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Catholic Churches And Pope

Did Catholic churches always follow the Pope? I read somewhere on the history of the Catholic Church that in the beginning the Pope was not the head of the church. Is this true?

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The OT prophesies say that the Messiah will restore the Davidic Kingdom of Israel. In the DKI, the King appoints a Prime Minister, who is 2nd in command and carries authority that the King gave to him. In Matthew 16, Jesus is quoting from Isaish 22, where a Prime Minister is installed. Jesus is the King, Peter was the 1st Prime Minister (now Benedict is). The term Pope was invented later for this office that Jesus established.
---Greyrider on 12/11/07


**I read somewhere on the history of the Catholic Church that in the beginning the Pope was not the head of the church. Is this true?**

According to numerous citations in the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, not the pope.
---Jack on 10/29/07


I must confess Lisas, Your starting to get to me. I went before the Lord and you make a lot of sense. I know Jesus is the way. Mary Ann
---Catholic on 3/9/07


Lisas The only sword I posess is the Body & Blood of Christ you will have to do Battle with Him.Sorry,I communicate HIS LOVE & share it with those who so desire .Call it by whatever name you desire But I will not displease my God of love,to quench your thirst.You MUST CHANGE if you desire PEACE.
---Emcee on 3/3/07


AlanUK..., it might interest you to know that recently an Anglican priest was ordained as a Catholic priest. A special dispensation was granted to allow him to remain a priest in the RCC, while being married with children. Currently in my own church, a Presbyterian minister has been co-serving with our Catholic priest - both in our church and his own across the street. Now that he is retiring from ministry, he will be attending our church for the next couple of years.
---lorra8574 on 3/3/07




Lisas if Emcee would be willing, why not 'go to battle' through mail and not the blogs?
Emcee shouldn't have to defend himself when not only you, but MANY others will interupt his thoughts with even more questions and accusations? Just trying to keep the peace sis! I love you both.
---NVBarbara on 3/3/07


Emcee, I do love you but now that I said that you better take your swords out because I haven't stopped discusing Salvation and Justification by faith in Christ alone. I will never stop, so be prepared to bring your Vatican 1 and 2 so that we can both go on the battle field, but I am bring one Sword, The Word of God. See you Monday on the battle field. I'll give you a break for the weekend.
---Lisas on 3/3/07


Emcee, may I just say how much I admire your kindness and sweet spirit. I feel so blessed that we have become friends, and brother and sister.(Dad & daughter :-) Our faith may be a bit different, but we worship the same Jesus and if we never meet in this life, I'm sure we will in the next! GBY!
---NVBarbara on 3/2/07


Helen ::Please dont GO.if you do you are going for the wrong Reasons.You are a child of God same as we all are wayward but still his Children .Did he not say Heaven is made of such as these.Stay & try to learn what is being said, God Loves you more than you know with all sincerity I ask you, Do not leave for if you do THEN YOU will be lost I have chided you more than anyone on this forum,it was done out of Love the love of Jesus which I again invite you to participate in.Love you child .
---Emcee on 3/2/07


Joey ::BRAT in Ukraine is BROTHER Good bye Joey.Charity is Love.
---Emcee on 3/2/07




Love is not easily offended. Everybody, wave goodbye to Helen.
---joey on 3/2/07


Sister Helen, I had to say what I said because it bothered my Spirit very much only on my own behalf. I was speaking only from my heart to what I felt I was doing. I don't want to see you leave either or stop answering. You have many great points and sometimes God has a reason for you to answer for the benefit of someone. You and I don't know what God is going to do with His Word when we give it, all we can do is give it and then it's in His hands.
---Lisas on 3/2/07


2. I try never to take sides or belong to a group just because they agree with me becuase Christianity has so many topics to discuss that one does not make us all a group. I some times have answered with a passion so great that in between my words, as I read back, see something that is not of God together with God's word. The Spirit convicts me of what I have done and it carries a weight that I have to let go. Many here speak on behalf of Christ on one hand, and in the other, curse.
---Lisas on 3/2/07


3. I myself been a former Catholic and after studying the reform doctrines and why it happened, I want to answer because I lived as a Catholic. They cannot tell me different because I do know. Yet, it wasn't because of anyone that I left, it was because of Christ coming into my life that I saw the truth. We cannot make any Catholic, or for that matter anyone change, it has to come from God. His Word only, and only if God draws them to Him. I forget many times and I fall just as anyone.
---Lisas on 3/2/07


4. I ask you too sister Helen to forgive me. I know that we don't agree on some things but do agree with many others. Keep your work going, do it for the right reason, and that goes for me too. Love you,
---Lisas on 3/2/07


I cannot believe this all happened. I'm out of here.
---Helen_5378 on 3/2/07


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if they did so what? thats how they want to do things in their own way so why do you want to stir things around. yes, it sounds like stirring...if the pope was nt head of the church, so what? I dont like bloggers on this site blogging stirring questions to rub a church down...thats how they want to do things n they believe in it so leave it be. they dont bother u some?
---jana on 3/2/07


Lisas, I'm not RC, but I grew up in the RCC and my late Mom was the church organist. I have read the hurtful words being thrown around, although I can't recall you saying anything bitter to me. I love you too,just as I love Emcee, John, Elder, Eloy,Alan, Pharisee..you get my drift, I love all the bloggers, or I'm letting God love them thru me. I'm pretty thick skinned, often we just have to look over some things & let them go, even if we disagree.I ask for forgivness if I have hurt anyone, peace Sis.
---NVBarbara on 3/2/07


AlanUK, sorry if I missed a digit, but yes I know a great deal of Reformation history. FYI, Henry VIII (8) was given the title Defender of the Faith by the Pope for his strong and courageous defence of the Roman Catholic Faith against the forces of the Reformation. The king only changed his mind when the Pope refused to allow the king to divorce and remarry.
---lorra8574 on 3/1/07


AlanUK part 2: The king in retaliation against the Pope forced all clergy in his kingdom to denounce the Pope and acknowledge the King as the head of the Church in England. Those who refused were arrested and or executed. It was after this brutal separation from the RCC that the Church in England started to drift towards the Protestant theology, but not completely, many RCC traditions are still in place.
---lorra8574 on 3/1/07


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Lisas ::You have indeed touched my heart I too am sorry if I caused you pain.I am a lover not a fighter.
---Emcee on 3/1/07


Alan :: My friend never give up hope the wheels of destiny grind slowly,but surely. where theres a will theres a way & I do believe once the scales of blindness are removed Jesus who loves us all equally & dearly WILL effect a change .If we implore He WILL, & if we do HIS WILL.May be not in our generation but,the important thing is we start to be one Holy Catholic & Apostolic Family.The Jigsaw puzzle is His & we are the pieces.
---Emcee on 3/1/07


Finally, somebody is walking, talking, writing, in love. Thank you. LISAS===You are right, Lets not make the devil happy. Only God.
---catherine on 3/1/07


Very, very hurtful remarks have been said here and in many other blogs. I want to apologize on behalf of my statements if they were hurtful to Emcee or anyone that is Catholic. I have seen this get out of hand just as NVbarbara saw it get out of hand. All it does is feed the enemy with more ammo against us all. I heard what was said to Ed on another blog and I think it is very wrong. The intentions we began with have just dissappeared. Now they are all pride and anger against each other.
---Lisas on 3/1/07


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2. I would also like to say that I will only discus Scripture from now on on doctrines, and do my best to not bring out the history of the church. It's sometimes hard because in anwsering we have to bring out the time and what was happening, also our past in the church, but in regards to all of the Catholics out there, please forgive me. Today I got on line I wanted to leave the website, and it was very wrong to hurt someone's spirit.
---Lisas on 3/1/07


Sister NVbarbara, please forgive me too, if I hurt you in anyway. I do love you and of course Emcee and others. I am sorry your Spirit was hurt by all this. I will do my best to be more careful how I answer you and of course Emcee and others. God bless you sister Barbara for bringing it to my attention, and blessing to your family too,
---Lisas on 3/1/07


Boy, this place is a real dump.
Hey, don't dump that in my lap.
Did she dump you or did you dump her?

If you see me driving south on the highway with my head and my dog, Buddy, hanging out the windows, you'll know we're returning from a dump run. Buddy's never met a tire he didn't like.

We always hurt the ones we love. And that stinks worse than any tire Buddy rolls around on at the dump.
---Rural_Cafe on 3/1/07


Emcee ... I don't see the possibility of an Anglican/RCC reunion.
Anglicans see too much wrong (in their eyes) with RCC doctrine and practice and teaching. Not evil, as some would say, but misguided and/or unnecessary.
However, although these things which separate us are serious issues, they should not be so great as to prevent us calling each other "brother Christians"
---alanUKquent64534 on 3/1/07


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Sue - I know what I was thinking when I wrote my post. Your comment on my salvation is outright hurtful. Bless you.
---Helen_5378 on 2/28/07


Alan of UK::#1points to all diferences between AG & RCC.If the bible which is Gods unchangeable word Matt16:17-19.Do you hope the RCC has the authority to effect a change?#2The reformation was more polital Than spiritual the causes of self wealth & Royal technacalities were just a sun screen because the whole of Europe & France played a major role,they viewed the Catholic Crurch as a force to be reckoned with & not as a purely spiritual church for humanity.
---Emcee on 2/28/07


Alan of UK::#1points to all diferences between AG & RCC.If the bible which is Gods unchangeable word Matt16:17-19.Do you hope the RCC has the authority to effect a change?#2The reformation was more polital Than spiritual the causes of self wealth & Royal technacalities were just a sun screen because the whole of Europe & France played a major role,they viewed the Catholic Crurch as a force to be reckoned with & not as a purely spiritual church for humanity.
---Emcee on 2/28/07


Your remarks did not bother my flesh,its pretty thick. It was MY spirit and very soul that was in question.
Enuf said!
---NVBarbara on 2/28/07


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Helen the way you twist words would be funny if not so pathetic.
your accusations sure seemed to be directed straight at nvbarb, no need to try to change what you have already posted. It makes me curious about your salvation, but that is not my concern, i hope its yours!
---Sue on 2/28/07


Lorra ... How much do you really know of the Reformation? There is plenty of evidence that the church in England would have joined the reforation movement and rejected the authority of Rome even if it had not been for the kings wish for a divorce. It was in fact more to do with the outrageous amount of wealth being accummulated by Rome.
And by the way it was Henry 8 not 7
The Anglican church is Catholic, but not Roman
---alanUKquent64534 on 2/28/07


Emcee ... Indeed there is a movement to try to reunite the Anglican churcxh and the RCC.
I can see good in closer cooperation, but I just cannot see Anglicans accepting the Pope as head, when there are so many things they see as wrong about the RCC ... infallibility, Immaculate Conception of Mary herself, Assumption, need to confess to priest, contraception issues, celibacy of priests, and much more ... which most Anglicans would just not accept
---alanUKquent64534 on 2/28/07


Emcee # 2 I beleive the RCC is mistaken on these issues, and there are no doubt things about Anglican doctrine which may be wrong (only God knows the full Truth, not any of us, nor the Pope)
Tell me this (and both Anglican RCC are at fault in this) ... does the physical and temporal glory of the vatican and our cahedrals really reflect the proper use of the resources given to us by God. Do they help us to "love our neighbour"?
---alanUKquent64534 on 2/28/07


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NVBarbara - (Re my words "If you cannot see it then you have left the Cross, which in effect means you have left Jesus") -- On reading that now, I see how you thought I was directing it at you, which I already have stated that I was not. It was meant for every Christian. I should have worded it "If anyone cannot see it, they they have left the Cross, which in effect means they have left Jesus". The flesh gets offended easily. Bless you.
---Helen_5378 on 2/28/07


NVBarbara - Before I head off to bed to get some much needed sleep -- I do not question your salvation. Period.
---Helen_5378 on 2/28/07


NVBarbara - ("Do us both a favor and don't direct any more questions to me") -- Please forgive me ok.
---Helen_5378 on 2/28/07


NVBarbara- If people are being drawn to man, then it is a false gospel.If people are being drawn to the Cross of Christ and that alone, then the message is of God. Tell me where in the Bible did Jesus get up and preach to the crowds and throw some funnies in with it? You won't find it. Jesse Duplantis is part of the Apostate Church. If you cannot see it, then you have left the Cross, which in effect means you have left Jesus. The salvation of the human soul is a serious matter.
Helen_5378 on 2/20/07
---NVBarbara on 2/28/07


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2. Helen if these comments are not questioning my salvation I can't imagine what else you meant. Do us both a favor and don't direct any more questions to me.
Thank you.
---NVBarbara on 2/28/07


AlanUK... The Lutheran Church is not a Catholic Church although they are in dialogue with the RCC, and while the Anglican Church retains much of its Catholic flavour, it was forced into existance by Henry VII when the Pope refused to allow the lusty king the right to trade his wife in for a younger model. Were it not for that fact, the Anglican Church would not exist, and the Church of England would be part of the Roman Catholic Church.
---lorra8574 on 2/27/07


No Helen I did not misread your blog, further you DID question my salvation on another blog. If and when I can find the specific blog of yours I will post it here.
---NVBarbara on 2/27/07


Jesus Christ is the head of the Christian Church...those who are shepherds must become servants; this is true Christianity.
---meag5767 on 2/27/07


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Catherine ::Poor Judith you did pull her down a peg .sounds like Eve who bossed Adam into eating the apple or else!! & see where that landed her into a lot of Hot water.
---Emcee on 2/27/07


Judith==The ones that enjoys bossing people around are the ones that needs for God to bring them DOWN. DOWN. And believe me, He will. Everyone, out there needs to know. Just because you are the boss does not give you the right to be BOSSY. [What goes up and come down,quickly] Not any of us are so great. If you think you are, Boy, do I feel sorry for YOU.
---catherine on 2/27/07


Alan of UK::If the Anglican & the Lutheran are still Catholic then why is there a move to REUNITE them with The RCC.which I see as good,But this can only happen if the acceptance of Matt16:17-19 is accepted by them Which shows that tendancy.The reformation should never have taken place as it weakened the link of Catholisism but that is JMHO & so much water under the Bridge.
---Emcee on 2/27/07


No the keys were not given to Peter but to a goat which happened to be standing in the vicinity.
---caring on 2/27/07


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There are a few who like to boss/bully everyone else around. Pipe down, do this, do that. Listen to ME. I know what I'm talking about. There are cliques, just like high school. If the leaders of the pack can't command the attention, center stage, then it's time to say, if you don't know what you're talking about, it would be better for you to shut-up. Jealousy comes to mind.
---Judith on 2/27/07


laura8574.The keys to bind and loose on earth and in heaven were not only given to Peter. In Matt18:18 we see that the entire Church has this authority.
---john on 2/27/07


Lorra ... The churches which are now Lutheran and Anglican sprang from the earlier catholic church.
Anglicans maintain the core Catholic beliefs, but because of Roman add-ons, broke away at the time of the Reformation.
They remain catholic. The Roman church does not say it is lord over them.
---alanUKquent64534 on 2/27/07


AlanUK..., no, if the Anglican Church whichs to adopt an informal interpretation for their creed, that is their business. But, the Pope is over the entire Catholic Church, this officially includes numerious Catholic branches, including the Ukrainian Catholics, Greek Catholics, Russian Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Chinese Catholics and a variety of others. Not to be confused with similar Orthodox churches.
---lorra8574 on 2/26/07


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NVBarbara - You have implored us on more than one Blog to be peaceful. Well, how come you are rising up against me? You have mis-read my Blog. I have never even thought that you might not be saved. :)
---Helen_5378 on 2/26/07


Lorra ... You are wrong when you say "the Pope is over the entire Catholic Church, not just the RCC"
The Anglican Church has in it's creed the belief in the Holy Catholic Church" Thus it claims to be part of the universal body of beleivers.
BUT, there is still in the Church of England's articles of faith reference to the BLACK bishop of Rome. The CofE owes no allegiance to the Pope whatsoever.
---alanUKquent64534 on 2/26/07


If the Catholics are having to come here to defend themselves and their beliefs, I doubt that its the RCs who post the leading questions. To that I must add that they are NOT unbelievers. We should be loving the UNBELIEVERS into the Kingdom. Chiding and pointing fingers does nothing to further the Kingdom.
Helen, you have attacked me and questioned my salvation. With you its just "Me and Thee, and sometimes I wonder about Thee!" How do we know if YOU are a believer?
---NVBarbara on 2/26/07


I appreciate that,Helen 5378. I do seem to get alot of uprising. I do not pay any attention really, as to whom is doing it. When someone is being attacked unfairly I shall defend, friend or foe.
---catherine on 2/26/07


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NVBarbara - There is always going to be some sort of uprising when the truth is told to unbelievers. Catherine is right, it is the unbelievers that get their backs up, not the believers.
---Helen_5378 on 2/25/07


yes its a matter of history that many celebrations were mixed with pagan ones so people would accept christianity.
---tom2 on 2/25/07


Tom2, the Pope is over the entire Catholic Church, not just the RCC. Roman refers to geographic location, not Pagan Rome. The Roman or Latin Rite of the Church does have some differences in general practice, but the both the Roman and Eastern Rite Churches hold the same doctrines. And, the change was using the term Pope for the Bishop of Rome, but we Catholics have always followed the Bishop of Rome since Peter founded that Bishoprik. The current Pope is still the Bishop of Rome.
---lorra8574 on 2/25/07


I simply refuse to believe that it is Born-Again Men and Women of God that is doing all of the bickering on these blogs. God would deal with them, no doubt. No, I am sure that it is the UNbelievers that is the culprits. And all in the name of God. Makes me SICK.
---catherine on 2/25/07


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As long as people are going to obey Satan and ignore God, you are going to have bite-biting, arguments, and the likes. It all stinks to God. Putting people down and their religions I can promise you that GOD HATES IT. Don't think that you are doing God a favior.
---catherine on 2/25/07


What has been accomplished here? It saddens me, and I know it must sadden God to see all the arguments and backbiting.
TOO many blogs like this one. Discuss, but please stop the judging and dissent. I love you all.
---NVBarbara on 2/24/07


lorra I appreciate your post but I alrerady knew it was jesus,s church,he has ownership of all denominations cause he has ownership of all people ultimately.the question was about popes.
---tom2 on 2/23/07


Darlene 1, see 1 Peter 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

Babylon was a real place, but Peter was never anywhere near it. Babylon was a code name (See Revelations) for Rome. Peter and Paul were credited by all the early Church writers as having founded the Church in Rome, and Peter was bishop of Rome. Before the end of the first century, the Bishop of Rome was acknowledged as the authority over the Christian Church.
---lorra8574 on 2/23/07


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Gail, Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, the nature of the keys are described to us in Isaiah 22:22. The Keys represent an office which is continuous within a Kingdom. Peter alone received the keys, and only his duly appointed successors would be entrusted with them. Jesus instructed Peter to feed His sheep, we can assume this of others, but ONLY Peter is given this task directly by Peter. Peter is strengthened by Jesus (I gave references for all of this previously).
---lorra8574 on 2/23/07


Tom 2, Jesus Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, including the RCC. The Pope is under Christ and governs the entire Catholic Church, both Latin (Roman) and Eastern Rites. We use RCC only to differentiate ourselves from non-Catholic Christians who have finally figured out that Catholic is not a dirty word and have started using it.
---lorra8574 on 2/23/07


** Jack - I clearly remember when I was in the RCC that the priest would say sit down and I would, stand up and I would. Thinking on that now, it was awful. The whole congregation immediately did what the priest said to do.**

In my experience as a Baptist and in visiting Pentecostal and other churches, the pastor or song leader would tell people to stand up and sit down. The whole congregation did immediately what the person told them to do.

Is there any real difference? I see none.
---Jack on 2/23/07


Part 2:

Helen, you can't have it both ways.

If it's witchcraft and mind control in a Catholic church, then it's witchcraft and mind control in a Protestant church.

To say otherwise is a double standard: "diverse weights and measures" as Proverbs 20:10 puts it, which is an ABOMINATION in God's sight.
---Jack on 2/23/07


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Jack, the Pope is certainly not the vicar of Christ. Christ needs no Vicar. All a Vicar is, is a money collector. You won't fool any one with you seething lies from the Catholic church, trying to pull souls down with your churches' idolitary. Your not fooling anybody but another Catholic. I could tell you some proven things about your church that you won't like.
---mWpnGwRz on 2/22/07


A lot of people have been leaving the Catholic Church, especially since the early 80's. There has been a big shift towards the truth. The Holy Spirit is moving quickly now, I believe the end is closer than ever. God want's your heart not formalities, and false holiness.
---Bernard on 2/22/07


actually by cannon law i believe that within the catholc church the bishops are actually designated as apostles,making them the leaders.the problem with the catholic church is the word roman before its name,and that historically is a long issue.pagan celebration inter mixed with christian doctrine and the like, and many many more issues.
---tom2 on 2/22/07


Peter wasn't in Rome, he is called first Pope by the tradition of RCC which holds no solid evidence to prove beliefs. When Jesus said upon this Rock I build my church he was talking about Himself,the doctrine that He brought to the world. It would have been against God to give Peter that position when Jesus is God's Son and choosen to do exactly that,built the Kingdom of God. It is sacrilegious to say any common man received that honor meant for Christ. Christ is the head of all Christians,not just RCC.
---Darlene_1 on 2/22/07


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actually it was the first 31.
---tom2 on 2/22/07


Jack - I clearly remember when I was in the RCC that the priest would say sit down and I would, stand up and I would. Thinking on that now, it was awful. The whole congregation immediately did what the priest said to do. That is very very different from the normal sit, stand, raising of hands etc. It is mind control, which is witchcraft.
---Helen_5378 on 2/22/07


**Do you think He cares if women have their heads covered? The stand ups, sits downs, kneel downs, bows completed at the appropriate times? **

Well, Jesus inspired St. Paul to instruct women to cover their heads; after all it's in the Bible.

Protestants, and especially pop-evangelicals, never stand up, sit down, hold up their hands, or anything like that, do they?
---Jack on 2/22/07


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