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How Did Life Begin

Did the universe and all life have a naturalistic or a supernatural beginning?

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 ---Jerry6593 on 3/17/17
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David:

There is no need to look at hypotheticals. Just study a bit of biology. There are many very primitive life forms (viruses, bacteria, protozoa, fungi, plants, flatworms, etc.) that have various essential systems (nervous, digestive, circulatory, reproductive, etc.) with a wide variety of diffent levels of complexity.

The next time you go to a doctor, ask him if a man could survive if he was missing any one of the systems of the body. My friend, don't become oblivious to the obvious.

That is a straw man argument, and you know it. We have systems designed to interoperate as they are. Other simpler creatures are perfectly happy with simpler systems that also interoperate with each other.
---StrongAxe on 3/28/17


Evolution is a very slow process.--StrongAxe

StrongAxe
But this primordial creation had to eat, drink, and reproduce to survive. How could it have possibly survived the time it would have taken to develop a digestive, and reproductive system?

The next time you go to a doctor, ask him if a man could survive if he was missing any one of the systems of the body. My friend, don't become oblivious to the obvious.
---David on 3/28/17


David:

There are so many erroneous pseudo-scientific assumptions in the above statement, that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Evolution is a very slow process. If (say) 99.9999% of DNA reproduces faithfully, you would have to throw away a lot of bandages before any of them contained anything that wasn't 100% you, and even once you found one of those, the chances of a random mutation being actually beneficial rather than harmful is quite slim.

Plus, even with correct DNA, the chance of a drop of blood from a bandage turning into fully functioning human being is also practically nil.
---StrongAxe on 3/27/17


We see from simpler organisms that all could develop simultaneously, in very small steps--StrongAxe

StrongAxe
I'm curious to understand what you would do with a bandage, removed from a cut on your hand?

You see my trash gets picked up once a week. And if I believed as you do, there is no way I would throw it away, because my DNA would be on it, and I would fear it might evolve into a human before the garbage got picked up.

I would have a lot of explaining to do when the cops came a knockin on my door. LOL
---David on 3/26/17


David:

No. We see from simpler organisms that all could develop simultaneously, in very small steps.


Jerry6593:

"You have no proof" is not using "logic", only saying YOURE statements do not follow rules of logic.

Why not provide PROOF, rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks? Explain HOW science and mathematics have "concluded" abiogenesis is IMPOSSIBLE.

Also, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is an exercise in reductio ad absurdum. The claim that a flying spaghetti monster created life supernaturally is just as "scientific" (or not) as the claim that Jehovah or Zeus or Odin did. We have no SCIENTIFIC proof of Genesis - it is a matter of faith.
---StrongAxe on 3/25/17




StrongAxe
The very creation of life, is absolute proof of a creator. Go to an intensive care unit sometime, and look at someone hooked to a machine that's supplementing a lost body function. All the other systems are fully functional except one. Pull the plug, and they will die. And yet folks believe man evolved? It's ridiculous when you think about it.

Here's something else to consider. If man did evolve, why can't we grow a new heart, lungs, kidneys or liver when we need one?
---David on 3/25/17


\\ the creation of life from nonliving matter - is indeed IMPOSSIBLE. \\

And yet, there is non-living matter in us and every other living thing.

On the other hand, I admit that it is impossible to get any matter at all from absolutely nothing without God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/25/17


ax: "There is no scientific PROOF that physics CANNOT produce life."

WOW! That's the same logic the atheist uses to prove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created our world.

You are as inept in the field of science as you are in that of the Bible. Science and Mathematics have indeed concluded that abiogenesis - the creation of life from nonliving matter - is indeed IMPOSSIBLE. Similarly, the ONLY explanation available from Scripture is SUPERNATURAL. Thus, you are wrong in both spheres.
---Jerry6593 on 3/25/17


Could God create man in one day? Yes. Do the laws of physics and biology REQUIRE that he did? No.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/17


StrongAxe
Are you suggesting evolution? The body evolved after many days, weeks or years? If you are, I have two questions.

What body function evolved first.....the circulatory, pulmonary, respiratory, or digestive system?
Can you explain how it survived until all the other systems evolved?
---David on 3/25/17


David:

That does not follow logically. Similarly, if God created man on day 6, and human parasites on an earlier day, how did THEY survive?

Look at all the other living creatures out there. All organ systems humans have exist in similar forms in other animals, often in in simpler forms. For example, our heart has four chambers. Some animals have two- and one-chambered hearts. The heart valve is similar to the valves in the legs that keep blood from flowing backwards due to gravity (and whose damage causes varicose veins). There are some primitive creatures that have only one valve, and whose blood moves when their bodies do.

Could God create man in one day? Yes. Do the laws of physics and biology REQUIRE that he did? No.
---StrongAxe on 3/24/17




The only logical conclusion, when knowing the physiology of man, is Supernatural.

Can a man survive...
Without a heart?
Without a respiratory system?
Without a digestive system?
Without a circulatory system?
Without a brain?

No, if you removed anyone of these, man would die. This proves man had to be created all at once, and for this creation to happen, man would have needed a creator.
---David on 3/24/17


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Laws of biology and chemistry obey the laws of physics, but none of them can produce new life forms.

That is not a statement of fact, merely opinion. There is no scientific PROOF that physics CANNOT produce life. You may assert that we cannot see it happening, and that we do not know how it is done, but absence of proof is not proof of absence. As our knowledge increases, we see more and more evidence that various pieces of evolution of life can, in fact, work (e.g. spontaneous creation of organic molecules including proteins and nucleic acids out of elemental gases).
---StrongAxe on 3/23/17


How God's eternal and unmaterial, "Fiat!' breaks into the physical and temporal universe, taking effect, is a mystery the Bible does not describe, and obviously science cannot define.

The Bible is NOT a scientific text. As a wise man said, the Bible does not tell how the heavens go, but how to go to heaven.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/23/17


Cluny: Laws of biology and chemistry obey the laws of physics, but none of them can produce new life forms. In fact, the Bible definitively states that ALL Creation was supernatural in origin, as:

Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done, he commanded, and it stood fast.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



---Jerry6593 on 3/23/17


\\But none of the laws of physics can accomplish creation of life, as Evolutionists assert. \\

Don't forget there are also the laws of biology and chemistry going on at the same time.

You don't think that these laws created themselves, do you?

I certainly do not.

Whether creation was an act of God working ouside the laws of nature, or whether God worked through them, it's still GOD active in creation.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/22/17


Cluny: "Do you understand the difference?"

Of course. But none of the laws of physics can accomplish creation of life, as Evolutionists assert. Gravity can't make animals! The Bible records Creation as a supernatural, 6-day event, not an ongoing flow of new life forms from the wellspring of physical forces.



---Jerry6593 on 3/22/17


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//Cluny: According to Merriam-Webster, pantheism is "a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe".

So it's really close, as is Theistic Evolution.//

But I'm NOT equating the forces and laws of the universe.

What I said was that God normally works through the laws of nature, physics, and such that HE HIMSELF established.

Do you understand the difference?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/20/17


Cluny: According to Merriam-Webster, pantheism is "a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe".

So it's really close, as is Theistic Evolution.



---Jerry6593 on 3/20/17


\\ Are you implying Pantheism - that God is just a force pervading all of nature? \\

This is not what pantheism is.

God can work through His own laws, or miraculously outside them.

Either way, it's still God working.

I have several medical issues, gout and diabetes among them, that require daily medications. And every day I thank God for the provision He has made for me, because I'm still being healed.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/19/17


Cluny: "God generally works thorugh natural laws that He Himself established."

Are you implying Pantheism - that God is just a force pervading all of nature? That seems to be at odds with the biblical quote from Josef below that:

"Things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Natural phenomena do not manifest themselves this way. As the scripture implies, one needs faith to understand the Creation.





---Jerry6593 on 3/19/17


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Yes.

God generally works thorugh natural laws that He Himself established.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 3/18/17


"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He spoke, and it was done, He commanded, and it stood fast. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
---Josef on 3/17/17


supernatural

And God's ways are "past finding out" (please consider Romans 11:33) > this is why scientists keep discovering how they can not figure things out. Because our Creator's ways are still working in His creation, including how our bodies function at such a high level (c:
---Bill on 3/17/17


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