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Rapture Before Great Battle

"In the OT God was never referred to as the FATHER...None of the Prophets called Him Father..." -kathr4453 on 11/9/09 "But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8 ASV "For thou art our Father...our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name." Isaiah 63:16 ASV "Thou hast seen how that Jehovah thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went..." Deut. 1:31 ASV

Signs Of A False Prophet
	Cluny, Why do you not answer the question...asked about 4 times now? Are all of these notable leaders, 'fathers' and 'founders,' of their respective denominations... ...False Prophets?

Signs Of A False Prophet

"All you have done is to list INDIVIDUALS..." Cluny That's a difficult argument to make. It's impossible to remove the likes of John and Charles Wesley from the church they founded (Methodist) and to suggest that they didn't speak for that church. Or that Thomas Brightman didn't speak for the Presbyterian church that he is said to be one of the "Fathers" of. But again I'd ask you, were/are the Wesley's, the Catholic Cardinals, Martin Luther, prominent leaders of The Anglican Church, Assemblies of God, Mennonites, Calvary Chapel, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholic Apostolic Church, Baptist, Anabaptist, etc... ...False Prophets?

Signs Of A False Prophet

Cluny, Billy Graham's Prediction - 2 Cont. Therefore the leaders of the Baptist church, including prominent and outspoken ones like Billy Graham, Martin Luther King Jr., etc, are the voices of the denomination, whether you agree with them or not. Unless you can cite an example of refutation or censure from some Baptist Convention or organization regarding Grahams date setting, you are wrong. Perhaps you should write the Southern Baptist Convention and have them remove the 17' statue they have erected in his honor. (2006). But more importantly, in this thread's context, since his prediction obviously failed, is Billy Graham a false prophet?

Signs Of A False Prophet

Cluny, Billy Graham's Prediction - 1 Every Baptist church is autonomous. Every Baptist church, among other things, selects its pastoral leadership, determines its worship form, decides financial matters etc., without outside control or supervision. Baptist associations of churches, state and national conventions have no authority over a Baptist church. For any one of these organizations to attempt to exercise control over an individual church is to violate a basic Baptist conviction. Cont.

Signs Of A False Prophet
	Cluny, Are you suggesting that Billy Graham, the Wesley's, Haldeman and Nachemoser, etc. are/were "fringe sectarians?"

Signs Of A False Prophet

Unfulfilled Predictions - 1 1950- Baptist evangelist, Billy Graham told a group in Los Angeles: "Two years and its all going to be over."US News & World Report, Dec. 19,1994, p. 67 Precursor Baptist group "the Anabaptists of the 16 Century believed that the Millennium would occur in 1533." When Prophecy Fails, Fastener, Reckon and Schaefer, pg 7 Early 1900s- Dr. Isaac Haldeman, First Baptist Church Pastor, NY, predicted that before the Jews returned to Palestine to establish a Jewish State (happened 1948) the AntiChrist would appear. "The Scriptures teach that this [AntiChrist] will be the prime factor in bringing the Jews back..." Signs of the Times, Haldemen, pg 452

Signs Of A False Prophet

Unfulfilled Predictions - 2 Cardinal Nicholas de Cusa-1401-1464 (described as a Cardinal of great learning...possessing a thorough knowledge of the Greek, Latin and Hebrew languages, and a rare degree of eloquence." Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong, Volume II, page 611) held the end of the world would come in the year 1700. Catholic scholar, Arnald of Villanova predicted the AntiChrist would appear in 1378. Visions of The End, McGinn, page 147

Signs Of A False Prophet

Unfulfilled Predictions - 3 Methodist Church founders John and Charles Wesley wrote extensively on Bible prophecy. In the Notes on the Bible for Revelation chapter 10 we find: "The non-chronos here mentioned seems to begin in the year 800, (when Charles the Great instituted in the west a new line of emperors, or of 'many kings') to end in the year 1836, and to contain, among other things, the 'short time' of the third woe, the 'three times and a half' of the woman in the wilderness, and 'duration of the beast.'" This prediction which was to conclude in 1836 did not happen.

Signs Of A False Prophet

Unfulfilled Predictions - 4 Martin Luther- "For my part, I am sure that the day of judgment is just around the corner. It doesnt matter that we don't know the precise day...it is certain that time is now at an end." Reformation Principles and Practice, Dickens, pg 169 After his death leaders still claimed the nearness of the end. About 1584, Lutheran Adam Nachemoser wrote a large volume- Prognosticum Theologicum in which he predicted: "In 1590 the Gospel would be preached to all nations and a wonderful unity would be achieved...1635 seemed most likely." Prophecy and Gnosis- Apocalypticism in the Wake of the Lutheran Reformation, Robin Bruce Barnes, pg 64

Signs Of A False Prophet
	"Can you give an example? I doubt it." Cluny on 10/29/09 I'm always amused by people who make this sort of uninformed statement. My guess is that you've never researched this particular topic. How many examples would you like? Your call.

Signs Of A False Prophet
	"The true Prophets predictions will come to pass." amand6348 on 10/28/09 The majority of Christian denominations have predicted things (particularly "end time" predictions) that have not come to pass. Are they all false prophets?

Christmas Celebrates A Death

"Can you help?" alan8566_of_uk on 10/28/09 I suppose that would have to be answered by the "Someone" who made the claim. I'm not familiar with any evidence that the customs or practices associated with the Christmas celebration today actually commemorate Christ's death. Perhaps the statement is in reference to the commemoration of Christ's sacrificial death, the "Last supper" or "Lord's evening meal" that Christ himself established with the words "Do this in remembrance of me." The only "celebration" or commemoration that Christians were ever told to observe. Matthew 26.26-28, Mark 14.22-25, Luke 22.14, 1 Corinthians 11.20-34

Christmas Celebrates A Death

B I R T H D A Y S - 2 "Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast...on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born..." The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911, Vol. X, pg 709 "The celebration of the anniversary of an individual's birth, though customary among the ancients, was originally frowned upon by the Christians. Origen...assures his hearers that 'none of the saints can be found who ever held a feast or a banquet upon his birthday, or rejoiced on the day when his son or his daughter was born. But sinners rejoice and make merry on such days." William S. Walsh, Curiosities of Popular Customs

Christmas Celebrates A Death

B I R T H D A Y S - 3 "The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles...Although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date" Encyclopedia Americana 1991 "Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus-for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord's) was a custom of the pagans." Dr. John C. McCollister's The Christian Book of Why

Christmas Celebrates A Death

B I R T H D A Y S - 1 "The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope." The Lore of Birthdays, Ralph and Adelin Linton "The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity." Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981 reprint), by John McClintock and James Strong, Volume II, page 276.

Earth Billions Of Years Old
	"If you think you're being witty, you're half right." Cluny on 9/8/09 Classic. Thanks for the chuckle.

Nicea Creed of 325

Warwick, A biblical scholar? Hardly. That's a claim I've certainly never made. But it doesn't take one in this case And I'm not so irresponsible as to draw theological conclusions (and pontificate about them as if proven) without checking the facts. This is a grammatical issue discussed in the first few chapters of most Hebrew primers. It's irresponsible on your part not to check. But It's pride on your part to ignore that information once you've been made aware of it. Your myopic view of this causes you to ignore this simple truth: Not only does Aleph/Tav follow Elohim in Genesis, it follows or precedes 100s (if not thousands) of other nouns that are not Elohim. Did I mention Methuselah?

Nicea Creed of 325

Ruben, Dictionary of the Bible (1) "The {Trinity} belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of person and nature which are G[ree]k philosophical terms, actually the terms so not appear in the Bible. In the N[ew]T[estament] the Father is the God (G[ree]k ho theos), and Jesus is the Son of God (ho hyios tou theou)... Cont