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Fathers Of The Church

There are some individuals here who seem to think we shouldn't read or quote the Church Fathers nor the councils.

question:

Does "Scripture." forbid Christians from reading and quoting the Fathers and the councils of the church??

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 ---john9346 on 12/27/16
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MarkEaton, I believe your view of the atonement has God and Jesus pitted against one another. I believe that is really a strange conclusion since scripture says Jesus came to do the will of God. Jesus also said He could lay down His life or take it up....having FREE WILL, yet chose to do the will of the Father. No one can come to the Father except through His Son. The everlasting covenant from before the foundation of the world was the covenant between Father Son and Holy Spirit on your behalf. Jesus prayed, if there be any other way....and no there wasn't, sweating blood Jesus willingly suffered and died for you and me and all out of LOVE. Gods wrath was towards SIN, while His LOVE was for us.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/17


....God can now bring man back into a Godly relationship with Him who are justified by HIS BLOOD
---kathr4453 on 1/2/17

First, what you are saying in your post is the doctrine of the Atonement. I agree with your statement and it being substitutionary, that Jesus died for my sins.

Secondly, the theory of Atonement discusses the why of the atonement, why did Jesus die?

Third, the PSA says that Jesus died to satisfy the need for justice, the need for punishment of the Father, and that the Father placed the punishment on the Son.

You talked about death and resurrection. The wages of sin was death, until the resurrection of Jesus.

But Jesus did not die to satisfy the Fathers need for justice.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/2/17


kathr, have you actually READ any of the Fathers of the Church?

Or are you condemning them from the summit of your abysmal ignorance of them?

Happy New Year!
---Cluny on 1/2/17


To recap:

everyone note:



1. Kathr admitted here that we all need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today,yet, she continue to reject the church fathers.

2. Kathr could never tell us all that when John wrote (1 jn 2:20-21) that he was telling that church that they didn't need their pastor (no one to teach them.)

3. Kathr could never answer the question that as a Jew do she reject the "Sages." which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??"
---john9346 on 1/2/17


Kathr,

In the attention of all the readers here yes or no as a Jew do you reject the sages which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??"

If we all here should have nothing to do with the church fathers, then as a Jew you should have nothing to do with the teachings, beliefs, and traditions of the sages?

Again, my question to you, as a Jew do you reject the sages which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??" yes or no
---john9346 on 1/2/17




Mark states, "If the PSA was factual, the verse would read "He who knew no sin became sin for us so that the Fathers need for justice due our sin would be satisfied"

Sir, what do you think Paul meant by, "That we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

The question you must answer is what Paul stated in the beginning of this verse, "For he hath made him to be sin for us,"

The question is if there is no need for justice then why did Paul in this verse state that Jesus "he hath made him to be sin?"
---john9346 on 1/2/17


Do we not need Bible Teachers and evangelists and pastors?? ---john9346 on 1/1/17

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
---aservant on 1/2/17


Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
---john9346 on 1/1/17
You provided 2 Cor. 5:21 "He who knew no sin became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If the PSA was factual, the verse would read .....
---Mark_Eaton on 1/1/17

Mark_Eaton, maybe you haven't thought this through. First the wages of sin is DEATH. BUT because Jesus rose from the dead, there is VICTORY OVER DEATH. And because it took a perfect sinless sacrifice to atone for all sin everywhere, and Jesus resurrection proves the penalty for sin( death) has been paid....God can now bring man back into a Godly relationship with Him who are justified by HIS BLOOD and saved by His LifeAKA being Born Again.
---kathr4453 on 1/2/17


john9346:

I would think that under Sola Scriptura, that while useful, they would not be NECESSARY - someone should be able to pick up scripture, and be able to understand it, without requiring the need of some religious functionary to explain it to them, according to that functionary's tradition.

Many groups do not believe that. I do know that JWs in particular believe that Christians are not capable of interpreting scripture for themselves, but rather require the wisdom of the Watchtower Society to correctly interpret it for them (which, of course, is one way cults maintain control - by telling people what to think, and not allowing them to think critically for themselves, let they see behind The Great Oz's mask).
---StrongAxe on 1/1/17


John, I believed I showed you in Ephesians 4 and Romans 12 that ALL in the BOC are given gifts, for the work of the ministry until we all grow up unto Him and not be tossed about by every Tom, Dick and Harry that desire to have some sort of superiority hold over you and that we are not to exalt one above another. Why do you believe the Holy Spirit is not as active today as He was at the beginning of the Church Age? We still have the same problem today ...OHHHHH Kay Arthur..OHHHHH Joyce Myers OUOOOOO, Benny Himm, OOOOaaaaa Joel Osteen! Ooaaawww nothing...its IDOLOTRY.

Man needing to worship man has never changed.

I hope that answers ALL your questions John. If it hasn't, then YOU need to pay attention.
---kathr4453 on 1/1/17




Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
---john9346 on 1/1/17

Let me play your game on you.

Do you know the Penal Substitutionary Theory of Atonement? Can you state it clearly?

I have stated that what you are providing is information on the doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement.

You provided 2 Cor. 5:21 "He who knew no sin became sin for us so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If the PSA was factual, the verse would read "He who knew no sin became sin for us so that the Fathers need for justice due our sin would be satisfied"

Do you see the difference?
---Mark_Eaton on 1/1/17


1Corinthians 4: 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes, that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

John, let me suggest you start reading the Bible and obeying the Word of God, and put away your church fathers for a time.

Also, just so you understand, no one here is accountable to you, or even has to answer you. So you might want to take it down a notch.
---kathr4453 on 1/1/17


Kathr states, "
And YOU still have need to be taught from church fathers where NO SCRIPTURE EVER VALIDATES SUCH MEN. Your whole mindset is unscriptural SIR."

Kathr,

Ma'am, please pay attention, I only said that the fathers never claimed apostles and prophets do to you not understanding that Mormons and Jw's refer to their leaders as apostles and prophets.


Ma'am, you still haven't answered the question for us. Do we not need pastors, Teachers and evangelists to teach us the bible today??
---john9346 on 1/1/17


Kathr states, "
And with that NO ONE NEEDS these old church fathers anymore than Job needed the wisdom and advise of his friends."

Ma'am, tell us all, if you go to church, do you not need your pastor? Do we not need Bible Teachers and evangelists and pastors??

---john9346 on 1/1/17


Kathr,

First, this posting is on the church fathers and not freewill,however, it is contradictory and very inconsistent that you don't believe in the church fathers and then you turn around to try to watch them on freewill lol

I do give you credit for at least trying :-)

Start with Augustine's Confession it will introduce you to Augustine.

Next, read Clement's first letter to learns his thoughts on predestination or freewill.

Kathr, I don't watch videos or google or Wikkipedia I read and study the fathers in their own words which I challenge you to do so...

Remember, Adonai doesn't take delight in "Falsehood."

Why you are at it read the canons of the Councel of Orange.
---john9346 on 1/1/17


questions that need to be answered:


1. I am still waiting for Kathr to tell us all do we not need pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists to teach us today.

2. I am still waiting for Kathr to tell us all when John wrote (1 jn 2:20-21) was he telling that church that they didn't need their Pastor??

3. I am waiting for Kathr to tell us all as a Jew do she reject the "Sages." which are equivalent to the "Church Fathers??"

4. I am waiting for Mark to address not dismiss the verses that have been provided to him on the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.

5. I am waiting for Mark to address not dismiss the church fathers that have been provided to him on the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.
---john9346 on 1/1/17


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\\Yet for some reason we have highly exalted those in the beginning of the church age as some sort of supernatural freeks who are given more honor than anyone else?\\

THE AGE OF THE Fathers has not closed. To say it has is to say the Holy Spirit has stopped working.

The Fathers are given more honor because their writings are more useful.

BTW, being persecuted is NOT the same thing as suffering scorn for being obnoxious in the Name of Jesus.

Happy New Year!
---Cluny on 1/1/17


aservant:

You are confusing two very different meanings of "free" - free (as in speech) and free (as in beer). The first means "without constraints", and the second means "without cost". "Free will" means "unconstrained will", not "will without cost". Rather, cost is very much a part of it. Wee have the freedom to choose our own actions, but then we must bear the consequences of those actions.
---StrongAxe on 1/1/17


Mark_Eaton, certainly we can share and fellowship in our faith with other believers and pray for one another through our life journey. God has given all of us who are born again a measure of faith and our gift to use for His Glory and says we are not to exalt one above another...which really is Idolotry. Romans 12 the whole chapter is awesome.

There are no lone-wolfs in the BOC. Certainly outside the BOC. If perhaps He leads you to go alone to minister in places no one else will go.....even to the point of death.....you may be a lone sheep, but you are never alone. " I will never leave you or,forsake you". The quest for Head knowledge is not what we are called to...the quest to be conformed to His Image IS.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/16


Cluny, many have suffered and died for being Christians. Jesus told us we would. Yet for some reason we have highly exalted those in the beginning of the church age as some sort of supernatural freeks who are given more honor than anyone else? Christians from Abel to today (Hebrews 11) have suffered and died for the faith, and many out of "religion " have also suffered and died. So just because someone suffered for their faith as even Joseph Smith did, does not prove anything.

Suffering for the sake of the CROSS is again a totally different matter. Hebrews 11 represent those who looking forward suffered for the sake of the cross. And many more after the cross, all having one common bond....Philippians 3 the whole chapter.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/16


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freewill

Freewill = (without cost)will

If men will be punished (including their families and descendants) - Ex 20:5, for not obeying God's commands and statutes, there is no such thing as (without cost)will.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are . . . to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God implies that obeying other than Him, is switching masters, which is adultery when you are of the Bride.
---aservant on 12/31/16


// That is overcome the evil one as young men first? //

Some did..

//Did they suffer like Paul and Peter?//

Yes. Some, such as St. Gregory Palamas were imprisoned for what they taught. Others, such as St. John Chrysostom were exiled.

// OR were they just highly educated philosophical men debating the scriptures and heretics at that time? //

Some, such as St. Augustine were.

//Were any put in prision for their faith? In other words what are the MARKS they bore in their body of the Lord Jesus?//

Yes, some were imprisoned, as I already mentioned. St. Theodore Graptus, who is observed after Christmas, was branded.

How many of them have you read, kathr?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/31/16


re: freewill

Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you . . .
Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Christians are tethered to Jesus = no freewill
Christians must obey commandments = no freewill


re: wisdom and truths written by early "pioneers of Christian faith"

God describes men as by nature, children of wrath - Eph 3:2, never seeking to do good - Rom 3:10-12, Ps 14:3

Because of our tendency toward evil, whatever truth written by pioneers was from God. Best to go to the Source of Truth.
---aservant on 12/31/16


Or if you need something, you can get it from someone else's faith.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/16

We can disagree with each other on this.

I have stated my concern for the BOC being a collective of lone-wolves. I also understand that it is Christs church and His to preserve.

I am confident of my understanding of 1 Cor. 12 and why it is included in the Bible. I know what Gods calling on my life is and it is not being an apologist.

My prayer for you is that you find people to disciple. You have a great gift. Use it for the kingdom and don't let it go to waste.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/31/16


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Mark _Eaton, it appears you feel safer in groups. Interestingly enough when God tested Job, it was Job alone who was tested. His friends advise was no help, and they didn't even offer truth. James uses Job as an example to us. And look, God spoke to Job, corrected Job, told Job his friends spoke lies. Job repents, prays for his friends, and says....BEFORE I ONLY HEARD, BUT NOW I SEE... He bought Gold tried in the fire. Just as Job also said....I shall come forth as gold.

THIS is what you are missing....thinking you are already rich and have need of nothing....

Or if you need something, you can get it from someone else's faith. But it won't be accounted TO YOU.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/16


Does your " church father" have the same Biblical meaning of "father" as one of maturity? Children, young men, then fathers? Do I KNOW they were OVERCOMERS? That is overcome the evil one as young men first? Did they suffer like Paul and Peter? OR were they just highly educated philosophical men debating the scriptures and heretics at that time?

Were any put in prision for their faith? In other words what are the MARKS they bore in their body of the Lord Jesus?

OR are you all just saying you believe scripture is soooooo difficult, you need someone to dummy it down for you? Even accepting the Gnostic Augustine? Did the Galatians need " The Gospel for Dummies? Or was Pauls teaching sufficient?
---kathr4453 on 12/31/16


2 Corinthians 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


Here's the bottom line. When Paul wrote this, there were no so called church fathers. Yet there were men masquerading around as though they were all that. Men of renoun who probably gave Paul a hard time.

The SIMPLICITY that is in Christ is just that, but only to those who are of the simple faith of Abraham.

I truly am sorry for those who do not have this and are tied up in RELIGION. My first prayer for you would be to obey Romans 12:1-2. An ABSOLUTE NECESSITY.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/16


"For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life ..."

Augustine on Christian Doctrine book 2 chapter 9
---john9346 on 12/30/16


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Cyril of Jerusalem said, ""This seal have thou ever on thy mind, which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures."
---john9346 on 12/30/16


Irenaeus said, ""We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."
---john9346 on 12/30/16


cluny states, "john9643, your quotes from Ss Irenaeus and Cyri of Jerusalme do NOT prove they believed in sola scriptura."

And if you understood the definition of "Sola Scriptura." you wouldn't state such astatement...

Cluny, Cyril of Jerusalem, Irenaeus, and Athanasius understood the doctrine...
---john9346 on 12/30/16


the atonement is NOT a proven fact
---StrongAxe on 12/30/16

As all things must be taken on faith, I agree with you.

However, if atonement (at one with God) is not a fact, we are all dead in our sins and trespasses alienated from God.

But, I see this as a completed work and our world is the proof.

Peter in Acts 2 quotes Joel which says in part "...I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh...".

I believe this happened in the atonement.

And the progress in our world in 2000 years,(autos, planes, phones, etc.) is so much greater than the previous 5000 years bears proof of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/30/16


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Organized religion??? It's not a GROUP thing.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16

My biggest fear for the Body of Christ is statements I have heard: "all I need is Jesus and my Bible", "I attend church in my home", and "I don't need Bible study classes the HS will teach me".

You seem to be confirming these statements.

Jesus did not die so His followers would be scattered. Jesus did not die so His followers would be lone wolves. God did not call us to be divorced from the Body of Christ.

You know the passage about iron sharpens iron.

We are one body, one Lord, one faith.

But how do we know that your faith is the one faith? By talking with others.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/30/16


provided Scripture
provided church fathers
---john9346 on 12/29/16

I am sorry John.

What you have provided and what WE all believe, is Substitutionary Atonement. Every Christian I know, what every Church Father believed, and what the New Testament teaches is that 'Christ died for the unrighteous".

What you have not provided is evidence that Gods justice, which demands punishment for sin, is satisfied by Christ being punished instead of us. This is the essence of Penal Substitution.

Your quote of Justin Martyr does not tell us that Christ took on the curses for the whole human family to satisfy the Father's need for justice. Neither does the quote from Eusebius. Neither do your Scriptures.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/30/16


Not all of us have the same gifts.

I have a gift for music and how to sing one of our services smoothly. This edifies the Church--but it's not among the gifts of Eph.

\\And YOU still have need to be taught from church fathers where NO SCRIPTURE EVER VALIDATES SUCH MEN.\\

Hundred year old manna is better than 20-21st century spiritual junk food, which is usually no more than the ancient heresies repackaged.

And where did you get the idea that Scripture validates you since women are not to presume to teach?

One thing the ancient Christian writers remind us is that it's not just to us--or to you, kathr--that the Word of God came.

BTW--have you actually READ any of them?

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/30/16


I don't care what anyone claims

If you ever listened to a Pastor, Priest, or a Protestant Rabbi you have been influenced by a one or more Church Fathers

Because the ones who gave you a Sermon had to studied the Church Fathers from 70 A.D. - 8th Century

Your footnotes in your Bible (66/73 book Bible) has some reference from the Church Fathers as well.

If someone WISHES to believe he or she is DISCONNECTED from the Church Fathers, SO BE IT!

You can't convince someone who wishes to believe the Bible came down from Heaven ALREADY compiled in a nice leather covering.

Merry Christmas!

That's right! I said Merry Christmas.

It's still Christmas for Cluny and I.

Christmas Friday
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/30/16


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foolish to totally disregard their thinking, as we wouldn't be here without them.

the atonement is NOT a proven fact, but a theory ---StrongAxe on 12/30/16


You rely on and elevate imperfect, evil men (Rom 3:12) in your heart if you want to. I will rely on and elevate in my heart the Perfect, completely Righteous God.

Rom 5:11 . . . our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Did Jesus spill Blood? What other reason to do so, but for atonement?

Here, you've given an example of how men tend to trust the words of men who lie, but doubt the Word of the Author of Scripture, for whom it is impossible for Him to lie - Heb 6:18.
---aservant on 12/30/16


aservant:

If you don't like "church fathers", how about "earliest church leaders"? When talking about scientific movements, we would say "pioneers". In any field, pioneers deal with issues people later take for granted. While their decisions may not have been perfect, it is foolish to totally disregard their thinking as obsolete, as we wouldn't be here without them.


Mark_Eaton:

You wrote: The atonement is a fact, but the why of atonement is only a theory.

Technically, the atonement is NOT a proven fact, but a theory taken on faith, based on ancient writings whose veracity is taken on faith. There is no way it can actually be measured, verified, or independently corroborated.
---StrongAxe on 12/30/16


..
---john9346 on 12/29/16

SIRIn the Body Of Christ, Ephesians 4 says we are ALL given Gifts for the perfecting of the saints....and some apostles and some prophets, ....BUT you say the "church fathers" ( whoever they are...anyone can claim to be one...not mentioned in the GIFTS FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY) never claimed to have any of the gifts of Eph 4? And you call Ephesians 4 BLASPHEMY? And you also claim you are the ELECT? Are you NUTS? WHY are you relying on hundred year old MANNA to satisfy your hunger? You do know manna was to be eaten fresh every day. And YOU still have need to be taught from church fathers where NO SCRIPTURE EVER VALIDATES SUCH MEN. Your whole mindset is unscriptural SIR.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/16


Sir, do you understand what came to the "individual believer" under the New Covenant. Just read 2 Cor 3. Did you think that was ONLY for the Apostles? No, God is writing on and in our HEART every moment of every day. YOU thought it was the 10 commandments? NO SIR. We are all open books of the works of Christ written on OUR HEARTS for all the world to see. You only have dead works memorized in your brain that has no power to MANIFEST to the world or change you from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord. WHY, because YOU don't find it necessary to be conformed to His Death, because as your Calvinist friend said here earlier, "IM THE ELECT...I DONT NEED TO BE TESTED OR TRIED ".

Another LIE.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/16


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And John Sir, just to back up re WROUGHT IN, we see even James validates this as well James 1. The testing of our faith, through trials and tribulations, is where GOD does His amazing work. ( the one MarkVLuke scoffed at) . Do you need wisdom through these times...ASK GOD...not your church fathers. BUT maybe because you ran to the church fathers and NOT GOD, He has given you NOTHING, just as He said.

What is the purpose of our testing....FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINT, to be perfect and entire LACKING NOTHING. And in the end our faith is established, settled, and strengthened. And with that NO ONE NEEDS these old church fathers anymore than Job needed the wisdom and advise of his friends.
---kathr4453 on 12/30/16


John sir, after watching the video, "Did Augustine corrupt the church". I agree with those who are said to be the early church fathers that ALL said we have free will. Clements, with whom Paul in scripture mentions as one of Pauls helpers believed in free will. Therefore we know Paul taught free will.

Augustine was a Gnostic for 9 years before becoming a Catholic monk. It was the Gnostics who believed in total inability, and THAT was considered heresy in the early church.

Augustine DID bring in leaven and corrupted Chriatianity.

So THANK YOU for giving me the curiosity of what the early church fathers believed....FREE WILL. And where the heresy of no free will came from.

TOOOOOOOO FUNNY!
---kathr4453 on 12/30/16


Mark states, "John, I do not know if we are discussing the same thing.
These are theories, not proven facts. The atonement is a fact, but the why of atonement is only a theory."

Sir, first, above all, you have been provided "Scripture." relative to Penal Substitution.

Next, you have been provided church fathers who believed the same thing thousands of years before Calvin, Luther, Presbyterians, etc....
---john9346 on 12/29/16


Kathr states, "We see Mormons making disciples of Mormonism, and JW's making more JW's all based on THEIR church fathers teaching."

Ma'am, you were corrected on this once before Mormons and Jw's do not have "Church Fathers.", but apostles and prophets these are not the same thing.

None of the Church Fathers ever claim such titles as apostles and prophets to do so would have been blasphemy and a heresy...
---john9346 on 12/29/16


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Mike4879:

"All of the New Testament is quotes of the church fathers."

Sir, the church fathers never attested to this as being fact.

"But the only one scholars are sure about is Paul. More question marks are around the other sources."

All Scholars except Liberal Scholars verrify the authenticity of the authors of Scripture. Liberal Scholars deny anything that is Super Natural.

"Writing the gospels were after the disciples had died."

All the gospels were written long before 70 AD while the apostles and eyewitnesses were still alive.

The book of Revelation was written about 80or 90AD this was the last book.
---john9346 on 12/29/16


Mark_Eaton, what you have received may be totally different than what I have received. We see Mormons making disciples of Mormonism, and JW's making more JW's all based on THEIR church fathers teaching. What Benny Hinn may teach is not what I would teach. Our testimony to others is the very work of what the Lord has done in OUR life, not someone else's.

AND Gods JUSGEMENT for sin was placed on Jesus Christ. HE took our wrath. So in that respect I disagree with what ever church father taught you that as well. Also those who KNOW Galatians 2:20-21 and Romans 6 "by reality" do not need AA.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16


Mark_Eaton, that's not the first time you have defended the RCC. Organized religion??? Others hammering out what You have to believe, when Paul tells us truth needs to be WROUGHT IN US. Do you know what that means? Have you ever SUFFERED with the fellowship of His sufferings? I'm not talking about a back ache or cancer, I'm talking about the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, BEING MADE CONFORMABLE TO HIS DEATH. It's a very painful process where truth is WROUGHT IN US. Each one of us goes through a process of being perfected personally, and taught personally as a Child of God. It's not a GROUP thing. And it's not some head knowledge thing that profits YOU NOTHING.

Have YOU ever REASONED together with the Lord?
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16


. . . from reading and quoting the Fathers and the councils of the church?? ---john9346 on 12/27/16

Scripture does not mention or recognize any title, salutation, honor, or tribute named "church fathers".

The church is Jesus' Wife, not an organization. No group of men can honestly respond to the title, "father of the Wife of Jesus", since every person that makes up the Bride has been chosen, called, elected, sanctified, or reserved by the Father God - Jn 6:44 and given to Jesus - Mt 1:21.

As wisdom allows us to eat the fruit and not the branches, one should seek truth. If the title is untruthful, one should suspect the writings to likely hold many untruths.
---aservant on 12/29/16


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First, the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is Scripture
---john9346 on 12/28/16

John, I do not know if we are discussing the same thing.

These are theories, not proven facts. The atonement is a fact, but the why of atonement is only a theory.

Your "facts" are simply more evidence to prove that you are a Calvinist. Calvin was influential in developing the PSA.

The PSA tries to show that the Father "needs" our punishment and penalty to be satisfied.

God needs nothing. The PSA is false.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/29/16


cluny states, "It was demonstrated on another blog that this is not true."

Sir, I believe you are referring to, "Believe the Classic Creeds." Blog. If you think that Mark demonstrated this sir please re read the responses. Do me a favor when you read them please listen...
---john9346 on 12/29/16


strongaxe states, "My point is that IT DOESN'T MATTER whether or not the Church Fathers espoused Sola Scriptura. Because, if it DID matter, it means you are relying on an extra-scriptural authority (i.e. the church fathers) to validate a Christian doctrine (I."


And again, this isn't the teaching of Sola Scriptura. In other words, Sola Scriptura doesn't teach that anyone can't read the church fathers to confirm what Early Christian Doctrine established. If I take what you are stating to its Logical Conclution, listening to pastors and famous Bible Teachers is also wrong.

Strongaxe, give me your definition of SolaScriptura.
---john9346 on 12/29/16


For anyone to say we need the church fathers to explain Scripture actually is DENYING they have any personal relationship with the Risen Christ.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16

This is a bald-face lie.

You have such a prejudice against the RCC that it clouds your judgment.

Scripture is not open to private interpretation. Christian doctrine has been hammered out over thousands of years. Unless your doctrine agrees with others, it is your private interpretation. Look at the doctrine of LDS and JWs to see the fallacy of private interpretation.

How do we fulfill the great commission of Jesus to make disciples unless we mentor and show our disciples the teaching we have received?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/29/16


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Kathr:

"What exactly did the supposed church fathers have that you don't have?"

And What exactly does pastors, Bible Teachers, and evangelists of today have??

"My church fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

And not just yours but Augustine, Justin, Irenaeus, Polycarp,etc. also had Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as their Fathers to...
---john9346 on 12/29/16


Kathr states, "For anyone to say we need the church fathers to explain Scripture actually is DENYING they have any personal relationship with the Risen Christ."

So, for anyone to say we need pastors, Bible Teachers, Evangelists, seminaries, and churches in general is DENYING they have any personal relationship with the Risen Christ.??
---john9346 on 12/29/16


Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can NOT give any witness to Jesus' Resurrection because the Messiah hadn't came yet.

Jews do not call their places of worship 'Church'.

Early Fathers of Church refers to men outside of the those from the NT.

To believe certain people do not have more credence than others is nonsense.

Even Paul believed he had more credence than other teachers JUST because of his own teacher.

He 'dropped his name' to prove his point.

Acts 22:3
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I STUDIED under GAMALIEL and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors.
---Nicole_Lacey on 12/29/16


\\Were they richer, more educated, hand picked by......? Who? //

God.

//It just sounds sooooooo RCC to me.\\

You've tended to have a limited view of things, kathr.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/16


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What exactly did the supposed church fathers have that you don't have? Were they richer, more educated, hand picked by......? Who? Who placed them is such a superior place above anyone else? It just sounds sooooooo RCC to me. But then again Reformed Theology IS no different than RCC except it reformed some of the teachings, not reformed it INDEPENDENCE, and individual priesthood of the believer.

These were just men like today who exalted themselves above others, or tried to anyway to have you in subjection to them and their teaching. CARNAL says Paul. I'm of him or I'm of him. There is a great video " DID AUGUSTINE CORRUPT THE CHURCH" a must see for all to show that the NO FREE WILL began with the Gnostics.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16


john9346:

You wrote: The Church Fathers themselves were men who espouse Sola Scriptura.

My point is that IT DOESN'T MATTER whether or not the Church Fathers espoused Sola Scriptura. Because, if it DID matter, it means you are relying on an extra-scriptural authority (i.e. the church fathers) to validate a Christian doctrine (i.e. Sola Scriptura), which is a direct contradiction to what Sola Scriptura itself says - i.e. that Christian doctrine proceeds from scripture alone. It MUST stand on its own feet, and CANNOT rely on approval by outside sources. Otherwise, the Scriptura isn't Sola, is it?
---StrongAxe on 12/29/16


My church fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So to say we need the church fathers after Jesus resurrection to explain THEORIES of this or that is just plain CRAP.

To Have the faith of Abraham, and to witness personally to the POWER OF THE CROSS, comes through personal revelation of the Holy Spirit when the scriptures ( not mans words) illuminate in the soul. That the LIGHT of the WORD, which alone is living and powerful and sharper than a two edge sword divides between soul and spirit, bone and marrow....

Sure sell yourself short by living vicariously through someone else's experience OR BETTER YET, YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE YOUR OWN.

Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16


For anyone to say we need the church fathers to explain Scripture actually is DENYING they have any personal relationship with the Risen Christ. Do you think He stopped FEEDING ,caring, protecting, perfecting and conforming His Body? Galatians 2:20-21 must really be a mystery or better yet a THEORY some have never experienced or think it no longer applies to today.

No one NEEDS the Church fathers of which it is also known Augustine studied under Gnostics and has co-mingled Gnosticism with scripture. NO THANKS. I PREFER THE UNLEAVENED WORD, ONLY JESUS CAN GIVE ME TO EAT. WE KNOW a little leaven RUINS the whole lump.. God's true elect will NEVER bend the knee to Baal.
---kathr4453 on 12/29/16


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\\I know this is what you maybe have been led to believe, but this is patently false...The Church Fathers themselves were men who espouse Sola Scriptura.
---john9346 on 12/28/16\\

It was demonstrated on another blog that this is not true. Even John Wesley didn't believe it, but urged his followers to read the fathers and understand Scripture in the light of tradition.

Think of tradition as a lens to focus the light of Scripture where it will do the most good.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/29/16


My opinion, all of the New Testament is quotes of the church fathers. But the only one scholars are sure about is Paul. More question marks are around the other sources. Writing the gospels were after the disciples had died and there are things hard to reconcile. It is all human writing to me. I think the O.T. has more authority. The greatest advancement of Christianity came through Constanstine. The influence of Rome most shaped the Christian ity we have today. Christianity was more diverse at first. The canon did not always exist.
---mike4879 on 12/29/16


strongaxe states, "Of course it doesn't. However, if one is specifically arguing about the validity of sola scriptura, appeals to church fathers or ANY other authorities outside scripture must necessarily be irrelevant - because it is pointless to appeal to sources outside scripture to support a position that specifically denies the validity of authorities outside scripture."

And as stated to you on Several Blog this is not the teaching nor is it "Sola Scriptura."

I know this is what you maybe have been led to believe, but this is patently false...The Church Fathers themselves were men who espouse Sola Scriptura.
---john9346 on 12/28/16


Mark states, "The Penal Substitution theory currently in vogue with Protestants was not developed until the sixteenth century by Luther and Calvin."

First, the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is Scripture:Error,

See, Isa 53:3-5, 1 Pet 2:24, Heb 9:26, 2 Cor 5:21, etc.
---john9346 on 12/28/16


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The doctrine of Penal Substitution was taught by the Church Fathers long before the reformation.

"So it is said: 'And the Lord hath laid on him our iniquities, and he bears our sins.' Thus the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world, became a curse on our behalf:"
Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 275-339), Proof of the Gospel

"If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Fathers will, as if He were accursed,"
Justin Martyr (c. 100-165), Dialogue with Trypho
---john9346 on 12/28/16


"It was from this curse that our Lord Jesus Christ redeemed us, when, as the Apostle says: Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made curse for us, for it is written: cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree [Gal. 3:13]. Thus He offered Himself to the death of the accursed that He might break the curse of the Law, offering Himself voluntarily a victim to God the Father, in order that by means of a voluntary victim the curse which attended the discontinuance of the regular victim might be removed."
Hilary of Poitiers (c. 300-368), Homily on Psalm 53 (54)

all fathers quoted above see, Christian Classics Ethereal Library to read more on quotations.
---john9346 on 12/28/16


john9346:

You wrote: Does "Scripture." forbid Christians from reading and quoting the Fathers and the councils of the church??

Of course it doesn't. However, if one is specifically arguing about the validity of sola scriptura, appeals to church fathers or ANY other authorities outside scripture must necessarily be irrelevant - because it is pointless to appeal to sources outside scripture to support a position that specifically denies the validity of authorities outside scripture - i.e. that denies the authority of those sources one wants to appeal to. It is like quoting a Cretan who claims "all Cretans are liars".
---StrongAxe on 12/28/16


The writings of the Apostolic and Patristic church fathers are important because our doctrine must be comprised of ancient revelation, not current revelation, and be never-changing as God is never-changing.

A great example is the theory of atonement. The theory of atonement describes not so much of what was accomplished by the sacrificial death of Jesus, but more of why the atonement was necessary.

The original theory for the first 1000 years after Christ was the Christus Victor theory.

The Satisfaction theory was not formally developed until the eleventh century.

The Penal Substitution theory currently in vogue with Protestants was not developed until the sixteenth century by Luther and Calvin.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/28/16


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***Clement of Rome (d. A.D. 97), Ignatius (d. 110), Polycarp (d. 155), Justin Martyr (the Churchs first major lay apologist, d. 165), Irenaeus (d. 202), Cyprian (d. 258), Athanasius (d. 373), Basil (d. 379), Cyril of Jerusalem (d. 386), Ambrose (d. 397), John Chrysostom (d. 407), Jerome (d. 420), Augustine (d. 430), Cyril of Alexandria (d. 444), Pope Leo the Great (d. 461), and Pope Gregory the Great (d. 604).

The Church demands four major characteristics to be exhibited in the life and works of an early Church leader if he is to be considered a Father of the Church...

(the death of St. John Damascene [cir. A.D. 750] is generally regarded as the close of the age of the Fathers)--Catholic Answers
---Nicole_Lacey? on 12/28/16


The Church Fathers are men such as Augustine, Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Turtullian, Athanasius, Cyprian, etc. They are in categories of East and West having to do with the parts of the Roman Empire of East and West.

They are called Church Fathers do to their expounding and articulation, and defending of the Christian Faith.
---john9346 on 12/28/16


Kathr ask, "John ,how many of the Church fathers did the Apostles have to read? What books and other helps did Jesus use when teaching His Apostles and disciples?"

Ma'am, did you know that Jesus learn from the Rabbis of his day see, Lk 2:46-47? Did you know "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Matt 7:12 was a "Saying." of the culture of that day??

Also, Did you know that Paul quotes the words of Pagan Philosophers in his letters?? See, Acts 17:28, 1 Cor 15:33, and Titus 1:12.If it was

The Church Fathers were Godly Devout Christian Men if Paul could quote Pagans I can for sure quote and read the words of my brothers...
---john9346 on 12/28/16


Kathr states, "Those who are truly Gods Elect have no need that any MAN needs to teach them,"

So, tell us all when John wrote was he telling that church that they didn't need their Pastor??

You do know this letter was written to actually address the Heresy of Gnosticism.

So if we don't need teachers then John writing this letter would have been contradicting himself.
---john9346 on 12/28/16


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strongaxe said, "Also, under Sola Scriptura, it shouldn't matter what Athansius or Irenaeus any other church father believed, since their opinions aren't scripture."

But their opinions were founded, guided, and focus on the "Scriptures."

---john9346 on 12/28/16


\\Who are the church father? //

Such early Christian writers as Ignatius of Antioch, St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Isaac of Syria. Obviously, this is not intended to be an exhaustive list.

\\Why are they referred to as such?//

For much the same reason we refer to Franklin, Adams, and Jefferson (and others, of course) as the Founding Fathers of the USA.

It is out of respect for their wisdom, learning, and teaching of God's word.

They are proof that it's not just to us that the Word of God has come.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!
---Cluny on 12/28/16


Who are the church father? Why are they referred to as such?
---josef on 12/27/16


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