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Pentecostal Versus Protestant

Why is there a distinct difference between protestant churches and the pentecostal churches? Isn't Christ the same.

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 ---Farai on 7/14/05
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"Moderator - The problem with their demon spirit is that it is invited in by the Mormon. If someone wants a demon in them, that's a lot harder to get IT out."
---Rachel on 1/13/08

"Moderator - Darlene, yes "some" Mormons or LDS speak in tongues and all belief it is a gift."
---Rachel on 1/13/08

"Moderator - Yes, the problem is that the Mormons invite the spirit in and want the demon to stay in."
---Rachel on 1/13/08

"Moderator - I have never heard a Mormon speak in tongues as almost none do. I have heard them pray before and yes it VERY empty and void. They have a religious demon in them which is invited in as part of their salvation process called the "Burning In The Bosom"."

This is true, very true.
---Rachel on 1/13/08

"Moderator - I witnessed at the Salt Lake City headquarters on two missions trips and studied for several years their doctrines in order to be an effective witness. That is how I know. Joseph Smith spoke in tongues, therefore they can't deny speaking in tongues even though very few of them speak in tongues."
---Rachel on 1/13/08

Terry. You have an inaccurate view of the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is also called the Body of Christ, which means all those who profess faith in Christ are part of the Body of Christ (i.e., The Church, singular).

When Jesus said He will build His Church, He didn't mean an "building". The Church is an organism. We [the believers] are the Church because we are save by Christ' power and we are His bride. It is NOT the building Terry...
---Ramon on 6/30/07

#2 Terry I will suggest you read the Bible. You have alot to learn. The Church of Christ are all those who come together to worship and praise Him. However, there many false Churches and many false doctrines.

I don't see your point. The Roman Catholic Church are also divided amongst themselves too. Can you explain that to me? Is the Bride of Christ a building? Is the Body of Christ a building? We [not the organization]are the Church.
---Ramon on 6/30/07

Ramon: there are more than 34,000 different protestant denominations explain that to me. Is that what Jesus planned when he said I will build My Church (singular)
---Terry on 6/21/07

protestant churches were born in the sixteenth century when people got together and invented many doctrines in rebellion against the catholic church. people believed different things and fought constantly creating different denominations so they would not feel guilty about their actions. archives of history, Poland 1550. the reformers picked up on that in 1635. same archives of history. anyone can read it.
---ashley on 6/21/07

2- the church claims an origin on the day of Pentacost, they actually began in a town in Texas, 1904. A group of men gathered in worship and one began speaking in a different tongue which attracted attention. They thought it would be a great idea and it spread into the L.A basin 1906. By spreading their beliefs, two distinct groups formed which merged in 1945 into the United Pentacostal assemblies. archives of religious history. look it up, on pentacostal history websites sanctioned by the church itself.
---ashley on 6/21/07

FF:Protestant means to protest & this is what happened when Martin Luther under the guidance Ot the Divine right of Kings theory Broke AWAY from the catholic Church
---Emcee on 6/21/07

just remember, baptists are not protestants
---r.w. on 6/12/06

Alan, that's quite correct! And the only way he's going to understand the difference is to get some spiritual understanding which God will give him when he gets saved.

Actually, the interpretation, being like a prophesy, is for the believers. The unsaved won't really get the depth of it.

1 Cor 14:22:
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying {serveth} not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
---Jeffrey on 3/10/06

John_T, when I speak in tongues, there is no spirit that takes over and makes me speak! I speak by the freedom of my will! But God gives me the words to speak. So there is no spirit to ask anything of except God!

When I speak in tongues, it's just God and me. And He doesn't force me! I can start when I want and stop when I want. He just gives me the words and I speak them. And in a believers' meeting, after I speak in tongues, He gives me the interpretation and I speak it forth.
---Jeffrey on 3/10/06

Moderator, I'm not sure that inviting a devil spirit in makes it harder to get out unless the person still wants it. But if someone with a devil spirit changes his mind and wants it out, God can get it out! After all, He's going to throw the devil himself into the lake of fire (Rev 20:10)! Our God is an awesome God!

Moderator - Yes, the problem is that the Mormons invite the spirit in and want the demon to stay in.
---Jeffrey on 3/10/06

What I mean Jeffrey is that a non-Christian will hear HS tongues (if he is invited to such a service, and as you say will not understand, although he may understand (and perhaps dislike) the translation given. Then he goes to see a medium and again he hears something he cannot understand, but the medium translates, and he hears something he wants to hear (because that is how they work)
---alan_of_uK on 3/10/06

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Jeffery, thank you, but no I wasn't offended. I just didn't know why you put an exclamation point because I didn't mean for what I said to be anything but a general statement. All is well.
---Darlene_1 on 3/10/06

If Mormon and cultic tongues sound like Christian tongues, how to tell the difference?

Most Ts apologists appeal to the emotional; "It feels good whenI doit, thusit is good and Godly" That is dangerously shallow.

Use Scripture, TEST THE SPIRITS Next time you speak in tongues, ask the uttering spirit, "Has Jesus Christ, the only Son of God come in the flesh?" Only Holy Spirit will give a sweet, affirmitive answer. Nor will HS generate fear; that comes from the Enemy.
---John_T on 3/10/06

Darlene_1, I'm sorry I offended you by responding to your post.

Correct, Bruce! That's why we need to witness to them by speaking the truth in love.

Moderator, I've never heard of the "Burning In The Bosom". But if they do have devil spirits, Jesus is really good at casting them out!

Moderator - The problem with their demon spirit is that it is invited in by the Mormon. If someone wants a demon in them, that's a lot harder to get IT out.
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

Sincere they may be, but sincerly wrong.

Proverbs 16:25, "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
---Bruce5656 on 3/9/06

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I agree, Bruce, "love the sinner, hate the sin" and never compromise on the Word of God. But we have to keep restudying the Word to make sure we're speaking the truth in love and not our opinions, unlovingly. :)

Yes, we need to beware of those who actively oppose God! But I've met Mormons and others who are sincerely trying to do God's Will. They just believe wrongly because no one has ever taught them the truth in love so they could understand it.
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

You're right, of course, Alan. But consider also 1 Cor 2:14:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.

Perhaps, with non-Christians, we need to concentrate on "Jesus is lord" and "God raised him from the dead" (Rom 10:9&10) so they can get saved.
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

I grew up in the episcopal church, attended the methodest church during high school, as an adult I attended a Pentecostal church for three years ... I find the Pentecostal church to be a more spiritually based people. No ritual stuff, straight Biblical teaching. I learned a lot there, Celebration Fellowship. Cool name too!
---Nellah on 3/9/06

Jeffrey yes walk in love. As a young wife our "couple" friends were my husband's friends first, weren't Christian. I lived Christian life before them . One lady, having a Birthday Party at a Honkytonk,I didn't want to go but after her begging I went, being careful to let my light shine and not act like the crowd. Years later her sister, married to a Pastor, testified I was the reason she got saved,because of my Christian testimony that night,she's still working for God as Pastor's wife.
---Darlene_1 on 3/9/06

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Jeffery ,where did that come from addressing something to me, when I was making an observation or statement of facts and not talking at you .What's going on? What I said is true for prayed up Christians they know their Master's voice and know when it isn't. Moderator ,thanks, I am really surprised about the Mormons speaking in some kind of tongues. Did the Spirit of God bear witness with yours or did you have that heavy dark feeling when you heard them?

Moderator - I have never heard a Mormon speak in tongues as almost none do. I have heard them pray before and yes it VERY empty and void. They have a religious demon in them which is invited in as part of their salvation process called the "Burning In The Bosom".
---Darlene_1 on 3/9/06

As with any other sinner, love the sinner, hate the sin.

By the way, of the false teachers of his time, Paul wrote:Philippians 3:2, "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision."

How is that for a "derogatory label?" When it came to the defense of the gospel and his flock, Paul was uncompromising. Not unloving, but uncompromising.
---Bruce5656 on 3/9/06

Of course you are right Jeffrey, only Christians will speak in tongues from the Holy Spirit.
I should have referred to speaking in strange language, (which can be counterfeited by Satan to resemble HS tongues) which to the unwary could be taken as being good. The non-Christian will not understand the difference between genuine HS tongues, and mediums' spirit-talk, and the counterfeit.
---alan_of_uK on 3/9/06

Instead of jumping all over me about tongues, how about someone responding to my comment about walking in love toward Mormons?

Shouldn't we walk in love toward everyone (Eph 5:2), including those who are wrongly taught? Didn't Jesus Christ say to love our enemies (Matt 5:44, Luke 6:27)? Is giving them a derogatory label loving them?
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

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Alan, I've never heard of mediums speaking in tongues. I have heard of them being possessed by devil spirits who spoke through them in a language the devil spirit understands. But that's not speaking in tongues!

Genuine speaking in tongues is not by possession! The person does the speaking (Acts 2:4) but the Holy Spirit (God) gives the words!

Darlene, f.f., I'm not talking about the counterfeit! But genuine speaking in tongues, being a manifestation of holy spirit, is always from God!
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

No Jeffrey, God does not give the gifts of the Holy Spirit to people who are not saved but the devil counterfeits many things, including tongues. That is how unsaved people can speak in tongues.
---f.f. on 3/9/06

Bible says try the spirits to see if they are from God. If what's said doesn't line up with the Word/Way of God they aren't of God, another test,is what's said a reflection of God's love? Satan has a counterfeit for everything God does and that is why discernment of spirits,in operation, is so important. A Christian can tell whats of God. If not of God, heavy feeling,like darkness over our spirit,or makes you want to run away. Being prayed up, knowing the Word,walking in the Holy Spirit protects/leads.
---Darlene_1 on 3/9/06

Jeffrey ... you ask if someone can speak in tongues unless saved. Well. I have heard of spiritualist mediums speaking in tongues, and I believe that comes from the devil, or from fakery. I suppose the message sent will help dteremine whether the person is saved?
---alan_of_uK on 3/9/06

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Speaking in tongues is not required for salvation, but salvation is required for speaking in tongues. It's a manifestation of holy spirit (1 Cor 12:7). You cannot manifest holy spirit unless you have holy spirit!

Manifestation - An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something (American Heritage Dictionary)

Many of you believe that speaking in tongues is a gift from God. Are you telling me that God gives His gifts to people who aren't saved?
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

If your church believed differently from the vast majority of Christians, but you studied and sincerely believed you were right, would you want other churches to label you a cult? Would it encourage you to believe like them if they did?

For the record, I'm not Mormon! (Didn't you read my post?) Mormons are wrongly taught! But shouldn't we walk in love toward them (Eph 5:2)? After all, it's the goodness of God that leads people to repentance (Rom 2:4).
---Jeffrey on 3/9/06

On a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints radio broadcast, I heard them speaking in tounges.

From Mormon Articles of faith 1:7.We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth Articles of faith 1:7.

Also, how ironic is this?

Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues (Teachings, 162).
---Bruce5656 on 3/8/06

Exactly...Mormons are not saved. I am commenting on the thread "Those Mormons who speak in tongues are saved even though they're wrongly taught." Speaking in tongues is not required for salvation...accepting Jesus Christ is and the Mormons have their own doctrines not Jesus'.
---sam on 3/8/06

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Moderator, thanks for input, but It seems odd that if tongues are accepted by the Mormons, the people don't, as a general rule, practice them. My first cousin(a different side of family) raised Pentecostal married Mormon and she doesn't believe in them and they aren't taught ,evidently in her church. Do the Mormons have a site to confirm this teaching? Puzzeled? Seems they do but they don't?

Moderator - I witnessed at the Salt Lake City headquarters on two missions trips and studied for several years their doctrines in order to be an effective witness. That is how I know. Joseph Smith spoke in tongues, therefore they can't deny speaking in tongues even though very few of them speak in tongues.
---Darlene_1 on 3/8/06

Sam: So what?
My point was to demonstrate that tongues are NOT a sign of salvation, especially if Mormons do it.

I left a church because some teacher taught that "tongues clear the mind" a clear Mormon teaching, and would not back down when confronted, and the teacher was supported by elders and pastor.
---John_T on 3/8/06

You do not need to seek tongues because it is a gift, just as the other gifts of the Spirit are.

You do not hear about whining for, or sessions for the gifts of prophecy, discernment, preaching or teaching or evangelism, etc. because God gives them to his people as he pleases, for the edification of the church.
---John_T on 3/8/06

The Mormons are not a church of Jesus Christ...they are a cult!
---Sam on 3/8/06

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Alan, ha ha, as you can see I don't use squelch enough to even know how to spell it. It is a word that was used more,I think, in the 1940's and 1950's than now. Yes it is a word that was used freely in USA at one time to denote supressing something or stamping it out completely.
---Darlene_1 on 3/8/06

John T ,where did you hear Mormons speak in tongues? A cousin married one, and we discussed their religion in length,I ask if Mormoms speak in tongues she said "no". Lee the True early Christian Church did sanction speaking in tongues ,it was only after Tertullian,who wasn't into Montanism when he wrote against them( susposedly Catholic then) ,men like him, and the Catholic Church came against them. One reason was women moving in all the Gifts/Minstering as the Men did without beeing ordained.

Moderator - Darlene, yes "some" Mormons or LDS speak in tongues and all belief it is a gift.
---Darlene_1 on 3/8/06

John, there are always lots of opinions (yours too), few definitions, and fewer facts from scripture on these forums. Where does the Bible say "seek not" regarding tongues?

I hate the label you used, but I know about the administrations and I know that tongues is for this entire Age of Grace and will not end until "that which is perfect is come" at Christ's return when we get our new bodies.

Those Mormons who speak in tongues are saved even though they're wrongly taught.

Moderator - Are you Mormon Jeffrey? Mormons or LDS are a cult. Please take the Cult Bible Quiz.
---Jeffrey on 3/7/06

Lee, the reason the first century Christians did not forbid speaking in tongues is because God said in 1 Cor 14:39, "forbid not to speak with tongues."

Alan, we don't use "squelch" every day in the US, but it's commonly understood to mean "suppress". Another use of "squelch" is the knob that gets rid of the background noise on a two-way radio. What do you call that in the UK?
---Jeffrey on 3/7/06

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Lots of opinions here, few definitions and fewer facts from Scripture.

I gave the facts from Scripture today, as well as the definition from Scripture: a language, not gibberish.

IMO too many people seek the estatic experience, and use that as an idol to judge others because they seek the gift, rather than the Giver of the gifts

There is NO DIRECT Scripture verse saying tongues ceased (sorry, Dispensationalists).

BTW do you know that Mormons also speak in tongues?
---John_T on 3/7/06

Darlene_1 - it is possible that the reason the early church did not sanction speaking in tongues may be because of its practice by some of the cultic movements such as Montanism of whom Tertillian was a follower.
---lee on 3/7/06

Darlene ... "Squelch" ... a new word to me, but I found it in my dictionary! Never heard it in UK, it is commonly used in the USA?
---aalan8869_of on 3/7/06

The early Pentecostal movement in the US actually included Charles Parham, a Methodist minister, and his students who were looking for something more. They sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.
---wes on 3/7/06

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Ruben, due respect to your right to your opinion, but yes it's true, tongues never stopped. Don't look at Pentecostal History, look up History of Tongues. You will find even Catholic(?) Tertullian speaking against them as well as other writers and the Catholic Church. They tried to squelsh them but tongues did continue from the Upper Room to present day. You not believing it doesn't make you correct, when History shows differently. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 3/7/06

SEEK NOT, FORBID NOT 1COR14 27If any man speaks in a tongue,...and let one interpret: 28 if no interpreter... keep silence in the church; ...33for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace.... 39Wherefore, desire earnestly to prophesy, forbid not to speak with tongues. 40But let all things be done decently and in order.

TONGUES IS A LANGUAGE, NOT GIBBERISH, NOR LICENCE FOR CHAOS. What sorts of languages do these speak? ethnic groups-preach the word [to] reach cowboys, bikers, rappers, etc Bub
---John_T on 3/7/06

"I suspect after viewing many in the movement"

You may suspect after viewing many in the movement but I may I suggest that we aren't to view many but One. Instead of basing truth on what you have seen in others, base it upon what Jesus has said: "I come to baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire." If we based salvation upon what we have viewed in many, then we would probably have to completely discard the fact that it is even a real experience.
---Paulie on 3/7/06

Lee...Why don't you read "They spoke in other tongues" by John Sherril. He studied the phenomenon across denominations.
---wes on 3/7/06

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Any Spiritual gift whether Gift of Holy Ghost with tongues,gift of tongues(Not same as first),or any other empowerment requires a different way of focusing ones attention. It is imperative one focus on pleasing God alone. It is being put in command of a voice which must speak only God's Words. The Gifts are sent to minister to the Body of Believers,what they receive or reject is up to them ,but the person so empowered must obey God,for God's wrath is still given for calling one's own words God's.
---Darlene_1 on 3/7/06

I have absolutely no problem with people of today speaking in tongues if that is the gift that God has chosen to give to them. However I do have problems with people who crow like cockerels, moo like cows and zoom around church arms outstretched pretending to be aeroplanes. We can read about tongues in the bible but not these other 'manifestations' which some claim are still gifts of the Holy Spirit. Alan I'm a category 3 person, how about you?
---M.P. on 3/7/06

I totally agree and i think they should believe that what God did in the past should remailn in the future
---Brianna on 3/7/06

alan - "I would be surprised if anyone who did speak in tongues found it a probelem!!"

Been there! but luckily I was brought up to ask questions. Most of my observations have been negative; very few positive.The experience drove me deep into the study of the Bible.

Dr. RC Sproul, the author of many books, and Ligonier Ministries had this experience but denounced it; I suspect after viewing many in the movement.
---lee on 3/7/06

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Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, day, and forever, but many denominational churches have been deceived by Satan and think the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and other gifts of the Holy Spirit were only for the past and not for today.
---wes on 3/7/06

DoryLory #2
3 Those who do not and have been made to feel inferior for not doing so
4 Those who do, but do not regard those who do not as inferior Christians
5 Those who do, and regard those who do not as inferior, or even non-, Christians
I would be worried about Groups 1 & 5, and would encourage those in Group 3 to understand that if you do not have this gift, it is no reflection on you, & you probably have other gifts
---alan8869_of on 3/7/06

DoryLory #1 "Something I've noticed is that the only people who seem to have any sort of problem with tongues are the people who don't do it" I would be surprised if anyone who did speak in tongues found it a probelem!!! But not all those who do not, ahve a problem with it. I think there are five main attitudes to speaking in tongues.
1 Those who do not, and think that those who do are wrong
2 Those who do not and have no problem with those who do
---alan8869_of on 3/7/06

Ruben. You believe that the Pope can interpert scriptures, yet you see that they are alot of Roman Catholic churches out there. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches are bitterly divided against themselves. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have no "high moral ground" upon which to walk when it comes to denominationalism. They are highly divided even within their own ranks. They are not "one", this prove they are wrong. Stop using the "division" agrument. Thats hypocrisy.
---Ramon on 3/7/06

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Ruben."The difference is all protestants believe that they can interpret the BIBLE so that is why you have so many different protestants churches!!!" Excuse me ruben there are between 30-410 Roman Catholic denominations and between 41-1302 Orthodox denominations. (Depending how your count them)There are over 142 different Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations. This fact will come as a shock to most Catholics and Orthodox believers.
---Ramon on 3/7/06

The protestants came from the Reformation which objected to the false and nonBiblical teachings of the catholic religion. A pentecostal is a born-again Christian who is filled with the Holy Spirit with manifested signs following, as "slayings in the spirit", changed and regenerated and sanctified lives, diverse gifts bestowed from God, speaking in new heavenly tongues, and interpretations of tongues, visions and revelations, prophesying, proven supernatural healings, and resurrections, etc.
---Eloy on 3/6/06

I am a pentecostal-evangelist preacher who believes that the tongues that we may need to be speaking is to reach our different ethnic groups-preach the word as is but in a way that reaches cowboys, bikers, rappers, etc.
---Bub on 3/6/06

I'm persuaded the Protestant [Protest] 'denominations' are products of Martin Luther's 'unintentional' protest movement, initiated by him nailing his thesis of justfication by faith, to a castle door.

'Pentecostal' [Disciples/Christians; Acts 11:26] "took to the hills" during the early church persecution [Nero, etc], Heb.11:(32-34), 35-39.


Bottom Line?
What we believe, opposed to what God says!

God Bless!
---bob6749_[Elishama] on 8/15/05

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Dear Brother DoryLory: Your response is intriguing. We have denominations because of "different tastes and personalities"....perhaps. BUT "protection from tyrants seeking world wide control". Hard to believe, but you know, with the way the world is today, you may be RIGHT!! I'll have to think, pray, meditate on this one. Thanks for enlarging my vision! Anymore re this?
---Elsie on 7/20/05

Hi Elsie - I always enjoy reading your posts. You are a blessing!

Just a comment about your suspicion that God isn't happy with different denominations.

God separated the Israelites into 12 tribes. He also confused the languages at the Tower of Babel & scattered the people. We need different denominations because of the differences in our tastes & personalities. Another thing, different denominations offer a measure of protection from tyrants seeking world-wide control.
---DoryLory on 7/19/05

When we all get to heaven, then we will worship in one accord. But anyone who likes nice, quiet hymns might be in for a surprise ... Revelation 5:11,12 indicates that it's going to be LOUD!

Regarding the hoopla of speaking in tongues. Something I've noticed is that the only people who seem to have any sort of problem with tongues are the people who don't do it. Rather an interesting observation if you stop to think about it a moment.
---DoryLory on 7/19/05

What is this speaking in tongues hoopla? Can't we just thank God for one of His many gifts? He is no respector of persons. ( I suspect He isn't especially happy with different denominations either.) I am part of an intercessory prayer group; many of our members speak in tongues. We don't even mention it; we just let the Holy Spirit have His way with us. Each woman belongs to a different church and/or denomination. Our only commonality is Christ's bond of Love. I never thought I'd live to see it!!
---Elsie on 7/19/05

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Farai- The difference is all protestants believe that they can interpret the BIBLE so that is why you have so many different protestants churches!!!
---ruben on 7/19/05

i believe when Christ comes he won't be looking for certain denominations but rather doers of the Word. So instead of focusing on what some people ages ago did, why not focus on Christ and whether u r living a life worthy of ur the Lord with ur whole being and love ur neighbour as urself.That was their time and this is now!
---esther on 7/19/05

what we must be careful of, and I've seen this so much is worshiping the gift rather than the giver. teaching that prosperity is in money and material things. sorry to have to say this, the Pentecostal churches think they are the only ones who are Sprit fulled.
---wayne on 7/19/05

According to scripture, when the Holy Spirit has control of your tongue, he can use it in one of four different ways: to speak any of the KNOWN LANGUAGES in the world, or to speak an UNKNOWN LANGUAGE, or to speak with the TONGUES OF ANGELS, or to speak GOD'S WORDS of prophecy. The unknown language is called "Glossalalia" or tongues. It is the gift from heaven, the heavenly language which we speak in heaven, it is not of this earth.
---Eloy on 7/19/05

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phia4633 With all due respect for your opinion; Thats not what the Bible says.Acts 2:8&11 How hear we every man in our own tongue,wherein we were born?--we do hear them"speak"in our tongues the wonderful works of God.This clearly states there was "speaking in tongues" .Verses 9-11 tell the different countries/languages of the people who were there and amazed by it (verse12).
---Darlene_1 on 7/18/05

I have attended many different churches with different denominations throughout my life. I have never felt the intimacy with God that a feel at an Assembly of God church. I have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and have witnessed healings. What ever denomination you practice, make sure God is with you!
---Karen on 7/18/05

There was no Gossolalia at Pentecost. Each speaker spoke in there own language language and each hearer understood in his/her own language; that is not speaking in tongues. It is the exact opposit of what happned at the Tower Of Bable. It was a miracle of universal understanding; nothing to do with tongues.
---phia4633 on 7/18/05

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