Spirit Goes To Heaven
Most Christians believe when a person dies, some part of them goes to heaven or hell while the body returns to dust. How does one explain what Job meant when he said for now I shall I sleep in the dust and Thou shall seek me diligently but I SHALL NOT BE. Job 7:21 Context shows he is speaking to God.
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---therese on 2/5/17
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Richard: "Jerry : Not knowing anything ?"
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING
Too bad you stopped reading in the account of Steven's death in Acts 7. You would have learned that Steven did not leave his body as a spook and go to heaven, but he fell ASLEEP (the unconscious state of death).
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he FELL ASLEEP.
---Jerry6593 on 2/25/17|
Ecclesiastes says our Spirit goes to GOD. But that is the Spirit of every person good or bad.
Genesis 2 when man is created. The Body is made and the Breath of life which becomes our spirit is breathed into him and we become a soul.
When we die the Spirit leaves which includes the breath of life and we die.
The Bible never says that the spirit apart from the body thinks. The Bible speaks of we have to be resurrected to go to heaven. I Corinthians 15.
Being dead is referred to as being asleep. Not alive anywhere else.
Look up Conditionalism. Some refer to it as soul sleep which is false. Since the soul or life as the word is often translated. Is who we are. Not a separate entity that lives in us.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/25/17|
Acts 7:55 - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Acts 7:56 - And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened ,and the son of man standing on the right hand of God,
Acts 7:57 - They cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears,and ran upon him with one accord.
Acts 7:58 - And cast him out of the city , and stone him, and witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, who name was saul,
Acts 7:59 - And they stoned Stephen ,Calling upon God, Saying , Lord Receive my spirit ,
---RichardC on 2/24/17|
Jerry : - If the spirit spook lives ?
John 4:24 - God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth,
Jerry : Not knowing anything ?
Isaiah 26:14 - They are dead, they shall not live, They are deceased, they shall not rise, Therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish,
Psalm 49:15 - But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: For he shall receive me. Selah
---RichardC on 2/24/17|
RichardC: "Body dies - Spirit lives"
Sorry, but it doesn't say that. If the spirit (spook) lives, how can it be unconscious (know not anything)? It is the Spirit of God that returns at death - not a spook trapped in the body.
---Jerry6593 on 2/24/17|
Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know they shall die, The dead know not any thing neither have they have no reward, for the memory of them forgotten,
[ Two groups of people here ? Living shall die - Body dies - Spirit lives- Saved - The Dead - Unsaved - No more reward, Saved get reward - Living - eternal life . }
Jerry were you getting the third heaven [ air where the birds are ? } 2 Corinthians 12:4 ------> Caught up in paradise ,
Psalm 30:3 - O Lord , thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit,
---RichardC on 2/23/17|
RichardC: "I knew were [where] this was going"
The 3 levels of heaven are: the air where the birds fly, the starry canopy with sun & moon, and the place of the throne of God. So what?
"Christ comes with his saints to judge "
Those would be "holy ones, i.e. angels.
"many bodies of the saints which were slept rose"
Note that they were not in heaven, but "asleep" in the grave.
Now what do you do with:
1Ti 6:16 [Jesus Christ] Who ONLY hath immortality
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing
---Jerry6593 on 2/21/17|
RichardC on 2/20/17 Back to Jude 1:14 - Christ comes with his saints to judge - what do you do with that ?
Easily explained when one goes to the original greek. The word is hagios and just means holy.
Other verses describing the second coming such as Matthew 25:31,Mark 8:38 has the same word but followed by the word angels, or ones, this should also be angels as some versions have.
In the KJV hagios is translated as holy 161 times, often followed by the word for angels or spirit as in Holy Spirit, ones, place or city.
When it is referring to living saints (61 times) it is clear from the context it is speaking of living saints as in Acts. What need for a resurrection if saints are already with Jesus?
---therese on 2/21/17|
I agree that the dead are not (yet) ascended into heaven. as for "Now we have the highest heaven were God is, Psalm 115:16 , There also a Third heaven , 2 Corinthians 12:2 - Different Levels ?" RichardC on 2/20/17,
Psalm 115:16 KJV
" The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."
2 Cor 12:1 "...visions and revelations of the Lord.", vs 2 "...such an one caught up to the third heaven."
I had thought before of levels, but another possibility is the new heaven (and earth) in a third age/eon, the age to come.
---chria9396 on 2/21/17|
Jerry - I knew were this was going from the beginning , this topic comes up a lot , Now we have the highest heaven were God is, Psalm 115:16 , There also a Third heaven , 2 Corinthians 12:2 - Different Levels ?
Back to Jude 1:14 - Christ comes with his saints to judge - what do you do with that ?
Matthew 27:52 - And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which were slept rose,
Matthew 27:53 - And came out of the graves after his resurrection ,and went into the holy city and appeared to many,
---RichardC on 2/20/17|
RichardC: Your use of the Scripture in Luke 23:42,43 to support immortality of the soul is contradicted by Christ's own words two days later to Mary when He said:
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.
And yes, Paradise and Heaven are in the same place.
Even King David (a man after God's own heart) has not yet ascended to heaven.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:
Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven, and Moses was resurrected as were about 25 others at the time of Christ's resurrection, but nobody else.
---Jerry6593 on 2/20/17|
Therese actually the problem, as I see it, with Luke 23:43 is to and day being read as a compound word when in fact they are separate words. The compound word 'today' is only used 3 times in scripture based on the KJV of the bible. The greek word 'eis' translated "to" could have been translated as either to, this, or that. Seeing that Jesus was specifically asked to remember the thief when He came into His kingdom, and Jesus already explained that His kingdom is not of this world [age]. John 18:36 I believe, the verse would have been more accurately translated "That day, [the day He comes into His kingdom], shalt thou be with me in paradise."
---josef on 2/20/17|
---RichardC on 2/19/17 quoted Luke 23:42-43
If Jesus soul/spirit went anywhere when He died on the cross, He did not go to where God the Father was because He says to Mary on resurrection morning, Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. John 20:17.
Also in regard to Luke 23:43, If one reads this comment of Jesus without the comma, which translators have added, the sense is different. I say to you today when we are dying on these crosses.
---therese on 2/20/17|
Luke - 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus , Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise,
---RichardC on 2/19/17|
"What are you trying to say Josef? that the saints do not continue to live after the first death? No-one does. Dead means dead, an absence of life. The fact that the dead are dead is witnessed by the fact that the dead are to be resurrected. Resurrection is a re-standing to life, a rising from the dead.
---josef on 2/19/17|
And by faith Abel still speaks even though he is dead. (Hebrews 11:4)
What are you trying to say Josef? that the saints do not continue to live after the first death?
I am unsure of your argument.
---mike4879 on 2/19/17|
The hebrew language is full of analogies and similes. It's a very poetic language. The english language, for instance, has recently grown to over a million words each having multiple definitions and many having the opposite definitions from its original definition. This increase causes many interpretations of the analogies and similes. These interpretations are based upon worldly knowledge.
Enoch walked with God. Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Abraham and Isaac did walked with God. God desires all of His children to walk with Him by doing what God has commanded. Exodus 16:4 Walking with God is when we enter into an intimate heart relationship with God through faith in His Son (Hebrews 10:22).
---Steveng on 2/19/17|
"Why does the Bible say Enoch walked with the Lord and was no more?"
Because God took him. Gen 5:24
'Why does the Bible say that Abel continues to speak?" It doesn't.
It is his blood that speaks of the violence of his death. Gen 4:10
"Why does the Bible say, "He is not the God of the dead, BUT OF THE LIVING."? Because all live unto Him. Luk 20:38
---josef on 2/18/17|
May be there are too many paradoxes in scripture to get a right understanding. TRUE! Adam did not eat from the tree of life. TRUE we return to dust. Another verse. "Who knows if the spirit of people rises upwards and the spirit of animals goes downwards to the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:21) Yet, the scriptures seem to support that God is not the God of the dead, but is God of the living.
---mike4879 on 2/18/17|
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it,
Romans 8:10 - And Christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness,
2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are confident , I say , and willing rather to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,
Jude 1:14 - And Enoch also , the seventh from Adam, prophesied of this, saying, Behold , The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
---RichardC on 2/17/17|
Then why does the Bible say that God has placed eternity in our hearts? (Ecclesiastes 3:11) Why does the Bible say Enoch walked with the Lord and was no more? Why does the Bible say that Abel continues to speak? Why does the Bible say, "He is not the God of the dead, BUT OF THE LIVING." ? EXPLAIN away THESE verses.
---mike4879 on 2/17/17|
therese: Your blog brings up one of the most misunderstood doctrines in the Bible - the state of the dead. The first lie told in the Bible was Satan contradicting God in his temptation of Eve.
Gen 3:3,4 " ... God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"
Sadly, most Christians continue to advance Satan's lie today. The Bible clearly states that man is not "currently" immortal, yet most still believe the pagan paradigm of a self-existent "soul" trapped in a mortal body instead.
---Jerry6593 on 2/17/17|
So man lies down and does not rise till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. Job 14:12.
If one couples this with what 2 Peter 3:10 says speaking of the Day of the Lord (the 2nd coming verse 4) the heavens will pass away. 1 Thess 4:13-16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 indicates the dead will rise at that time. The heavens are dissolved and the dead rise.
I believe this was what Job referred to in Job 14:12
---therese on 2/14/17|
Not everything every man says in the Bible is going to be perfectly correct.
Job's case is extra tricky, he has been seemingly forgotten by God and grievously afflicted. You could explain it a lot of ways, I won't try to do that.
Only Job knows what he meant. I think he was just wallowing in self pity, because look at what he says in chapter 19.
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"
---Pharisee on 2/11/17|
I also believe it is important to read the whole chapter 7, to understand the conclusion of Jobs comment in context of what he is going through. He is in anguish, and the Lord has not answered or addressed Job yet. Even Jobs friends make comments that make God very angry because even though they are righteous men, they misspoke. We need to be very careful what we say when we say we speak for God. What Job finally SEES at the end of his ordeal, is that he also misspoke throwing himself in the dirt for misspeaking? Job 42:3-6. ... Please read.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/17|
I think Job had enjoyed a relationship with God, then it seemed to Job that God had left him, so if Job were dead and buried, then God returned, that then, in Job's perspective, God will have difficulty finding him. On another note, the spirit of Abel continues to speak and God is the God of the living. I AM the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but the living. Jesus said Lazarus was asleep.
---mike4879 on 2/10/17|
I agree therese, according to scripture, the dead are dead, totally devoid of life. Alive only in the mind, plan, and purpose of the Father for either their eternal existence or in the case of the wicked, their eventual non-existence.
---josef on 2/9/17|
Yes God has not spoken to Job. Yet when God does speak there is nothing about this and other comments Job makes about the state of the dead. Many other verses in the bible agree with Jobs comments.
---therese on 2/8/17|
You are right that all of the ungodly will return to the dust (the ground/dust is cursed, eternal separation from God).
All of the SAVED (completely saved) are INSIDE the body that hung on the cross for all eternity and are separated from death/dust for all eternity.
This is the age of eternity (no longer the age of time). Jesus came in the "fulness of time" (the completion and end of TIME). He dame at the end of the age to put away sin,...."and in the age to come ETERNAL LIFE".
Jesus is the ETERNAL COVENANT and brought the ETERNAL SPIRIT (Hebrews 9:14).
---faithforfaith on 2/6/17|
Yes, Job is speaking to God, but God has not yet spoken to Job.
---mike4879 on 2/6/17|