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5-Points Of Calvinism

Are the 5-points of "Calvinism." AKA (TULIP) Scripture part 2??

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Mark:

""Be holy as I am holy" does not describe what holy means. Did you even look at the context?"

Sir, tell us all, who is the center and focus of this context??

"Do you think this is equal to the angels bowing before God and saying "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty" since the dawn of time?"

If you understood "Holy." as your statethat you do then you would know??

"God is sinless but it is not the meaning of Gods Nature or Being."

Once again, God is "Holy." you cant divide God's Nature against itself as you are doing.
---john9346 on 12/20/16


Mark states, "It starts with Trinity, the deepest knowledge of who God is. Trinity means relationship, fellowship, togetherness, and sharing, with self-giving and other-centeredness not afterthoughts, but the deepest truth about the being of God."

Sir, Please read Rom 3:10-23, Matt 1:21, Lk 19:10 tostart with.
---john9346 on 12/20/16


Kathr states, "John, the IGNORANCE is all yours when you left out verse 4 of Isaiah 45. AGAIN WHO was God talking to AND what was God talking to them about?"

Good that you have read it now what did God say about darkness and evil.

My question to you is who controls the evil and darkness??

man or Yahweh??
---john9346 on 12/20/16


Kathr,

You are unable to answer my questions regarding Jn 6:37-44 and Jn 10:11-29.
You are also unable to answer regarding Gen 3.
---john9346 on 12/20/16


It's interesting too that you would think as many churches have been divided over this doctrine, the arguments, hurts etc, that to the Calvinist the meaning of predestination is to be predestined to the Doctrine of Calvinism. That is the first and foremost objective to them.. Divide and conquer to OUR understanding.

Just that in itself is EVIL to the core.

And Markv, Luke and John ( SOON A MATTHEW WILL APPEAR) you can keep your coy smirky snarky remarks that "YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE". Bla bla bla. No one has to know Scientology, Mormonism etc inside and out to KNOW it is false. All one has to know is what is TRUE to know what isn't. It's THAT simple.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16




John, I believe Luke meant this for you....in other words your question is either misleading or just plain ignorant. Even Luke is saying YOU John do not know what you are talking about.

Kath, Calvin did not write the five points of Calvinism. He was dead when the tulip came to be. You have to know what you are talking about Kath. You don't as I have demonstrated many times. The Tulip came to be when the Arminians came out with their "five point Remonstrance" The answer to them was the "Five point of Calvinism". He did not write the five points of Calvinism, the Church from Holland did in answer to the "Remonstrance."
---Luke on 12/20/16
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


If it is scriptural, why would one certain person's name need to be on it?

How does your belief have you discovering how to please God and love any and all people?

Is the focus of attention on the beliefs and a certain person who has presented those beliefs, or is your attention first to the Bible and how the Bible teachings have us finding out how to love and please God and relate as family in Jesus while we love any and all others?

How much is said about how to personally submit to how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in His own peace in our hearts?

Colossians 3:15
---Bill on 12/20/16


John, No one is denying God is sovereign, no one is denying the words election,predestination new birth etc etc are in scripture, but like some here, there are those who OVERLY DIVIDE the word of truth bringing DIVISION among believers. Just as michael_e's doctrine OVERLY DIVIDES exactly when the church began....the beginning of Acts or the end of Acts or the middle of ACTS.

You on many fronts have overly divided by REDEFINING the words "Whosoever" , "World"....just for starters. Those are NO BRAINERS that you have not gotten correct....so what makes you think you have the correct definition of election and predestination?

Scripture teaches scripture. John Luke, MarkV or the Church fathers DO NOT.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


john where did the Apostles state your point? They stated in Ephesians 2 and other places I pointed out. That those who joined them were the true Israel.

Also Jesus said he would draw all men to him. Not that they would just decide on their own. The Holy Spirit convicts all. Then they can choose because GOD gives the ability to choose.

The biggest problem with Predestination and the Bile is that of limited atonement and GOD hates the majority of human beings because of what he did to them.

Universalist came to realize that the Bible does teach GOD is love. So they knew since GOD loves everyone all would be saved.

Some Predestination believe that only those who agree with them will be saved.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/20/16


Hello everyone,

Some of you continue to attack Calvin, but the Doctrine of Election is "Scripture."

Next, as I have pointed out the church (councils, and the fathers) taught, believed, and defended the "Doctrine of Election."

Remember, the Doctrine of Election is and above all taught in "Scripture." Scripture should be the only Infallible Rule for faith and Practice for Christians correct??
---john9346 on 12/20/16




The Reformed/Calvinists dogmatically require an "initial infusion of the resurrection life of Christ into the human soul" for John 6:44 to be effective. The false prophet Balaam heard the Lord speak, his donkey spoke, and both he and his donkey saw an angel all without the benefit of Calvinistic regeneration. Supernatural? Yes! New Birth? No. The Calvinist prides himself in being a defender of God's sovereignty, ALSO limits what God the Father is capable of doing.

Just one of the many subtle errors of Covenant Calvinism. Just look at Galatians.....that the PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT WOULD COME TO THE GENTILES....WHEN? According to Covenant Calvinism, the Spirit/ New Birth was already in Abel. WRONG.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


ActuallyGod, see, Lev 11:44, 1 Pet 1:16 and 2:9, and 1 thes 4:7-8...
---john9346 on 12/19/16

Your verses are worthless.

"Be holy as I am holy" does not describe what holy means. Did you even look at the context?

In Leviticus, God is telling them what not to eat and not to defile themselves with food.

Do you think this is equal to the angels bowing before God and saying "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty" since the dawn of time?

God is sinless but it is not the meaning of Gods Nature or Being. Gods Being is defined by love, and it is love that caused God to create us and to include us in adoption.

When we say God, we must think Trinity, not merely sinless.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/20/16


predestination/election is never said to be unto salvation. Predestination means God has predetermined those who respond to His call...will be justified...and furthermore will be glorified. Those who SUFFER WITH HIM WILL BE GLORIFIED TOGETHER WITH HIM.

TODAY The CHURCH is the elect, because NOW we are IN CHRIST, who actually is the ONLY ELECT, the ONLY ONE foreordained before the foundation of the world. God predestined the BOC ...believers TODAY be conformed to the IMAGE OF JESUS CHRIST. Paul in Philippians 3 CLEARLY SHOW how that is happening to those who are saved.

No OT Saint could have possibly said what Paul said in Philippians 3....being made conformed unto HIS DEATH is how one is being conformed to His Image.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


do you understand why the Lord Jesus had to come and die??
---john9346 on 12/19/16

Wow, let me try.

It starts with Trinity, the deepest knowledge of who God is. Trinity means relationship, fellowship, togetherness, and sharing, with self-giving and other-centeredness not afterthoughts, but the deepest truth about the being of God.

This God determined to create and include the creation within their life. This is why the Incarnation of Jesus was planned, for our adoption.

As Athanasius asked, "what was God to do, when His creation, that He loved, and had destined to such blessing was about to lapse into non-being?

Why everything, including dying to free them from death, sin, and independence.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/20/16


understand (ignorant),therefore, you engage in fabrication...

Did you read Isa 45:5-7 it answers your objection??
---john9346 on 12/19/16

John, the IGNORANCE is all yours when you left out verse 4 of Isaiah 45. AGAIN WHO was God talking to AND what was God talking to them about?

When a Calvinist gets pinned down and has NO ANSWER to some tough questions, they either resort to...WELL IT'S A MYSTERY, or they wip out Isaiah 45:5-7 as if to say a Calvinist can claim anything they want to claim even calling Gods word a LIE and promises a LIE, because after all......look at Isaiah 45:5-7.

John,God CANNOT DO ANYTHING HE WANTS. God CANNOT LIE. GOD cannot be duplicitous. God is not some flimflam used car salesman.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


john9346:

You wrote: sinners have free will but their wills are only free to choose sin

Exactly! By that theory, God created people, who never had any chance at salvation (by his design), but their purpose is SOLELY to roast in hell for eternity. How would you view a dog breeder who bred dogs solely for the purpose of torturing them? Wouldn't you call such a person a sick sadist?

Sinners are dead in their sins they hate God

He MADE them hate him, as they have no choice in the matter.

Rom 9:21 The clay can't complain to the potter, but when a pot is bad, the potter can't blame the pot for it either, can he, since he made it.
---StrongAxe on 12/20/16


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Strongaxe, you say,
"Preaching the Gospel is useless, because God has ALREADY decided beforehand who will be saved."

God has decided who will be save and who will not be saved. Yet we still have to preach the Gospel because the only way the elect will come to Christ is through faith that comes through the word of God, the Gospel of our salvation. And you have the right to make choices in life everyday. So you are not a puppet. You decided what you were going to eat yesterday, what you were going to wear, and where you were going, yet election is still up to God. You were very much responsible for your sins. God did not make you sin. You cannot stop from sinning. you made those decisions.
---Luke on 12/20/16


Samuel, I will answer you, since I feel,like I'm talking to an adult. There actually is no such thing as Covenant Theology, something Calvinism made up. Even the words Covenant Theology are not found in scripture.

There are I believe ( memory fading here) 7 DISTINCT COVENENTS. And Covenant theology,a bogus fictitious covenant called covenant Calvinism AKA Covenant Theology is NOT IN SCRIPTURE. Therefore its teachings are NOT SCRIPTURAL.

The Church is ONE NEW MAN....NEITHER JEW OR GENTILE. WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO IS NOT "AN ISRAEL" . Jacob is ISRAEL .
Jacob represents earthly Israel
Isaac represents Abrahams spiritual
Children. Isaac was never AN ISRAEL.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


Samuel, covenants are extremely important. EVERYTHING is based and grounded in one covenant or another. Covenant Theology teaches folks people were BORN AGAIN from the beginning of Genesis. NOT SO. That came with the NEW COVENANT.....not some covenant that does not exist. I KNOW the Covenants Samuel. The Lord was very gracious to teach me those, and also teach me that anything outside GODS ESTABLISHED COVENANTS are false doctrine where cults come from. Just a little truth does not make it ALL truth. The devil KNOWS How to Lure you in with a little truth ...and then totally takes you over once you are sucked in. BECAUSE I KNOW THE COVENANTS....I can never be duped into believing any false doctrine ...even Calvinism.
---kathr4453 on 12/20/16


strongaxe states, "Here is the biggest problem with election. It directly contradicts free will."

1. This is a failure to understand sinners have free will but their wills are only free to choose sin see Jn 8:34.

2. Sinners are dead in their sins they hate God and do not love him see Rom 3:10-19, and 8:7-8 Eph 2:1-9.

3. Preaching the gospel is the Elect's Responsibility in obedience to the Lord see Matt 28:18-19.

4. Who the "Elect." are is none of our business... see, Deut 29:29 Isa 40:13-14.

5. Paul addressed your objections in Rom 9:9-23 please read this sir...

May God open your eyes to his word,

John
---john9346 on 12/19/16


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Kathr said, "Yes John God is sovereign, no one disputes that. HOWEVER, your claim that God is sovereign means God can lie when He wants, murder when He wants and rape and molest children when He wants.....all He has to do is command Satan to do it and walla, God did it." questions:

Ma'am, this is your failure to understand (ignorant),therefore, you engage in fabrication...

Did you read Isa 45:5-7 it answers your objection??
---john9346 on 12/19/16


Kathr states, "And John, ALL of the Apostles understood the difference between Israel and the CHURCH."

Agreed, but not as you are attempting to state.

Kathr, Tell us all in Jn 6:37-44 where is John saying only the Jews??

InJn 10:11-29 where is John saying only the Jews and no one else??
---john9346 on 12/19/16


Kathr,

pay attention ok?

Your argument is Adam and Eve were not fully dead because they knew they had sinned,however, did they turn from their sins is my question to you because repentance is what separate a dead sinner from an alive saint.

Also, tell us, when dead Adam and Eve sin.

Remember you stated, ""When man sinned they did not become depraved animals."
---john9346 on 12/19/16


Kathy well I agree with a lot of what you said. But the church is the New Israel because the Bible says so. Covenant theology and the church being Israel is from the time of Calvin till Darby. There are even Christmas hymns that remember that.

Read Ephesians 2.
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 3:6-9 Romans 2:28,29
---Samuelbb7 on 12/19/16


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Yes John God is sovereign, no one disputes that. HOWEVER, your claim that God is sovereign means God can lie when He wants, murder when He wants and rape and molest children when He wants.....all He has to do is command Satan to do it and walla, God did it.

That is some sick doctrine John. And it appears with your belief here that God is also a coward, using others to do His dirty work that goes against His nature. So when YOU sin and say the devil made me do it....you are really saying God made me do it, correct. YET we have James who says the complete opposite as you.

And John, ALL of the Apostles understood the difference between Israel and the CHURCH. Calvin didn't and that is why his doctrine is so messed up.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/16


John, are you saying Adam and Eve are in Hell, because no scripture says they repented ?..did God say REPENT? Or did God cover them in animal skins? Was that not a type and shadow of our sin being COVERED, WHICH WAS OT and today in Christ our sin is totally washed away.

Where does it say Cornelius and his family repented? Yet they HEARD and must have BELIEVED. Did Peter FORGET to tell them they first must repent of their sin...REPENT MEANING TURN AWAY.

Funny, it wasn't until AFTER I was saved that I actually had any POWER to turn away from sin. I actually needed salvation so that I could turn away from sin. It doesn't mean I didn't KNOW I was a sinner.

So what exactly is your definition of repent?
---kathr4453 on 12/19/16


Mark:

"And who defines what Holy means, you and John Calvin?"

ActuallyGod, see, Lev 11:44, 1 Pet 1:16 and 2:9, and 1 thes 4:7-8. In the categorical of "Holy." without sin is the meaning of God's Nature.

"Justice is about setting things right, turning mankind back to God instead of turned away to independence. Justice is not about punishment and penalty."

Sir, Correction, see, Isa 61:8, 30:18, and Deutt 32:4.

"Your Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement has painted the face of the Father with anger, with the need for payment, the need for punishment."

Sir, really? do you understand why the Lord Jesus had to come and die??
---john9346 on 12/19/16


samuel states, "But that does not mean he forced them to be lost."

Agreed, and TULIP doesn't teach this doctrine.

If someone is dead and you make a decision concerning them are you forcing them to do something??
---john9346 on 12/19/16


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Kathr ask, "One verse in scripture says SATAN has blinded their eyes, and then another says God has blinded their eyes. Ok we all know God and Satan are not one In the same...soooooo what possibly could this contradiction mean?"

Isa 45:5-7 has your answer God is the cause of everything he is "Sovereign."...

Kathr said, "So please Stop taking verses belonging to ISRAEL and applying them to everyone."

Did you tell this to Paul, Peter, and John and the other apostles??
---john9346 on 12/19/16


Kathr:

"
Kathr said Genesis 3:7 prove God never blinded anyone's eyes to sin. The fact that they KNEW they were naked when NO ONE told them proves they were not so depraved as to not be convicted of sin. They HID, showing a conscience they sinned."

question, did Adam and Eve repent? What did they do when they sinned??

"When man sinned they did not become depraved animals."

But the question again did they repent yes they knew they sinned, but did they repent of their sin?? What did they do after they sinned??

The chapter of Gen 3 tells you.
---john9346 on 12/19/16


Luke:

Here is the biggest problem with election. It directly contradicts free will. If ONLY those who God draws are saved, and ALL those who God calls are inexorably drawn to him are saved, there is absolutely nothing we can do (good or ill) to affect that, so why bother even trying? We are puppets on a string, without the ability to make choices for ourselves, so we might as well not even try. Just sit down, bring out the popcorn, and enjoy the movie. Preaching the Gospel is useless, because God has ALREADY decided beforehand who will be saved.

It also portrays God as a sadist - for punishing most people with eternal torment for actions that he made them do, as they had no choice to do otherwise.
---StrongAxe on 12/19/16


Strongaxe, I thought you were arguing about God having the right to murder. I was not talking about Calvin. I don't know how many he murdered. I really do not even care. Election is taught by all reformers. And they got it from Scripture. It's there and anyone with open eyes can read it. But they deny it as if Calvin invented it. Well, he didn't. It comes right from the Word of God. And God has the license to do what He wants with His creation, and does what He wants.
The tulip is denied by professing Christians.
They see it but drive right by it as if it wasn't there.
---Luke on 12/19/16


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Sir, God is also holy, Righteous, and just.
---john9346 on 12/16/16

And who defines what Holy means, you and John Calvin?

Holy as it refers to God means unique, different, set apart. Such is Trinity, different than anything else in the cosmos.

Holy does not refer to sin and sinless. God existed in Trinity and Holiness before sin ever existed.

Justice is about setting things right, turning mankind back to God instead of turned away to independence. Justice is not about punishment and penalty.

Your Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement has painted the face of the Father with anger, with the need for payment, the need for punishment.

It is wrong and will lead to the downfall of Protestantism.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/19/16


When people choose to blind themselves to the truth. They are lost. The people that refused to believe was what Isiah predicted. They choose power and self righteousness over GOD.

They were drawn to Jesus. But he was too poor and demanded too much. GOD knew what they would choose. But that does not mean he forced them to be lost.

There are two possibilities. GOD forces or GOD allows. Either way it is GOD who has the power.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/18/16


One verse in scripture says SATAN has blinded their eyes, and then another says God has blinded their eyes. Ok we all know God and Satan are not one In the same...soooooo what possibly could this contradiction mean? Those who have studies to show themselves approved unto God rightly dividing the Word of truth KNOW God blinded ISRAELS EYES ( ISRAEL,THE NATION, NOT INDIVIDUAL JEWS, UNTIL YOU JOHN A GENTILE COULD BE GRAFTED IN. Romans 11.

And to the others SATAN has blinded their eyes until the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine into them. TWO entirely different matters.

So please Stop taking verses belonging to ISRAEL and applying them to everyone.

If you can't do that John...YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO TEACH.
---kathr4453 on 12/18/16


Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together..

Kathr said Genesis 3:7 prove God never blinded anyone's eyes to sin. The fact that they KNEW they were naked when NO ONE told them proves they were not so depraved as to not be convicted of sin. They HID, showing a conscience they sinned.

When man sinned they did not become depraved animals.

The GOSPEL is founded on this very foundation of Adam and Eve's sin. To say their children inherited blinded eyes is not found in scripture. Nor do you see any verses God OPENED Abrahams eyes, or Noah's Eyes. And look at JOB, an already righteous man who did not really SEE ANYTHING until after he suffered.
---kathr4453 on 12/18/16


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"What sign is given to the chosen, so they know they have been chosen?" Answer,See 1 Jn ch 3. --john9346 on 12/13/16

John
If you are referring to (1 John 3:9-10) I agree, for sin, is the mark, of those still waiting to be adopted into the family of God. And when sin dies, and that sin which held them in bondage is taken away, this is when the believer knows they have been adopted.

I'm glad you believe this too. Many don't believe this. They believe being born of the seed of God is no different from being born into sin, for they still continue to sin after being born of Gods Holy Seed.
---David on 12/19/16


Luke:

You wrote: Strongaxe, again you charge God with murder. God does not murder anyone. As Judge of all humanity, He can do whatsoever He wishes to do with His creation.

Where did I do that?? Show me!

I said CALVIN was a murderer, not GOD. Just because God can freely kill anyone he wants, that license does not transfer to anyone who proclaims himself a Christian leader. Unfortunately, many so-called Christian leaders in the past, and even many extreme cultists today, e.g. Jim Jones and David Koresh, seem to have overlooked "Thou shalt not kill").

If you are not one of the elect ... then you are and enemy to God.

What did Jesus say to do to our enemies? LOVE them, NOT kill them!
---StrongAxe on 12/19/16


samuel said, "Since Jesus said it. I believe it."

Sir, in referencing Jn 12:32 did you continue reading?

Here is what Jesus went on to say, "39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
---john9346 on 12/18/16


Brendan said, "That smacks of election, which is something I TOTALLY reject."

wow! to reject the Lord Jesus's Words that are clearly stated, "hile I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled."
---john9346 on 12/18/16


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Brendan said, "I'm sorry for anyone that feels that they have been "elected," and then fall into real suffering (fatal disease, torture, imprisonment for Jesus sake, etc"

Sir, Not sure of your point since some of the most joyful and happiest individuals of history and today who fell in to real suffering (fatal disease, torture, imprisonment for Jesus sake, etc.) Have been men and women who affirm and followed the Blessed Doctrines of Calvinism/Election/Predestination/Augustinianism.

---john9346 on 12/18/16


samuel states, " Being a Calvinist does not make you lost or saved. Being Born again by the power of GOD alone makes a person saved."

But how are sinners saved??

Is it the understanding that salvation is of the Lord or is it sinners who are dead can all of a sudden just decide "Hey! I'm save of my own choosing I'm dead, but I chose."

Samuel, tell us, which is true??
---john9346 on 12/18/16


Strongaxe, again you charge God with murder. God does not murder anyone. As Judge of all humanity, He can do whatsoever He wishes to do with His creation. You don't like that, so you say He murders some and the rest are saved.
Here is what happens,
If you are not one of the elect, who have come to Christ, including all those who will come to Christ in the future, then you are and enemy to God.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them." Romans 1:18,19.
---Luke on 12/18/16


Being a Calvinist does not make you lost or saved.

Being Born again by the power of GOD alone makes a person saved.

The saved will be known by loving others.

But Jesus said.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Since Jesus said it. I believe it.

Merry Christmas.
---Samuelbb7 on 12/17/16


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So again my question to you were the men of the Council of Ephesus, and the Council of Orange who believed and taught the Doctrine of "Election." also, "False prophet/preacher who led their flock away from God, and supplied a cruel demon to replace Him??"
---john9346 on 12/16/16


strongaxe,

Note following from the church fathers regarding the "Doctrine of Election:

"Let us, therefore, approach him with holiness of spirit, lifting unto him pure and undefiled hands, loving the kind and compassionate Father who hath made us a part of his elect."

First Clement 29:1



"To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father."

Ignatius of Antioch (Prologue to the Ephesians)
---john9346 on 12/16/16


Mark states, "God is love. Not HAS love, but IS love. God is Trinity, a relationship without end, with love being the attribute of that relationship. A love that is other-centered, self-giving and eternal."

Sir, God is also holy, Righteous, and just. It is a failure in understanding God when we choose to exalt 1 of his attributes over the others...
---john9346 on 12/16/16


Mark states, "No, sir, our Triune God is not a God of Limited Atonement. He predestined ALL for adoption and died so that ALL can participate."

Sir, Hear the words of the Lord Jesus:

Jn 10:


11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
---john9346 on 12/16/16


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Luke: God can execute whom HE pleases (e.g. Ananias and Sapphira) but does not give US that right.


john9346:

You TOTALLY missed my point! Calvin's theology allowed him to murder those who disagreed with him. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles taught that. Thus, the body of theology Calvin believed, taken as a whole, was corrupt. It doesn't matter who first taught it. It was NOT the gospel of Jesus and the Apostles. Parts of it were, but certianly not all of it. Otherwise, we should feel free to go churches of other denominations and murder everyone there willy nilly because they believe differently.

Canon 3: Prayer is not a magic formula that conveys grace, but we can ASK God, and he may, if HE wills, convey it.
---StrongAxe on 12/16/16


strongaxe said, "Regardless of who started it, it is no excuse for murdering those who disagree with him. That alone should make Calvin's entire belief system suspect,"

This is exactly my point the Doctrine of Election didn't start with Calvin.

The Doctrine of Election was taught by Jesus and his apostles, the prophets, the church fathers, and councils.

So again my question to you were the men of the Council of Ephesus, and the Council of Orange who believed and taught the Doctrine of "Election." also, "False prophet/preacher who led their flock away from God, and supplied a cruel demon to replace Him??"

---john9346 on 12/16/16


CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God,
he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me, I have shown myself to those
who did not ask for me" (
Rom 10:20,
quoting
Isa. 65:1).
The Council of Orange (Canon 3)
---john9346 on 12/16/16


CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through
the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (
Prov. 8:35,
LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (
Phil. 2:13).

The Council of Orange (Canon 4)
---john9346 on 12/16/16


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CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask,
or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength
to do all these things as we ought, or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is
a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (
1 Cor. 4:7),
and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (
1 Cor. 15:10).
The Council of Orange (Canon 6)
---john9346 on 12/16/16


Sir if Jesus died for everyone then everyone would be saved.
---john9346 on 12/15/16

I choose to see the question as being, "why did God create" if God did not die for everyone. Why create beings who are destined for destruction?

God is love. Not HAS love, but IS love. God is Trinity, a relationship without end, with love being the attribute of that relationship. A love that is other-centered, self-giving and eternal.

Love would not create just to destroy. Love would create to include, to participate with, to enjoy, to love. Parenthood as a reflection of God tells us this.

No, sir, our Triune God is not a God of Limited Atonement. He predestined ALL for adoption and died so that ALL can participate.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/16/16


Strongaxe, you say:
"Regardless of who started it, it is no excuse for murdering those who disagree with him."

You are saying it is not right for God to make his sentence against all those who hate Him. That He should treat those the same as those who love Him. Only the elect will love Him. The non-elect will never turn to Christ. They cannot. They are spiritually dead to Christ.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" 1 Cor. 1:18. God is Sovereign and can do whatsoever He wants to do with His creation.
---Luke on 12/16/16


strongaxe states, "Your own quote, John 6:37 "...and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." says ANYONE can come to Jesus and be saved, but electionism denies that, saying if you're not from the very elect, you might as well give up, since it can't happen."

Sir, you only quoted the end here is the entire verse, "

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Note the words of the Lord Jesus, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me,"

strongaxe, Who is doing the giving in this verse??
---john9346 on 12/15/16


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"But to an Orthodox Christian, Tradition means something more concrete and specific than this. It means the books of the Bible, it means the Creed, it means the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils and the writings of the Fathers, it means the Canons,"
(Ware, Timothy (1993-04-29). The Orthodox Church (Kindle Locations 3060-3063). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition. p. 196)
---john9346 on 12/15/16


strongaxe:

I wrote: (Note that despite separating himself from the so-called evils of the Catholic church, Calvin murdered people who disagreed with him.

You wrote: Strongaxe, did you know sir the "Doctrine of Election." didn't start with Calvin there were many councils as well even one of the 7-Ecumenical Councils who believed in the "Doctrine of Election??"

Regardless of who started it, it is no excuse for murdering those who disagree with him. That alone should make Calvin's entire belief system suspect, if he thought it authorized murder. Try using the "but they did it first!" argument the next time you're arrested for a crime, and see how far it gets you.
---StrongAxe on 12/15/16


mark states, "It is both. It is a relationship, a covenant, a unbreakable bond. It starts with both sides deciding for that relationship."

But sir sinners are dead and dead people can not make choices see Eph 2:1-9.

Mark states, "God decided His side before the foundation of the world, and He choose all of us. Jesus secured the means on the cross."

Sir if Jesus died for everyone then everyone would be saved. Remember, he stated in Jn 19:30 "It is finished."
---john9346 on 12/15/16


strongaxe:

"Monk Brendan was referring to Calvin. Once again, you take his words, twisti them into blasphemy against Jesus, then condemn him for it."

Sir, his statement is very, "Self Explainatory." I'm only calling him on it...

"(Note that despite separating himself from the so-called evils of the Catholic church, Calvin murdered people who disagreed with him."

Strongaxe, did you know sir the "Doctrine of Election." didn't start with Calvin there were many councils as well even one of the 7-Ecumenical Councils who believed in the "Doctrine of Election??"

So, Brendan is in Direct Conflict with one of the 7-Ecumenical Councils he stated he believes...
---john9346 on 12/15/16


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Strongaxe,

So, tell us all, were the men of the Council of Ephesus, and the Council of Orange who believed and taught the Doctrine of "Election." also, "False prophet/preacher who led their flock away from God, and supplied a cruel demon to replace Him??"
---john9346 on 12/15/16


john, why are you asking the same question twice?

Did you like the answers you got the first time?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 12/15/16


According to Jn 3:16 do you believe everyone is saved??
---john9346 on 12/15/16

Everyone is predestined for adoption into the family of God.

The either/or concept of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is incorrect. Its not only God who chooses us any more than it is only us who chooses God.

It is both. It is a relationship, a covenant, a unbreakable bond. It starts with both sides deciding for that relationship.

God decided His side before the foundation of the world, and He choose all of us. Jesus secured the means on the cross.

But the rest remains for us. We must decide we want relationship with God. And God respects us enough to allow us to not choose relationship.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/15/16


john9346:

Re: John 12:32. A magnet draws all iron to it, but not all iron actually sticks.

Monk Brendan was referring to Calvin. Once again, you take his words, twisti them into blasphemy against Jesus, then condemn him for it. (Note that despite separating himself from the so-called evils of the Catholic church, Calvin murdered people who disagreed with him - something neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles did. I wonder where he got THAT idea? Could it be... Satan?)

Your own quote, John 6:37 "...and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." says ANYONE can come to Jesus and be saved, but electionism denies that, saying if you're not from the very elect, you might as well give up, since it can't happen.
---StrongAxe on 12/15/16


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samuel:

a couple questions for you:

1. According to Jn 12:32 do you believe that everyone is saved??

2. According toJn 3:16 do you believe everyone is saved??
---john9346 on 12/15/16


Brendan states, "This is foolishness. Electionism is a false doctrine preached by a false prophet/preacher who led his flock away from God, and supplied a cruel demon to replace Him."

Wow, so the Lord Jesus is a "CruelDemon."??

Note his words in jn 6:37 and 39, "nd believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again raise it up again at the last day."
---john9346 on 12/15/16


Samuel, you say something not found in the Tulip. You say:
"TULIP teaches these verses are false. That GOD is not love but hates the majority of people and chooses for them to not be saved."

The Tulip doesn't teach what you said. Your interpretation of the Tulip is so corrupt. If you are going to accuse the teaching, you should show where it teaches what you said. Put down some facts from the Word of God.
God loves the elect, those who will be called and those He has called already. He will not let one of them be lost. Jesus guarantee's it, when He gives us the Holy Spirit.
What about those who hate God? Well, they have to pay for their hate towards Christ.
The whole world will not be saved.
---Luke on 12/15/16


samuel states, "To convict means to show they are lost. Now a person who is convicted by the Holy Spirit has been awakened from being dead. They know they are sinners. But they must choose. To believe in GOD or reject him. That is how the dead can choose. Because GOD shows them wakes them up and then lets them choose."

Sir, thanks for answering the question on conviction. So if the sinner is awaken is he still dead? If the sinner can "Choose God." is he still dead or alive??


when you respond remember Paul's Words Eph 2:5-6.
---john9346 on 12/14/16


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John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

This shows that GOD will draw all to himself.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

TULIP teaches these verses are false. That GOD is not love but hates the majority of people and chooses for them to not be saved. So they can burn in hell for all eternity for something that they could not do.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 12/14/16


Kathr ask, "BUT where does unrighteousness say one is totally void of a conscience of knowing right from wrong?"


Again, Paul clears this up in Rom 1:18-32 Moral right and wrong,however, he doesn't stop there he goes on in Rom 3:10-12 to further explain why sinners do what they do in Rom1. He explain in Rom 3:10-12 that it is the nature of sinners which dictate their behavior in Rom 1:18-32.

In Eph 2:1-9 when describing sinners Paul states that sinners are, "Nekros." meaning dead in Greek.
---john9346 on 12/14/16


Kathr said, "I did answer your Question on "foreknew". I also backed it up with scripture."

No ma'am, you didn't answer this question. The Greek Word, "Proginosko." Foreknew is a verb meaning God's Action his participation in predestinating the Elect. This is an Intimate Knowing...

Rom 8:29 speaks of all.

What you are failing to understand is Paul is taking language that was "Exclusive." to Israel and applying it to every Ethnicity of People where the elect is to be saved.
---john9346 on 12/14/16


Kathr states, "The TULIP is not taught anywhere in scripture or anything resembling the foundation of the prophets and apostles.

Again, Listen carefully pay close attention:

Jn 6:37-45, 64-65, 10:11-16, 26-29, 17:1-9, Rom 3:10-19, 8:29-39, Rom9:9-23, Eph 1:4-11, etc.
---john9346 on 12/14/16


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david answers to your questions:

These are good questions you have asked...

1. "What sign is given to the chosen, so they know they have been chosen?"

Answer,See 1 Jn ch 3.

2. "Why would someone become a follower of Jesus Christ, if God has already made his choice, as to who he will save?"

Answer, See Jn 6:37-39 10:11-16, 26-29, Rom 8:29-39...

Again, good questions sorry I couldn't get to them on the other posting.
---john9346 on 12/13/16



6) If YOU are (or were) never LOST, then according to Scripture, you can't be saved.

Again, Listen to Jesus he explains this, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
---john9346 on 12/13/16


7) The GOOD NEWS is that ALL have sinned (Rom 3:23) and were thus once lost, so ALL can be saved IF THEY SO CHOOSE.

And did you read before vs 23??

Note, Rom 3:11, "11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

So Jerry the sinner that doesn't "Seek after God." and neither "Understands." is going to choose God right??
---john9346 on 12/13/16


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