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Explain Acts 19:11-12

Please explain: Acts 19:11-12 (KJV)
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

3rd CLASS RELICS touching Paul not Jesus

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 ---Nicole_Lacey on 2/25/17
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Hi, Nicole (c:

It could help to show that healing is by faith and does not depend on the ministering human actually being there.

Also, God's word, now long after its writers have been on this earth, can still do all which God Himself means by His word > Isaiah 55:11.

And Jesus says, "freely give," in Matthew 10:8. Love is not for sale.
---Bill on 3/6/17


Strongaxe, I don't want to argue about this. Most here are discussing DOCTRINE, and not words on a page....well, yes, some ONLY see the words on a page....but I see more than words on a page. SO with my posts, I am discussing DOCTRINE, spiritual issues...and not just words on a page. With that please be considerate and not assume I am discussing words on a page.

Thank you.
---kathr4453 on 3/6/17


kathr4453:

I am not talking about DOCTRINAL INTERPRATION of scriptures, but ACTUAL WORDS on the page. One needs discernment to determine what a scripture MEANS, but not to see if a word is actually PHYSICALLY present in a verse or not. Doctrine is subjective opinion. Presence or absence of specific words is objective reality that EVERYONE who sees the same scripture MUST come to the same conclusion about.

Nobody knows what the Mark IS, but Revelation says it has several specific properties. For one, nobody can buy or sell without it. Until there is one universal marketplace, this cannot happen, because even if the Mark were in effect in one place, people could buy and sell without it in another, contradicting scripture.
---StrongAxe on 3/5/17


Again Strongaxe, you need discernment. We have many discussions on line where scripture IS used, but no agreement can be resolved...RE soul sleep, OSAS, the Sabbath keeping, still being under the curse of the Law.. So when someone jumps in, surely they too,are going to give THEIR OWN point of view and not be objective.

If it were just that simple, why then are there so many who see the same verse and don't even agree to its meaning...take John 6...

So again, just jumping in for the sake of jumping in,...there is no such thing. One jumps in to stress their own point of view.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17


Strongaxe, OK, Let's go back to my original statement. I said all these artifacts used to channel the spirits of the dead, praying to the dead, saying miracles come from Jesus foreskin, is greasing folks for the mark of the beast. It's witchcraft. Just as the anti-Christ will use to deceive people. 1 and 2 Thesselonians.

Then you pop in with how that can't be so because the mark of the beast is..1-2-3-4, as if YOU know EXACTLY what it is or isn't. NO ONE DOES. So your black and white doesn't work here.

I will say it again, .....the anti-Christ is coming with many "FALSE" SIGNS AND WONDERS. And many will be deceived by these......if they don't have discernment THROUGH SCRIPTURE.
---kathr4453 on 3/5/17




kathr4453:

I only mentioned the "Satan in Genesis" thing as a random factual point - I was NOT trying to start a whole debate on who it was who tempted Adam. That is totally besides the point.

If someone makes a theological point SPECIFICALLY by claiming that some scripture says something very specific, and it does not, in fact, say that at all, then the very foundations of that theological point are shaky, and it is not only a right, but a duty to point that out. If that theological point has OTHER foundations (e.g. your comment from Revelation), then those should be used, rather than ones that don't actually exist.
---StrongAxe on 3/5/17


The problem with that Strongaxe, is when someone else IS trying to make a theological point, to interrupt with a pointless comment, disrupts the conversation and often times completely change the subject, taking it off track down a rabbit hole. Scripture teaches scripture. And as example, Rev does validate Genesis. In reality, the discussion was about Satan, .... And we also know when Scripture speaks of Lucifer...THAT is Satan too, also known as the serpent. So to interrupt and say...OH Genesis doesn't use the word Lucifer or Satan....WHO CARES? Because everyone should know it's all speaking of the one and only Satan.

He also,was a LIAR from the beginning, a murderer from the beginning....
---kathr4453 on 3/4/17


kathr4453:

You need to read what I ACTUALLY wrote, rather than reading between the line. I said that nowherere in GENESIS does it say that Satan tempted Adam, and that's true. Revelation may say Satan is the ancient serpent, but GENESIS doesn't say that. I didn't say the BIBLE doesn't say so. I said GENESIS doesn't say so.

Again, I'm talking about what is black and white physically ON THE PAGE, not theological interpretations based on other sources (e.g. Revelation).

Also, I wasn't trying to make a theological point here. I was picking a random example case where people think the Bible says something specifically in a specific place, when it doesn't.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/17


In Genesis, the snake is introduced as more cunning than any of the creatures of the field that the LORD God had made (Genesis 3:1). He's a creature, but a smart one. In the book of Revelation, Satan is called the ancient serpent (Revelation 12:9, 20:2), which refers to the snake in Genesis.

Strongaxe, not only Do we need the discernment Of The Holy Spirit, but we need to know all scripture. Also,Strongaxe, scripture has already stated the natural man or natural mind CANNOT understand the things of the Spirit. So I totally disagree that Scripture is black and white that anyone can understand. The Gospel is understood by the natural man, however the deeper things are not.
---kathr4453 on 3/4/17


I think we are talking about we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to discern what the Scriptures mean.

People often take the words of scripture and twist their meaning to prove what they want to believe. Not what the Bible says.

To find truth Scripture must be compared to scripture on the topic being studied.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 3/4/17




kathr4453:

You wrote: And Strongaxe yes, one needs the Holy Spirit within to know what scripture teaches.

I didn't dispute that. I said you don't need any discernment to know what scripture SAYS - i.e. what actual words are on the paper. Even a dumb computer is able to determine that. (For example, if someone says "Satan tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden", I can honestly say "The Bible doesn't say that", because if you read every single verse in Genesis, NONE of them contain the word "Satan".)
---StrongAxe on 3/3/17


It's all wrong...and nothing is WORSE BECAUSE it has a larger audience.

And Strongaxe yes, one needs the Holy Spirit within to know what scripture teaches. You also need to have TEETH to eat the meat...meaning th deeper things of scripture.

We see numerous times here folks applying scripture to things that don't apply. Just making a comparison, without regard to whether it is NT, OT already fulfilled in Christ makes all the difference in the world. We see this even debating the Keeping of the Sabbath.
---kathr4453 on 3/3/17


kathr4453:

One needs discernment to determine what scripture MEANS. One doesn't need discernment to determine what scripture SAYS. It's there in black and white on a page (or it isn't). Discernment only comes in if you're getting into details of textual criticism (e.g. Is this translation accurate? Is this manuscript reliable? etc.)

It isn't only RCC. Look at how many protestant TV evangelists sell "anointed" trinkets with shards from the True Cross, or dirt from Gethsemane, or water from the Dead Sea, or prayer cloths, or other snake oil. They're worse because they have a much larger audience.
---StrongAxe on 3/2/17


I am not "defending" RCC and its practices. All I do is, when somebody says, "The Bible says XYZ", and it doesn't, I say, "No, it doesn't" - or, when someone says, "The Bible nowhere says XYZ", and it does, I cite chapter and verse, and say "Yes, it does, right here...".
---StrongAxe on 3/1/17

And the danger of that Strongaxe is one also needs discernment with scripture. And without that even if a verse looks like this or that, that may not be exactly what God is saying.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/17


Yes Strongaxe, just as the RCC accepts these things NOT OF GOD.

The beast will come with all kinds of FALSE SIGNS AND WONDERS, meaning most likely magic of some form will be used to persuade and convince. I see all this with the RCC a perfect continual brainwashing just for that very time.

God does not CHANNEL anyone's spirit or magic THROUGH Jesus Foreskin, ANNA skull, visions of Mary floating around the universe, praying to the dead...Thomas's finger that touched Jesus wound. But I can see with all our tv programming re: witchcraft, zombies, vampires, the RCC's fascination as well with the likes, ....will be easily swallowed by so many.
---kathr4453 on 3/2/17


kathr4453:

Whatever the Mark of the Beast will be, it will have several very specific properties:
- it will be something that each person will bear individually (e.g. in the head or in the hand)
- it will be something each person must CHOOSE to accept
- it will be used GLOBALLY for commerce
Regardless of what it is, until we have a single global commerce system and a single currency, this cannot happen.

I am not "defending" RCC and its practices. All I do is, when somebody says, "The Bible says XYZ", and it doesn't, I say, "No, it doesn't" - or, when someone says, "The Bible nowhere says XYZ", and it does, I cite chapter and verse, and say "Yes, it does, right here...".
---StrongAxe on 3/1/17


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of the grandmother of Jesus
The holy skull of Saint Anne is kept in an urn in Cappella Palatina in Castelbuono. This is a village on the island of Sicily in Italy. This skull is taken out for a stroll once a year.

Here's another relic raking in millions of dollars for the RCC. Again this is a heathan practice by some African tribes, who dig up the dead, and dress them up in clothing and jewelry, also,parading around, just as this skull is adorned with Jewels and paraded around.

It's satanic Nicole. I wonder what the Mark of the beast is actually going to be that so may of you all will fall for hook line and sinker, because you have been greased to venerate and knead and kiss what God calls Idolotry?
---kathr4453 on 3/1/17


\\Doesn't matter, they are still relics. 3rd class that.\\

Actually, if it were somehing handled or used by the saint during his lifetime, it's a SECOND class relic.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/1/17


Ms Nicole, I'm so glad you are grossed out by such a thing. But it is the truth. national Geographic also,did a doc of it and I Watched it last night. You also can pull up this National Geographic episode on YouTube. The person traveling all over Europe interviews Priests from the Vatican and also the village it was stolen. This was not something someone made up .....

Yes, it is disgusting. But it was regarded the #1 most important artifact the Church had.

I'm glad you are offended Nicole, and maybe your indignation can now be directed to the RCC, and not those who are telling you the truth. Some here will never do that.
---kathr4453 on 3/1/17


So,Strongaxe, it appears you are a defender of the RCC and its practices. That's all that is need to,know here. Thanks
---kathr4453 on 3/1/17


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kathr4453:

At least with John Paul II's blood, there's a fairly easy forensic test that can be performed to see if it's genuine - run a DNA test. This could easily be compared with his remains (if they exist), or with any known relatives otherwise.

With purported relics from Jesus, it's harder, since we have no way to ascertain his DNA.

So Strongaxe, since you DO like and believe things written outside of scripture, why do you have a problem with this???

I believe SOME things outside scripture are true. There is much fraud (pious and otherwise) in the world. There are enough chips from the "true cross of Jesus" to build a shopping mall. Most MUST necessarily be fakes.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/17


//did not keep the RCC From claiming they had possession of such a thing.//

YOU ARE SICK!

YOU, NOT the CC CLAIMS SUCH NONSENSE.

You wouldn't even CITE that stupid article because you KNOW it's a Protestant source NOT CC.

//Then it was stolen.//

WHAT?

THERE'S NO FORESKIN TO STEAL!

//the Pope banned its use for display.//

To protect people like you who might actually think it's real.

//Also look online , you will see umpteen paintings of the baby Jesus getting circumcised--Kathr

I NEVER SEEN ONE PAINTING. And I was a Nun and been to the Vatican and all OVER Italy. Never seen ONE painting.

Get off line it's confusing you.

EVERYTHING YOU READ ONLINE ISN'T TRUE.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/28/17


Strong axe, I couldn't agree with you more. But that did not keep the RCC From claiming they had possession of such a thing. Then it was stolen. Then Catholic Churches all over Europe claimed they had the OFFICIAL foreskin. Then because there was so many imitations, the Pope banned its use for display. Also look online , you will see umpteen paintings of the baby Jesus getting circumcised.....so YES there was an obsession....and evidently a cult today who calls themselves The Order of Jesus Foreskin. I kid you not. The obsession with relics is pagan, and these pagan beliefs were incorporated into the RCC in order to appease the pagans to willingly come under the RCC. It influenced the ignorant. Today man is without excuse.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/17


For centuries, the relic of the Holy Foreskin was considered by believers to be the only piece of Jesus flesh to remain on earth after he ascended to heaven, and thus was among the most sacred relics in Christendom. Then, on New Years Day 1983, in a tiny village in the Italian countryside, Father Don Dario announced to his expectant flock that their beloved relic had been stolen. New York Times writer David Farley goes on a quest to unravel the story of this mysterious crime.

when Pope John Paul II vial of blood was here, someone stole that too. There were three vials, one that was in Florida went missing, and it was a big deal.
---kathr4453 on 2/28/17


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Holy Prepuce, Relic of the foreskin of Jesus Christ, Circumcision of Christ (detail), by Friedrich Herlin
The Holy Prepuce, or Holy Foreskin (Latin prputium or prepucium) is one of several relics attributed to Jesus, a product of the circumcision of Jesus. At various points in history, a number of churches in Europe have claimed to possess Jesus' foreskin, sometimes at the same time. Various miraculous powers have been ascribed to it. The first reference to the survival of Christ's severed foreskin comes in the second chapter of the apocryphal Arabic Infancy Gospel which contains the following story:.....


So Strongaxe, since you DO like and believe things written outside of scripture, why do you have a problem with this???
---kathr4453 on 2/28/17


kathr4453:

I find the whole foreskin thing very dubious. How many people today who circumsize their sons actually keep the foreskins for posterity? Jewish tradition commands that the foreskin be buried, and it's not likely Joseph and Mary would go against that. 30 or more years later, who would know where to even look for it, assuming that it hadn't already decomposed to dust?
---StrongAxe on 2/28/17


//A vial containing the blood of the late Pope John Paul II is going on tour across Americas east coast. Article dated June 2014.--Kathr

Thank you for your clarifications, because you said Pope John not John Paul II.

You can NOT drop a partial name or number when you speak about a Pope.

Once a name is used it can never be used again.

EX: if another Pope wants to use Francis as his name he will be called Pope Francis II because this current pope is Francis the first.

The Pope canonized with Pope John Paul II is John Pope John XXIII.

So when you said Pope John which is 22 popes before this John XXIII I knew it wasn't Catholic.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/28/17


A vial containing the blood of the late Pope John Paul II is going on tour across Americas east coast. Article dated June 2014. This is a fact.

Foreskin, yes Nicole. From the baby Jesus circumcision. Seems like by the 16 century or so, there was 20 some Catholic Churches claiming THEY HAD the real foreskin of Jesus circumcision.

That verse regardless of what you think it might say, does not say the Aprons healed anyone. It also does not say they are relics.

Relics, the way the RCC has and uses is witchcraft and superstition. There is so much demon possession and exorcism in the RCC because YOU ALL INVITE DEMONIC ACTIVITY.

The sad part is Nicole, you can't see the difference.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


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//I don't see these as relics.//

Doesn't matter, they are still relics. 3rd class that.

But you called holy water magic? Explain how Holy water is magic, but NOT a handkerchief touching a man, then applied to the sick?

A priest praying to God to bless water is magic to you, but not the aprons without prayer?

//This verse does not teach that relics, like Jesus foreskin, or Thomas's finger,//

???? Do you know what a foreskin is?

//a vile of the Blood of Pope John is traveling around now I hear in Florida, where folks are kissing it, and are suppose to be healed.---Kathr

NOT Catholic.

Our Pope John has been DEAD for centuries and HASN'T been pronounced a saint.

You are mistaken.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/27/17


I don't see these as relics. The apostles were given special healing powers for one purpose....TO PROCLAIM THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE GOSPEL. just as the woman touched the hem of Jesus robe, the robe itself had no power. And it was the faith of the woman.

This verse does not teach that relics, like Jesus foreskin, or Thomas's finger, or the shroud or whatever has or holds any special powers.

BUT it is my understanding that a vile of the Blood of Pope John is traveling around now I hear in Florida, where folks are kissing it, and are suppose to be healed.

It's sad that verses taken out of context have created such scams as prayer cloths being sold, anointing oil, where the emphasis is on healing and not the Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 2/27/17


//God is gracious to not despise our weakness of faith but would assuredly condescend to our limitation to set us free//

YES YES YES

Some believe you must pray these lofty prayers and be in a certain state of grace before God will heal you.

They are wrong.

You can be have the blackest stain on your soul and pray in simple words using whatever materials to seek God's favor.

God is TRICKLED PINK when the sees he simple souls and grants them what they ask.

//GOD is intimately relational, still very much desiring to be heard of his children.'//

AMEN!

//So I give a pass to men of weak faith, but don't agree that they're "called" to lead a church.---Pharisee on 2/27/17

Agree
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/27/17


Nicole if you are saying that God is gracious to not despise our weakness of faith but would assuredly condescend to our limitation to set us free, I give you a whole-hearted and brotherly AMEN.

I add that it's a difficult task being set in a position to speak for God. I tend to wink at pastors who say things like "The Bible is the only revelation you'll ever get from God." If I could speak to him in the midst of the sermon I'd tell him 'no dear sir, that may be true for you because you refuse to see another perspective, but GOD is intimately relational, still very much desiring to be heard of his children.' So I give a pass to men of weak faith, but don't agree that they're "called" to lead a church.
---Pharisee on 2/27/17


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I agree Pharisee.

Can we can we also say God can heal anyone any way and how as He wishes?

I wonder why no one in Acts accuse the people of using magic because they used material items through a man for healings instead of praying on their knees asking Jesus directly?

Today some on CN would accuse those same people of idol worship.

They can't explain these healings in Acts 19 or the healings through the material use of a bronze snake.

They probably wouldn't approve of Jesus using dirt to heal blindness if the truth be known.
---Nicole_Lacey on 2/26/17


"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
---josef on 2/26/17


Paul has and apostolic anointing through the Holy Spirit.

A "working of miracles" was given as one of the nine spirit gifts named in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

It's a hotly contested debate as to whether apostolic anointings can exist today. I'm no cessationist and I say they don't need to for God to grant this gift. In gifts there are gifts that God directs, that type a person can't use it at-will (acts 13:9-11) unless God bestows that authority the way he did with the apostles. I have "worked miracles" through the Holy Spirit but I don't say I'm an apostle. I emphatically insist that the working of miracles is for the authentication of God's Gospel truth even in this age.
---Pharisee on 2/26/17


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