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What Is Apophtatic Theology

I've been asked about apophtatic theology.

This is simply saying what God is NOT.

For example, while the Bible uses masculine terms to describe God, He is beyond how maleness is expressed in this fallen world. (Don't let the pretty boys on bicycles fool you.)

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 ---Cluny on 7/6/17
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Do we determine Gods words by "Original" manuscripts. Languages or scholars?
Is final authority, degrees, professors or seminaries?
No scholar has more authority than you. You have the manifold wisdom of God! Eph 3:10
Scripture is able to make you wise - 2 Tim 3:15
Study the Word "rightly divided"
---michael_e on 7/20/17


\\What I find fascinating, is the reaction of KJV supporters when they find out that the Textus Receptus/LXX/Septuagint was derived from "copies" and not from an original MSS.\\

Whoever said otherwise? I knew that back in Baptist Sunday School before I reached the 7th grade.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/17


Dear Jerry. No. You didn't hurt my feelings. On some discussion sites I am a Satan following false teaching the doctrine of demons as a cultist. Knowing Jesus is correct I ignore them.

Your snowflake comment seemed general.

I am not leftist. I am middle of the road.

But one important main point. We are a minority. If we don't stand up for minority people to defend the rights of all. Are we not working against ourselves. You know that the Government will turn against us. Trump works to make that easy.

Love thy neighbor is especially to poor and persecuted. All who are persecuted we need to help.

Agape
---Samuelbb7 on 7/19/17


If you don't have an original Greek or Hebrew MSS, how do you know that what you call "my Bible" is accurate?
---Cluny on 7/18/17

What I find fascinating, is the reaction of KJV supporters when they find out that the Textus Receptus/LXX/Septuagint was derived from "copies" and not from an original MSS.

It nearly blows their mind.

What is also fascinating is when they learn that the reference of Jesus to a "jot or tittle" is about the practice of Scribes copying the Scrolls of the Tanakh to continue and preserve them and it is this practice that the church fathers patterned their copying of MSS after.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/19/17


\\The secret that most know but no one talks about is that there is not a single original writing from any apostle, prophet, or tablet of stone exists today. \\

What's so secret about it? I hear about it all the time, especially on here.

What is amazing is not that the surviving ancient MSS do not differ--they do--but that they are so much in agreement.

This issue was raised in St. Augustine's time, who said that different MSS and translations comment upon each other.

Jerry: If you don't have an original Greek or Hebrew MSS, how do you know that what you call "my Bible" is accurate?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/18/17




michael_e:

Google bible manuscripts and you should be able to find all you want to know about existing manuscripts.

The manuscripts have been copied many times, but despite this, and the slight differences between copies, the differences are surprisingly few. If one finds (say) a copy of a manuscript of the Gospel of John, it will be very close to identical to other existing manuscripts of the Gospel of John. As far as the Old Testament scriptures go, the Jews had very strict protocols for copying scripture. They counted the number of copies of every letter on every page, and double-checked that count on each copy. Copies in which even a single letter did not add up were destroyed as unreliable.
---StrongAxe on 7/18/17


Jerry6593:

You wrote: Sometimes overthinking a plain "thus saith the Lord" can lead to erroneous conclusions, as is the case with most higher criticism.

My position is not that "Spirit is feminine in Hebrew. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is a woman". Rather, it is that "Spirit is feminine in Hebrew. Therefore, absence any other definitive evidence, it is premature to say that the Holy Spirit is a man". I.e. that it is wrong for OTHERS to overthink it.

This is the same as my argument about the day length in Genesis 1 - I'm not saying it definitely isn't 24 hours, merely that the Bible does not dogmatically assert that it is.
---StrongAxe on 7/18/17


Apparently, there are some here that have "copies" of the originals, that are "fairly" accurate. Could you share these "copies"?
The secret that most know but no one talks about is that there is not a single original writing from any apostle, prophet, or tablet of stone exists today. How many times have the "copies been copied?
---michael_e on 7/18/17


Sam: When did I call you a snowflake? I was commenting on Cluny's "(Don't let the pretty boys on bicycles fool you.)" comment (which I find humorous). Do you think he was referring to you? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but maybe you should reconsider your leftist leanings, as they are in conflict with our Biblical beliefs.



ax: Sometimes overthinking a plain "thus saith the Lord" can lead to erroneous conclusions, as is the case with most higher criticism.


---Jerry6593 on 7/18/17


Few things have caused more damage in churches than when pastors say things like:
---michael_e on 7/17/17

I must disagree.

The most damage has been caused by people not searching the Scriptures for themselves.

When I study the Scriptures, their truth form a protective screen around my brain that error cannot penetrate. No matter how nicely wrapped the error is, it hits the truth screen and it stops dead.

People without this screen can easily be influenced and persuaded by false teachers of all kinds.

Saying we have no definitive manuscripts is the start of the same dangerous path that led Bart Erhman into error.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/18/17




michael_e:

While we no longer have original manuscripts, we DO have copies that are fairly close. When we rely on those copies in the original languages, it's true we rely on the faithfulness of those copies, and our understanding of the languages involved.

However, when we rely on modern translations (like KJV - a 400 year old translation of documents thousands of years older), we rely on those PLUS the biases of the translators.

When you translate from one language to another, there is always some information loss. For example, since English is a language almost without gender (i.e. it now exists only on 3rd person singular pronouns and nowhere else), most gender information from original sources is lost.
---StrongAxe on 7/17/17


Jerry I am far from a snowflake. Born in 1952 in a poor neighborhood. In the Southeast side of Houston, Texas. I know what being hit and hitting others feels like.

But I by the Grace of GOD became a Christian. Jesus gave the Commandment to love everyone. You don't seem to do that. As a Seventh day Adventist I am to love and care for all people. Especially the poor.

You in your words don't convey love or caring.

Let us look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Read the SOP.

GOD is love.
---Samuelbb7 on 7/17/17


Few things have caused more damage in churches than when pastors say things like:
In the originals, the word here really means_____
The Greek word for this is______
A better rending of the originals would be_____
Churchgoers have heard these sayings for so long they have now become calloused to it! This is a real problem.

There are no originals, to compare your Bible to.
When the pastor says, in the originals, What he said was misleading.
---michael_e on 7/17/17


Jerry6593:

You wrote: First of all, there is NO extant original Greek and Hebrew text.

No, but there are many copies that are fairly reliable.

I am saying however that the Textus Receptus of the KJV is MUCH MORE RELIABLE than the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus or Latin Vulgate source of the more modern translations. I thought you knew that.

So, tell us, what gender is "Holy Spirit" in the Textus Receptus?
---StrongAxe on 7/16/17


Cluny: "Jerry, are you saying that your English translation of the Bible is more authoritative than the original Greek and Hebrew texts?"

First of all, there is NO extant original Greek and Hebrew text. I am saying however that the Textus Receptus of the KJV is MUCH MORE RELIABLE than the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus or Latin Vulgate source of the more modern translations. I thought you knew that.


---Jerry6593 on 7/16/17


\\My Bible says:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF, but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE speak: and HE will shew you things to come.

Seems pretty clear to me.

(Don't let the feminist snowflakes fool you.)\\

Jerry, are you saying that your English translation of the Bible is more authoritative than the original Greek and Hebrew texts?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/14/17


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Cluny:

You wrote: Then why in Greek is "Agio Pnevmati" neuter?

Because different languages use different genders for the same word. Spirit is feminine in Hebrew, neuter in Greek. In German, "The table [she] is flat. The girl [it] is beautiful." because of grammatical rules.


Jerry6593:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth, is come...

Spirit is neuter in Greek. English translators changed it to masculine, but that is the bias of the translators, NOT of the original scripture. Original beats translation every time. Do you ever read the originals when questions of translation arise?
---StrongAxe on 7/14/17


Seems pretty clear to me.
---Jerry6593 on 7/14/17

why in Greek is "Agio Pnevmati" neuter?
---Cluny on 7/13/17

First, Jerry. As Cluny can attest, the word "He" in John 16:13 denoting the Holy Spirit is not in the Greek text. A form of the pronoun "ekeinos" is included which refers to the noun "pneuma" which Cluny rightly says is neuter. Therefore, the pronoun could rightly be rendered "he" or "she".

Second, Cluny, the Greek language renders the HS as neuter. The Syriac versions render the HS as feminine. "Ruach" in Hebrew is feminine, and the HS in Latin, is definitely masculine. I believe our God is neither masculine or feminine but contains both.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/14/17


My Bible says:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE will guide you into all truth: for HE shall not speak of HIMSELF, but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall HE speak: and HE will shew you things to come.

Seems pretty clear to me.

(Don't let the feminist snowflakes fool you.)



---Jerry6593 on 7/14/17


\\Ruach Ha Kodesh is the third person in the trinity and the Holy Spirit is feminine. \\

Then why in Greek is "Agio Pnevmati" neuter?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/13/17


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In Hebrew, ruach (wind or spirit) is ALWAYS feminine. ---StrongAxe on 7/11/17

Thank you for stating this.

We, the Body of Christ, have lost track of who our God is.

If God created them "male and female" and we were created in God's image, there MUST be femininity in our God. Why are we so shocked to see or admit it?

Femininity is in our God and His word confirms it.

Ruach Ha Kodesh is the third person in the trinity and the Holy Spirit is feminine.

The Holy Spirit is the creative force in our God. She is the creative force behind all music, all art, all beauty, every good thing that we think man has created, Our God is the originator.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/12/17


john9346:

The Word of God no where states that the Blesses Holy Spirit is a female

In Hebrew, ruach (wind or spirit) is ALWAYS feminine. Look at ANY OT verse.
E.g. Genesis 1:2 "... and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Hebrew: "veruach (and [the] spirit of) elohim (God) marhefet (SHE moved) al-pnei (before, lit. '
to [the] face of') hamayim (the waters)".

the Lord God doesn't have a womb

God is frequently depicted as "giving birth". Males beget. Females give birth, and only with a womb.

Sir, with the utmost respect to you, do you really read the Word of God??

Yes, I do. Have YOU ever read it in the ORIGINAL languages?
---StrongAxe on 7/11/17


\\The Word of God no where states that the Blesses Holy Spirit is a female how blasphemous\\

Actually, in Greek, Holy Spirit/Ghose is NEUTER.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/11/17


strongaxe:

Sir, If you read the verses, the verses are not, "Direct." is identifying God, its describeing an action.

For example, if you and I were playing football and I said to you, "You throw like a girl." am I saying your a woman of course not. I am saying the act or action of you throwing is an act of a girl throwing a football but i'm not at all saying your a woman, but the action is.

The Word of God no where states that the Blesses Holy Spirit is a female how blasphemous... And the Lord God doesn't have a womb...

Sir, with the utmost respect to you, do you really read the Word of God??
---john9346 on 7/10/17


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john9346:

Many languages (such as Hebrew and French) totally lack a neuter gender, and even objects have a gender. In all such languages that I know of (even English), the accepted practice is that when referring to a group of people of mixed gender or a group or individual of unknown gender, the masculine is always used. Thus, "she" is always feminine, but "he" can be either (e.g. "The driver of a vehicle must fasten his seatbelt").

God is sometimes referred to in a feminine context (Mt 23:37, Lk 13:34). The Holy Spirit has feminine gender. God has a womb and gives birth.

God says "I am not a man, that I should lie" but never says "I am not a woman" (per blog topic).
---StrongAxe on 7/10/17


All of the names of God, Yahweh or Jehovah, Adonai, Elohim, Yehoshua, Iesous, Kurios, and theh'-os are masculine.

These are, "Direct." names of God...
---john9346 on 7/9/17


faithforfaith states, ""NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE" means NO GENDER."

Gal 3:28 is speaking of men and women having equality in salvation and not denying the uniqueness of men and women. Also this is not addressing whether God is male.

faithforfaith states, "...SPIRITS have no gender.""

Not according to the Word of God, see, Num 23:19, Eze 1:26, and Col 2:9, and Jn 14:9.

Its fallacious to assert that spirits cant be male nor female.

Isa 62 is to Israel see vs 1.

Rev 2 and 3 doesn't address whehter God is a man or not its addressing the problems of those churches and the promises to those who persever...

Isa 62:2 is to Israel see vs 1.
---john9346 on 7/8/17


"NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE" means NO GENDER.

...SPIRITS have no gender.

There are a lot of REAL truths to be discovered about scripture, but if you can't accept this without arguing, you will never know the "NEW NAME" or any other truth (your choice).


Isa 62:2 and you shall be called by a new name


Rev 2:17 with a new name

Rev 3:12 and my own new name.
---faithforfaith on 7/8/17


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Just because God is an Eternal Spiritual Being it is an error to say he has no, "Gender." since the Word of God from Gen-Rev is clear when depicting God as male.

The Word of God when directly describing God identifies him as male never female.

When feminine terminology is used it is in making a comparison, but personal direct descriptions of Yahweh is male.
---john9346 on 7/7/17


WE HUMAN BEINGS with physical bodies think and speak in terms of GENDER, but "spirit" has no gender (as in Galatians 3:28, "neither male nor female").

Since God is SPIRIT, He has no gender.

It's simply that God created MANKIND (humanity) and He specifies that He created THEM both male and female.

The traditional teachings taught in Sunday school and by scholars have not educated us properly about scripture.
---faithforfaith on 7/7/17


Please understand It's impossible to adeequately treat a matter upon which books have been written in the 50 words allowed to make an initial post here.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/6/17


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