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Finish It Here June 2017

Finish it here June 2017

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Kathr. "Cannot sin" (1John 3:9), "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1), "who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of God's elect" (Rom 8:33), are all examples of scriptures that indicate Christians are SINLESS.

Christians should not lie, but lying (except the anti Christ lie, 1John 2:22) is not sin that can be charged against us as we're not under the jurisdiction of the law (Rom 3:19, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18) to be charged and face it's death penalty. Instead God chastises us should we do wrong (Heb 12).

I'm glad to see you acknowledge that our position changes once we believe on Jesus being covered by his righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.
---Haz27 on 6/14/17


Kathr ask, "When Noah preached for 125 years, did he quote BCV from anything?"

The Holy Spirit, "Inspirer." of, "Scripture." doesn't tell us,however, the Holy Spirit inspired Moses to write concerning Noah in BCV... giving us all we need to know about him...

Ma'am, BCV contains "SolaScriptura."

Do you know what is, "Sola Scriptura?"

From your statements I have to conclude that you do not believe in, "SolaScriptura." since the same arguments you are raising are the same by Cluny, and strongaxe who unequivocally reject "Sola Scriptura."...
---john9346 on 6/14/17


Kathr ask, "Also please tell us exactly how many people you have seen and KNOW we're saved solely on someone stating BCV.....and that you know for a FACT THAT was 100% the reason for their salvation."

This is a very "Good Question."... Surpirse it hasn't been asked sooner...

There are many, but here are just some:

Augustine, Martin Luther (reformer), Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, etc.
---john9346 on 6/14/17


strongaxe:

1. You have been provided this definition on Several Blogs.

2. The definition of canonicity you gave is not a def,but is describing a specific chariteristic of canonicity, but this isn't "Definition."

3. You have all ready been provided the def for canonicity as well on Several Blogs.

4. Like I said, "Logically, when objecting one must know his object to object.
---john9346 on 6/14/17


john9346:

You wrote: Sir, respectfully, can you provide the definition of "Sola Scriptura?"

Since this is a doctrine you are defending, why don't you give me your precise definition, so we don't argue at cross-purposes? If I give you mine and it's wrong, it won't help either one of us talk about the right things.

Canonicity is the property of a document, whereas it is generally accepted as part of the canon of scripture, whatever that happens to entail in the context (e.g. in many Christian denominations, it means it is divinely inspired, although the precise meaning of "inspired" may vary).
---StrongAxe on 6/14/17




As for lying, Christians should NEVER lie as defined in 1John 2:22 (being anti Christ, which is sin).

Nor should they lie in general terms because love does no harm to another.
---Haz27 on 6/14/17

Glad you agree it is possible for Christians to lie which is a sin.

The problem is your word "SINLESS".

Can you find a verse using the word SINLESS, that says we are sinless, OR is this just YOUR use of words based on your understanding of what happened to us when we became a Christian.

Also, another way to look at this, since Jesus took my sin, does not make Jesus a sinner. YET your application would make Him so.
---kathr4453 on 6/14/17


Kathr. You list the law of righteousness to define sin when its transgressed.

But the law ONLY applies to those UNDER IT (Rom 3:19).

Christians are NOT under the law for righteousness (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18).

Thus Christians CANNOT BE CHARGED with the sin of transgression of law (1John 3:4).
Thus Christians CANNOT BE CHARGED with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17).

Which is confirmed in Rom 8:33
Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

As for lying, Christians should NEVER lie as defined in 1John 2:22 (being anti Christ, which is sin).

Nor should they lie in general terms because love does no harm to another.
---Haz27 on 6/14/17


John, Can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt there was the written word between the time on Adam and Eve and Noah. Is there any scripture stating Noah preserved any books or scrolls from the flood? When Noah preached for 125 years, did he quote BCV from anything? And how many people between Adam and Noah do you believe we're believers, having faith?

Also please tell us exactly how many people you have seen and KNOW we're saved solely on someone stating BCV.....and that you know for a FACT THAT was 100% the reason for their salvation.

You just don't know when to quit....and when confronted with statements and questions, just change your approach to your question. Are we talking Sola or are we talking BCV?
---kathr4453 on 6/13/17


Haz27, LYING is a transgression of the LAW. the Law points to sin.

If it is impossible to lie as a Christian, it seems really odd Paul asks Christians to not LIE to one another.

This conversation is bordering on the bazaar with you Haz27.

Believe what you will, but LYING is one of the 10 commandments of thou shall not...bearing false witness IS LYING HAZ. Even a little white lie...is a LIE.

God CANNOT LIE HAZ, but YOU CAN. Therefore YOU are not sinless as God is sinless.
---kathr4453 on 6/13/17


strongaxe:

"Sola Scriptura one be applied in context."

Sir, respectfully, can you provide the definition of "Sola Scriptura?"

"In apostolic times, the teachings of the apostles were not yet scripture, so anyone following Sola Scriptura at the time could not, in good conscience, obey the apostles when their teachings disagreed with scripture."

Sir, this is "Canonicity." not, "Sola Scriptura."

Can you give the definition of "Canonicity?"

Logically, when objecting one must know his object to object.
---john9346 on 6/13/17




1 Pet 2:24 is an explanation of fulfillment as well as 1 Pet 2:24 is not a "Direct Quotation." of Isa 53:5 simply because Peter's Point was fulfillment,however, in the next chapter 3 he reference Abraham and Sarah.


Sure, See, Jn 17:17, 15:1-11, 8:31-32, Rom 15:4, and 2 Tim 3:15.

So based on your statement the "Scriptures." are not the only "Infallible Rule of faith and Practice." for Christians??
---john9346 on 6/13/17


Kathr. Sin is transgression of the law (1John 3:4).
Unrighteousness is sin (1John 5:17)
Unbelief in Jesus is sin (John 16:9).
Can you see how all these definitions are related?
Which of the above do you suggest true Christians can be charged with?

As for lying being a sin, see 1John 2:22 to see the definition of the liar the Bible speaks of.

WHO IS A LIAR but he WHO DENIES THAT JESUS IS THE CHIRST? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son

There are so many warnings throughout scripture against the sin of unbelief, and of deceivers who seek to lead Christians into unbelief, which is being a LIAR.
---Haz27 on 6/13/17


Colossians 3:9

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds,

One of the 10 commandments....that thing that tells us what sin is, says, do not bear false witness. AKA LYING. Satan is the father of LIES. Just as he lied to Eve. Acts 5, Peter asks, WHY HAS SATAN FILLED YOUR HEART TO LIE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Peter was talking to a Christian. And there were consequences for that LIE.

That is the BIBLES definition of SIN Haz27.

You fail to read ALL of Gods word, and look at one verse hoping to find some loop hole so you can continue in your sin, and call it WHAT?
---kathr4453 on 6/13/17


Kathr. You've not given definition of sin from scripture.

Read 1John 1 and note context. It "bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life" (verse 2). It declares gospel of eternal life. To who? The lost, who are still in sin.

1John 1:6 describes these lost/sinners, who claim to know God, but walk in darkness/unbelief. They're self righteous, claiming to be without sin (1John 1:8) by their own works (much like Paul before conversion, Phil 3:6).

Note below the position of lost/sinner.
1John 3:6 Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him
1John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil
John 8:34 Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin
Do YOU sin?
---Haz27 on 6/13/17


Haz27, Christ is who is in us. Again 1John states " if WE SAY WE have no sin, the truth is not in us" ....now just think Haz27.... The TRUTH "IN US" is also Christ, who states HE IS the WAY TRUTH AND LIFE.

And without laying pages here Haz27, unbelievers DO NOT HAVE THE TRUTH IN THEM. Christians do. Si this verse AGAIN, without laying out page after page. States very clearly we sin, and WE confess our sin for CLEANSING, not salvation.

If you want to argue this, do. But not with me. I'm very SOLID on my conviction here. We will be sinless in the NEW Heaven and Earth WHEN we have been Glorified together with Christ when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
---kathr4453 on 6/13/17


john9346:

Sola Scriptura one be applied in context. In apostolic times, the teachings of the apostles were not yet scripture, so anyone following Sola Scriptura at the time could not, in good conscience, obey the apostles when their teachings disagreed with scripture (e.g. when Paul said believers need not be circumcized, or Peter said eating all meats was acceptable). In fact, Jesus himself lost followers over this very issue - when he told them they needed to eat his flesh, scripture said eating human flesh was forbidden, so anyone teaching otherwise was going against scripture, and Sola Scriptura DEMANDED they not listen to him.
---StrongAxe on 6/13/17


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Folks, 1 John 5:16-17 and ACTS 5, please read together. These are warnings TO CHRISTIANS. You want BCV, OK, let's see if that makes any difference here with Haz27.

I do not believe a Christian can lose their salvation, and that is WHY 1John says He is Faithful,and Just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Even the TYPE of Jesus washing Peters feet and NOT AGAIN his whole body show we do need daily cleansing while walking in this dirty world. Will our feet get dirty in the NEW heaven and earth? NO.

This earth has NOT yet passed away Haz27. Neither has your FLESH. We must TODAY die daily.

Haz27, are YOU obeying that? Or do you feel to die daily is unnecessary? You can't have it both ways.
---kathr4453 on 6/13/17


Kathr. I agree there is no sin in God's kingdom,as you say. BUT, we differ in that the kingdom of God (where there's NO SIN) is already in us, which confirms what I showed from scripture that Christians CANNOT sin (1John 3:9).

As for your "line upon line, precept upon precept" quote, see the rest for context.

Isa 28:13
But the word of the Lord was to them,
Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,
That they might go and FALL BACKWARD, AND BE BROKEN
And SNARED and CAUGHT


Instead for Christians being taught by Jesus (Matt 23:8) our eyes are now open, and our ears hear the word of God (Isa 29:18)
---Haz27 on 6/12/17


John, again, when Peter quoted OT scripture in Isaiah, HE DID NOT REFERENCE ISAIAH. SO why can't you get that through your head. Many many OT scriptures were quoted by the Apostles without referencing ......so pease STOP acting so holier than thou here criticizing others.


Isaiah 53:5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/17


been explaining the need to cite BCV because it will sanctify the (saints) and save the (sinner)
---john9346 on 6/12/17

John please verify with SCRIPTURE, that is BCV where citing BCV will save the sinner? You just broke your own rule of making absolute statements WITHOUT BACKING IT UP AT ALL WITH SCRIPTURE. BAD MOVE. What BOOK, CHAPTER AND VERSE says that stating such will SAVE A SINNER?

Jesus death and resurrection saves John, and many were saved BEFORE any B was divided into C and V.

And interesting enough, this comment you have coming from a Calvinist as you are is actually stunning. Do you now believe Faith Comes by hearing?
---kathr4453 on 6/12/17


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Haz27, You referred to my Rev comment. First Romans 5 says Sin entered the words, and by one man Adam ....Adam sin brought death to all men. Rev 21 states that in the new Heaven and earth there will be NO DEATH, NO CURSE ETC. So TECNICALLY the word "sin will not enter heaven is not there" HOWEVER, if death IS the result of sin, and there will be no death, to someone who takes more than one scripture into account when making a comment would have no problem with what I said. To a baby Christian who has not studied, and applied line upon line, precept upon precept....it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to get that concept through to them with out actually spending months and maybe years teaching them the simple fundamentals of our faith.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/17


And my final thought Haz27 and John.....when I do try, with all honesty and sincerely lay the ground work I actually get cussed by many here who accuse me of too many posts, and getting off the subject, when actually that is not the case, but like Strongaxe states , when laying any foundation that is meaningful , it is impossible to do in 125 words.

Either way, it's a no win no win situation. We still want to participate, and the get slammed AGAIN for not saying this or that. That's why I have to back away often.

Paradise vs Abrahams Bosom is just another example that CANNOT be explained in a quick post. As you see, I had to cut that short. Going back and laying the foundation would take pages.
---kathr4453 on 6/12/17


Haz27 states, "John9346. We're all at different levels of understanding (stages of growth) and need to consider this when sharing God's word. Ultimately Christ is our teacher (Matt 23:8, 1John 2:27), and others may yet receive understanding in future if they grow in Christ."

Absolutely my friend...this is why I have been explaining the need to cite BCV because it will sanctify the (saints) and save the (sinner)
---john9346 on 6/12/17


strongaxe:

:-) thank you for being honest.

I always enjoy dialoging with you please know that...


Although You are 100% wrong about your objection of "Sola Scriptura." and based on your writings you contradict yourself each time.

Strongaxe, tell us, what is the definition of "Sola Scriptura."

You also in your statement did what I pointed out to you before "Canonicity." and "Sola Scriptura." are not the same thing sir, Not sure why you continue to state as such.
---john9346 on 6/12/17


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Kathr:

The authors of Scripture themselves cited, reference each other so are you better than they ma'am??

If I told you to go to strongaxe house and give you know direction, no description of what strongaxe looks like ma'am, tell the readers here does this make sense??

Kathr, if I just had the attitude well I know where strongaxe lives and what he looks like how would that help you if you don't know??

Please Explain to us all here where is the logic in this??
---john9346 on 6/12/17


Quoting BCV is without doubt the best, most helpful method.
Example: A recent post from Kathr referred to something in Rev but she did not remember where. I used her subject/words for search but could not find what she referred to. I didn't bother pursing it with her due to CN limits.

John9346. We're all at different levels of understanding (stages of growth) and need to consider this when sharing God's word. Ultimately Christ is our teacher (Matt 23:8, 1John 2:27), and others may yet receive understanding in future if they grow in Christ.
---Haz27 on 6/11/17


john9346:

Unfortunately, scripture is not a mathematically precise legal document. Much is ambiguous and prone to interpretation and extrapolation. (e.g. "thou shalt not kill" cannot possibly mean that literally and universally, otherwise, it would forbid slaughter of animals, which is permitted in parts of the Law, and is required in others, e.g. capital punishment, ritual animal slaughter, etc.) This is why denominations and debate exist.

I reject the word only, as there are plenty of cases where the Bible itself rejects it. Prophets would have been useless, if their words were not to be believed. During NT times, the Apostles' teachings were authoritative, even when scripture consisted entirely of the OT.
---StrongAxe on 6/11/17


---john9346 on 6/11/17

Of coarse, we live by EVERY word of God. And that was my point John, there is nothing In the Word of God aka: scripture that says when we share the Lord with others in daily conversation we need to sound like Jack Van Impy ( sp) by naming b,c v in every single sentence that comes out of our mouth. When I hear someone say for instance ..."In the last days perilous times will come". I KNOW where that is. SOOOO I don't disqualify the statement because they didn't first or last say b, c, & v.

And if I hear something, as I have over the years hundreds of times that is not in scripture or twisted scripture....believe it or not I research till the cows come home to prove or disprove.
---kathr4453 on 6/11/17


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Kathr said, "Why not just accept the fact , that like YOU, others here have a different perspective?"

But thats what you and others who take your position fail to understand... We're discussing, "God's Word." the "Scriptures." not, "Your, mine or anyone elses opinion." The "Scriptures." are, "Theopneustos."

The "Scriptures." are the only "Infallibel Rule of Faith and Practice." for Christians.

Kathr do you believe this?

I all ready know strongaxe and Cluny do not believe this and reject, but do you yourself believe, "The "Scriptures." are the only "Infallibel Rule of Faith and Practice." for Christians?
---john9346 on 6/11/17


strongaxe:

I and others here cite ch and verse despite 125 Word Limit. See, Haz's Response he did it even though the limitation...

Love your analogy I'll take the Candy Rapper... Your analogy is perfect to my point because you are leaving the seekers for truth with some substance something to hold on to...
---john9346 on 6/11/17


john9346"

Sir, all I'm just saying is if you quote Scripture. cite its ch and verse thats all. It simply help those reading learn and know the truth.

As I've stated before many times, I usually try to do so. However, the 125 word limit here frequently prohibits this. (This is the ONLY forum I have seen that has such ridiculous limits, by the way). So I am left with the choice of either omitting the reference, or omitting the quotation. When you want to take a candy bar with you, you usually take it with the wrapper. If you can't take both, which would you keep? The candy bar, or the wrapper?
---StrongAxe on 6/11/17


There are a lot of interesting replies here - thanks!
---Tammy on 6/10/17


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It's become obvious John that you will beat this discussion to a pulp until you claim you won the argument. Why not just accept the fact , that like YOU, others here have a different perspective? John,just accept the fact that YOU have your OPINION, and so do others. UNLESS you can find at least 2-3 verses clearly stating one MUST put c, v and book when sharing the Lord with others....then back off. I can find NOTHING in scripture COMMANDING SUCH.

Josef. Please share your understanding of Abrahams Bosom vs Paradise. Maybe I can learn something from your perspective.
Thanks:)
---kathr4453 on 6/10/17


strongaxe:

"
When I put something in quotation marks, it means it is a quote. It takes just a few seconds to google a quote to see where it comes from. It's from a scripture, you can be sure that many web sites show up and show chapter, verse, context, and much more than one would ever want to know."

Sir, all I'm just saying is if you quote Scripture. cite its ch and verse thats all. It simply help those reading learn and know the truth.

To not cite, reference, or point to ch and verse is to give your opinion...

Strongaxe, example of what I am talking about is Haz27's Last Response to Kathr. You see, he quoted, cited, and pointed to verses like 1 John 1:6, 8, this is what I am saying sir.
---john9346 on 6/10/17


Strongaxe:

Note, Haz27's Response do you see its not about him, but all "Scripture."

He cited, reference, and pointed to Scripture eventhough there is a 125 Word Limitation...

He even did it by bringing out the context all Praise to Yahweh...
---john9346 on 6/10/17


Kathr:

"John, I also don't see Ezekiel 3:18 and 20, as you posted say anything about chapter verse and book."

Ma'am, did you read them in light of this discussion?

"It's the Holy Spirit John that witnesses to TRUTH, not chapter verse and book."

But didn't the Holy Spirit inspire the words of the chapters, verses, and Books of "Scripture." yes or no.

When Paul used the word, "Theopneustos.", was he refering to the chapters, verses, and books that contain theWords of "Scripture." or Someone's Mere Failure to point to "Scripture." see, 2 Tim 3:15-17?
---john9346 on 6/10/17


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strongaxe states, "Quoting a bogus scripture IN THE SAME SENTENCE that I warn that not all references are legitimate and you must check them out yourself is NOT deception."

It is if those reading don't know...

If you had a 5 year old son and told him that Arizona is the earth to him its true and you are deceiving him.

Remember what you stated, "He judges people based on their love, NOT their theology."

So I ask are you in love when you refuse to help/guide your fellow man to learning the "Scripture." when you refuse to cite/refer to chapter and verse??
---john9346 on 6/9/17


"Abrahams Bosom also being Paradise?" Is what I question. Whether a person lives after death is another debate. Kathr all I need as concerning this discussion are the bcv's I will look them up and read them. If Luke 16:22-31 is your only reference, then I suppose it is simply a matter how those verses are interpreted, and what one has been given to believe. Thanks
---josef on 6/9/17


Kathr. You've not given definition of sin from scripture.

Read 1John 1 and note context. It "bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life" (verse 2). It declares gospel of eternal life. To who? The lost, who are still in sin.

1John 1:6 describes these lost/sinners, who claim to know God, but walk in darkness/unbelief. They're self righteous, claiming to be without sin (1John 1:8) by their own works (much like Paul before conversion, Phil 3:6).

Note below the position of lost/sinner.
1John 3:6 Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him
1John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil
John 8:34 Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin
Do YOU sin?
---Haz27 on 6/10/17


john9346:

When I put something in quotation marks, it means it is a quote. It takes just a few seconds to google a quote to see where it comes from. It's from a scripture, you can be sure that many web sites show up and show chapter, verse, context, and much more than one would ever want to know.

True, most people don't know how many chapters each book has, but anyone who CARES to look up a scripture can do so on Biblegateway, and in seconds it will tell you no such verse exists.

Again, it takes less than a minute to look up a scripture, compared to half an hour each time trying to shoehorn every single post to fit as much possible information within 125 words.
---StrongAxe on 6/10/17


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Josef, Luke 16:22-31. I will highlight the verses pertaining to this discussion, as there is one enough room to post all ...

Luke 16: 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried, ( NOTICE THE RICH YOUNG MAN WAS NOT Carried to ABRAHAMS BOSOM, BUT IN HELL....23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: .......
---kathr4453 on 6/9/17


Josef, I,posted what I could get for 125 words. I'm not sure what part here is in question.....

The fact that our soul does not die, or Abrahams Bosom also being Paradise? We see in this scripture they were able to talk to one another, with a great gulf separating....we also saw the rich young ruler in hell LOOKED UP....

Before Jesus rose from the dead, no one was "in Christ" as we are today.

I have no problem with paradise being referred to as Abrahams Bosom, seeing Abraham is the Father of our faith.... It was an enduring reference of those who are Abrahams Spiritual Children. TODAY , those saved ARE IN CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/17


John, I also don't see Ezekiel 3:18 and 20, as you posted say anything about chapter verse and book. Again, you just made my point that quoting scripture ADDING YOUR COMMENTARY and personal interpretation, will NOT be accompanied by the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit John that witnesses to TRUTH, not chapter verse and book.

Your verses are great verses, but says NOTHING about making sure you quote C,V, and Book. Therefore falls flat.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/17


cluny states, "Actually, john, the chapter and verse divisions of the Bible didn't exist in the patristic age. They are both products of the Middle Ages and Reformation."

The point is didn't the church fathers remember entire books of "Scripture." by memory without even having to look at the bible.

I'm sure as an Eastern Orthodox you should know this right?

"Why did you say something that has no basis in reality?"

Tell us, how many of the Church Fathers have you really studied and read sir?
---john9346 on 6/9/17


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Kathr:

"John, how dare you compare any one to the church fathers. When were the Apostles LETTERS actually put into CHAPTER, VERSE AND BOOK?"

Read the Church Fathers they will tell you...

"MY CHURCH FATHER, PAUL QUOTED FROM SCRIPTURE AND SET NO SUCH example. Neither did Peter or James or John."

So, Paul, Peter, James, and John didn't cite/reference "Scripture." pointing people to the Christ in "Scripture.?"
---john9346 on 6/9/17


strongaxe:

"By searching the scriptures "to see if it be so"

Strongaxe, This is "Illogical." because your not telling the readers that you are directing to "Scripture."

If you give someone a folder with a piece of paper inside and don't tell them its a check, then learn the check hasn't been cashed 4 weeks later. Whose to blame sir??

Your example of Rev 23:5 is a Logical Fallacy because not all readers here are the same in their Scriptural Knowledge.

It would be only true if this was a church...
---john9346 on 6/9/17


\\Kathr, on any given day the church fathers could quote, cite along with chapter and verse "Scripture." (books and chapters)

Actually, john, the chapter and verse divisions of the Bible didn't exist in the patristic age. They are both products of the Middle Ages and Reformation.

Why did you say something that has no basis in reality?
---Cluny on 6/9/17


"Josef, the words Abraham's Bosom is used once in scripture. It is used as one of MANY TERMS used to describe a place where those who have passed go." Kathr what are you basing that statement on?
"I'm sure if you read a d pray about it, the Holy Spirit our TEACHER will illuminate your understanding." I would be happy to Kathr, please lead me to the verses I should read, If relevant I am quite certain that I will be enlightened. If not, I am more than willing to leave you to your beliefs.
---josef on 6/9/17


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john9346:

You wrote: how will they know?

By searching the scriptures "to see if it be so", as the Bereans did. It's easy to look up a quote to see if any scripture that ACTUALLY contains it or look up a chapter and verse to see if it's legitimate (as you did, with my bogus Rev. 23:5 - something I heard a preacher throw at his congregation to see if they were paying attention).

Quoting a bogus scripture IN THE SAME SENTENCE that I warn that not all references are legitimate and you must check them out yourself is NOT deception - it is specifically illustrating my point by satire, as I'm specifically singling it out.
---StrongAxe on 6/9/17


strongaxe:

Not sure why you have a problem with what I am saying?

"Anyone who has internet access and can take 5 seconds to read a post on these blogs can also take 5 seconds to look up a scripture on Biblegateway."

But if you don't reference it as "Scripture." how will they know?

"Citing a reference doesn't prove anything unless YOU look it up ANYWAY. (See Rev 23:5)."

Sir, you just prooved my point you referenced Rev 23:5, but you did so very deceptive because their is no Rev 23:5.

Strongaxe, citing rev 23:5 is deception not to mention lying and so how are you now, "Loving your neighbor as yourself?" especially when you are now lying to them??
---john9346 on 6/9/17


For those hear who think its funny, and are flippid to mislead and not point seekers to Christ in Scripture:

Hear the Word of Yahweh:

Ezek 3:

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.

20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered, but his blood will I require at thine hand.
---john9346 on 6/9/17


John, how dare you compare any one to the church fathers. When were the Apostles LETTERS actually put into CHAPTER, VERSE AND BOOK?

MY CHURCH FATHER, PAUL QUOTED FROM SCRIPTURE AND SET NO SUCH example. Neither did Peter or James or John.

There is no argument here except with your ridged rules adding to GRACE to condemned others. There is NO CONDEMNATION to those In Christ John. Stop accusing and fault finding here. Its annoying.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/17


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John, sorry you feel others are flippant here. Was Paul,being flippant when he wrote Romans 9...a chapter steeped with OT scripture without any c v or book. And Paul wrote to Gentiles who didn't even know OT scriptures.

Here many are writing to who they believe other believers. We are answering each other's questions.

And posting scripture with YOUR commentary attached doesn't make it truth either. We see this with Haz27 thinking he is sinless. I Believe 1John 1.... If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive our sin AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS " is addressed TO Christians.
---kathr4453 on 6/9/17


Kathr, on any given day the church fathers could quote, cite along with chapter and verse "Scripture." (books and chapters)

Tell us, How many books of the bible you can quote, cite from memory without reading or looking up the verses??

The church fathers could do this with no problem can you?

---john9346
---john9346 on 6/9/17


john9346:

Anyone who has internet access and can take 5 seconds to read a post on these blogs can also take 5 seconds to look up a scripture on Biblegateway. If someone can't muster enough motivation to do a simple copy+paste+click, they must not care about the subject enough for it to matter. It's not like I'm telling them to drive to the public library, or climb Mt. Olympus for the answer. I'm not putting it in their fingertips. I'm putting it one inch away. They can reach that extra inch.

Ancient Chinese proverb: "Man wait long time with open mouth waiting for roast duck to fly in."

Citing a reference doesn't prove anything unless YOU look it up ANYWAY. (See Rev 23:5).
---StrongAxe on 6/9/17


strongaxe:

"Yes, exactly. It's not necessary to give something they ALREADY have."

But sir, what if they don't??

"they can look it up. If you give the scripture, you don't need to give chapter and verse,"

Then it becomes ones own opinion instead of "Thus Says the Lord."

"the ridiculous 125 word limit here often makes it impossible to give both simultaneously."

If one loves the truth, they will find a way...

BTW, I'm well aware you deny "Sola Scriptura." which results in a "Low View of Scripture."
---john9346 on 6/8/17


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Kathr said, "And those who know the scriptures , will like Paul quote OT scripture as he did, and DID NOT put chapter verse or even the BOOK."

But what about does who don't know and are searching.

sorry to hear that you take people not being pointed to Christ in "Scripture." (truth) so flippidly.

To not cite ch and verse is to give oneown opionion instead of "Thus Says Yahweh."
---john9346 on 6/8/17


strongaxe ask, "Please explain how I am being logically inconsistent."

Because you are defending a "Selfish/self-centered Position." that is not taking in to account those who are genuinely seeking the truth meaning others meaning your neighbor.

"Loving your neighbor as yourself." isn't just true when arguing politics, but sir, its true always...

To not at least point to a chapter or verse is to give ones opinion in place of "Thus Says Yahweh."
---john9346 on 6/8/17


"for God so loved the world" needs no chapter and verse. And those who know the scriptures , will like Paul quote OT scripture as he did, and DID NOT put chapter verse or even the BOOK. I'm sure we can all agree on that. John, if you want a site that preaches to the outside world, it would be great for you to start one, using your own rules.

I often post verses without c and v not realizing so many like John only read commentaries and church fathers writings and not the Bible. My mistake is assuming others know and read their Bible and know where a verse is.

I suggest when dealing with John, you will want to show c and v.
---kathr4453 on 6/8/17


john9346:

You wrote: Wow, citing God's Holy Word in chapter and verse is in your words, "Unnecessary."

Yes, exactly. It's not necessary to give something they ALREADY have. If you give a chapter and verse, you don't need to quote the entire scripture itself, because they can look it up. If you give the scripture, you don't need to give chapter and verse, because they can look it up. Giving both is ideal, but the ridiculous 125 word limit here often makes it impossible to give both simultaneously. So I give one, and rely that the reader is capable of taking 30 seconds to look up the other one, if he really cares.
---StrongAxe on 6/8/17


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strongaxe:

"1. If one googles a quote, it's easy to find out if it's actually a biblical refrence or not." Not true... especially for the "Unlearned or unfamiliar."

"The rigid message size limits frequently require that one omit unnecessary parts of messages (e.g. "the", sometimes other words, and frequently references)."

Wow, citing God's Holy Word in chapter and verse is in your words, "Unnecessary."
---john9346 on 6/7/17


"I think our biggest danger isn't from non-Christians, but from people who claim to be Christians, but clearly aren't, because their actions go against everything Jesus taught."

So so true my friend...
---john9346 on 6/7/17


john9346:

1. If one googles a quote, it's easy to find out if it's actually a biblical refrence or not.
2. The rigid message size limits frequently require that one omit unnecessary parts of messages (e.g. "the", sometimes other words, and frequently references).
You yourself quoted "Love your neighbor as yourself", but did not provide a scripture reference, assuming that anyone would recognize where that came from (or could easily look it up, if they didn't).
3. Sadly, this site's constraints frequently make that difficult (see 2).
---StrongAxe on 6/6/17


John on 6/3:
"Ma'am, are you sure?" Yes.See my post on 5/19 with statement you quoted as Joseph having said, in particular ", "Why do you believe this would indicate failure? As sovereign, is God able to allow choice in what one believes concerning Truth?" However, as far as I am concerned, this is not a problem.
"Did you read Joseph's Replies..."I have skimmed through but would like to read through and consider.
I brought up the subject only because I had not replied quickly.
---chria9396 on 6/6/17


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strongaxe:

1. There are those reading here who can not or do not know if Joseph is giving his opinion or citing "Scripture." because he doesn't point to the reference (chapter and verse)

2. If anyone desires credibility and thinks of others rather than themselves why wouldn't they want to cite there source or point of reference to help guide others?

Remember, "Love your neighbor as yourself right?"

3. Is it logical to state a statement and can not provide the statement when asked to do so?
---john9346 on 6/5/17


Here's an example Strongaxe, if you have Strongs in book form look up the word spirit Heb. 7307 or Gk 4151, then look it up on line. Note for yourself the alterations in the form of additions. Definitions listed online that are not listed in the book as applicable to the word used or its root.
---Josef on 6/5/17


Josef:

Can you name any specific places Strong's has been altered? It's quite likely that it may have minor alterations to conform with the words used in the currently-used recension of the KJV, rather than the original, which was similar but not identical.


john9346:

One can also just google scripture snippets or a few key words, or enter them into biblegateway, to determine exactly where they come from. One can also often google what people say on this site.
---StrongAxe on 6/5/17


John there is a free online Strong's available. Although it has been altered, without warrant, from the original, probably in and attempted satisfy the biases of denominational religions, it is sufficient for finding any scripture verse by simply typing in any word found in the verse. Therefore any reader looking to document the scriptural validity of any statement made has the resource available to do so. Besides, If asked, I will gladly offer the basis for any belief I embrace, and a reason for the Hope that is in me:o)
---Josef on 6/5/17


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Joseph:

Sir, pay close attention to what i am saying to you ok?

There are people reading what we write and they seek the truth so just writing Scripture without citing chapter and verse doesn't help them if they want to do further study. Just writing Scripture without chapter and verse leaves the readers in the dark.

"I made no attempt to quote you, and a statement by you, to me, was made."

Yet you cant cite what I said right? So, saying someone said something without proof is called what sir?
---john9346 on 6/4/17


"To not quote or provide reference is to claim ownership of a statement or statements... " John I do own the statement, I made it, It was not a direct word for word quote, so I did not put the statement in quotation marks. However it is easily referenced in scripture for any one looking to document it. The word is in my heart, therefore it's in my mouth. It is the "living water" the Father has given to flow from me in an act of sharing, with anyone willing to hear. However, it is never forced on anyone.
"Its not for me to remember sir," If not you, who? "....otherwise, its bearing "False Witness." How? I made no attempt to quote you, and a statement by you, to me, was made.
---Josef on 6/4/17


Joseph said, "The blog has been deleted, it was a response your statement to me on the "Not want to live forever" blog, you only made one. If you can't remember it, don't worry about it."

Its not for me to remember sir, but when you bring up something anyone says statements, dates, and postings are necessary,otherwise, its bearing "False Witness."
---john9346 on 6/3/17


Joseph said, "Didn't have the space, the entire response were quotes from scripture, are the chapters and verses really necessary? Do you not recognized them??"

To not quote or provide reference is to claim ownership of a statement or statements... Also, if you want to be credible for those seeking the truth point them to "Scripture." so they can learn and know is more than "Necessary." its a matter of eternity...
---john9346 on 6/3/17


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"Dear Joseph sir,
1. Please provide the context of what you are alleging here (name of post, statement, and date)."

The blog has been deleted, it was a response your statement to me on the "Not want to live forever" blog, you only made one. If you can't remember it, don't worry about it.
"3. I've noticed your lack of or not at all citing verses in ownership such as chapter and verse... is this intentional??
Didn't have the space, the entire response were quotes from scripture, are the chapters and verses really necessary? Do you not recognized them??
---Josef on 6/3/17


chria9396 states, "I notice John attributed my responses to Joseph on 5/20."

Ma'am, are you sure? Did you read Joseph's Replies on 5/20/2017 from the blog, "Can God be Sovereign."
---john9346 on 6/3/17


Dear Joseph sir,

1. Please provide the context of what you are alleging here (name of post, statement, and date).

2. Provide your response to me on the "Finish It Here Blog." the one for June.

3. I've noticed your lack of or not at all citing verses in ownership such as chapter and verse... is this intentional??
---john9346 on 6/3/17


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