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Doctrine Of Immaculate Conception

This question is for Protestants only.

What does the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception mean and teach?

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 ---Cluny on 6/16/17
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Strongaxe, we are all created differently. Adam from dirt. Eve from a rib bone and us from a tiny sperm into a tiny egg.

God still breaths His life into us forming our souls.

But, Jesus was NEVER created. He needed a CLEAN VESSEL to thrive.

IC explains Mary's Salvation.

Mary was INFUSED with an abundance of God's Graces to prevent any sin. That's Scripture! She is addressed by title NOT by name.

Not created sinless, but SAVED from sin at conception.

//yet be all too willing to make that exception in Mary's case?---StrongAxe

Why does God Save one at 10 years old and another at 54 yrs old?

When can answer that question you will answer your own question at the same time.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/25/17


Nicole_Lacey:

Adam was not conceived or born sinless. He wasn not conceived or born at all. He was created ex nihilo.

If God's graces were sufficient to create Mary sinless, despite the fact that she inherited sin from her parents, it would also have been sufficient to create Jesus sinless, despite the sin of HIS parents.

The whole reason Jesus's sacrifice was even NECESSARY was because God was unwilling to just hand-wave sin away without an atonement. Why would he be unwilling or unable to do so for the world, yet be all too willing to make that exception in Mary's case?
---StrongAxe on 6/24/17


\\Both of these quote Augustine saying unbaptized babies go direct to hell.\\

And they are both wrong.

FWIW, Limbo--in particular the Limbus Infantium--has never been de fide in RCC, and Orthodoxy never accepted it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/24/17


//making Jesus the first sinless conception, not Mary.//

Neither were first but Adam.

//what exactly does the title "Full of Grace" mean? I certainly do not see that it means "sinless".//

Why not? God's Graces isn't sufficient to make Mary sinless?

//Mary had no grace of her own.//

Who claims that? Not Gabriel.

//means "Full of God's Grace" or "Highly Favored". Nothing more.---Mark_Eaton

I think Gabriel knows that, he knows God's Graces are powerful enough to keep one from sinning.

Do you believe you haven't kill someone due to you and not by God's Graces?

Gabriel is just stating facts. Mary was blessed with more of God's Graces than you or I.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/24/17


]]You wrote: I know of nobody who worships Mary with the LATREIA given to the Lord. What's more, I don't think you do, either.

Have you ever visited any Latin American countries? It's very common there]]

Have you StrongAxe? I know that I cannot see into other people's hearts and know their real motivations. Can you in such a delicate matter as this?

Most Roman Catholics will admit that there has been a lot of bad catechesis.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/24/17




"Wrong again, Samuel. Here is what St. Augustine actually said about unbaptized babies:

**, "such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all.**

In other words, limbo.... Cluny on 6/21/17"

Purgatory and Limbo was not around until after the death of Augustine.

See Pelagius: Life and Letters Apr 30, 2004
by Pelagius and B.R. Rees

And An Historical Presentation of Augustinism and Pelagianism. From the Original sources. by G. F. Wiggers.

Both of these quote Augustine saying unbaptized babies go direct to hell.

It was part of the argument they were having.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/24/17


Cluny:

You wrote: I know of nobody who worships Mary with the LATREIA given to the Lord. What's more, I don't think you do, either.

Have you ever visited any Latin American countries? It's very common there.

If that is happening with anyone, it's DESPITE the teaching of the Church, not because of it.

There are many doctrinal errors believed by many Catholics, that the Church claims are not its official doctrines. If such errors are so prevalent, it's the Church's own fault for allowing such misconceptions to be taught by its own misinformed clergy, and for not correcting parishoners who believe them.
---StrongAxe on 6/24/17


\\nor it there any reason to worship Mary as we do with Jesus. And that is the problem I see with this.\\

I know of nobody who worships Mary with the LATREIA given to the Lord. What's more, I don't think you do, either.

If that is happening with anyone, it's DESPITE the teaching of the Church, not because of it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/23/17


I simply cannot see the necessity of Mary being sinless in order to bear the Christ child. In any case, there is no scriptural basis for it, nor it there any reason to worship Mary as we do with Jesus. And that is the problem I see with this.
---Riolion on 6/22/17


Nicole_Lacey:

Why was that necessary? If so, wouldn't it also have been necessary for Mary's MOTHER to also be free of sin for Mary to dwell in HER womb?

Why couldn't the Trinity similarly prevent the stain of sin to sin Jesus's soul at the very moment HE was conceived? Why do different metaphysics apply to sinless Jesus than to sinless Mary?

Eve was conceived without sin, but she was later stained by sin - otherwise, she wouldn't have been cursed and cast out of Eden.
---StrongAxe on 6/22/17




\\Sir, it just a simple question I'm just trying to understand this from your Point of view as an Eastern Orthodox since you ask it a lot.\\

Actually, this is the first time I've ever asked it. Where did you get the idea I ask it a lot?

BTW, it was NOT St. Augustine who first posited IC, but his contemporary, the heresiarch Pelegius.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/22/17


No, the Trinity prevented the stain of sin to seal Mary's soul at the very MOMENT she was conceive.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/22/17

What you are saying makes more sense if it applied to Jesus, not Mary.

If the Holy Spirit, not involved in the conception of Mary, will do this for Mary, it is more reasonable to think that the Holy Spirit, involved in the conception of Jesus, would do this for Jesus, making Jesus the first sinless conception, not Mary.

Also, what exactly does the title "Full of Grace" mean? I certainly do not see that it means "sinless". Mary had no grace of her own. It means "Full of God's Grace" or "Highly Favored". Nothing more.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/22/17


//If this is possible, then there would have been no need for Mary to be sinless.//

Remember, Mary's title is FULL OF GRACE proclaimed by the Archangel Gabriel because she still needed to be free of sin for Jesus to dwell in her womb.

The Holy of Holies (Ark of the Covenant dwelling place) was the holiest place in the world.

Shouldn't Jesus' 9 months of life have anything less?

//Mary would ALSO have had to have been conceived by another sinless mother,//

No, the Trinity prevented the stain of sin to seal Mary's soul at the very MOMENT she was conceive.

//Eve was NOT sinless,--StrongAxe

Eve was conceived without sin but she wasn't infused with the same amount of abundance of Grace as Mary.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/22/17


john9346:

Cluny asks this question because there are so many Protestants who attack straw men of their own devising - i.e. they take a doctrine, misinterpret it, and create a totally different doctrine that is ridiculous. They then attack it because it's ridiculous, and when they've successfully proven that it's ridiculous, they think they have debunked the original doctrine, when all they have done is demolished their own straw man.

If anyone is going to debunk something, they should know exactly what it is they are debunking first. Otherwise, their effort is meaningless. If Saudi Arabia attacks you, it isn't terribly effective to retaliate by bombing Iraq (regardless of the fact that it's already been tried).
---StrongAxe on 6/21/17


Cluny said, "You still don't get that I'm asking PROTESTANTS what they think it means."

Sir, it just a simple question I'm just trying to understand this from your Point of view as an Eastern Orthodox since you ask it a lot.

Its just ironic to ask about a dogma so much that your religion views as frenging on "Heresy." Its more ironic that you are not the ones who invented it, but oppose it...

I'll respect the fact that you don't want to answer.

Thanks,

John
---john9346 on 6/21/17


]]Augustine was the great defender of this. ]]

IC didn't become an issue until a thousand years after Augustine.

\\He stated that unbaptized babies went to eternal hell. ]]

Wrong again, Samuel. Here is what St. Augustine actually said about unbaptized babies:

**, "such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all.**

In other words, limbo. Such babies, he proposed, are in a state of natural happiness, but are deprived of the Vision of God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/21/17


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Nicole_Lacey:

This is one thing that I could never understand about IC that seems to defy all logic.

The fundamental question is this. Is it possible for God to concieve a sinless child from a sinful mother? If this is possible, then there would have been no need for Mary to be sinless. If it is not possible, then Jesus would have had to be conceived by a sinless Mary (IC). However, by the very same reasoninig, Mary would ALSO have had to have been conceived by another sinless mother, and so on, back to the first mother (Eve). But Eve was NOT sinless, which results in a contradiction. Thus, the very logic, that demands IC, contradicts itself, and without it, it's no more than unsubstantiated theological hand-waving.
---StrongAxe on 6/21/17


Cluny, they reposted my statement from the past.

I made that statement but it was a while ago.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/21/17


\\Now tell me, as an Eastern Orthodox what is your clear def of this RCC Dogma?\\

You still don't get that I'm asking PROTESTANTS what they think it means.

||Were you RCC before converting to EOC?
---john9346 on 6/19/17\\

Nope.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/20/17


Thank you Nicole.

That is the definition we need to understand.

I disagree that it is true.

I do respect Mary. But I don't adore her.

GOD is love.
---Samuelbb7 on 6/20/17


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Gentlemen, IC means at the moment she was conceived from her father's sperm into her mother's egg, (Jesus'only grandparents) The Holy Spirit infused her with overabundance of God's Grace.

Saving her from original sin.
Why?
Because Jesus is an obedient Jew that needed an undefile Body to sacrifice for you and I.

God Saved her at her conception. That's why She alone is addressed by title by an angel not name. No else in the Bible. Go head and verify it.

Jesus follows God's commands.
since Mary body is only body Jesus will partake, it has to conceived without sin as Adam and Eve.
---Nicole_Lacey on 6/19/17


Seems the discussion started before the defining.

The Doctrine of Immaculate Conception is that Mary was born without sin. Because all who are born are guilty of sin at birth. Referred to as Original sin. If Memory serves me. Augustine was the great defender of this.

He stated that unbaptized babies went to eternal hell.

I am always finding things to like about the Orthodox churches.

Thank you for your points Cluny.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 6/19/17


Cluny,

First, lets dialog like men and not be condescending ok?

Now tell me, as an Eastern Orthodox what is your clear def of this RCC Dogma?

Were you RCC before converting to EOC?
---john9346 on 6/19/17


\\Because how many times you ask this question and when those state their disapproval and why you will attack there position sounds like a defense. \\

Remember that the way things sound to you may not be reality.

It is one thing to disapprove of the doctrine of the IC. It's quite another to condemn something that doctrine does NOT say.

Do you get it, john?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/18/17


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cluny:

"Where did you get the idea that I was defending it?"

Because how many times you ask this question and when those state their disapproval and why you will attack there position sounds like a defense.

"Do you what the doctrine actually says?"

I do and I have answered your question prior now tell me why are you an "Eastern Orthodox." so concern with this RCC Dogma that its development Eastern Orthodox find "Heretical."
---john9346 on 6/17/17


"The Orthodox Church calls Mary all-holy, immaculate, free from actual sin. The Orthodox Church has never made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter of the Immaculate Conception. In the past, individual Orthodox theologians have made statements that, if not definitively affirming the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception, at any rate closely approach it. But since 1854, the great majority of Orthodox reject it as necessary, as implying a false understanding of original sin,"

The Orthodox Church, Timothy Ware Pg 259-260
---john9346 on 6/17/17


\\I find it very disingenuous of you being (Eastern Orthodox) seemly to defend this teaching...\\

Where did you get the idea that I was defending it?

I'm simply asking if people know what it really says. Can you grasp the difference between what I say and of what you're accusing me?

Do you what the doctrine actually says? If so, please answer.

If you don't know, admit it.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/17/17


Cluny,

I find it very disingenuous of you being (Eastern Orthodox) seemly to defend this teaching of which the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't have full agreement of belief on and its development is heretical from EOC View.

How about Theosis, Apophatic Theology, and the denial of Original Sin these are the real teachings if you are really and truly Eastern Orthodox you believe why not defend these doctrines??
---john9346 on 6/16/17


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