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Is Jesus also God

If Jesus was God, why he prayed to God?

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How can God have a God? (1)

If Christ were part of a co-equal trinity, it could not be said that someone else would be HIS God. And yet:

1. "That with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 15:6, ASV

2. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
2 Corinthians 1:3, NIV

3. "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus..."
2 Corinthians 11:31, NIV

4. "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 1:17, NASV

5. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 1:3, NASV
---scott on 6/2/09

Yes. Wouldn't it be interesting sometime to hear a trinitarian say "Praise the Holy Spirit" or "Praise Jehovah or Yaweh." If the three are all absolutely equal and worthy of the same exact honor you would think we would hear that. Just an observation.
---scott on 3/18/08

Hey Scott,

Sorry to get back with you so late. Please forgive me, I failed to read down to your comments.

You are correct, much of the time we do place a great deal of emphasis on the work of the Son, and fail to realize the work of the Father and of the Holy Spirit.

The work of both the Father and the Holy Spirit is vital in the salvation of man.
The Father willed it (John 6:38) and the Holy Ghost applies the blood, washing us and making us a new creature (Titus 3:5).
---trey on 3/17/08

1. The First Adam was tempted when he was drawn away of his own lust (James 1:14) and was not deceived but sinned willfully (1 Tim 2:14).
---trey on 3/17/08

2. The Last Adam (Jesus Christ) being God was not tempted as the First Adam. James 1:13. You refer to Matt chapter 4. Christ was not tempted as you and I, as sinful man. The word tempted there means "tested". He was tested and proven to be above sin. God cannot sin. He does not possess a sin nature as we do. If Christ were only a man he couldnt have passed the test (Rom 3:10-18).
---trey on 3/17/08

3. You speak of Christ making a choice to be sinless. David, at mans best he is a filthy sinner Isa 64:6.
From conception we sin (Job 25:4, Psalms 51:5). When God looked down on mankind they were all sinners Psalms 14:2-3. God, therefore he sent forth is Son Isa 63:5, Isa 9:6.
Christs choice wasnt whether or not to sin, his choice was to come and die for his people Matt 26:42. If Christ was just a man he could not be the Savior.
---trey on 3/17/08

David - Concluded:

4. The First Adam was the creature:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
In other words, the First Adam was only a man.

The Last Adam, Jesus Christ, is the Creator:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,
---trey on 3/17/08

#3 Trey: Correspondingly, satan also put before the "last Adam", among other things, "all the Kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them" (KJ) (Matt.4:1-11). The questions I'd like to ask you are these. What choice did the 2 "Adams" have to make? If the "last Adam" was 'fully God and fully man', why did satan try to tempt him? Can God be tempted by satan? Was the "first Adam" also fully God and fully man? (1 Tim.2:5,6)
---david_8318 on 3/16/08

#2 Trey: So in order to become the "last Adam" and cover that sin, Christ had to make a mature, knowing choice to keep his integrity to God. Thus the entire faithful life course of the "last Adam"- including his sacrificial death- served as "one act of justification."Romans 5:18, 19. The Bible reveals that both "Adams" were tempted. Satan used Eve to put before the "first Adam" the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & bad in Eden (Gen.3:6)...
---david_8318 on 3/16/08

#1 Trey: Hi. Interestingly I agree with much of what you say. You acknowledge for instance that Christ is the "last Adam" who came to remove sin and death caused by the first Adam. The "first Adam", the first perfect man, through his own choosing lost his relationship as God's son. God sent a second Adam to replace and counterbalance the sin of the "first Adam". Adam's sin was willful, carried out with full knowledge of the seriousness of the act and its consequences...
---david_8318 on 3/16/08

Matt. 28:19 Jesus says "...baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" if these three don't agree as being One (God), then why would He say "be baptized in the name of the F,S, and H.S."? Gen. 1:26 "God said let US make man in OUR image" in the Bible the Father, the Son, and the H.S. are called God. There so much more to say about the Bible making it clear Jesus is God, there is not enough room to show all the verses! read for yourselves
---Danny on 3/14/08

Hi David,

In short, when the first Adam fell he plunged all mankind into sin. The first Adam represented all mankind (1 Cor 15:22). This is the doctrine of Original Sin.

Jesus Christ, is the Son of God (Mark 3:11), and the Son of Man (Matt 12:8). He is our representative and go between (1 Tim 2:5). Christ was fully man and fully God (Heb 1:2, John 20:28, John 8:58 and Phil 2:6-8).
---trey on 3/13/08

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Christ is the "Last Adam"(1Cor 15:45). He is the REPRESENTATIVE of God's people, and our propitiation. As you know, when Christ was crucified he bare our sins on the cross (1Pet 2:24).
---trey on 3/13/08


When Christ cried out upon the cross, "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) he was crying out as the Son of Man (the Last Adam), our representative and was suffering in our place.

After he finished paying our sin debt, we then hear him address God as the Son of God Luke 23:46.

Please read the scriptures that I have referenced.

Lord bless you,
---trey on 3/13/08

Scott, please forgive me for how my answers sounded. I do mean that the Trinitian believe has it's origin in Scripture and to demonstrate every detail would take for a person to be on line with every passage and explanation for those passages. And since it will do nothing for you, I would have to say, that God will have to reveal it to you. Nothing I put down will do you any good in four or five posts. I tried with John 5:19 but it took a lot to explain two verses.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

Trey: In your list of titles you give Jesus, I would like to add another title that trinitarians appear to struggle with.In addition to your list, you miss out "LAST ADAM" (1 Corinthians 15:45).I have yet to receive a decent response from trinitarians regarding Paul associating Jesus' equality, not with the Almighty God but with the first man Adam.(1 Tim 2:6,1 John 2:2) The only response from a trinitarian on 1 Corinthians 15:45 so far is in short, a denial of the Greek scriptures.
---david_8318 on 3/13/08

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WHO's voice came out of Heaven This IS my SON, in whom i am well pleased?
In a manner of speaking he is God, ALL Power & Glory & Honor has been given to him, BY "HIS FATHER"!
So much So, That NO man comes unto the FATHER, BUT, BY "HIM" PRAISE JESUS.
Stumble, stumble All the way to the Pit, Wallow, wollow in your OWN ____,
Question IS will You keep Lapping up your OWN VOMIT?
I just made that up, I like it!
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 3/13/08

With respect, and not as a point of argument, but have you ever noticed that while trinitarians defend the three in one concept they seldom if ever even discuss the father in this scenario, let alone the holy spirit. Some say this amounts to Christ worship rather than the worship of the Trinity.
---scott on 3/13/08

#2. Scott: The difference in us is that we have a fallen nature and Jesus had a sinless nature. He was guided by the Spirit which lived in Him and He obeyed the Father because they are One in the same. Jesus was the Redeemer of all people, not just in the New Testament. Those in the Old were saved the same way, by grace through faith in the coming Christ. You cannot even divide the Redeemer to say, well, One saved the people in the Old Testament and Jesus saved those in the New.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

#3. Scott: Jesus was submissive to the Father even to the Cross. He was came for one purpose only "foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundations of the world" He came to die for our sins. God cannot die in Spirit, so the Son did. Verse 19 came after 18,17, Jesus point in 17 is that whether He broke the Sabbath or not, God was working continusly and, since Jesus Himself worked continuously,
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

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#4. Scott: He (Jesus) also must be God. Furthermore, God does not need a day of rest for He never get tired. For Jesus self-defense to be valid, the same factors apply to God must also apply to Him. Jesus is Lore of the Sabbath and interestingly enough, even the rabbis admitted that God's work had not ceased after the Sabbath because He sustains the Universe. Verse 19 is an emphatic way of Him saying, "I'm telling the truth" in response to Jewish hostility at the implication
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

#5. Jesus became even more fealess and forceful. Jesus essentially tied His activities of healing on the Sabbath directly to the Father. The Son never took independent action that set Him against the Father because the Son only did those thing that were coincident with an co-extensive with all that the Father does. Jesus thus implied that the only One who could do what the Father does must be as great as the Father. The question is what is the intend of the heart of those who ask?
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

#6. Scott: do they really want to grow in the word and learn, or are they asking as the heretics of old for the purpose of putting their own agenda. The word of God will not change, no matter what anyone tries to do.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

Scott, The Old Testament Prophet is explicitly clear when he called the Future Messiah (YAHUSHUA/Jesus Christ) "Emmanuel". He referred to the Messiah/HaMashiach as "Emmanuel" for it meant GOD WITH US. GOD is now with us, in Flesh and Blood. Simple! "Elihu", as you said, means(?): YAHUVEH (Jehovah) is He. The king Elihu was named so, IN RESPECT TO THE GOD (YAHUVEH) of the Country(Israel), over which in part he was ruling. YAHUSHUA is God become Man.
---Gordon on 3/13/08

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Scott, You gave John 5:19 to explain your point. "The Son can do nothing of Himself" do you remember what the council of Chalcedon said? "Jesus is truly man and truly God. His natures are not mixed, confused, separated or divided" These is one reason why those words were used by the early fathers at the council. Christ in His humanity is 100% human, and 100% God. He is a person with two natures. Just like all born again Christians.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/08

Mark V
Your derogatory comment to me here is most fascinating: "People like you will always be around who attack the idea that Christ is one Person with two natures, a divine nature and a human nature"

My question to you, Where is that IDEA in scripture? What scriptural evidence have you put forward that describes such a dual nature? That Christ is both fully God and fully man. Or God man? Where was that explained to 1st century disciples?
---scott on 3/12/08

Jesus prayed to God as a son asks his father and also as an example to us that that is how we should depend on God for everything.
---ansha5385 on 3/12/08

Simply put, Jesus is Emmanuel or God with us. Therefore as a man, He was showing us the example we ought to follow when praying to God, not that He needed to, being God incarnate in the flesh as in the 1st chapter of John.
---Richard on 3/12/08

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Unanswered by Mark V

Re John 17:3
Even if one accepted the unscriptural dual nature you apply here...

My questions are: Is Christ praying to himself here?

If Jesus is "Fully God" here, where was the Father?

Who is minding the universal store in heaven?

Why did Jesus, if he is equal to the father here, refer to the Father as the ONLY TRUE God?

Please explain using scripture alone and without use of the "Divine Mystery" card.
---scott on 3/12/08

John 8:58,59 ..."Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am. Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
Here Jesus uses the name of God "I am". The name God gave from the burning bush. This is why they picked up stones to stone Him. He said very clearly, I am (God).
---rs on 3/12/08

The reason Jesus said "I do nothing without the Father, is because He and His Father are, at-one-ment, in each other and act as one not individually, see John 17:21. Jesus also says that we will be one with His Father and with Him, when we become righteous.
---rs on 3/12/08

Working in harmony with each other The Father and the son both GOD created the universe. But JESUS was not created because like the Father he always existed. Do not let the use of the words of men hide the fact JESUS is GOD.
---Samuel on 3/12/08

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Mark V,

I admire you brother. I do not have the patients to argue with those who do not know our Savior, Redeemer, Lord, Son of God, Son of Man, Christ Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, the Word, etc. (you get the point).

Those that deny Christ's diety speak with the spirit of the Antichrist.
---trey on 3/12/08

Unanswered by Mike #1-
If Moses, the judges and angels are gods NOT as an indication of equality, but as a position of honor GIVEN to them by the father, then why are references to Christ as God, who says he can "Do nothing of himself" (KJV) an indication of equality?

Simple question.
---scott on 3/12/08

Unanswered by Mike #2

You've accused me of being unfair to the readers. My question to you was: "In fairness to the readers" perhaps you would like to explain where in the original Hebrew for Ex 7:1 we find the words for "As" God or "like" a god, etc.
---scott on 3/12/08

Unanswered by Mike #3

The term "King" applies to David and God and Christ, etc., are they one and the same or equal because they share that title?
---scott on 3/12/08

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Unanswered by Mike #3
re Micah 5:2-A verse you used in to sugest Christ had no beginning.

"The original Hebrew "Motsaoth" (Going forth or Origin) makes clear that no matter how long Christ was in existence with his heavenly father, there was a BEGINNING" to that period of time. An ORIGIN."

Your response to the inspired word Motsaoth meaning origin?
---scott on 3/12/08

Mark V continued:

It's clear as well that Jehovah used his kings, judges, prophets, armies (earthly and angelic) to literally express his redemptive powers when the Jews were his chosen people.

Since Jesus at John 5:19, 30 says he can "Do nothing by himself" (NIV), even as redeemer of mankind, being SENT by the father, he is accomplishing his fathers will in doing so.
---scott on 3/12/08

Mark V re #2-

"Firstborn of all CREATION" at Col 1:15

"Beginning of the CREATION of God" at Rev 3:14

Prov 8:2- Many relate creation of wisdom to Christ
"[Lord (Jehovah) CREATED me first]" according to Suicer's Thesaurus.

"Clement repeatedly identifies the Word with the Wisdom of God, and refers to Wisdom as the first-CREATED of God." Supplementum Clementinum: pages 141-14

Malachi 5:2 Son had "ORIGIN" or beginning.
---scott on 3/12/08

Mark V re #2-

"Has in these last day spoken to us by His Son, whom HE HAS APPOINTED heir of all things, THROUGH whom also He made the worlds."

I think we might actually be in agreement here. The Father APPOINTED the son, an act in itself that shows superiority of the father. The son never appoints the Father to do anything. The "worlds" were created by the Father and THROUGH the son as his masterworker.
---scott on 3/12/08

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Mark V re John 17:3

Your answer here conjures the unscriptural teaching of the dual nature of Christ. Before we go down that well worn road please establish SCRIPTURALLY where that concept is TAUGHT. Not through inference. Perhaps the way the ressurection was TAUGHT and EXPLAINED by Paul using an entire chapter of 1st Corinthians.

Clearly the Jews would have had lots of questions about this. Where are they?

Step away from the pommel horse :)
---scott on 3/12/08

Mark- why do you stop at verse 14? If you read a bit further to John 1:18, it says 'No man hath seen God at anytime, only the begotten SON, which is in the bossom of the Father, he hath declared him.'(KJ) *No man has seen God*. Again, at best, John 1:1 only speaks of 2 individuals. On its own, it does not prove the trinity- you would need 3 individuals here surely? Greek context at John 1:1 shows the word "god" to be descriptive as at Acts 28:6 where some thought the apostle Paul to be 'a god'.
---david_8318 on 3/12/08

Mark V- Gymnastics?

You sited Isaiah 48:16: "Lord/Redeemer"

The original Hebrew shows that this Lord was YHWH or Jehovah.

Jehovah was the mighty redeemer of Israel (Check the context)

Jesus Christ redeems mankind through his sacrifice.

If you're suggesting that because both Jehovah and Christ are referred to as "Redeemer" they are the same person, you have taken a mighty leap from the parallel bars of theology... but will not stick the landing. :)
---scott on 3/12/08

Scott, I'm still waiting... Go back and read my reply to you on 3/8/08 titled Re:Mike # 4 and please answer my questions.
---Mike on 3/11/08

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Scott, correct me if I'm wrong... but if I remember correctly before the heavens and the earth were created their was no time. So if you think about it, once upon a time, their was a time when their was no time!
---Mike on 3/11/08

Mark V - Don't feel bad, Scott is doing the same with me! Hats off to all who are contending for the true faith!
---Mike on 3/11/08

Their was'nt a being or Spirit called "the Word" that became Jesus 1st. of all.
The VERY Words that came from Gods own Mouth Became Flesh, The SAME WORD that MADE ALL THINGS,The Holy Ghost is Sent By God as it was to MARY SO Gods WORD took the form of Flesh And BECAME "THE 1st. BEGOTTEN OF GOD"
and now we are able to be Baptised by it, Thru the Blood of Jesus...
John indeed Baptised them with water, I too was, But, the Lord shall Baptise US/you w/The Holy Ghost...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 3/11/08

Yes Jesus is God. He is God the son. There is also God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
---Ladybug on 3/11/08

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Here is the thing: A family has members that work together for the same cause. It does not mean that individually they are equil, but together they are. By the way, the use of Clement's letters are an eyeopener for new you can see what Peter was writing about. I find the same with the Septaugent. The word for spirit is female in the Old Testament.
---Dr.Rich on 3/11/08

David keeps asking where in the Bible it says that Christ is God and it can be found in the book of John Chapter 1. It says in vs. 1 that the Word is God and in vs. 14 that the word became flesh( read for full context) It is obvious from this that if the Word is God and the Word became flesh (Jesus Christ) that Jesus Christ is God.
---Mark on 3/11/08

I get it. From most of the comments below, God (father) is the supreme figurehead and Jesus (son) is the co-deity that does everything. The father is not active but the instructor having the son to form the earth, make all living things, oversee His people and make all the rules. The Son performs miracles, gives us His word to live by, dies for us then overcomes death to lead us to eternal life. The Holy spirit is from the Son and is an extension of Him. So what is it the father does?
---mikefl on 3/11/08

Scott, the reason why Jesus distinguishes Himself from the only true God is that he was speaking from the point of a human. His human form was from the flesh and every time He spoke He spoke from the Human perspective. The only times when He use His Godly attributes was to do miracles. He was not only Human but was God. He came not to prove His Deity but to die for our sins in the flesh. The promised made in Genesis 3:15. The Seed was Jesus, the human. Who was born of the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/08

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#2. Scott: No where does Scripture state that the Son was created but is mentioned many times as it does in Hebrew 1:2 as, "has in these last day spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds,' Jesus is mentioned as also been there when the world's were created. It never mentions anywhere that at one time before anything was created, He was created. Read John 1:2-3, Gen 1:2, Job 26:13, 33:4, and many more passages.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/08

#2. Emcee I love Mary. I never want to cut her down. I do believe Mary was a wonderful person. She is not in Genesis 3:15 and not in Rev. 5:8 as the Catholics suggest in their website. They answer the arguement about Mary listening and answering prayers by using a passage that has nothing whatsoever to do with Mary. One lie leads to another and another. It just doesn't stop. It is no wonder there is not much truth in the RCC. Most of it is not biblical and the reason the Bible is not final authority.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/08

Scott, you did some gymnastics again with the passages I gave you. You didn't answer my question. You want me to go to another question but you have not explain the Redeemers words. That He is Lord and God. Not only the Redeemer of Israel but of all people for in the Old Testament they were saved by grace through faith in the coming Christ. Don't do what Jehovah witnesses do and go to another passage when you haven't explained the first.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/08

Re your comments about Emmanuel and Elihu, with respect, my reply is....WHAT???
---scott on 3/10/08

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Scott re:Ex 7:1 take it out and it still only addresses Pharaoh and in Ex 4:16 to Aaron. I was not quoting from the Greek but the ESV. Now I have answered your ? directly, will you now do me the favor of answerning mine? And just in case you ask, I'm a member of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
---Mike on 3/10/08

If you seek a close relationship with Jesus
he will reveal himself to you and tell you who he is and show you the father, your lack of knowing reveals your lack of relationship,
---exzucuh on 3/10/08

Dr Rich is a heretic and I suggest you repent of your blasphemy of Saying the Holy Ghost is a woman if you can. It may be to late for you.
you may be reprobate I hope you are just ignorant so God will forgive you.
---exzucuh on 3/10/08

Mike re Micah 5:2-
"goings forth" (Heb Motsaoth) means "Origin"
Brown, Driver and Briggs, from Gesenius, 1907, printing of 1978

Origin is of old, of long descent.MO.
Origin is of old from ancient times.NAB.
Origin goes back to the distant past, to the days of old.JB.
Origins are from of old, from ancient times.NIV.

Origin is defined by Websters New Twentieth Century Dictionary as: a coming into existence or use, beginning.
---scott on 3/10/08

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Dr.Rich: What are you trying to saying? So just because the terms, the Father, the spirit and Jesus included as the narrator are mentioned in the same verse (as in John 14:26), you draw the conclusion they are co-eternal and co-equal.Does that mean then that when the 12 disciples are mentioned together in the same verses,we should conclude they are all,one and the same and all the same age?
---david_8318 on 3/10/08

Mike re Micah 5:2-cont
"Olam"= "Ancient times/everlasting"

Can mean eternity, can also mean:

[H]idden time, the beginning of which is uncertain or undefined, eternity, time long past" Tregelles, 1895, p.612.

"Something hidden, time immemorial, from ancient times,
Harkavy, Hebrew Dictionary, 1914, pp. 508, 9.

[O]f past time, A. ancient time: days of old Mi 5:1, .
Brown, Driver and Briggs, from Gesenius, 1907, printing of 1978, p. 761
---scott on 3/10/08

Mike re Micah 5:2-cont
So it would appear that even with the meaning of "Olam" being somewhat ambiguous, the original Hebrew "Motsaoth" (Going forth or Origin) makes clear that no matter how long Christ was in existence with his heavenly father, there was a BEGINNING" to that period of time. An ORIGIN.
---scott on 3/10/08

More on Mostaoth= Origin

[O]rigin is from ancient age, from the days of old.George R. Noyes, (NO).

Whence comes he? From the first beginning, from ages untold!.Ronald Knox, (KN).

[O]rigins are from of old, From ancient days.AT.

[O]rigins being from of old, from ancient days.BY.

[O]rigins are from of old, from ancient times.NIV.

One whose origins are far back in the past, in ancient times.The Revised English Bible, (REB), 1989.
---scott on 3/10/08

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"[Lord (Jehovah) created me first of work of his]"

Zahn [in "Supplementum Clementinum: pages 141-147] ... points to the fact that Clement makes a sharp distinction between the Son or Word who was Begotten or CREATED before the rest of creation and the alone unbegotten God and Father."
---scott on 3/10/08

Dr. Rich,
I can't speak for the views of others here but I find indisputable scriptural support for the existence of a Father, a Son and Holy Spirit. But where does the idea that they are all equal, three separate Gods and yet not three but one, get spelled out in the inspired text?
---scott on 3/10/08

Mark V re #2. The original Hebrew helps here-

Isa 45:19 (RSV) "I have not spoken in secret..."I, Jehovah, speak righteousness..."

Isa 48:16,17 " I have not spoken in secret...and now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and his Spirit. Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: I am Jehovah thy God, who teacheth thee to profit, who leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go".

Jehovah proved to be a very powerful redeemer for the nation of Isreal.
---scott on 3/10/08

Mark V- Re John 17:3
I absolutely view Christ as my redeemer, but what your not addressing in your response is why Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from the one he refers to as "The ONLY true God" (In a prayer that he was apparently praying to himself?)

Please explain that using scripture and without unscriptural terms like dual nature, god/man, etc.
---scott on 3/10/08

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First born cont.

"...Clement, who with the Septuagint rendering of the passage in Proverbs before him could have no misgiving as to the use of these terms. ...Str., 5.14 Ex. Theod., c.20. Str., vi.7.

John Patrick, Edinburgh, William Blackwood and Sons, 1914, pp. 103, 104
---scott on 3/10/08

You will find the 'Godhead' or the family of God in John 14:26 and 15:26. You have the Almighty God as the Father, the Holy Spirit as the Mother (Woman of Rev. 12), and Jesus Christ as their Son. What is so hard to understand with this?
---Dr.Rich on 3/10/08

Mike, I must have missed your reply regarding Ex 7:1. You may recall that you accused me of unfairness to the readers:

My simple question to you was then: "In fairness to the readers" perhaps you would like to explain where in the original Hebrew for Ex 7:1 we find the words for "As" God or "like" a god, etc.
---scott on 3/10/08

Firstborn Col 1:15 (#1)- "Clement (of Alexandria) repeatedly identifies the Word with the Wisdom of God, and yet he refers to Wisdom as the first-created of God...At a later date a sharp distinction was drawn between "first-created" and "first-born" or "first-begotten." cont...
---scott on 3/10/08

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Jesus's specific role is "Lamb of God"/salvation, and was sent by Father God for that purpose (because God is gracious). The Father's first act of grace was creation (the third is His spirit).

Jesus is God's SAVING grace. Jesus will never outrank the Father and never used His own power, but recieved power from the FATHER.
---greg on 3/10/08

Scott, there is no question in my mind that Jesus is the incarnated Redeemer, who was from the beginning, and was never created. Now you jump and dance and put Scriptures because you do not believe this and it is ok that you don't believe it. "That they may know you," is in relation to a personal relationship. They of course are not going to know everything about the Godhead. And to say someone does is to say you have the mind of God, and no one does Scott.
---Mark_V. on 3/10/08

#2. Scott: Listen to the words of the Lord, "Come near to Me hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have send Me." Thus says the Lord Your Redeemer, The Holy One from Israel, I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go." Isaiah 48:16,17. How about that Scott? The Messiah, calls Himself Lord and God. What do you have to say about that?
---Mark_V. on 3/10/08

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