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Hypostatic Union

Hypostatic union

OR

Nestorian doctrine


I've looked into both and both have their strengths and failures, which do you believe and why?

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I've always been disturbed by the lack (as I see it) of plausible explanation given by those who tout the hypostatic union as fact and the alacrity in which they dispensed judgement on anything else.
In part because I saw this as a debatable matter, one in which neither side could prove it's case beyond a doubt.
---Pharisee on 2/14/17

Sir, if you read the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon as well as the writing of those who oppose the Hypostatic Union.whocause

Sir, you will see very clearly who were dealing with "Scripture." and who were not.


---john9346 on 5/10/17


And this problem stems from the fact that scripture has been abandoned in favor of philosophy
---James_L on 5/9/17 The

dilemma here is the councils were, "Totally Depended." on "Scripture to define the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union.


---john9346 on 5/9/17


/That's like saying a Korean man and Emglish woman will have a child who is 100% Korean and 100% English\-James_L on 5/9/17
Yet, if the child was born in America, he or she would be 50% Korean, 50% English, and 100% American.
The Word of God taking on flesh does not diminish His Godhead, nor detract from Him being a full human to fulfill and satisfy the requirements of the Law.
---micha9344 on 5/9/17


That's like saying a Korean man and English woman will have a child who is 100% Korean and 100% English...the problem comes from not distinguishing between Jesus' Spirit and His body.
---James_L on 5/9/17

Your example is flawed. All three people are still of human being.

I think I understand what you are saying. Do you believe the Spirit of Jesus as having the God-being and the body of Jesus as having the human being?

I see this slightly different. I use Phil. 2:5-8 as my foundation. Jesus was already in the being of God, and during the Incarnation, the human being as added to Jesus, making Him both 100% human and 100% God.

I think for a blending to happen, you cease being the first to become the second.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/9/17


james_l states, "When I say Jesus is not 100% God, nor 100% human, I'm approaching it from tbe idea of this so-called "blending" of two so-called natures, without static."

Sir, Scripture doesn't blend the 2-natures (Divinity) and (Humanity) Scripture harmonizes them... there is a difference.


The brothers at the council of Chalcedon and Ephesus read the "Totality." of Scripture to have written what they wrote.

Sir, have you ever read the councilspertaain to the discussion??
---john9346 on 5/9/17




Mark_Eaton,
When I say Jesus is not 100% God, nor 100% human, I'm approaching it from tbe idea of this so-called "blending" of two so-called natures, without static.

That's like saying a Korean man and Emglish woman will have a child who is 100% Korean and 100% English

The problem comes from not distinguishing between Jesus' Spirit and His body.

And this problem stems from the fact that scripture has been abandoned in favor of philosophy
---James_L on 5/9/17


I noted already that I replied to Micha's assertion that I was treading close to Gnosticism...
---James on 5/5/17

I think your statement "Jesus is not 100% God, nor is He 100% man" is very disturbing to most here.

On the surface, it sounds heretical or anti-Christ.

Your statement (if I pick at it logically), says Jesus is not God and not man. Logic says, if Jesus is not 100% God, then Jesus is not really God at all. Something less than God, perhaps God-like or a demi-God.

The same logic applies to being a man.

But perhaps, you mean something different.

I think you need to explain your statement if you agree with John 1, Hebrews 2, and Romans 8.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/8/17


Hebrews 2:14-18 attest fully of what John the apostle wrote in Jn 1:14

hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
---john9346 on 5/6/17


"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Rom 8:3
Note the Holy Spirit's Words directing Paul to use, "in the likeness of sinful flesh,"

This again is in full agreement with Jn 1:14, Heb 2:14-17 all declaring that the Lord Jesus Christ was "Fully Human." as well as "Fully God."
---john9346 on 5/6/17


James_l said, "Unfortunately, John's run-on nonsense seems to all get posted, but meaningful input doesn't
Ugh."

James, just remember the following and please never forget it sir:

"Those who do not have good arguments or verses for their views. Often resort to juvenile remarks, snide comments and personal attacks."

---john9346 on 5/5/17




Mark_eaton:

Yes sir,it is the Nicene Creed and you know it also is one of my Personal Favorites...

I love to recite it after. taking the Lord's Supper...

The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is a doctrine worth defending because it draws us near to worship our Lord God and Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ who is 100% God and 100% man...

All Praise be to Christ... our Eternal King...
---john9346 on 5/5/17


Mark Eaton,
I didn't miss anything in John 1:14, Romans 8:3 or Hebrews 2:14-17

I noted already that I replied to Micha's assertion that I was treading close to Gnosticism. It was there....

Unfortunately, John's run-on nonsense seems to all get posted, but meaningful input doesn't

Ugh
---James on 5/5/17


We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father...
---john9346 on 5/4/17

Thank you for posting a portion of this creed. I believe it is the Nicene Creed, my personal favorite.

The statements made in the creed defend the theory of Hypostatic union, which was important and necessary to codify defend.

Jesus was conceived of two different beings, a human being - Mary, and a God-being - the Holy Spirit. This gave Jesus the ability to be both fully human, with all the frailties of flesh and sin, and the ability to be fully God, to give life, light, mercy, and truth.

How it was held together in a human body is a mystery of God.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/5/17


james_l said, "If you're going to ask questions, can you ask something I haven't answered already?"

Sir, respectfully, you didn't answer the question. Mark came along and cited exactly what you should have stated had you really studied the words you are claiming that they mean...

Otherwise, you are just rehearsing what someone told you or you read it some where...
---john9346 on 5/4/17


Nicole states, "You can't define Jesus' Divinity if you can't say the simple phrase that Mary is the mother of God."

Ma'am, again, this wasn't the point of either Ephesus and Chalcedon...

Tell me, can you explain why these councils met in the first place??
---john9346 on 5/4/17


Mark states, "But you and John are missing something in the phrase of Jn. 1:14 "became flesh"."

Sir, there is nothing to be miss here when John The apostle used, "Sarx." he was "Exhausting." this word to its entirety.

This is what James if he had really studied this word would have cited in responding to everyone here...
---john9346 on 5/4/17


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sarx v Noun Feminine

Definition
1. flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2. the body a. the body of a man
b. used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 1. born of natural generation

c. the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" 1. without any suggestion of depravity
2. the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
3. the physical nature of man as subject to suffering

4. the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God


---john9346 on 5/4/17


Nicole,
Mary is not the mother of the Word of God, she is the mother of his physical body
---James_L on 5/4/17


John Sir, I gave you the dates of both Chalcedon in 451 that expanded on the documents of Ephesus 20 years earlier.

Please read the the documents of Ephesus FIRST to help explain the Council of Chalcedon

You can't learn about division if you are not taught about addition.

You can't define Jesus' Divinity if you can't say the simple phrase that Mary is the mother of God.

Giving birth to a substance doesn't change your own substance.

Obama's mother didn't become Black just because she gave birth to a Black baby. She remained White.

But she can be called the Mother of the Black baby.
---Nicole_Lacey on 5/4/17


John9346,
If you're going to ask questions, can you ask something I haven't answered already?
---James_L on 5/4/17


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the very Word of God, by which the world was created, is inside that once-frail body of flesh
---James_L on 5/3/17

I agree.

But you and John are missing something in the phrase of Jn. 1:14 "became flesh".

In Greek, the word "flesh" is sarx, while the word "human" is anthropos.

St. John could have said that the Word became human but he did not. Saying the Word became "flesh" indicates a different meaning.

In Scripture, flesh is characterized as weakness, even sinfulness.

I think St. John is saying that Jesus became what we are, including all the weakness and sinfulness.

St. Paul takes it even farther and says that Jesus became sin.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/4/17


The Chalcedonian Creed

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess
one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood, truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body, consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood, in all things like unto us, without sin,
---john9346 on 5/4/17


begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood, one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably,
---john9346 on 5/4/17


the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Cre
---john9346 on 5/4/17


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We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures,
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
---john9346 on 5/4/17


James_l states, "He "dwelt among us" is literally "tented among us"."

Sir, respectfully, do you understand the meaning of the word "Dwelt." that John wrotes in vs 14????

Sir, also, did you continue reading what the Holy Spirit had John to write, "(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

If the Lord Jesus wasn't human, then no one could have as John stated, "we beheld his glory,"
---john9346 on 5/3/17


James_L:

The Lord Jesus during his earthly ministry got tired, got hungry, needed sleep, felt Physical Pain, and Emotional Grief... and he died...

James, God doesn't get tired, hungry, needing sleep, experiencing Physical Pain, and Emotional Grief and dying... this is the Lord Jesus's Humanity

Yet, we see the Lord Jesus who is God walking on water, commanding nature, raising the dead, forgiving sins, and resurrecting himself from the dead...
---john9346 on 5/3/17


I wrote a reply to Micha9344, but it's not here....
---James_L on 5/3/17


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James_l states, "Revelation 19:13 might help you."

Sir, first, the Holy Spirit had John the apostle to write to tell us who he was talking about in Jn 1:

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John the apostle also wrote Rev 19:13 and there again he is speaking of the Lord Jesus...
---john9346 on 5/3/17


John9346,
You seem to be reading into my posts what I haven't said.

I mentioned John 1:1 already. The Word of God - who is that? Revelation 19:13 might help you.

John 1:14 "became flesh" does not mean "became" human in any sense other than what John wrote next. He "dwelt among us" is literally "tented among us". As Romans 8:3 says, He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh

In other words, the very Word of God, by which the world was created, is inside that once-frail body of flesh
---James_L on 5/3/17


Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee, take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
-The Word of God had a will contrary to the Father?
-It would seem this only to be possible with a human will perfectly woven with a divine, for the Word of God is not contrary to the Father.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
JamesL seems to be getting close to gnostic doctrines.
---micha9344 on 5/2/17


James_l states, "None of those say anything about Jesus having a human spirit or divine body. And none of them present a 200% double guy."

The Holy Spirit instructed John the apostle to write in Jn 1:14, "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

James, Note John's Words, "Became flesh." meaning he became human.

The Lord Jesus during his earthly ministry got tired, got hungry, needed sleep, felt Physical Pain, and Emotional Grief...
---john9346 on 5/2/17


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James_L:

Sir, here is what the Holy Spirit instructed John to writeabout the Lord Jesus:

Jn 1:1-3:



1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

James, note, John's Words, "the Word was God."

Do you know who John is talking about????
---john9346 on 5/2/17


James,

Sir, Just had a question for you I thought you were Southern Baptist?
---john9346 on 5/2/17


John9346,
uh....yeah, I've read all those. You even quoted my reference to John 1:14 in the same post where you asked if I read it...lol

None of those say anything about Jesus having a human spirit or divine body. And none of them present a 200% double guy.

His inner being is the Word of God, and his "tent" is human flesh and blood
---James_L on 5/2/17


"Hypostatic Union does not do justice to the scriptures, nor Christ"

Sir, have you not read Jn 8:24??

"Jesus is not 100% God, nor is He 100% man."

Sir have you not read Jn 17:5, Phil 2:6-11, and Col 1:15-19???
---john9346 on 5/1/17


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james_l states, "God is spirit, not flesh. Jesus said as much. Jesus absolutely does not have a human spirit. He is the very Word of God (John 1:1, 14)"

Sir, have you not read Col 2:9? and Jn 1:14??

james_l states, "His body alone is human - not divine."

Sir, have you not read Col 2:9 and Jn 1:14??
---john9346 on 5/1/17


Hypostatic Union does not do justice to the scriptures, nor Christ

Jesus is not 100% God, nor is He 100% man.

God is spirit, not flesh. Jesus said as much. Jesus absolutely does not have a human spirit. He is the very Word of God (John 1:1, 14)

His body alone is human - not divine. He was made like us (Heb 4:14-17)
---James_L on 5/1/17


Nicole,

Ma'am,

Please read the documents of Chalcedon and after you read them then I believe you and I maybe could dialog on "Substance."

If one takes time to read the entire documents, they speak for themselves as to there Original Meaning, content, and purpose...

The councils no where in their writing meant Mary to be there Subject and Object...
Thank You,
---john9346 on 4/30/17


//No Ma'am, the mother of God was given to proclaim the uniqueness of the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ not to protect it...//

Yes SIR! Dogmatically defined in 431 at the Council of Ephesus.

//The council again was clear the title had nothing to do with Mary, but the Lord JesusAlone..//

Amen! Because Jesus is God and Mary is NOT GOD. Thus Mary is the mother of God.

Your mother is the mother of a man. Does not make her a man? No. Only you are a man and she is a woman.

People can also say your mother is the mother of John.

But she is still the mother of a man. It states your nature not her nature.

//Council of Chalcedon--john9346

That Council took place in 451 20 year after Ephesus.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/30/17


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Nicole said, "BTW, did you know that's WHY Mary has the title: Mother of God?" "To protect Jesus' Divinity."

NoMa'am, the mother of God was given to proclaim the uniqueness of the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ not to protect it...

The council again was clear the title had nothing to do with Mary, but the Lord JesusAlone...

See, Council of Chalcedon full cause for meeting...
---john9346 on 4/29/17


//He is fully God and fully man. He has two natures: God and man...He is 100% God and 100% man. He never lost His divinity.---john9346 on 4/14/17

EXCELLENT!!!!

BTW, did you know that's WHY Mary has the title: Mother of God?

To protect Jesus' Divinity.

Not to make Mary divine as so many mistakenly believe Catholics claim.

If you can't Mary the mother of God, you DON'T believe Jesus is God.
---Nicole_Lacey on 4/28/17


The council of Chalcedon were very specific on using the word, "Nature." as so one could understand.
---john9346 on 4/29/17


The word nature is simply used to identify Distinct Beahavior and functions.
---john9346 on 4/27/17

I think this definition does not go far enough.

To have the behavior and function of God would enable one to be considered to be "godlike" without being truly God. Our Watch Tower friends consider Jesus to be "godlike" yet do not consider Jesus to be fully God.

I rather like the words "essence" and "being" with "being" my most favorite way of describing the relationship of Jesus to the Father.

Just as you and I are of the same being, that is, human being, Jesus and the Father are of the same being, God.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/17


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james said, "The biggest problem is with the mystical jargon."

James, what's mystical about the word "Nature."
---john9346 on 4/28/17


James,

The word nature is simply used to identify Distinct Beahavior and functions.

Every LivingCreature has nature its how we know what something is or not.

The Lord Jesus had 2 natures 1 human and 1 Divine meaning of God...
---john9346 on 4/27/17


The biggest problem is with the mystical jargon.

Two natures - human and divine ?? What is a "nature" and how does someone classify it or them as human and/or divine?

People also use phrases lime "sin nature" and "righteous nature"

So...what is a nature?
---James_L on 4/26/17


The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is the teaching that the union of the two natures (Divine and human) in the person of Jesus. He is fully God and fully man. He has two natures: God and man. He is not half God and half man. He is 100% God and 100% man. He never lost His divinity. He continued to exist as God when He became a man and added human nature to Himself meaning there is a "union in one person of a full human nature and a full divine nature."
---john9346 on 4/14/17


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\\Well I recently decided not to make a determination on this issue, because I nor anyone else needs to know the end of the matter for certain to attain eternal life.
---Pharisee on 2/17/17 \\

Yes, you do.

The whole purpose of these creedal statemenets and phrases such as "Hypostatic Union" is to make surre you meet the REAL Jesus and not a counterfeit christ. (How's that for bumper sticker theology?)

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 4/2/17


Well I recently decided not to make a determination on this issue, because I nor anyone else needs to know the end of the matter for certain to attain eternal life.
---Pharisee on 2/17/17

But the Lord Jesus Christ states differently, "24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

If one has a wrong Jesus a Wrong Jesus can not save a sinner from his or her sins...







---john9346 on 3/31/17


because I nor anyone else needs to know the end of the matter for certain to attain eternal life
---Pharisee on 2/17/17

I would guess that 95% of the subjects discussed in these blogs do not impact our having eternal life or not.

But, as I have reminded others in these blogs, to know the Father (and Jesus) is eternal life (John 17:3).

My passion is to introduce people to the real and true Heavenly Father, not the distant, angry, Omni-being, we have been told about in many churches.

If to know our Father in heaven is eternal life, what else could be more important?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/19/17


Well I recently decided not to make a determination on this issue, because I nor anyone else needs to know the end of the matter for certain to attain eternal life.

If people choose to believe in a spirit union pre-cross I like to simply provide a challenge to whatever they present so that they think it through. If you'd of come in favor of the other opinion I'd of done my best to do the same.

In either case the true challenge to both sides is to better know the life of Jesus and that's never a bad thing.
---Pharisee on 2/17/17


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Why is it a stretch to think that...Jesus...was in essence possessed?
---Pharisee on 2/16/17

I see no evidence for Jesus being possessed or controlled.

Rather, I see evidence for inhabitation without control, as in being baptized/sealed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the Anointed One, meaning anointed in the Spirit. We rarely discuss this. I also see this as a permanent anointing.

We are cautioned by Scripture against being drunk. I believe this is because we are controlled by the drink when we are drunk.

God does not want us to be controlled. God wants us to freely choose God's ways over our ways.

With this in mind, I do not think Jesus was controlled by anything else.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/17/17


For the sake of argument Mark, I could be possessed by the devil himself and the devil while yet inside me speaking through my vocal chords could rightly say he was the devil and be stating fact when in fact I myself (at least when I last checked) was not Satan.

Why is it a stretch to think that perhaps the man Jesus, the lamb of God, who also being the son of God having no earthly Father was in essence possessed (albeit by agreement) by the second person of the trinity???

After all how does God become "sin for us" (2Cor 5:21) or become a man (John 1:14) when he states plainly in Malachi 3:6 that he doesn't change?
---Pharisee on 2/16/17


Do you mean humanly pre-existent?
---Pharisee on 2/15/17

No.

My belief (according to John 1) is that Jesus pre-existed as the Word and that Jesus continues to exist as the Word, even though He became a fully human being.

If we apply Nestorian theology and separate the Word from Jesus in the Incarnation, it seemingly makes the "I AM" statements made by Jesus in John to be false. How could Jesus make these statements when He originated at birth?

Jesus plainly tells us that He came to this world from the Father, and will leave this world to return to the Father (John 16:28).

No person who is only human could do that.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/16/17


"causes Jesus to not continue to be pre-existent"

Do you mean humanly pre-existent? I had never considered that he was, and if this is what you believe I'd love to see you build a case for it.
---Pharisee on 2/15/17


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who tout the hypostatic union as fact and the alacrity in which they dispensed judgement on anything else
---Pharisee on 2/14/17

Funny, I have been accused of doing the same thing with the doctrine of the Trinity.

If I understand the Nestorian teachings, the main reason for this teaching is the conflict with one member of divinity dying. And as Cluny inferred, Nestorius had trouble seeing Mary as the mother of the second person in the Trinity.

It seems to me, to separate the humanity of Jesus from His deity, causes Jesus to not continue to be pre-existent, to be split, to be incomplete. Jesus is pre-existent from John 1, and if Jesus is God, He must be complete, lacking nothing.
---Mark_Eaton on 2/15/17


That's an amazing concept Mark, (that Jesus could sort of switch off his diety for his humanity) it certainly lends explaination to a lot of his sayings that were uniquely human. ("never the less not my will but thine," and "my God why have you forsaken me?" Or, "no man knows the day and the hour")

I've always been disturbed by the lack (as I see it) of plausible explanation given by those who tout the hypostatic union as fact and the alacrity in which they dispensed judgement on anything else. In part because I saw this as a debatable matter, one in which neither side could prove it's case beyond a doubt. For I had throught the matter through long before learning there was a doctrine for it.
---Pharisee on 2/14/17


My personal belief is in Hypostatic union, as I am a firm believer in the understanding of Athansius.

Jesus as I accept, was fully man and fully God, but the question is, was this true at the same time?

I choose to see Jesus having one mind but choosing to not use His deity except when told by the Father to do so. He is fully human by choice and fully God by pre-existence.

Our Watch Tower friends use Nestorian teaching against us Trinitarians by asking "how can God, the Son, die on the cross"?

To that we say, if Jesus is not fully God, how could he live a sinless life?
---Mark_Eaton on 2/14/17


Actually, NOBODY, except for a few Protestants are classical Nestorians as defined and condemned by Ephesus.

Some years ago, Pope John Paul II and the Nestorian patriarch signed a document of common Christology, where they agreed that "Theotokos" and "Mother of Christ our God" ssaid the same things.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 2/14/17


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