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Have God's Moral Laws Changed

Have God's moral laws changed?

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 ---Moderator on 10/11/05
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I'm so glad to see that there are a few people who know that God does not divide His laws into moral,civil or ceremonial. If morality is what we follow then love would not fulfill all the law, morality would fulfill all the law. Paul calls the law our tutor, it is ,it teaches us how to love.
---mike on 6/5/08

Nothing about God or His word has ever or will ever change.
---Brian on 6/4/08

It's so simple> Ecc 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." NEVER will it cease to amaze me how 'God's people' love to argue about how much of HIS WORD they can get by with NOT obeying and still "make it to Heaven" One cannot claim to keep what Jesus called the most important commandment and still pick and choose thier own custom-made rules to live by and throw what they don't like out the window
---Sis_M. on 6/4/08

Andrea: Are you subject to God's Law or not? If not, then you have a carnal mind. It's that simple.
---jerry6593 on 10/2/07

Following the 10C is the easy part.

Try not being angry with your brother or not looking at someone with lust and worshiping and staying in His spirit 24/7. Now that is really keeping His commandments.
---Andrea on 10/1/07

If you Love Jesus, you will follow the 10 commandments. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but His words will never pass away!
Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33
---Lisa on 10/1/07

I follow the law of love and follow Christ....the old system is obsolete bc He gave us a better one.....get over it jerry....follow Jesus. I don't care what church you go to...follow Jesus.....and you will fulfill His commandments 7 days a week.
not the outward beggardly shadowy things but the inward Spiritual things

maybe your just unable to put your trust in Him - to save you.
---Andrea on 10/1/07

Andrea: Test your own heart by the scripture:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you subject to God's Law or not?
---jerry6593 on 10/1/07

The 10 Commandments were written on stone to illustrate that there is NO CHANGE & men can make reference as time passes by as we can see from these posts.Mens Hearts change besides one cannot read whats inside by others Only God can .He knows His commandments.while you argue about them, to live them is to follow them,and HIM who gave them.
---Emcee on 9/30/07

jerry - if you really understood "God in you". You would not be saying that we are lawless-we have the law of Christ in us and it is far more moral then the 10C. The 10C are a guide, Jesus is our guide.

I can't make you grasp what can only be understood spiritually.

ask Jesus to reveal to you---Himself.

stop judging with Ellen Whites rulebook. Of foods and moons---carnal

If you judged by God's guidelines you would already understand salvation by the faith of Christ
---Andrea on 9/30/07

The Bible clearly states that the only thing new about the new covenant is its location - the heart rather than stone. It is God's Law that is placed in the heart. Without scriptural authority, there is no justification for removing even one of the Ten Commandments from "the Law" which is placed in the heart. What we frequently see on this site is a futile attempt by some to force the scriptures to justify their own lawlessness. God isn't buying it!
---jerry6593 on 9/30/07

Never!! The world would like to have us believe that they have but they HAVE NOT. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomarrow. We as Christians must be very cautious because there is much deception.
---splaa6685 on 9/29/07

I have seen no one say we don't follow the commandments, they are obsolete bc we follow them spiritually.

Jesus said if you are angry at your brother you are guilty of murder. If we follow the law of Christ does that sound like He is promoting breaking the commandments.
BC He sees your heart. The 10C are actually extended spiritually
The Sabbath is spiritually 24hrs a day 7 days a week (not just on Saturday)He is our Sabbath rest

---Andrea on 9/29/07

Messiah Yahushua obeyed all 10 commandments and did not break the Sabbath. Had he done so, He would have sinned and we know He was without sin. What He did was to observe the 4th commandment in its purest intention without giving mind to the traditions men had attached to the Sabbath. He knew best how to keep the Sabbath since He created it on the 7th day and was the first to both make and keep it holy.
---AlwaysOn on 9/29/07

I've said it before and I say it again. Before the law was given men of God always understood murder,lieing,stealing etc. was a sin and stayed clear of such things. When people tell me "you are following the law because you stay clear of sin" I ask them "was Abraham following the law?" Why did Jesus obey 9 of the 10 comandments and break the Sabbath if we no longer need to follow the other commandments? Are we not to follow his example?
---Matthew_from_LA on 9/29/07

People will say "All you need to do is love your neighbor and God now, and not the commandments thought shall not steal, lie etc." My question is how can you follow the commandment to love your neighbor and neglect the commandments that show you what sinning against your neighbor is? If you lie,steal commit adultery etc. against your neighbor than you don't love your neighbor. You must stay clear of sinning against your neighbor in order to love them.
---Matthew_from_LA on 9/29/07

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I get so upset and disgusted when people say I don't have to follow the commandments thought shall not lie or steal etc. Really? How can you love your neighbor if you are free to lie,steal and commit adultery against your neighbor? It's nonsense.
---Matthew_from_LA on 9/29/07

No - they have not changed. While we, as Christians, are under grace, we still have an obligation to the law. Keep in mind that while we don't work FOR our salvation, we DO work BECAUSE of our salvation and this includes obeying the laws of God.
---WIVV on 9/29/07

Lee, the 10 Commandments being the centerpiece to the Mosaic Law does not make them the Mosaic Law. They are still the centerpiece. God did not retract adultery law or any of the other 9, so why do you isolate and violate the Sabbath, the one Commandment God asks us to remember? Ex 20:8

Are you calling the 10 Commandments or any part of it the "ministry of death"?
---Geoff on 9/28/06

In many ways the old system lead to death, especially the death of an innocent lamb (2 Cor. 3:7). The new system starts from death, the precious Lamb of God, but leads to life through faith in Him. Both the OT & NT believers were required to have faith in the same antitype-Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world-Jn 1:29.
---Geoff on 9/28/06

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Zimba -
2. Jn 15:10 Greek entole refers to Christs commandments to love; not any of the 603 OT commandments.
Acts 24:14 refers to law. see 1 Cor. 9;21, Paul was Jewish and very careful to observe Jewish law. He had Timothy circumcised (Acts 16:3) in order to avoid disputes despite the fact that he preached against circumcision. 1 Cor. 7:18
---lee on 9/26/06

Zimba -
1. The main disadvantage with SDAs is that they lack scholarship when it comes to Scripture and depend heavily upon Ellen White and the KJV for their interpretations.
Mk. 7:8-9 commandment is greek entole and does not refer to OT law.
1 John 2:3-4 commandments is Greek entole more accurately refers to the teachings to love God & neighbor (see Romans 13:9)
Rev. 14:12 greek entole; does not refer to Mosaic laws.
Mt. 5:17 refers only to Christ fulfilling the law;
---lee on 9/26/06

jana - you simply cannot separate the 10 Commandments from the Mosaic law. They really are the centerpiece of the Mosaic law. The OT refers to the 10 Commandments as the covenant that God made with Israel - see Ex. 34:28, Deut. 4:13, 10:4.
As to your question on obeying God, I have already answered you that God will not retract His word and bade us to go back under the Mosaic law. It was of a ministry of death (2 Cor. 3:7) that became obsolete (Hebr 8:13) and replaced with the New Covenant.
---lee on 9/26/06

MARK 7:8-9
1 JOHN 2:3-4
REV 14:12
MATT 5:17
JOHN 15:10
ACTS 24:14
---ZIMBABWEAN on 9/26/06

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Geoff: There still around. Now they are written with the finger of God on our Hearts. I mean Christians that is.
---kathr4453 on 9/26/06

Lee,you have a mixed up convoluted idea about God's Laws. An orange is an orange, Moral Laws of God are just that. Only ten of them whereas the Mosaic Laws consists of about 600 civil laws with the ceremonial laws included. The Ceremonial Laws are done away at the cross. Are you still going to deny God's 10 laws? Lee brother, you still havent replied to my previous question. If God stands before you and say OBEY MY 10 COMMANDS,will you say YES or NOT
---jana on 9/26/06

Hope our original moderator who made the post is still around. On 10/11/05 he said "Yes, the 10 Commandments are the Moral Law and I agree they have not changed because God doesn't change. Are there only 4 of us that believe God's moral laws don't ever change? Where are the other Christians?"

Well, I'm here; I agree - you have my vote!
---Geoff on 9/25/06

bro Zimba - James 2:10 mentions the WHOLE law - "For whosoever shall keep the WHOLE law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
The WHOLE law is just that - moral, ceremonial, civic and whatever else there may be. So if you disobey any of the ceremonial laws of the OT, you are held GUILTY of all the laws.
Fortunately Christ paid the penalty for all our sins on the Cross, no matter what law was violated.
---lee on 9/24/06

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Jerry - *Your mind is an amazing mixture of self-contradiction.*
Your problem is that you do not even know what a contradiction is;
1. something illogical: something that has aspects that are illogical or inconsistent with each other
2. opposing statement: a statement, or the making of a statement, that opposes or disagrees with somebody or something
But what I hear from you is basically the same base accusations the sabbath keeper throw at the Lord.
---lee on 9/23/06

Jerry, you're absolutely right. The Law is never divided into categories (moral, ceremonial, civil, dietary, etc) by the Scriptures themselves. Neither is there any scriptural basis for separating the Ten Commandments from the whole 613 and making only the Ten perpetual. All 613 commandments are a single unit comprising the Law of Moses. And this is the Law discussed by the Apostolic writers when they tried to teach the Gentiles what sin is (1 Jn 3:4, Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7, etc)
---Ben on 9/23/06

Lee: Your mind is an amazing mixture of self-contradiction. Your statement "the division of the Old Covenant laws into moral and ceremonial is really not biblical and required an artificial forcing of the context to do so" is followed immediately by the statement "the Sabbath is a ritual [ceremonial] law." How long did you argue with yourself after writing that?
---jerry6593 on 9/23/06

brethren lee,
why remove only the Sabbath on the commandments of the Lord, READ JAMES 2:10, thats the unique part of it all from creation, It was there before Jews and gentiles. "Remember the Sabbath to keep it Holy"
---ZIMBABWEAN on 9/22/06

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greetings,God is law .God changeth not.God is "do unto others as you would have others do unto you".the highest moral value is to ;do good,love your neighbor,love your brother as yourself,love your brother as i have loved you .God is the time less law giver,these are timeless laws that will never change since they were revealed in the eternal past and will stand in the eternal future.
---earl on 9/22/06

(7)does scripture prove the Ten Commandment Law of God is eternal? In contrast, does Scripture demonstrat the Law of Moses was added as a temporary plan to remedy violation of God's Law? Did God ordain the second division of Moses' Law to remain in force only until Christ established the New Covenant at the cross? Does the NC contain the 10 Commandments? The Bible makes it clear and simple to understand and there is nothing more important for this generation to grasp.
---jana on 9/22/06

(7) Jesus also said,"Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old(Mt13:52) There are spiritual treasures in the Old and NTs. The error of tossing out the OT has closed the door to understanding the eternal nature of the 10commandment Law of God.OT reveals God's Law in force before He handed it down in stone on MtSinai."handwriting ordinances nailed to the cross was the Law of Moses
---jana on 9/22/06

(6)the OT contains a volume of equipping Scripture 5-6times larger in content than the NT. It's impossible to interpret one without the other-the OT contains the New and the NT explains the Old. You will find Jesus Christ in every book of the Bible 4he is theWord.He said to His disciples,"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fullfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me"(Lk24:44)
---jana on 9/22/06

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5)(2Tim3:16-17)all Scripture's given by inspiration of God; Paul referring to Old Testament, still, his statement's also true of the NT. His ref; was inspired 2be inclusive, not exclusive. God never contradict Himself when He shared His divine thoughts with the many writers of bible.Some claim 2be NT Christians, unfortunately, some taught these well intentioned believers that NT cancelled the teachings of the Old. Paul disagrees and said "God inspired "all Scriptures 2equip us 4good works.
---jana on 9/22/06

4)it will disappear once we examine and understand the differences between these laws.Paul,in Colossians said Christ nailed to the cross "handwritings and ordinances" which stood against us. A misguided interpretation has some people claiming Paul taught the Law of God is obsolete. Paul never intended 4the ordinances against us to be confused with the Ten Commandments.Bible writers dont oppose one another. Contradictions stem from pulling Scripture out of context and misapplying it.
---jana on 9/22/06

3)Yet, he was also inspired 2write this:"Do we then make void the law thru faith? Certainly not. On the contrary, we establish the law. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good Rom 3:31,7:12. You will know that in Gal3:10-13, he referred 2the Law of Moses, in Rom3:31 and 7:12, he referred 2the 10 commandment Law of God, established in our hearts by faith. there's a cloud of confusion that overshadows Paul's writings however,
---jana on 9/22/06

2) Why is there so much confusion? Bible writers often use the singular word "law" to refer to either the Law of God or the Law of Moses. If we dont have a clear understanding of their different purposes, it's easy to miss the context of the writings and arrive at misguided conclusions. e.g.Paul wrote: "for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. Noone is justified by the law. The law is not of faith,Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law"Gal3:10-13
---jana on 9/22/06

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eloy, there are 2 Laws of God: a) The Ten Commandments or "Two tablets of the Testimony" also known as the Moral Law, the Law of Love, and the Decalogue.
b)The Law of Moses, the "Book of the Law," or :Book of the Covenant", also known as the Ceremonial Law and the Mosaic Law.A dim understanding of the differences between the two has led many sincere hearted Christians into confusion - particularly in interpreting N/T refences to the law.
---jana on 9/22/06

Lee-I'm Jewish, I have studied under Jewish scholars, you are wrong. No jewish scholar feels that the sabbath is a ritual law. Its a mo'ed (appointed time). Unless you know what your talking about don't post as if to speak on behalf of my people because I WILL call you out on it.
---Jeff on 9/22/06

ZIMBABWEAN -the division of the Old Covenant laws into moral and ceremonial is really not biblical and required an artificial forcing of the context to do so. In any case, the Sabbath is a ritual law as even Jewish scholars recognize that.
---lee on 9/21/06

Jerry the Book of the law / Book of the covenant that was placed aside the Ark was merely the expanded version of the Covenant God made with Israel on Sinai. They really served as an interpretation or expansion of the Ten Commandments. Note that the Sabbath commandment was reduced to mere sign (Ex. 31:17).

In any case remember that the 10 commandments were written on stone and referred to as a ministry of death in the 2 Cor. 3:7
---lee on 9/21/06

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jana, there are 2 laws within the Holy Bible, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant: The O.T. Levitical-Mosaic Law from B.C.; and the N.T. Judaic-Messianic Law from A.D. These 2 laws are contrary to each other. The O.T. is pro-death sentence, an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and life for life; but the N.T. is pro-life sentence, forgive the offender, when struck turn the other cheek, and love your enemies. You cannot serve both laws. Please read Matthew 5:21,22,27,28,31-39,43,44 to see the difference
---Eloy on 9/20/06

See comparison,Ceremonial(laws of Moses)&10C
a- Exodus 31:18 wriiten on Stone (10C)
a- 2Chronicles 35:12 Written in Book (Moses)
b- Deuteronomy 10:5 Put IN ark ( 10C)
b- Deuteronomy 31:26 Put BY ark (moses)
c- Psalms 19:7 Law of God Perfect (10C)
c- Hebrews 7:18-19 Not perfect (law Moses)
d- Colosians 2:14-17 Law Moses(ceremonial)
d- Romans 12:7 is good(law of God)
e- Galatians 2:14-17 nailed to cross (Moses)
e- Matthew 5:17 fulfil(10C)
---ZIMBABWEAN on 9/20/06

No, Lee; Once again, you are wrong and Jana is right. Deu 31:24-26 clearly states that only Moses writings were placed in the SIDE of the ark. God's handwriting on tables of stone, however were placed INSIDE the ark.
Heb 9:4 "the ark of the covenant .... WHEREIN was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the TABLES of the covenant;"
The mercy seat represents God's throne, and HIS Ten Commandment Law within is the foundation of His government.
---jerry6593 on 9/20/06

eloy, you cant go with the NT only. Its like having Christ's bottom torso only and not the top. Did you not know that He is t he Word and you must not divide it NONONONO! He is the Word, The Law and it is Him/Jesus Christ the reason for our talk here. C'mon brothers Jesus is the New and Old Testament.
---jana on 9/20/06

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read again Lee, and stop teaching our readers the teachings of the devil..what have you got against the 10 commands of God. When He says "If you love me, obey my commands", it is just that. Obey it or not. You mess around with words and make it difficult for others to understand. He made it just simple."If you love me, OBEY IT"
---jana on 9/20/06

.alan, Greater? Christ holds Salvation, and all who receive him also hold Salvation, and all who receive our gospel also will hold Salvation. If we wouldn't give the gospel to others, others would remain lost without Salvation. "It is enough for THE DISCIPLE that he BE AS HIS MASTER, AND THE SERVANT AS HIS LORD. HE THAT RECEIVES YOU RECEIVES ME, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." Matthew 10:25,40; Ephesians 5:30.
---Eloy on 9/20/06

no---malachi 3:6 God doesnt change
---joe on 9/19/06

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

I believe that you will find that the "book of the law" contains what we know as the 5 books of Moses and contained the 10 Commandments found within the ark of the Covenant.

Jana wants to believe that the book of the law contained only ceremonial and civic laws but again she is wrong.
---lee on 9/19/06

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Eloy .. You indicated earlier that the person who hands over the prize is more important than the one who donated it.
If that is the case, you, in passing on the message of salvation, are more important than Jesus, Who sacrificed His life for our salvation.
I'm sure you don't claim that.
---alan8869_of_UK on 9/19/06

It would appear that Eloy got his information from the Mel Brooks movie, History of the World.
---Randy on 9/19/06

ELOY, YOUR ABSOLUTeLY WRONG. Moses didnt write the 10 commandments of God. He wrote the ceremonial and the civil laws in a book. Deut31:24,25,26and read on it was put at the side of the ark. Ex32:15,16..Ex34:28 laws God wrote with his fingers and placed in the middle of the ark,Deut10:5 signifying the laws on the tabels of our hearts
---jana on 9/19/06

Eloy. Next time the post man delivers a gift to you make sure you thank him (the post man) and don't bother thanking the person who bought and posted the gift. Your comparison with something being bought in a store is laughable. We pay for what we get in a store,it then becomes ours, we don't just take it from the cashiers hand for nothing and hand it over to someone else. The person handing over my cake would be 'delivering' it, just like the postman, not giving it. Moses delivered the 10 commandments.
---M.P. on 11/9/05

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Alan, until you take up YOUR cross, and follow after Jesus, then you will never know what it is to be a TRUE GIVER to anyone. Every true born-again Christian is the giver of the Christ's life to others, else your faith is completely dead.
---Eloy on 11/9/05

Eloy ... you are right that physically the person who hands the cake over is the "giver".
But spiritually, the person who "gave" that cake is the one who bought the ingredients and put the effort into baking it. Giving requires some generosity, or even sacrifice, and definite intention. Being the messenger does not make you the true giver.
---alan8869_of_UK on 11/8/05

I agree with you, Casey. What God considered wrong (or right in some cases)in the O.T. is just as wrong (or right) today and always. The single constant in all of our lives is God Himself.
---Heather on 11/8/05

IMHO, God has allowed the validity of the 10 Commandments to come into question on purpose. If He had not, none of us would be investigating the Bible and comparing scripture to scripture. I know we all stand on either side of the fence and hurl stones, but this discussion is a VERY healthy one to have... and to keep having! For me, I am thoroughly convinced the 10 Commandments (moral law) were not changed by God, or destroyed, but highlighted and expounded upon!
---casey on 11/8/05

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M.P., on the contgrary, the person handing you the cake is indeed the giver, giving it to you personally from their hand to your hand. Just as when you obtain something from the store and hand it to another, the store is not the giver, but the person whom hands it to the receiver. Are you able to dispense from groundless faultfinding, and instead adhere to the proposed subject at hand.
---Eloy on 11/8/05

Eloy, isn't what you have said exactly what I said? that God gave the laws to Moses and Moses passed them on to man. That does not make Moses the 'law-giver' in the same sense that Jesus was. I could bake you a cake and give it to someone else to give to you. I would still be the 'giver' of that cake. The person handing it on to you would not be the 'giver'.
---M.P. on 11/8/05

M.P., please read the Bible, Moses gave us the Law, that Law which was given to him by God. God dictated to Moses the commands, and Moses wrote them down and delivered them to the people to obey. Please read Exodus 34:27,28. Even as Christ also gave us the law from God. M.P., every single man and woman of God preaches what God tells us to say. Please read Romans 10:14,15.
---Eloy on 11/8/05

M.P. thank you for your compliments, but as i said before, your mnisjudgments of me are in error because i have the mind of Christ.
---Eloy on 11/8/05

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Sis M, i am under the NEW Covenant of Christ, and led by the Holy Ghost. Jesus frequently said, "You all have heard that said to them from the beginning: but I say to you..." So he puts down the O.T. law, and then establishes his second Please read Matthew 5:21,22,27,28,31-39,43,44. And hopefully you will see the big difference between the O.T. laws from Moses and N.T. laws from Christ.
---Eloy on 11/8/05

Eloy, Moses was only a 'law-giver' in the sense that he passed on to the people the laws which GOD had GIVEN to him. The laws were God's laws, not Moses' laws. You seem to be extremely confused on many issues.
---M.P. on 11/8/05

Eloy, you are dangerously borderlining on blasphemy. Moses was a man- a servant of God, just like you or I. Jesus was and IS the holy son of the living God. He was NOT just a "law-giver" The word of God is infalible, and NOWHERE in it did Jesus ever tell you that 2/3rds of it was old outdated stuff that you should just ignore. I shutter to think what kind of teaching you have been up under.
---Sis_M on 11/7/05

M.P., Moses and Christ were Law-givers. Without going into specifics, generally everything that came B.C. is abolished, and everything that came from the mouth of Christ is currently inforce: ie, the O.T. is pro death sentence- take an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life; but the N.T. is anti capital punishment- when struck turn the other cheek, forgive the offender, love your enemy; etc. You cannot serve the O.T. Laws together with the N.T. Laws, for they are contrary to each other.
---Eloy on 11/7/05

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Eloy, Moses did not give us any commandments. God gave us commandments via Moses. That is very different. From your answer I am assuming that you are saying the 10 commandments are the ones that God has abolished, is that correct? So which new laws are now in their place? What do you mean by 'the truth of His laws has changed'?
---M.P. on 11/7/05

God does not change, but the truth is his laws indeed have changed. Jesus said, "If you love me, MY commandments keep", he did not say, MOSES' commandments keep.
---Eloy on 11/7/05

Eloy would you tell us exactly which old moral laws have been abolished and which new ones are now in their place?
---M.P. on 11/7/05

Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever.

I am the Lord God and I change not (Malachi 3:6).
---wes on 11/6/05

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Yes, they have changed. Christ has given us New moral laws, and the Old moral laws are abolished. Thus, the New Testament is given to us in his blood, and his New law is established forever by his resurrection.
---Eloy on 11/6/05

Totally agree that God's law reflects His holiness and we who walk in the spirit are being transformed into the image of Christ to reflect that holiness.

Ro 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
---lee on 11/6/05

No, they never change. For His moral laws is really a part of who He is.
---Lupe2618 on 10/20/05

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