


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John so what if Ephesians 2 states what sinners are. Yes, ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. And WHOSOEVER WILL believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life..the very life Ephesians 2 gives to sinners, the life of Christ in you, as was promised under the New Covenant.

John, if you don't know the History of Geneva , or even the history of Massachutes where the first STATE RELIGION ruled people's lives,( yes Calvinists who even accused other Calvinists of being witches....GO FIGURE) where neighbor's told to report on other neighbor's who had Christmas trees, because the state ruled religion made it against the LAW, believing Christmas trees are pagan...IS LEGALISM AND CONTROL. Know your history John.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/16


And John, be careful with making smug comments about scripture in its correct context.....one YOU refuse to put in the exact context as scripture teaches, that.....AFTER YOU BELIEVE YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Yes..that one John, the one you all love to twist around by saying, "OH that is not what it really means." I know all your tricks, continued insults in order to keep the conversation going etc. it's not going to happen just so YOU can continue to ram Calvinism down everyone's throat. We can go on till Kingdom Come how you all insist no one understands scripture, where only YOU can understand it and explain it to everyone.....just more leftover RCC mentality.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/16


kathr

Well, because you refuse to address verses in their context when I have engage you on this topic this is why it seem that these "Blessed Doctrines." are twisted to you.

In Eph 2 Paul tells us the "State." of sinners:



2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
---john9346 on 11/14/16


Kathr states, "The problem is, Calvinism is a man made twist on scripture from a very twisted man whose own life did not hold up to the very truths of the fruit of a New Creature IN CHRIST. Calvin was mean, murdered, ruled Geneva with an iron fist of legalism. THAT IS NOT WHAT THE APOSTLES OR JESUS Taught." Under

lol tell me, can you name just 1 person who Calvin murdered and for starters don't give me
Michael Servetu because this show just how much church history you would know??

BTW, Calvin didn't rule Geneva :-)
---john9346 on 11/14/16


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Calvin used his own beliefs to justify murdering those who disagreed with them. That alone is enough to tell us that his beliefs were deeply flawed.

---StrongAxe on 11/14/16

Well you better completely reject and renounce Roman Catholic Beliefs.

Remember, Queen Mary I??
---john9346 on 11/14/16


Calvin used his own beliefs to justify murdering those who disagreed with them. That alone is enough to tell us that his beliefs were deeply flawed.
---StrongAxe on 11/14/16


John, I absolutely LOVE and understand those verses in Colossians and Ephesians you just posted here. These are awesome TRUTHS. But because Calvinists have twisted these verses to mean something it doesn't mean, namely the Calvin doctrine of God picking only certain souls for salvation, those who promote that twisted view have ROBBED others of a truth so magnificent as to the Power of God in the sanctification process ( not to be confused with justification ) that to twist and distort these truths can only be the work of Satan. In the NCovenant God promised something so much more than the faulty old one. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HAVING YOUR NAME PICKED OUT OF A HAT.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/16


I did not personally know John Calvin. So, I do not know what he really believed . . . or how he lived what he believed. How he lived would be the real meaning of whatever he said and wrote, I suppose.

Also, if people can misunderstand the Bible, possibly they have misrepresented what John said and meant. Ones calling themselves "Calvinists", for all I know, could do this, too (c:

I look at Romans chapter nine, and I think what I have heard people say about predestination doesn't go far enough.

But how does someone apply one's ideas to loving, or not?
---Bill on 11/14/16


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John T, Lisa, MarkV, Luke, beat us all over the head with Calvinism. Do you think you can do better?

The problem is, Calvinism is a man made twist on scripture from a very twisted man whose own life did not hold up to the very truths of the fruit of a New Creature IN CHRIST. Calvin was mean, murdered, ruled Geneva with an iron fist of legalism. THAT IS NOT WHAT THE APOSTLES OR JESUS TAUGHT. Under the NEW, the indwelling Holy Spirit and the blood of Jesus has washed away sin, and not just covered sin. WE live by the faith of HIM in us, Not rules around us our old man could not keep. Praise God TODAY our salvation is complete IN HIM. Hebrews 13:20-21. Even under the OT, a Gentile could join Israel of their own free will.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/16


samuelBB7 states, "Because GOD has reached out to us and convicts us.
So GOD does the first action."

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross,

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

---john9346 on 9/30/16
---john9346 on 11/13/16


samuelBB7 states, "But it does not say that GOD forces only some people to be saved."

Sir, if a man is dead and I perform CPr on him. How am I forcing my will on him.

Remember we were dead in our sins:




"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,"

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,"

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)"

Eph 2:1, 4-5
---john9346 on 11/13/16


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