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Spirit Goes To Heaven

Most Christians believe when a person dies, some part of them goes to heaven or hell while the body returns to dust. How does one explain what Job meant when he said for now I shall I sleep in the dust and Thou shall seek me diligently but I SHALL NOT BE. Job 7:21 Context shows he is speaking to God.

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 ---therese on 2/5/17
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Jerry, it doesn't matter what Saul saw...but what mattered was he did not believe as you do. Jews do not believe as you do and never have.

Only you and JW's believe as you do.....which should be a red flag.

But since you do not believe in being BORN AGAIN, or a new creature, since you are still in the flesh and under the law which applies only to,the flesh.....it is understandable you do not understand THE NEW CREATURE IS no longer in the flesh but IN THE SPIRIT, and that spirit NEVER DIES.

I will never agree with you Jerry. So scream all you want, curse, call names...I don't care.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/17


1 Cori15:17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins.18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Jesus DID rise from the dead, those asleep IN CHRIST have not perished. Those who have died and are saved are said to be asleep IN CHRIST. So Jerry, are you saying the soul ceases to exist...which is what JW's believe?

It amazes me that something so clearly stated in scripture is argued.

When you are Born Again, the Holy Spirit reaffirms this to the believer. To look in the OT for answers , won't, because no one in the OT was Born Again. But Jesus Himself did give us a picture..IN Luke, and His own words at His crucifixion.....what more could anyone want?
---kathr4453 on 3/13/17


Therese: I LOVE the way you write!



Kathr: I did not go off topic by mentioning the flat-earthers. That was a response to your contention that the majority must always be right. Please stay focused, as this topic addresses the REAL nature of the soul as revealed in the Bible. (Saul saw a demon - not Samuel)

A soul is defined in Gen 2:7 as the combination of body and breath of God. Without the body, the soul ceases to exist. You can't think without a brain.


Ecc 9:5 ... the dead know not any thing

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Eze 18:4 ... the soul that sinneth, it shall die.



---Jerry6593 on 3/13/17


Jerry,,you went off topic when you tried to compare my beliefs to pagans who believed the world was flat. Strange thing to do there. Just because pagans believe in an after life does not make it a lie. Saul was not a pagan, but believed he could get in tough with Samuel...even though God forbade the practice of sorcery. The fact that Saul wanted to talk to Samuel shows even Jews did not believe as you do.

Sorry Jerry, God did not LEAVE Jesus soul in hell, but raised Him up 3 days after Jesus was as dead as dead could be. Was Jesus a SPOOK for three days? So that also proves the soul and physical body separated. We also have a soul, as we were created in the image of God.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/17


Once we are IN CHRIST! We are IN CHRIST...sealed until the day of redemption. ---kathr4453 on 3/11/17


Yes Kathr if we are in Christ and stay in Christ we are secure in Him.

God can say He is the God of the living for to God we all are still live in His knowledge so at the last day we are given a new immortal , incorruptible bodies combined with Gods recorded knowledge of our intangible parts, our character.

To the one who dies the 2nd coming seems to follow immediately after death no matter how many centuries may have passed. What a wise wonderful loving God we have.
---therese on 3/12/17




At the second coming of Christ it is expressly written that the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with them.

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
---Steveng on 3/11/17


Kathr: I think that you're off topic. I realize that the Bible teaches a round earth - even though pagans believed it was flat. But, contrary to the pagan belief in spooks, the Bible teaches that the dead really are dead, and will live again ONLY at the resurrection when Christ returns.

1Th 4:13, 15-16 But I would not have you to be IGNORANT, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead]. ... For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord SHALL NOT prevent [PRECEDE] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

---Jerry6593 on 3/12/17


This discussion must look at a definition of soul in the bible and its uses in the bible.

Gen 2:7 does not say God gave Adam a soul, but that with the combination of Gods breath and the body Adam becomes a living soul or person. God told Adam when he died he would return to dust. Gen 3:19. No indication that when breath leaves the body at death that this soul can live on.

Many times when this word is used it is referring to feelings, the intangible part of a person. e.g Why my soul are you downcast. Ps 42:11, but never as a part of the person that can live on its own, the body being dead.
---therese on 3/12/17


Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Jerry, look up the Hebrew word here for "circle" it says sphere, MEANING ROUND, which if people believed and read the bible they would have known the world was not flat. So THAT argument bit the dust. ...I'm not sure what all this talk about SPOOKS is.....like a ghost maybe. The Bible says nothing about us being SPOOKS OR GHOSTS.

Once we are IN CHRIST! We are IN CHRIST...sealed until the day of redemption. That IS what he bible says whether you believe it, agree with it, understand it.
---kathr4453 on 3/11/17


Kathr: "The Majority believe we go home to be with the Lord until the first resurrection."

The majority once believed that the earth was flat, but they also were wrong. If indeed people could exist, think, eat, drink, feel and worship as disembodied spooks, then why (logically) did Christ say "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."? Do you really believe that Christ makes 150,000 trips to earth every day, rather than once as the Bible states?

And, if no one really dies, but lives on as spooks, then why does the Bible say the rest of the dead LIVED NOT again until the thousand years were ended?


---Jerry6593 on 3/11/17




Kathr, I believe you gave a good answer concerning Psalms 115:17.

It is my opinion that the author is speaking of physical death. When we are dead we do not praise God any longer here on earth. We praise him in his presence.
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)
---trey on 3/9/17


---how would you rationalize the following scripture with your view?

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

---Jerry6593 on 3/8/17
I see two groups here. SO the first part is saying all in Adam all are DEAD. So it depends on what you mean by dead Jerry. Physically or spiritually? One is not MADE ALIVE until they are made ALIVE IN CHRIST. Yet our physical bodies still have to die....YET WE ARE MADE ALIVE RIGHT NOW.

Those who have rejected the Gospel (spiritually .still dead) do not praise the Lord.

AND Only you and the JW agree to some extent...NOT the majority of Christianity Jerry. The Majority believe we go home to be with the Lord until the first resurrection.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/17


Kathr: I think that you assign unwarrented meaning to scripture. Heb 12:23 doesn't mention just men as spooks in heaven awaiting bodies. It is talking about converted men on earth whose names are written in the lamb's book of life listening to Paul talk about Jesus, our High Priest, in heaven.

---Jerry6593 on 3/8/17

What a creative imagination. You must not have read the whole chapter. Also not sure what Paul has to do with it. AND the verses are not about ON EARTH...but the Heavenly Jerusalem....ya know...the one UP THERE....not on earth....

I've never seen anyone take scripture and so blatantly distort in a way not even recognizable to exactly what is said. Your interpretation is not even suggested in Hebrews 12.
---kathr4453 on 3/8/17


Kathr: I think that you assign unwarrented meaning to scripture. Heb 12:23 doesn't mention just men as spooks in heaven awaiting bodies. It is talking about converted men on earth whose names are written in the lamb's book of life listening to Paul talk about Jesus, our High Priest, in heaven.

I think you will agree with me that any doctrine we hold as truth must harmonize with the entirety of Scripture, and not just a few verses. That being the case, I believe that my take agrees with the vast body of scripture more closely than yours. For example, how would you rationalize the following scripture with your view?

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.


---Jerry6593 on 3/8/17


At Christ's return the scripture clearly states:
1Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (KJV)

Concerning Lazarus:
Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. (KJV)
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. (KJV)
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. (KJV)

Notice: Christ is looking into heaven when he calls forth Lazarus.
---Trey on 3/7/17


At his second coming, Jesus returns to earth, will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

We are not "dead" as man thinks of death, but we are asleep. When Jesus returns he will call his own and the true christians will hear his voice - and awake us out of our sleep as he did with Lazarus.

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Ephesians 5:14
---Steveng on 3/6/17


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Jerry, I believe I did give you scripture


THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT. Hebrews 12.....I even BOLDED IT JERRY. I didn't make up the verse. AND if you continue reading its also where Jesus is RIGHT NOW as well PRESENT TENSE. They don't have bodies yet. They will get those at the resurrection. Luke also shows souls and spirits of those without bodies. When Jesus died, his BODY was still in the tomb and His soul went for 3 days .....WHERE?

And for Jesus to call out Lazures name...saying Lazarus come forth..Lazarus must have been conscience and aware to hear Jesus.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/17


John 11:43-44

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, ---
Jerry, shouldn't Jesus have said LAZARUS WAKE UP, OR LAZARUS AWAKE... if he were asleep.

Also Acts 2:24 you have taken totally out of context....these verses are NOT teaching the afterlife, BUT that Jeus is Lord and Christ. Whose WHOLE BODY ascended into heaven. And is sitting at the right hand of the Father.....go back and REREAD please.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/17


Kathr: I agree that we shall likely never agree, but I am disappointed that you could not provide scripture to back your claim that there are spirits of the dead awaiting bodies in heaven. Dead people do not praise God in heaven.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:

If the dead were in heaven, why would Jesus need to return for them and resurrect them?

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

---Jerry on 3/6/17


In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the place of the dead or the place of departed souls/spirits. The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to the place of the dead. The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for hell and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of Godthe part of sheol called heaven, paradise, or Abrahams bosom (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:23).
---kathr4453 on 3/6/17


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There are two resurrections.

The first is at the soon-to-come second coming of Christ when all the DEAD in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead. This is at the beginning of Christ's thousand year reign.

The second is at the end of the thousand year reign when all the other dead shall rise and be judged from the book of life - according to their works. Blessed are those that rise at the first resurrection.

As for the death of the soul it is written that we are not to be afraid of man for he can only destroy the body, but be afraid of God for he can destroy the body AND the soul.
---Steveng on 3/5/17


2 Corinthians 5:1-2

5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Jerry, we will never agree on this issue. We,Ve been over this many times. I do not believe the soul sleeps in the dirt. I believe just as scripture teaches, those who are HIS, are asleep in the Lord. Once IN CHRIST we are always IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17


Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Jerry, I believe what is written in scripture.

The bible does not teach soul sleep. Luke does not teach soul sleep. Jesus did not teach soul sleep, when He clearly said..TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. He's probably one of the spirits of just men made perfect, now just waiting for hIs glorified body at the first resurrection.

What is so horrible about being home with the Lord when our bodies die?
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17


Kathr: I still can't find any evidence for your statement "the Bible says, those in heaven now are waiting to be housed...meaning having a body". Yet you seem to propound more and more Bible-contradicting notions than I can keep up with.

For instance, you claim:

1) Paradise is hades (Gr. for the grave), whereas the Bible clearly shows paradise to be the garden of God in heaven.

2) You already have eternal life and will not have to face a future judgement. The Bible contradicts both theses.

3) You imply that God cannot make a new body in heaven.

4) You cannot lose salvation - OSAS.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



---Jerry6593 on 3/5/17


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Jerry,

Every time the scriptures speak of the world do they always mean the same world?

Every time the scriptures speak of salvation do they always mean eternal salvation?

The answer to both of these is "No".

When the scriptures speak of the death of the soul they are referring to the death of the body.

Concerning soul sleeping:
In Luke 9:31 Christ spoke with Moses and Elijah. They were very much alive and awake.
---trey on 3/5/17


Genesis 35:18 - And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, ( For she had died} that she called his name ben-oni :but his father called him Benjamin

Genesis 35:19 - And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Beth-lehem.
---RichardC on 3/4/17


Jerry, I don't believe verse 10 states what you believe. We already have eternal life, we already have a NEW BIRTH, we are already a New Creature...so I'm already fit for heaven, just waiting for my new Tent so to speak.

Jesus said the the man who died next to Him..TODAY you will be with me in paradise. Paradise then was Hades, also,Abrahams bosom where Jesus spent 3 days, before ascending into heaven, where He lead captivity captive...meaning He led the way for all those souls in Abrahams Bosom,AKA Paradise right into Heaven where they are right now, called the spirits of JUST men made perfect. Hebrews 12.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/17


Kathr: I just re-read 2Cor: 5 and while I agree that the subject of the chapter (as defined in v. 17) is the new birth experience, I still can't find any evidence for your statement "the Bible says, those in heaven now are waiting to be housed...meaning having a body". Thus, the issue of "at home in the body vs. present with the Lord" is one of our carnal vs. new birth nature - not one of the physical location of our "soul". In fact, v. 10 indicates that the determination of our fitness for heaven ("good or bad") is at the Judgement - not when we assent to Christ.



---Jerry6593 on 3/4/17


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Dear Kathyr you didn't give a passage that states what you believe.

In I Corinthians 15 the Bible says we sleep until the resurrection. The reason you could not give a verse showing what you believe is that the Bible never says that. Follow what this chapter says.

By the way Jesus called Lazarus out of the grave. Not down from heaven.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/4/17


Jerry, read 2 Corinthians 5... The whole chapter. You took a verse IN THAT CHAPTER and assumed it meant absent from the body..meaning the body of believers..WRONG. When we're Born Again Jerry, it's more than having the Spirit of God in you that returns to the father after you die, but WE ARE A NEW CREATION...something that has NEVER existed before. So when you take OT verses and apply to NT and the finished works of Christ, Including our New Birth and that we are a New Creature....no where does the NEW CREATURE become extinguished at death.

The New Creature is now IN CHRIST. Nothing IN CHRIST will ever die again. Nothing can separate me from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus...NOT EVEN DEATH so says Romans 8
---kathr4453 on 3/3/17


Kathr: "Jerry, the Bible says, those in heaven now are waiting to be housed...meaning having a body."

Chapter and verse, please. I can't seem to find that.



trey: "Some will point to verses stating that the soul dies. If we look at the meaning of these verses they are pointing to a physical death of the body"

Do you then mean that the "soul" IS the "body"? Scripture (Gen 2:7) indicates that the "soul" is the COMBINATION of the "body" and God's "breath of life". Without both components, the "soul" ceases to exist!



---Jerry6593 on 3/3/17


There is not one single verse of scripture that states that the soul sleeps.

There are multiple scriptures that speak of the soul departing.

Some will point to verses stating that the soul dies. If we look at the meaning of these verses they are pointing to a physical death of the body.

Last of all, at the time of death. God's people are separated from their body and their soul and spirit go to be with God the Father and their people.

Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years, and was gathered to his people.

His soul left the body to go be with God resulting in death and his spirit and soul were gathered to his people meaning his family in heaven.
---trey on 3/2/17


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Jerry, the Bible says, those in heaven now are waiting to be housed...meaning having a body. So when we put on immortality, how can something that doesn't exist already put on anything. We already have eternal life...and all we are waiting for is our bodies that will be fashioned like His. We don't know what we will be, but we know we will be like Him.

Eternal life and immortality are promised through the Gospel. The moment I am quickened together with Christ ..re Born Again of the Spirit.....what makes you think that new Birth dies again? Don't look in the OT for answers. Look in the NT.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/17


The Bible never says our soul is eternal. Jesus is also GOD so that places him in a different category then us poor mortal humans.

The Bible says the wages of sin is death. So those who do not follow GOD will dies the second death.

Born once die twice. Born twice die once.

We sleep until the Resurrection of the righteous. 1 Corinthians 15.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/2/17


Kathr: I respectfully disagree with your theory that since immortality and eternal life are somehow different, then people are now souls that live forever no matter what. When Jesus returns, and we "put on immortality" do you conclude that we will not live eternally as the Bible promises?



---Jerry6593 on 3/2/17


Jerry there is a difference between eternal and immortal. You use both words here as if they are the same.

Jesus immortality came after He rose from the dead. Immortal has to do with man. Mortals are men. Jesus is the MAN Christ Jesus, so says scripture, and He is also eternal. He is also the first born from the dead. So,yes, today only Jesus is immortal.,

When we are resurrected we will also be immortal but for now we are eternal. The eternal SOUL can exist without the mortal flesh attached. We see this when Jesus was 3 days in Hades.. Do not leave my soul in hell. His soul was not attached to,his mortal flesh, nor was Jesus immortal at that time, however His soul is eternal.
---kathr4453 on 3/1/17


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Eze 18:20 The SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of SIN is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Anything that can die is NOT IMMORTAL.


1Ti 6:16 [God] Who only hath immortality ...


Sorry folks, but the idea that we have an immortal spook trapped within our bodies that is released at death is from Greek paganism - not from the Bible.



---Jerry6593 on 3/1/17


Jerry : Your right ! I Should not left out Act:54:60 - Just made a mistake, - More so because it works into the whole premise at hand, The spirit of man goes on , the body sleep

Now if God is a spirit - God lives right ! - John 4:24 And God is alive right ! Christ dies on cross ( and Christ is God ) - yield up the Spirit - or Ghost as some have it - tells the thief he will be in paradise today - Luke 23:43 - The Question is Christ a sleep or living ? ,
---RichardC on 2/28/17


A metaphor Paul uses 3 times meaning "When I'm away from the local church (BODY of Christ), I walk with the Lord."


---Jerry6593 on 2/28/17


Seriously Jerry, you really believe that's what Paul meant? You think when he was at church he WASNT walking with the Lord? Why? Well, actually when one is Born again, they walk with the Lord and are present with the Lord whether they are in church or at Kroger.

Paul was talking about his physical body if you want to read the WHOLE chapter. He said he would rather be home with the Lord, but it was much more needful for him to stay here and preach. TODAY Christians when we die, are said to be ASLEEP IN THE LORD. Not in the dirt.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/17


Therese, Hebrews 12, tells us that at this very minute in Heaven right now, are the Angels, the General assembly, thenChurch of the first born, and the spirits of Just men made perfect. Their perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead. No one was in heaven before Jesus rose from the dead. The Just, OT the faithful were in a place called Abraham's bosom , as stated in Luke. It's just another name for paradise.

I believe this is factual. Parables don't use people's names. When Anrahams name is used, it is not a fairy tale.

I don't believe Jobs comment in 7:21 was a prophetic statement.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


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Hi Trey,

"the soul sleeps in the grave with the body waiting to be awakened"

Not exactly. According to many biblical texts, the soul ceases to exist at death. Since a soul is defined (Gen 2:7) as the combination of God's breath of life and the dust (body), when the two components are separated, no "soul" remains. Sleep is merely a metaphor for the unconscious state of death. We exist in death only in God's memory. A new body + breath is "manufactured" at the resurrection.


"absent from the body, present with the lord"

A metaphor Paul uses 3 times meaning "When I'm away from the local church (BODY of Christ), I walk with the Lord."


---Jerry6593 on 2/28/17


Hi Jerry, if I understand correctly, you believe that when we die the soul sleeps in the grave with the body waiting to be awakened by the Lord. (Please correct me if I am wrong.)

My belief is that when we die our soul goes to be with God.

The Apostle Paul wrote:
2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (KJV)
Paul speaking of death and that we are separated from the body and present with God.

Eccl 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (KJV)

Last of all, Rev 6:9 describes saints who are very much awake after death.
---trey on 2/27/17


kathr4453 on 2/10/17
Said Job had it wrong.

So King David had it wrong also when he wrote Ps 39:40 speaking to God, Remove Your gaze from me, before I go away and AM NO MORE. And in Ps 30:9 When I go down to the pit, will the dust praise Thee?

Luke who wrote Acts didnt know anything else either when he said David was dead and buried (acts 2:29). What a golden opportunity to tell us some part of David was in heaven with God. Its not there.

Paul also writing to the Thessalonians (1 Thess 4:13) wanting to comfort them concerning those who had died, didnt say a part of those who had died were in heaven, just comforted them with the fact that Jesus will come and raise them to life again.
---therese on 2/27/17


trey: "Let's read the bible in whole and not pick and choose verses which seem to prove erroneous beliefs."

Amen!

From Genesis to Revelation the Bible teaches that the dead are not alive, but are waiting in an unconscious state in the grave until resurrected at Jesus' second coming (or 1000 years later for the wicked).

The breath that goes back to God at death is God's breath of life, not man's breath. Note that the breath is not the "soul" as some contend, but only 1/2 of the soul (Gen 2:7).



---Jerry6593 on 2/27/17


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Therese, in the book of Job it also says:

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath,

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (KJV)

Sounds to me like when God call a man's spirit to heaven and takes away his breath the man dies.

Let's read the bible in whole and not pick and choose verses which seem to prove erroneous beliefs.
---trey on 2/26/17


Richard: "Jerry : Not knowing anything ?"

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING



Too bad you stopped reading in the account of Steven's death in Acts 7. You would have learned that Steven did not leave his body as a spook and go to heaven, but he fell ASLEEP (the unconscious state of death).

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he FELL ASLEEP.



---Jerry6593 on 2/25/17


Ecclesiastes says our Spirit goes to GOD. But that is the Spirit of every person good or bad.

Genesis 2 when man is created. The Body is made and the Breath of life which becomes our spirit is breathed into him and we become a soul.

When we die the Spirit leaves which includes the breath of life and we die.

The Bible never says that the spirit apart from the body thinks. The Bible speaks of we have to be resurrected to go to heaven. I Corinthians 15.

Being dead is referred to as being asleep. Not alive anywhere else.

Look up Conditionalism. Some refer to it as soul sleep which is false. Since the soul or life as the word is often translated. Is who we are. Not a separate entity that lives in us.
---Samuelbb7 on 2/25/17


Acts 7:55 - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56 - And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened ,and the son of man standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:57 - They cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears,and ran upon him with one accord.

Acts 7:58 - And cast him out of the city , and stone him, and witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, who name was saul,

Acts 7:59 - And they stoned Stephen ,Calling upon God, Saying , Lord Receive my spirit ,
---RichardC on 2/24/17


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Jerry : - If the spirit spook lives ?

John 4:24 - God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth,

Jerry : Not knowing anything ?

Isaiah 26:14 - They are dead, they shall not live, They are deceased, they shall not rise, Therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish,

Psalm 49:15 - But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: For he shall receive me. Selah
---RichardC on 2/24/17


RichardC: "Body dies - Spirit lives"

Sorry, but it doesn't say that. If the spirit (spook) lives, how can it be unconscious (know not anything)? It is the Spirit of God that returns at death - not a spook trapped in the body.



---Jerry6593 on 2/24/17


Jerry :

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know they shall die, The dead know not any thing neither have they have no reward, for the memory of them forgotten,

[ Two groups of people here ? Living shall die - Body dies - Spirit lives- Saved - The Dead - Unsaved - No more reward, Saved get reward - Living - eternal life . }


Jerry were you getting the third heaven [ air where the birds are ? } 2 Corinthians 12:4 ------> Caught up in paradise ,

Psalm 30:3 - O Lord , thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit,
---RichardC on 2/23/17


RichardC: "I knew were [where] this was going"

The 3 levels of heaven are: the air where the birds fly, the starry canopy with sun & moon, and the place of the throne of God. So what?


"Christ comes with his saints to judge "

Those would be "holy ones, i.e. angels.


"many bodies of the saints which were slept rose"

Note that they were not in heaven, but "asleep" in the grave.


Now what do you do with:

1Ti 6:16 [Jesus Christ] Who ONLY hath immortality

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing
---Jerry6593 on 2/21/17


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RichardC on 2/20/17 Back to Jude 1:14 - Christ comes with his saints to judge - what do you do with that ?

Easily explained when one goes to the original greek. The word is hagios and just means holy.
Other verses describing the second coming such as Matthew 25:31,Mark 8:38 has the same word but followed by the word angels, or ones, this should also be angels as some versions have.

In the KJV hagios is translated as holy 161 times, often followed by the word for angels or spirit as in Holy Spirit, ones, place or city.

When it is referring to living saints (61 times) it is clear from the context it is speaking of living saints as in Acts. What need for a resurrection if saints are already with Jesus?
---therese on 2/21/17


I agree that the dead are not (yet) ascended into heaven. as for "Now we have the highest heaven were God is, Psalm 115:16 , There also a Third heaven , 2 Corinthians 12:2 - Different Levels ?" RichardC on 2/20/17,

Psalm 115:16 KJV
" The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."

2 Cor 12:1 "...visions and revelations of the Lord.", vs 2 "...such an one caught up to the third heaven."
I had thought before of levels, but another possibility is the new heaven (and earth) in a third age/eon, the age to come.
---chria9396 on 2/21/17


Jerry - I knew were this was going from the beginning , this topic comes up a lot , Now we have the highest heaven were God is, Psalm 115:16 , There also a Third heaven , 2 Corinthians 12:2 - Different Levels ?

Back to Jude 1:14 - Christ comes with his saints to judge - what do you do with that ?

Matthew 27:52 - And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which were slept rose,

Matthew 27:53 - And came out of the graves after his resurrection ,and went into the holy city and appeared to many,
---RichardC on 2/20/17


RichardC: Your use of the Scripture in Luke 23:42,43 to support immortality of the soul is contradicted by Christ's own words two days later to Mary when He said:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

And yes, Paradise and Heaven are in the same place.

Even King David (a man after God's own heart) has not yet ascended to heaven.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:

Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven, and Moses was resurrected as were about 25 others at the time of Christ's resurrection, but nobody else.


---Jerry6593 on 2/20/17


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Therese actually the problem, as I see it, with Luke 23:43 is to and day being read as a compound word when in fact they are separate words. The compound word 'today' is only used 3 times in scripture based on the KJV of the bible. The greek word 'eis' translated "to" could have been translated as either to, this, or that. Seeing that Jesus was specifically asked to remember the thief when He came into His kingdom, and Jesus already explained that His kingdom is not of this world [age]. John 18:36 I believe, the verse would have been more accurately translated "That day, [the day He comes into His kingdom], shalt thou be with me in paradise."
---josef on 2/20/17


---RichardC on 2/19/17 quoted Luke 23:42-43
If Jesus soul/spirit went anywhere when He died on the cross, He did not go to where God the Father was because He says to Mary on resurrection morning, Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. John 20:17.

Also in regard to Luke 23:43, If one reads this comment of Jesus without the comma, which translators have added, the sense is different. I say to you today when we are dying on these crosses.
---therese on 2/20/17


Luke - 23:42 - And he said unto Jesus , Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise,
---RichardC on 2/19/17


"What are you trying to say Josef? that the saints do not continue to live after the first death? No-one does. Dead means dead, an absence of life. The fact that the dead are dead is witnessed by the fact that the dead are to be resurrected. Resurrection is a re-standing to life, a rising from the dead.
---josef on 2/19/17


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And by faith Abel still speaks even though he is dead. (Hebrews 11:4)

What are you trying to say Josef? that the saints do not continue to live after the first death?

I am unsure of your argument.
---mike4879 on 2/19/17


The hebrew language is full of analogies and similes. It's a very poetic language. The english language, for instance, has recently grown to over a million words each having multiple definitions and many having the opposite definitions from its original definition. This increase causes many interpretations of the analogies and similes. These interpretations are based upon worldly knowledge.

Enoch walked with God. Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Abraham and Isaac did walked with God. God desires all of His children to walk with Him by doing what God has commanded. Exodus 16:4 Walking with God is when we enter into an intimate heart relationship with God through faith in His Son (Hebrews 10:22).
---Steveng on 2/19/17


"Why does the Bible say Enoch walked with the Lord and was no more?"
Because God took him. Gen 5:24
'Why does the Bible say that Abel continues to speak?" It doesn't.
It is his blood that speaks of the violence of his death. Gen 4:10
"Why does the Bible say, "He is not the God of the dead, BUT OF THE LIVING."? Because all live unto Him. Luk 20:38
---josef on 2/18/17


May be there are too many paradoxes in scripture to get a right understanding. TRUE! Adam did not eat from the tree of life. TRUE we return to dust. Another verse. "Who knows if the spirit of people rises upwards and the spirit of animals goes downwards to the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:21) Yet, the scriptures seem to support that God is not the God of the dead, but is God of the living.
---mike4879 on 2/18/17


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Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it,

Romans 8:10 - And Christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness,

2 Corinthians 5:8 - We are confident , I say , and willing rather to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,

Jude 1:14 - And Enoch also , the seventh from Adam, prophesied of this, saying, Behold , The Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
---RichardC on 2/17/17


Then why does the Bible say that God has placed eternity in our hearts? (Ecclesiastes 3:11) Why does the Bible say Enoch walked with the Lord and was no more? Why does the Bible say that Abel continues to speak? Why does the Bible say, "He is not the God of the dead, BUT OF THE LIVING." ? EXPLAIN away THESE verses.
---mike4879 on 2/17/17


therese: Your blog brings up one of the most misunderstood doctrines in the Bible - the state of the dead. The first lie told in the Bible was Satan contradicting God in his temptation of Eve.

Gen 3:3,4 " ... God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"

Sadly, most Christians continue to advance Satan's lie today. The Bible clearly states that man is not "currently" immortal, yet most still believe the pagan paradigm of a self-existent "soul" trapped in a mortal body instead.



---Jerry6593 on 2/17/17


So man lies down and does not rise till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. Job 14:12.

If one couples this with what 2 Peter 3:10 says speaking of the Day of the Lord (the 2nd coming verse 4) the heavens will pass away. 1 Thess 4:13-16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 indicates the dead will rise at that time. The heavens are dissolved and the dead rise.

I believe this was what Job referred to in Job 14:12
---therese on 2/14/17


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Not everything every man says in the Bible is going to be perfectly correct.

Job's case is extra tricky, he has been seemingly forgotten by God and grievously afflicted. You could explain it a lot of ways, I won't try to do that.

Only Job knows what he meant. I think he was just wallowing in self pity, because look at what he says in chapter 19.

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"

Job 19:25-26
---Pharisee on 2/11/17


I also believe it is important to read the whole chapter 7, to understand the conclusion of Jobs comment in context of what he is going through. He is in anguish, and the Lord has not answered or addressed Job yet. Even Jobs friends make comments that make God very angry because even though they are righteous men, they misspoke. We need to be very careful what we say when we say we speak for God. What Job finally SEES at the end of his ordeal, is that he also misspoke throwing himself in the dirt for misspeaking? Job 42:3-6. ... Please read.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/17


I think Job had enjoyed a relationship with God, then it seemed to Job that God had left him, so if Job were dead and buried, then God returned, that then, in Job's perspective, God will have difficulty finding him. On another note, the spirit of Abel continues to speak and God is the God of the living. I AM the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but the living. Jesus said Lazarus was asleep.
---mike4879 on 2/10/17


I agree therese, according to scripture, the dead are dead, totally devoid of life. Alive only in the mind, plan, and purpose of the Father for either their eternal existence or in the case of the wicked, their eventual non-existence.
---josef on 2/9/17


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Yes God has not spoken to Job. Yet when God does speak there is nothing about this and other comments Job makes about the state of the dead. Many other verses in the bible agree with Jobs comments.
---therese on 2/8/17


You are right that all of the ungodly will return to the dust (the ground/dust is cursed, eternal separation from God).

All of the SAVED (completely saved) are INSIDE the body that hung on the cross for all eternity and are separated from death/dust for all eternity.

This is the age of eternity (no longer the age of time). Jesus came in the "fulness of time" (the completion and end of TIME). He dame at the end of the age to put away sin,...."and in the age to come ETERNAL LIFE".

Jesus is the ETERNAL COVENANT and brought the ETERNAL SPIRIT (Hebrews 9:14).
---faithforfaith on 2/6/17


Yes, Job is speaking to God, but God has not yet spoken to Job.
---mike4879 on 2/6/17


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