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Jerry6593:

You wrote: By the mathematics of probability, one can compute the chance of an organism self-assembling. This has been done, and the probability is astronomically low - hence impossible.

By those very same laws, the possibility of some extra-universal being speaking and causing life to spontenously appear is not only very low, it is TOTALLY impossible - i.e. 0%. So if you discard abiogenesis because of improbability, you must by the very same reasoning discard Genesis. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Go to your safe space in Canada and hug a Teddy Bear.

Are you even CAPABLE of rational discussion without ad-hominem attacks? I seriously wonder.
---StrongAxe on 1/20/17


MarkA: "Science doesn't say it's impossible, and mathematics CANNOT speak about it, as it is totally outside its scope!"

Again you show your ignorance in this matter. Abiogenesis has indeed been shown to be scientifically impossible. By the mathematics of probability, one can compute the chance of an organism self-assembling. This has been done, and the probability is astronomically low - hence impossible.

Go to your safe space in Canada and hug a Teddy Bear.



---Jerry6593 on 1/20/17


//you are speaking about "average Protestants" rather than "all Protestants", as there are certainly some who have memorized the entire Bible.//

Of course. The same for Catholics. Many believe ALL Catholics don't know the Bible.

//Yes, mass has a daily one-line scripture reading, but there is no systematic regimen of bible study.//

I don't know what mass you went to but it WASN'T a Catholic or Orthodox.

All Masses has over 3 chapters of the Scriptures.

You are confusing the one line Scripture from Protestant Pastor's weekly preaching.

//The average Catholic only knows a few bible passages as well. ---StrongAxe

That's the average thinking of Protestants about Catholics.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/19/17


Colossians 1:13

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Well this verse kills two of Nicole's birds with one stone. Jesus also said: "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD".
Paul tells us at the end of Galatians, we are crucified ( dead) to the world and the world to us. That we are no longer of the world.

Nicole, if someone knows 50 verses whether memorized or not exposing the RCC or anyone as false....GOOD FOR THEM.
---kathr4453 on 1/19/17


Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: I bet you that don't even realize that they are the reason their SSI check will cease.

This makes for good rhetoric, but bad math. Let's assume your figures are correct. Let's also assume 50% of the population contributes to SS. This means there are 160M contributors rather than 210M, around 75%. This would reduce expected SS contributions from 100% to 75%. To reduce them to zero would require additional factors at least three times as significant as abortion. Even if 90% of contributors weren't there, that would reduce payouts to 10%, not zero.
---StrongAxe on 1/19/17




Nicole_Lacey:

You wrote: I REALIZED as an adult, that Protestants ONLY knew about 50 memorized Passages and try to argue with Catholics on just those 50 Passages.

I presume you are speaking about "average Protestants" rather than "all Protestants", as there are certainly some who have memorized the entire Bible.

Your same claim also applies to average Catholics. In Sunday school, they taught us a lot of cathechism, but very few actual bible passages. Yes, mass has a daily one-line scripture reading, but there is no systematic regimen of bible study. The average Catholic only knows a few bible passages as well.
---StrongAxe on 1/18/17


//i.e. that when the government says something, we should believe it instead of assuming they are all liars.//

i.e. Obama's "I promise. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, PERIOD.
"If you like your insurance you can KEEP your insurance, PERIOD!"

Pelosi's "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it away from the fog of the controversy."

The controversy was the GOP telling the public that Obama and Pelosi were lying.

Remember Rep Wilson? "That's a LIE!"? Wilson was right

//Which under ACA more people could afford---StrongAxe

Who wants to pay 150% more premiums and 4 times deductible for the same policy that covers LESS?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/18/17


Your reply was not an answer Nicole, just an excuse not to answer what is right in front of you. The original statement was about YOU making an unbiblical statement to another that that person could not discern the Spirit of God without the Church. There is no such verse that makes such a rediculous statement. Then you say Luke 12 is about demon possession in ones "mind" ,misapplying scripture showing a lack of discernment on your part.

A Born Again Christian cannot be demon possessed. When Jesus comes to live IN someone, do you really think demons can also coexist with God in someone? If the RCC teaches such things the RCC cannot discern the Spirit of God. POINT: be careful what you say to others.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/17


//Nicole. I realize Catholics do not believe this, yet it is all over scripture.//

As a child I believed and was told (in error) that Protestants knew their Bible.

I REALIZED as an adult, that Protestants ONLY knew about 50 memorized Passages and try to argue with Catholics on just those 50 Passages.

Your whole system of Scriptures is designed to combat certain Catholic dogmas. That's it!

Catholics study, memorized and live the Scriptures NOT to debate Protestants, but to LOVE GOD MORE.

//Now can you give exact scripture stating the Church is EARTHLY.---kathr4453

Not catching your ball!

Address your 'Heavenly Church' FIRST and ONLY THEN will I move on.

Give proof or admit you were wrong.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/18/17


Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Nicole. I realize Catholics do not believe this, yet it is all over scripture. Mt SION is in heaven. Mt. ZION is on earth.

Now can you give exact scripture stating the Church is EARTHLY. Remember it must be exact words. No word change games like the one you play with in Luke.
---kathr4453 on 1/18/17




//I gave you several scriptures to back it up.//

NO YOU DIDN'T!

If you had you would have given it to me again with the words 'Heavenly Church' in all caps.

Instead you gave a much of Ephesians Passages, and put in all caps 'Heavenly Places' instead!

Since when it was acceptable to replace the word 'Church' with the word 'Places'??????

//The CHURCH...been raised together with Christ seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST.---kathr4453 on 1/17/17

//Either you are playing games OR you just can't see the truth.//

No I can't SEE your Scripture answer!

//I can't make you see it, only the Holy Spirit can.---kathr4453

No the Bible can as well IF YOU CAN FIND THE Scripture?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/17/17


I just gave it to you Nicole. I gave you several scriptures to back it up. Either you are playing games OR you just can't see the truth. I'm sorry you do not u derstand this truth Nicole. I can't make you see it, only the Holy Spirit can.

But again as I FIRST stated, you made a false statement. Luke says nothing about a wrong spirit entering the mind of someone not in church or having the church to discern if something is the Spirit of God. Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. The WORD of God is right in the Bible, and does not need a group of people to decide if it is of God or of the devil.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/17


Kathr, you forgot you ASKED ME to give you Scripture to back up my statement. I did! Luke 11:24-26

Now STOP PLAYING AROUND and return the favor and give me your Scripture to back up your statement of the Heavenly Church!

//The CHURCH are those who have been raised together with Christ seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST.---kathr4453 on 1/17/17

???

Maybe if you stayed focus you wouldn't have made that statement above.

First give PROOF on that made up phase you gave me: "Heavenly Church".

Chapter and verse?

If you don't have a chapter/verse please be a woman and say so.

We can move on and debate on the rest of my statements.

Please debate in order.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/17/17


Nicole, I asked you to read Ephesians, do I also need to spoon feed you?

Ephesians 1:3 Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The CHURCH are those who have been raised together with Christ seated with Christ in HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 1/17/17


Kathr, debt fairly! We are talking your 'Heavenly Church'. I gave you Scripture

//provide scripture to validate your statement.---kathr4453 on 1/16/17

**Luke 11:24-26 --Nicole_Lacey on 1/16/17

My answer. Remember?

Now you need to give your Scripture, or admit there isn't any so I can give you my Scripture.

//The CHURCH is the HEAVENLY Body of Believers, AKA the Body of Christ.-you

Give EXACT Scripture with the words 'Heavenly Church or Heavenly body'(not angels)----Nicole_Lacey on 1/16/17

//If so, Luke does not say that...so where does scripture say that? ---kathr4453 on 1/17/17

Read Luke 11:24-26 again!

Are you saying when Jesus casted out a demon the person wasn't SAVED by HIM?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/17/17


Nicole, you give no scripture at all. There is no CHURCH in Purgatory. Why, because there is no such thing as Purgetory. We SUFFER NOW..TODAY. THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS. Philippians 3.
We are being conformed to His death NOW.

We are seated WITH CHRIST IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST.

Please read Ephesians too Nicole.

And NO VERSE says that a wrong spirit will enter your mind if you are not in an earthly church. If so, Luke does not say that...so where does scripture say that?
---kathr4453 on 1/17/17


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//The CHURCH is the HEAVENLY Body of Believers, AKA the Body of Christ.//

Give EXACT Scripture with the words 'Heavenly Church or Heavenly body'(not angels)

3 groups of people of the Church.

Militant: Us Members right now on earth.

Suffering: Members of the Church in Purgatory

Triumphant: Members of the Church in Heaven.

//of which no Born Again Believer can be demon possessed.//

Give Scriptures stating born again believer CAN'T be possessed by the devil? Chapter and verse

//It's dangerous for you to make such statements Nicole. You need to think through what you say before you say it.---kathr4453

BACK AT YOU
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/16/17


Nicole, every word I posted was scripture. You SHOULD actually know where each verse is. The CHURCH is the HEAVENLY Body of Believers, AKA the Body of Christ. This is also explained to you in Colossians 1. It was a mystery kept secret until Jesus rose from the dead. The Mystery is Christ IN YOU.

Ephesians 5 & 6 also will explain to you....that we, the CHURCH, are bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh....being ONE with God in Christ , just as Jesus prayed in John 17.

If a "wrong spirit" entered someone, that is demon possession, of which no Born Again Believer can be demon possessed.

It's dangerous for you to make such statements Nicole. You need to think through what you say before you say it.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/17


Kathr, I was speaking about everyone's personal Church. For me the Catholic Church.

But, since you want to ARGUE for me, I will correct your errors.

1. No such thing as the RCC or the heavenly church.

2. The CHURCH is here on EARTH now and today!

//Colossians 3:1-4, how is it possible Nicole that the WRONG Spirit can enter "the mind"..?//

Luke 11:24-26 If you are confused about that Scripture just replace your body/mind for the house.

//Please provide scripture to validate your statement. Without scripture to validate your statement that is only OPINION, not fact.---kathr4453

Since you DIDN'T provide Scripture with your ridiculous statement it MUST mean it just your opinion?
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/16/17


When one thinks he or she is smart enough to discern the Spirit of God WITHOUT the Church is when the wrong spirit enters the mind.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/15/17

What Church Nicole? The RCC? Or the Heavenly CHURCH?

If one is Born Again of the Spirit of God, and lead by the Spirit of God, and one walks in the Spirit and not the flesh, and SEALED by the Holy Spirit, hidden with God In Christ...and we have the MIND OF CHRIST, Colossians 3:1-4, how is it possible Nicole that the WRONG Spirit can enter "the mind", IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE RCC?

Please provide scripture to validate your statement. Without scripture to validate your statement that is only OPINION, not fact.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/17


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//Try thinking outside your denomination's box. Think spiritual, not worldly.---Steveng on 1/14/17

That's the problem.

When one thinks he or she is smart enough to discern the Spirit of God WITHOUT the Church is when the wrong spirit enters the mind.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/15/17


Try thinking outside your denomination's box. Think spiritual, not worldly.
---Steveng on 1/14/17


//Would you, seeing a friend every day, repeat the same thing over and over again, would you?//

You mean like 'good morning' or 'how are you doing'?

I can't say those words? I have to come up with another way of greeting my friend every time I see him?

//The Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 is our model.---Steveng

Those verses you gave were NOT Jesus' Prayers.

Matthew 6:9-This is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven,

Not 'fashion your prayer like this'!

Luke 11:1-2 one of his disciples said to Him, Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.

He said to them, WHEN you PRAY, SAY: Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come...

NOT when you pray FASHION it like..
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/14/17


Praying is simply communicating with God on a personal level. Would you, seeing a friend every day, repeat the same thing over and over again, would you? The Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6 is our model. It begins to acknowledge God like you would calling out to a friend to catch his or her attention. There are lots of things to discuss and ask for in our lives. We present our requests to God by praying to him with thanksgiving. There are many examples of prayers and what to pray in the bible including:

Hebrew 4:14-16
1 Peter 5:6-7
Phil 4:6-7
1 Thess 5:17-18
James 1:6
James 5:14-18
Ps 34:15-18
Ps 105:1-4
Ps 66:13-20
Jer 29:12,13
Matt 11:28-30
Ps 50:15
Act 12:1-17
---Steveng on 1/14/17


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Jerry6593:

You wrote: Now the truth comes out. You don't believe in God.

I never said that! There you go again, leaping to unwarranted conclusions again. There are many supernatural paradigms, including some I know you and I both disagree with (e.g. Hindus).

I got my paradigm from the Bible.

You believe God created heaven and earth in 7 days that were 24 hours long. I believe God created them in 7 days whose lengths we don't know for certain.

Science and mathematics conclude that life springing forth from non-living matter by natural processes is impossible.

Science doesn't say it's impossible, and mathematics CANNOT speak about it, as it is totally outside its scope!
---StrongAxe on 1/14/17


Two, repeated prayers. "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:.."
---Steveng on 1/11/17

How many times have you prayed "the Lords Prayer"? I know many people finish their personal prayers with the "our Father" prayer.

I have personally memorized many prayers (from various sources) so that when I am in severe distress and cannot find the words, I have something memorized to pray.

And yes, I do memorized Scripture. I use the memorization technique that Jack Van Impe developed. I have successfully memorized over 1000 different verses and keep these 1000 in rotation as I memorize more.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/12/17


So Steveng, you think Jesus' Only written prayer given to us needs to be changed?

His words are not good enough for us to repeat in our prayers?

His words should be modified when we pray?

Jesus' prayer didn't isn't Perfect?

//One, statues. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, OR ANY LIKENESS of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:.."---Steveng on 1/11/17

So God forgot His own words?

After all He told them to MAKE A GRAVEN IMAGE and a snake at that and out of bronze.

See WHY I won't accept your interpretation of the Bible?


---Nicole_Lacey on 1/12/17


//repeated prayers...Our Father..." 'After this manner' is meant to set an example, not to repeat it.//

Yet ALL JEWISH CHILDREN recite the Shema:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

You shall TEACH them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when

The Shema prayer was so influential and important that Jesus used it...in Mark 12:2830
JESUS answered,(IN Shema) The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/11/17


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Nicole_Lacey, two things come to mind concerning the catholic church as NOT following God's word.

One, statues. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, OR ANY LIKENESS of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:.."

Two, repeated prayers. "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:.." and "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father..." 'After this manner' is meant to set an example, not to repeat it.

Also, the holy rosary catholics pray repeatedly to a dead person, the Virgin Mary, but not to God.

Prayers are nothing more than talking with God as you would a personal friend.
---Steveng on 1/11/17


//can Catholics say they are the one Christian Church when they are full of idolatry and paganism.//

Because we are NOT full of idolatry/paganism.

Justbecause you say it doesn't mean it's so.

The Catholic Church seems to bother you.

She is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

//Christ is the Head//

True!

//and Foundation of the Christian Church.//

Wrong! Even the Bible states Peter is the foundation of the Church.

And Peter even states the Apostles are the foundation of the Church.

But NEVER does it states Jesus is the FOUNDATION of HIS Church.

//Not Peter or some pope!!!---Rob

Peter is the Foundation of the Church and the Pope is the Vicar of the Church.
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/11/17


How in the world can Catholics say they are the one Christian Church when they are full of idolatry and paganism.

Also Christ is the Head and Foundation of the Christian Church. Not Peter or some pope!!!
---Rob on 1/11/17


//There are about 781 Orthodox Denominations.
There are About 242Catholic Denominations.---john9346 on 1/3/17

Wrong John,

A.D. asked the same question.

***Mike replied: Hi, A.D.
If what you said is true, the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia is wrong or you are misreading something.

The only thing 242 or 245 could possibly represent are religious orders within the one Church.

These are different ways of living out the Catholic Christian life in accord with today's one Catholic Church.

They are not denominations as the Catholic Church has no denominations.
We are the one Church that Jesus founded on St. Peter and His successors.

Hope this helps, Mike
---Nicole_Lacey on 1/11/17


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the celebration of Christmas is not rooted in the Bible . . . "On that day in pagan antiquity . . . ---David8318 on 1/4/17

You fault certain holidays as coming from pagan origins. It seems that you don't understand that you and your sect are pagan.

Your beliefs are certainly NOT Christian:

-Jesus did not rise from the dead
-The blood of Christ does not remove sins
-There is no hell with everlasting torment
-Man has no spirit
-The Holy Ghost is not a person of the Godhead
-Jesus is the created archangel Michael
-Jesus is just an agent of God, nothing more
---aservant on 1/9/17


The Lamb's death was for far more than humbling. Atonement was the primary point.
---aservant on 1/6/17

I do not disagree. As I have stated before, I agree that Jesus was our atonement, without His sacrifice I am not at one with Him, and not at one with the Father.

The point of Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is that Jesus died to satisfy the Father's need for justice, the need for punishment of sins, and that the Father placed this punishment on the Son.

I disagree with this theory.

However, this is a big theory and takes more than 125 words to discuss. But I would like to discuss this with you and whoever desires to.

My desire is to start with the character of God, from the Trinity in eternity.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/8/17


I said to you apologize to everyone here for such disrespect and immaturity...
---john9346 on 1/7/17

I have tried to debate with you. Unfortunately, you do not know how to debate. When debating, you state your case affirmatively and so does the opposite side.

You never stated your side of the PSA. You only asked questions of me. I have responded to your questions yet you never state your arguments.

I have never disrespected you. I try to never disrespect anyone on here. There have been a few people who I have had conflict with on here, and we have agreed to disagree.

I suggest we do the same.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/7/17


"Fifth, if you persist with this line of insulting posts, I will dismiss you."

Mark, if you continue calling others beliefs here a "Theory." and saying that their God is "Bi-polar." they will find you of non-importance. It is beyond insulting like I said to you apologize to everyone here for such disrespect and immaturity...


I will leave you with this:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Cor 13:11




May the Lord grant your eyes to be open to him,


John
---john9346 on 1/7/17


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mark states, "I see no language about death, about the Father killing the Son."

Sir, listen to the words of Isaiah, "And the Lord wished to crush him,"

Mark states, "The word "crush" can be interpreted as "to be contrite", "to be broken", "to humble"."

But what is the "Context." of this verse see vs 4-6.

Also, the hebrew will not agree with your conclusion in rendering the word crush.
---john9346 on 1/6/17


Hello Mark,

Please pay close attention

I am going to address this with you for the last time...

"First, you accuse me of "dancing" around issues yet I have answered every one of your posts. You just do not like my answers."

Sir, Yes, you are dancing around verses stating inaccuracies for example, saying crush doesn't mean what it means when the context is clear. You also never addressed 2 Cor5:21 although you have been asked to do so several times on this post and the other post... You also never answered thequestion what is sin when 1 John 3:4 tells you. Again, not addressing the verses.
---john9346 on 1/6/17


"Third, the Atonement Theory is just that, an unproven theory."

Sir, it is onething to disagree with someone belief, but this is offensive to others here and not to mention very very disrespectful, rude, and immature. You do need to apologize and reword your wording in respect for others.



"Fourth, this is a continuation of a prior blog. Go read my answers there."

Sir, If you had answered, we all here wouldn't need to be asking you to address verses on this posting right??
---john9346 on 1/6/17


"Josef thank you for directly answering my question."

You are quite welcome Bryan. It was my pleasure.
---Josef on 1/6/17


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No one takes it from Him, not even the Father. The Father loves Him because He lays it down of His own free will.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17


I see your point, but I disagree.

The Father is the Puppet Master in Creation. He does not depend on circumstance. He controls circumstance. Many OT examples showing the Father puppeteering events.

The Father controlled the men who wanted Jesus dead, and the circumstances that caused Pilate to consent.

Jesus was saying no man can overpower Me and cause My death. I am cooperating to accomplish my Father's will for Me as His sacrificial Lamb of atonement.

He was still God's offering. Offerer consents, so is responsible for death.
---aservant on 1/6/17


God still is responsible as planner, creator of earth and man, and as the One who executes His plan, usually by puppeteering men.
---aservant on 1/6/17

I know when we discuss God, we can use pronouns like "Him", but if God planned it, then the Trinity planned it, the Incarnation of Jesus.

It was the Father's good pleasure that the Son would willingly lay down His life.

Jesus even tells us that He willingly lays down His life.

John 10:17-18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself"

No one takes it from Him, not even the Father. The Father loves Him because He lays it down of His own free will.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17


---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17

Isaiah 53:10

(CEV) (GNB) (GW) (JUB) . . . suffer as a sacrifice to take away the sin and guilt of others . . .
(Darby) (ERV) (ISV) (KJV) (LITV) (MKJV) (RV) (Webster) (YLT) Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him, he hath subjected him to suffering. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin . . .

These different versions agree in the wording.

Whether the words used are "sacrifice" or "offering for sin", they both mean slayed to shed atonement blood. The Lamb's death was for far more than humbling. Atonement was the primary point.
---aservant on 1/6/17


---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17

"destined" = Father's plan. God = Author of salvation story. Every word in a book (Bible) is the author (God) "speaking". God initiated "atonement" when giving the Law - Ex 29. Whatever God requires is fact, not theory.

The OT priest slayed the sin offering, but atonement blood credit went to the offeror of the sacrifice. Jesus is called the Lamb of God because God offered Him. No offering is slayed if never given. The offerer is responsible for its death, though slayed by another.

God still is responsible as planner, creator of earth and man, and as the One who executes His plan, usually by puppeteering men.
---aservant on 1/6/17


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If anyone here read Isa 53:10 which clearly state that the Father sacrificed his son.
---john9346 on 1/6/17

I do not agree.

Let's look at this verse.

First, lets start with the Jewish translation (JPS 1985) of this verse:

Is. 53:10 "And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill, if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and Gods purpose shall prosper in his hand"

I see no language about death, about the Father killing the Son.

The word "crush" can be interpreted as "to be contrite", "to be broken", "to humble".

In summary, this verse shows the Son being humbled by the Father.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17


First of all, sir, you have always been respected by me so now you are engaging in lying...
---john9346 on 1/5/17

First, you accuse me of "dancing" around issues yet I have answered every one of your posts. You just do not like my answers.

Second, saying "Note, Mark can't address the questions asked of him" is baiting me and is dishonest. I have answered everyone of your questions. Please review my posts.

Third, the Atonement Theory is just that, an unproven theory.

Fourth, this is a continuation of a prior blog. Go read my answers there.

Fifth, if you persist with this line of insulting posts, I will dismiss you.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17


If anyone here read Isa 53:10 which clearly state that the Father sacrificed his son.

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53 is a Messianic Prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ.
---john9346 on 1/6/17


Luke in Acts 2:22-23 attest that God The Father sacrificed his son the Lord Jesus:

"22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
---john9346 on 1/6/17


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Luke states for us all again the same thing in Acts 4:26-27 the prayer of the apostles:7

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God The Father sacrificed his son the Lord Jesus the Second person of the "Trinity." on the cross...
---john9346 on 1/6/17


God planned to slay the Lamb of God from the beginning.
---aservant on 1/6/17

Rev 13:8 does not say the Father has responsibility for the Lamb being slain. The verse shows that Jesus was destined for death from the very beginning. But, Jesus needed to die to overcome death for us!

However, OUR part, mankind part in the Salvation story was to kill Jesus.

Isaiah 53 is written from our viewpoint, the human viewpoint. It starts "who can believe what we have heard?". This is not God speaking. We are speaking and we have decided that Jesus must be smitten by God, abused by God, because the ancient world viewpoint was that God was responsible for everything that happened, good or bad.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/6/17


Rev 13:8 . . . shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God planned to slay the Lamb of God from the beginning.


The Father took responsibility for punishing Job, though Satan destroyed him, as the tool of God. God is the Author who used men as His tools to write Scripture. Surely, The Father can use men as His tool to crucify Jesus.

Is 53:4 . . . stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Is 53:10 the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief . . .
Is 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied
---aservant on 1/6/17


Mark said, "John, I will not be baited, manipulated, goaded, or bullied.

First of all, sir, you have always been respected by me so now you are engaging in lying of which I can not respect..

Next, sir, I do not play games here with the truth there are too many reading who are seeking the truth so if you want to dialog/discuss then yes which means when questions are asked of you do not deflect or avoid answer the questions. You see, when you avoid and deflect that is telling...

Sir, I find very offensive of you "Stating." that the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is a "Theory." Sir, you need to apologize for this wording because it is very offensive.
---john9346 on 1/5/17


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Mark,

What did John the apostle tell you what sin is in 1 John 3:4??

You danced around the question I asked of you and cited part of it, "
"if there is no need for justice then why did Paul state that "he hath made him to be sin??" Before responding please read 2 Cor 5:21??"




---john9346 on 1/5/17


Mark states, "The Father did not crucify His Son,"

Sir, did you not continue reading Isa 53:10.

Also, Mark, your statement, "Excuse me, but your God seems to be bi-polar." is very disrespectful and offensive.

Aservant, has no right to be disrespected.
---john9346 on 1/5/17


Kathr said, "Just ask yourself, do others find you a helpful blogger?"

Have you asked yourself this question...

When your postings are reviewed by everyone, they are so full of racism, Verbal Abuse, condescending, condemning, critical, callous, cruel, negative, judgmental, arrogant/proudful, no love, no compassion for others...

I will never forget how you talk to Brendan on a past posting very very very abusive callous and cruel to him.

Brendan, was needing compassion and empathy and you were so destructive in your words to him...

I will never forget that because that is not the love of the Lord Jesus Christ of "Scripture."...
---john9346 on 1/5/17


God says His wrath will wax hot...The Father crucified His Son...
---aservant on 1/4/17

Do you see a two sided God, a God of Wrath, Anger, and Judgment in the OT and a God of Love, Mercy, and Grace in the NT?

Excuse me, but your God seems to be bi-polar.

The Father did not crucify His Son, mankind did. This is "God in the hands of Angry Sinners".

Jesus told us that only He knew the Father and to whomever He would reveal. No OT author, prophet, or person knew the Father.

Is 53:4 "...Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted".

WE see Jesus as smitten by God, in OUR viewpoint. In fact, it is our sin and rebellion that has smitten Him.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/5/17


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We are accountable ONLY to God
---aservant on 1/4/17

I believe this in theory, but it is not true in our lives.

Our first most important relationship is God. But I do not keep His commandments and statutes under obligation, but willingly out of love.

Out of this relationship flows the relationship with my spouse. There are commandments and statutes within our relationship. The relationships with the remainder of my family flows out of this relationship.

And finally, the relationships outside my family, such as work, church, and friendship, flow out of my relationship with God, spouse, and family. There are commandments and statutes also within these relationships.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/5/17


John, I'm trying to tell you YOUR APPROACH is obnoxious to say the least. So LISTEN UP YOURSELF. you act like no one can tell you anything. You argue with everyone on line and if they choose not to debate with you, YOU POST LIES TO PROVOKE a conversation .....that is what is called juvenile and bullying.

Before YOU give advise to others here online, look at your own behavior and reception.

If someone chooses NOT to answers you John, just LEAVE THEM ALONE. If they have already answered you, then what You do is Cyber-bully. You are a BULLY John. Your approach is chopping of ones ears first, and TNEN you wonder why they don't want to debate with you.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


if there is no need for justice then why did Paul state
---john9346 on 1/4/17

John, I will not be baited, manipulated, goaded, or bullied. If you want to discuss with me, treat me with respect or I will stop talking with you.

Sin is more than missing the mark. It is a pervasive disease that has infected everything in this cosmos. It cannot be dealt with a legal transaction, but with compassion. Punishment hardens the criminal, but compassion can transform a life.

Your second question on justice is best answered with another question, what is justice? Not a man-made legal definition but what I have shown you that God says from the Bible.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/5/17


Kathr,

I want to tell you something and I don't want you to forget this ok?

You can remember this on the posting, "quoting Christian Church Fathers."

Listen to this advice ok?


"Those who do not have good arguments or verses for their views. Often resort to juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks."
---john9346 on 1/5/17


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John, maybe you are SLOW, but it appears YOUR APPROACH, very juvenile and arrogant, is why people don't want to debate you any longer. Just because someone chooses to ignore you, gives you no right to slander and make up lies in that void.

Your whole debating approach is annoying, arrogant, and immature.

You don't want to debate...you want to assault everyone who disagrees with you or your doctrine. TOTALLY ARROGANT AND CHILDISH.

Just ask yourself, do others find you a helpful blogger? That answer isn't far from you.
---kathr4453 on 1/5/17


Hello readers:

Note, Mark can't address the questions asked of him.

So, for the Second time I am going to ask him.

Mark, listen very carefully,

1. Tell us all, What is the definition of sin??

2. I am going to ask you the question a second time, "if there is no need for justice then why did Paul state that "he hath made him to be sin??" Before responding please read 2 Cor 5:21??

---john9346 on 1/4/17


One side is angry, wrathful, willing to punish His Son. The other side is love, mercy, and kindness. ---Mark_Eaton on 1/4/17

FYI:
God says His wrath will wax hot - Ex 22:24, 32:10.

The Father crucified His Son - Is 53.
---aservant on 1/4/17


No accountability means no one keeping you out of the sea of error. ---Mark_Eaton on 1/3/17

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest (condemn) another?

We are accountable ONLY to God, which is being accountable to His Word, i.e., commandments, statutes, etc. No man is better at holding us accountable as is the Holy Spirit living inside us.
---aservant on 1/4/17


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They are not addressing God's Nature in being just
---john9346 on 1/3/17

This is where our knowledge differs. It is the character of God where we disagree.

I have shown you what justice means to our God. It is a "setting things right" with compassion, kindness, and love. Our God meets us in the middle of our need and sets us free from sin and its consequence, death.

In this way, there is no difference in the character of God from the OT to the NT. The God of justice in the OT with love, compassion, and kindness is the same as the God of Love in Jesus of the NT.

Unfortunately, your God seems two-sided. One side is angry, wrathful, willing to punish His Son. The other side is love, mercy, and kindness.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/4/17


Mark,

a couple things:

1. Those verses have to do with how we treat our fellow man.

2. They are not addressing God's Nature in being just.

3. Tell us all, What is the definition of sin??

4. I am going to ask you the question a second time, "if there is no need for justice then why did Paul state that "he hath made him to be sin??" Before responding please read 2 Cor 5:21??
---john9346 on 1/3/17


Jesus is not God...Jesus is a man.
---Steveng on 1/1/17

You should post this to your blog "The Great Falling Away", 'cause boy you have fallen away from the truth.

How did you come up with this "truth"? Did you discuss this with your "church"? Your spiritual mentor? Your spiritual accountability partner? Anyone?

This proves why we need spiritual people in our lives. I just read a post on another blog that said "I am not accountable to anyone except the Lord".

Unfortunately, this person then attempts to speak truth to others.

No accountability means no one keeping you out of the sea of error.
---Mark_Eaton on 1/3/17


if there is no need for justice then why did Paul state that "he hath made him to be sin?"
---john9346 on 1/2/17

Your concept of justice is not Biblical. You make The Father different than the Son.

Look at God's justice:

Is. 1:17 "Learn to do good, Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor, Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow"

Jer. 21:12 "...Execute judgment in the morning, And deliver him who is plundered, out of the hand of the oppressor..."

Zech 7:9 "...Execute true justice, show mercy and compassion everyone to his brother"

Mic 6:8 "...And what does the Lord require of you? But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God"
---Mark_Eaton on 1/3/17


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Steveng, how in the world can you criticize denominations when you yourself do not even believe Jesus is God in the flesh? You are as unbelieving as Tomas was until Jesus told him, "do not be unbelieving, but believing" "And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God" John 20:28.
In the flesh He was human, but spiritually He was God. This is all by faith. Jesus said:
"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" John 20:29.
---Luke on 1/3/17


If Jesus is God then why did He not know when He would return? Matth 24:36, Mark 13:32 ---Steveng on 1/1/17

So, because your father did not tell you everything he knows, that means that you are not the cellular, spiritual essence of your father.

Surely, you can see that is ridiculous. If that position is ridiculous on a human level, it is even more ridiculous on a Divine level.

Click on one of these ---aservant on 1/1/17, and see all the Scripture (Authored by God) I have posted to more than adequately prove Jesus is God. God (Holy Spirit) begat Immanuel - Mt 1:18, Lk 1:35, using the process of fertilizing Mary's egg, without using a man's method of getting to her egg.
---aservant on 1/2/17


Mark states, "If the PSA was factual, the verse would read "He who knew no sin became sin for us so that the Fathers need for justice due our sin would be satisfied"

Sir, what do you think Paul meant by, "That we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

The question you must answer is what Paul stated in the beginning of this verse, "For he hath made him to be sin for us,"

The question is if there is no need for justice then why did Paul in this verse state that Jesus "he hath made him to be sin?"
---john9346 on 1/2/17


"Free will" means "unconstrained will", not "without cost will"". Rather, cost is very much a part of it. You are saying we don't, then you say we do have costs - confusing.

We have the freedom to choose - NO! We can choose to act, but not in FREEdom - there are constraints and costs to our own actions, but then we must bear the consequences of those actions.---StrongAxe on 1/1/17


I dealt with both:

Christians are yoked to Jesus = no (unconstrained)will
Christians must obey commandments = no (without cost)will
---aservant on 1/2/17


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If they wanted . . . understand them as twins . . .

"the Father is greater than I am"- Jo.14:28. ---David8318 on 12/30/16


Lying David, God told us to REASON! Even twins are not exact duplicates, one twin is always older, different weights, different heights, etc.

Lk 22:27 The one served is greater than the server. Jesus served His Father.

Jn 13:16 The sender is greater than the sent. Jesus was sent by His Father.

Jn 5:23 God commands men to honor the Son AS THEY HONOR the Father.

We MUST honor Jesus equally, because to men Jesus is equal to the Father, though He submits to His Father - Jn 8:29.
---aservant on 1/1/17


Jesus is not God.

Jesus is a man. There are a few verses in the bible that allude to him being worshiped, but looking into the semantics of words within context says otherwise. Take, for instance, John 20: 15-18 when Jesus said, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and My God and your God. Mary did not call Jesus "God," but Rabboni which means "teacher" - a hebrew term for a man that is a spiritual mentor.

Was Jesus a ventriloquist when he was baptized?

Was Jesus God if he was waiting to ascend to God?

If Jesus is God then why did He not know when He would return? Matth 24:36, Mark 13:32
---Steveng on 1/1/17


What we have to prove is that Jesus is divine, Jesus has deity . . .

Jesus is God . . . Jesus Christ is Deity. ---Mark_Eaton on 12/30/16


We have nothing to prove! Lying David has been given much Scripture that substantiates that Jesus is God.

The JW servants don't get to make Jesus less than His own Father (Author of Scripture) says that He is.

JWs are calling God a liar:

They have altered Scripture to make it fit the view that they want. For this, they will be plagued and blotted from the book of life - Rev 22:18-19.

They have lied saying that they are the 144,000, and not 144,000 Jews as Scripture says.
---aservant on 1/1/17


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