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What Is Your Ratpure Stand

As conerns the rapture; Are you Pre-tribulation , Mid-tribulation or Post -tribulation?

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 ---mima on 1/2/06
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I think the "rapture" was a figment of Paul's vivid imagination! Can you name one of his prophecies that have materialized in the last 2,000 years?
---1st_cliff on 2/16/08

Concerning the escape from the wrath of God, the plain scriptures teaches that we will escape the wrath of God, called The Day of The Lord, but it doesn't indicate we will not experience the Desolation of Daniel, which is the tribulation. We will be "caught away" at the visible appearing of Jesus Christ before the wrath of that day is dispersed. It is important to be ready for "any" tribulation that comes our way and look for our salvation through Jesus Christ.
---jon on 5/24/06

As far as the topic concerning Paul's authority and support by the apostles; see Apostle Peter's writings in 2 Peter 3:14 - 18.
---jon on 5/24/06

(contin from previous post)

We will be "Caught Up" and changed at that moment with the Dead in Christ and will escape the Wrath of God to Follow.

---jon on 5/24/06

Keep the following inmind:
The Rapture teaching is only found since the 1830's through teachers, such as Darby (who is to said to have received the basis of this teaching from a sickly girl who had a Vision from a spiritual being about this "Secret" catching away of believers) We are promised to be kept from the Wrath of God, not the desolation of Daniel, and the Wrath of God is the Day of The Lord, which is the second Appearing of Jesus visibly.
(contin next post) Jon
---jon on 5/24/06

All I can challenge to those who do not understand the true significane of the Bible's teaching on the Second Return of Jesus Christ in like manner of his ascension is this - one who does not inticipate to overcome all tribulations when tribulations arrive in their lives may find themselves shaken and possiblly fall away because of a "different" hope than what the scriptures teaches.

(continued next post) Jon
---jon on 5/24/06

As far as Paul's teaching of believers putting off this mortal body and being changed with the dead in Christ into a uncorruptible body at the appearing of Jesus Christ, along with the hows and seasons correlates with Matt 24:4 - 31. Compare 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16 to Matt 24:31; Compare 2 Thess 3:3 to Matt 24:12 and 24:15; Compare 2 Thess 3:10 - 12 to Matt 24:11.
(contin next post) Jon
---jon on 5/24/06

I am a pantrib, I believe we get into debates that are God's business and not ours. God has His prophetic calender set and we cannot alter the calender or events that are going to happen by arguing or doubting or taking scripture twisting it to what we want it to say rather than what it really says. as far as those who think we are going through the tribulation I have a great tribulation package to sell you, just like the y2k package sold in most retail stores
---William on 5/7/06

I believe that it will be post. 2Thess 2. The church is currently and consistently going apostate/falling away. The man of sin is still to be revealed and the final abomination of desolation is yet to be. Should we be worried? No!
"When you see these thing begin to come to pass lift up your eyes for your redemption draweth nigh"
---douglas on 2/1/06

Elder, I agree. Too many make idols out of what is supposed to bring us to worship Him. They worship the gift rather than the giver of it. Whenever a "gift" is more emphasized in a congregation than Christ, there is a HUGE problem. Also, just because one is gifted doesn't mean he/she has good character. I believe credibility lies in ones character... not ones "gift." So, perhaps we're on the same page here??
---daphn8897 on 2/1/06

It depends on your definition of tribulation. Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you, that in me you all might have peace. In the world you all will have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33.
---Eloy on 2/1/06

I believe in the rapture of the church (the body of Christ) before the great tribulation. The new testament confirms it. I read the KJV.
---Mary on 1/31/06

daphn8897 Praising the Lord, raising hands and being excited about what the Lord has/is doing in not what I'm speaking of.
Some of those who jump the highest walk the lowest when they land.
Some like to make an idol of what gift they think they have when any gift should lead others to Christ.
---Elder on 1/31/06

I believe we will be caught up before the tribulation according to scripture.(2Corinthians 5:10)
---Rickey on 1/31/06

Elder, While I agree that many pentacostal and charismatic churches misuse the gifts of the Spirit, should that mean disuse? I believe the gifts are for today, not at our beck and call - but as He gives and manifests - for His, not our, glory. Also, I believe God does things decently and in order... basically, we don't hang from the chandeliers in my church but you will see raised hands. My family of churches is Sovereign Grace Ministries - we're kind of charismatic presbyterians.
---daphn8897 on 1/31/06

daphn8897 you must ask yourself what the signs gifts were given for. Then to who were they given and for what purpose.
Sory in taking so long I didn't know you had asked.
---Elder on 1/31/06

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It will not affect anyone's eternal destination, nor does any position create subsequent errancy of Scripture problems.

Like the gifts, pretrib is a theological issue, and depends upon what systermatic theology we have been taught.

Cut others some slack, and reserve for yourself the right to be wrong in TRIVIAL interpertations of when and how.
---John on 1/9/06

Elder, just to be a pest... what makes you think the sign gifts have passed away? I know missionaries who've been on the mission field and seen the miraculous things, such as healing miracles, understanding a language they'd never been taught, as well as praying in "tongues" only to learn that they were praying in the language of the people to whom they were sent. Yes, canon is closed - but not because of the ceasing of the manifest gifts of the Spirit. (told you I was going to be pesty) :o)
---daphn8897 on 1/9/06

Cliff those Billions that accept your posted group do not have the evidence of Scripture support that Paul does.
The sign gifts never followed them and could not because the cannon of Scripture was complete and the sign gifts passed away.
We have completed Scripture to guide us in our faith and practice. None of the above you spoke of identify with revealed Scripture Truth.
Show me one Moses that can speak to a rock and get water. You can't!
Don't strain at a Knat and swallow a Camel.
---Elder on 1/9/06

I'd like to believe in the pre-trib gathering, but I sometimes wonder since no one knows ... only God. I suspect too, that it's possible for a mid-trib gathering, to see exactly how strong we are in God!
---Nellah on 1/8/06

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Elder; Cliff is nobody,just a voice crying in the wilderness. What I "think" really dosen't matter. It's what "is" that does! If ,like Ulrika says, we accept Paul's writing as inspired because Ananias "said so" at least 10million say Joseph Smith was a true prophet! A billion say Mohamed was too (I don't believe either was) but it's the same logic! Stay with Christ's words and the OT prophets and you have it right! IMHO agape
---1st_cliff on 1/8/06

Who cares? The "caught up" only occurs concurrently with the second coming of Jesus. It is not secret, as it is like lightning flashing from east to west, and every eye shall see it. We (converted Christians) who are alive will meet with the newly-resurrected dead in the air and evermore be with Jesus. All our tribulations will be over at that point. Why be concerned about pre- and post-trib since they are completely irrelevant at the time of rapturo.
---jerry6593 on 1/8/06

Cliff it is easy to see who Paul was confirmed by his Sign Gifts.
Who is Cliff?
1. Rejector of Paul who wrote most of the New Testament.
2. Rejector of the Trinity because you can't understand it.
3. A "fan" of a writer involved in cultic practice.
4. One who has refrained from attending Church.
5. One who learned to read at an early age (but has yet to understand).
6. One who is loved by us on ChristiaNet. That is why we keep trying to show you but you refuse to see.
---Elder on 1/7/06

1 Tim 3:16 All Scripture given by inspiration of GOD, it is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION, in RIGHTEOUSNESS:
17 That the MAN of GOD may be perfect. THOROUGHLY furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS.
---Doug_Fowler on 1/7/06

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1 Tim 3:16 All Scripture given by inspiration of GOD, it is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION, in RIGHTEOUSNESS:
17 That the MAN of GOD may be perfect. THOROUGHLY furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS.
---Doug_Fowler on 1/7/06

1st Cliff, Acts 9:4-6,15 Lord said unto Ananias about Paul, "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 22:7,8 \ 26:14-18
My Bible says the book of Acts was written by Luke, but it tells allot about Paul. Paul was a missionary and am apostle of Jesus, but not a disciple. Most of the writers of the Bible were not his disciples, and never met Jesus. That does not mean what they wrote was not inspired by God? No.
---Ulrika on 1/7/06

Ulrika; I have no "inspiration" but I did learn to read at a very early age! Because a comitee of humans put Paul's writing in the bible canon,that automaticaly makes it "God's word" is that what you"re saying? John Peter Matthew etc. knew Jesus intimately and wrote His words.(you can take that to the bank!)
---1st_cliff on 1/7/06

1st Cliff, Paul's writings are in the Bible, just like John's, Peter's, Matthrew's, Mark's... Just because you don't want to believe what Paul wrote, that does not make us all wrong and you right. Are you the one, who thinks your words are inspired? So you are inspired and Paul was not? How full of one's self can one get.
---Ulrika on 1/7/06

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nvB I think Cliff sounds like a Biblical Universalist, since her is using parts of the Bible to support his non-acceptance of the Trinity.
It would be unfair to call him Unitarian Universalist, because that is a very different church, which believes that all religions are OK, and thus it has no basis in Christianity at all.
---alan8869_of_UK on 1/7/06

NVB: For many years I attended "Church" (various) Each time they insist on spouting ,as truth, doctrines that were IMHO not scripture based, but handed down tradition! I cannot force myself to believe the trinity (a mystry that make no sense)only introduced as feature of worship later (352ad),not known for the 1st 4,000 years! That fact alone should make it suspect.
---1st_cliff on 1/7/06

At the last trump...The remnant hid until the end..We which are alive and remain.....Praise God..
---Lynn on 1/6/06

Cliff, do attend ANY church or are these thoughts of your own? I'm curious as to what churches teach what you believe, especially the Trinity question. It sounds Uniterian Universalist.
---NVBarbara on 1/6/06

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Cliff, I stand corrected. I did find a very interesting site that gives an historical overview of how we came to have our current English Bibles if anyone is interested. My signature is my address on this site.
---daphn8897 on 1/6/06

You're right Daphne; King James used many schollers in 1611 but they were translators not bible writers, nor did they fix the canon at that time!
---1st_cliff on 1/6/06

Cliff, Yes I do happen to have the information you mention - pretty much anyone who owns a Bible does. Many Bibles contain a general history about that process. Those involved were well known Biblical scolars of their time, commissioned by King James - hence the King James Bible. Cliff, I sense there's a deep seeded bitterness concerning some abuse of God's word possibly coupled with a personal/physical abuse against you. His word is good - in spite of how some misuse it.
---daphn8897 on 1/5/06

RE: rapture. Since when did English-speaking believers revert to Latin? LOL

Positions on the Second Coming are theological, not Scriptural. Each position is filtered through a framework of dispensations, or a covenant on the other side.

The fact is that Jesus WILL come again, as he promised.

I tell people to not look for the signs, for they change, rather listen for the trumpets which can come before the period in this sentence.
---John on 1/5/06

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Daphne; What do you mean "canonized and judged by very specific and stringent criteria"? Do you even know "by whom?" are you going by hearsay or can you name names of those that God chose to accept or reject a book? How did God communicate with them?
---1st_cliff on 1/5/06

The word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo", which is a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" thats found in 1 Thess. 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up - it's all the same thing.
---Ann5758 on 1/5/06

Rapture is latin for "caught up in the clouds"
---mike on 1/5/06

Hey... just a note here - going back to the "rapture" question. That word does not appear, in the context used in the question, in the Bible (at least not in the transalations to which I have access). The references are to a "wisking away", which we now refer to as the "rapture."
---daphn8897 on 1/5/06

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I am going pre-tribulation with the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ.
---wes on 1/5/06

After further review, the penalty against Molly is overturned. Evidence was inconclusive. Nice litigation, continue Molly.
---mike on 1/5/06

LOL, I wasn't CALLING him one, I asked him if he WAS one silly!

Seriously though, I personally know homosexuals that believe they are Christians, and that is their chief argument. That if Jesus didn't say it, it isn't legitimate. Then, they turn right around and say that all of the scriptures about homosexuality were confused in translation, and that's not what the original text says (how convenient)
---Molly on 1/5/06

Cliff, your arguments are quite flawed. Scripture was canonized, judged by very specific and stringent criteria. Perhaps you should do a little more research before attempting to debunk 50% of the NT. I think your arguments are based in a fear that your lifestyle might have to change. It is truly hard to be humble and admit sin. Have asked God to reveal Himself to you - that you might be saved?
---daphn8897 on 1/5/06

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Ulrika: Phil 2.9 Says God exhalted Jesus to a "higher" position,vs 10. "that every knee would bow" His Father allows Him to be worshipped! The only proof that Paul's writings were "inspired" is "because he said so! "How many other writers claim "inspiration" What is your "benchmark" for judging? because he sounds sincere? John, 50% of Nostradamus' prophecies came true too and he didn't claim divine inspiration.
---1st_cliff on 1/4/06

Sorry but I could care less, because we need to go out and save souls, are reallying going to hell.
---willow on 1/4/06

I know someone who said he was neither pre, mid nor post Trib- he was Pan-Trib...whenever the Rapture happens, it'll all pan out in the end. I think it's funny, & I've never forgotten it.
---Ann5758 on 1/4/06

I believe that the church will be caught up before the tribulation period because the 7yr. period is when we will appear before the judgement seat of Christ and give an account for every work. (II Corinthians 5:10) I Thessalonians 4:16-17
---Rickey on 1/4/06

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1st Cliff, So are you saying Jesus is God now? Logos does that mean with a little g? If so Jesus is just a "god" and we should not worship him? That seems to be what you have said. You know what, I would much rather believe Paul's writings, than yours.
2Timothy 3:16
---Ulrika on 1/4/06

Cliff I do hope I have you wrong but it sure appears that you do not accept the inspiration of Scripture. Paul or no other writer wrote what they wanted. They were guided by the Holy Spirit. He gave them liberty to tell the story in their words but the story was Gods. So God said through Paul............IE, Gods Word, ect. Do you agree?
---Elder on 1/4/06

Glad to know that I am not intelligent enough to pick which parts of my KJV that I think are true. I guess I will just believe all of it. and p.s. !!! FOUL !!! on Molly. Name calling - 5 yard penalty, repeat 1st down.
---mike on 1/4/06

cliff. There are literally hundreds of Pauls prophecies that come true on a daily basis. Here's just one. "Those that sow sparingly will reap sparingly and those that sow bountifully will reap bountifully". That's prophecy. There are hundreds of those, I've lived them and have no problem beleiving Paul was a true preacher. Now can you show us any prophecy he gave that is false?
---john on 1/4/06

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OK folks, lets all rip everything out of our bibles except for WORDS IN RED, since Cliff has informed us that everything else in the word is useless junk that shouldn't be taken seriously. Cliff, pardon me, but- are you a homosexual by any chance? Because, that's the argument THEY use
---Molly on 1/4/06

Elder; You got me wrong here,I said I like some of Campbell's writings,but I also like some of Paul's too. There are a lot of good writers out there but it dosen't make their writings "scripture"! Pastors will quote Paul's writings and say "God's word tells us..." excuse mre but it's Paul's word. Jesus was/is the Logos not Paul!Luke 24.27 "and beginning with Moses and the prophets He explaind "all" the scriptures.." Gen to Mal.!
---1st_cliff on 1/3/06

When it comes to this issue of Pre, Post, or Mid trib, I don't care. What I care about is that I am walking with the Lord today, and will continue to walk with Him tomorrow. Whatever tomorrow brings, He will give me grace for. I also pray that my children would walk with the Lord. When the rapture comes, I just want my loved ones to be there, no matter when it occurs.
---Madison on 1/3/06

Cliff since you don't accept Paul's writing how do you accept Campbell's? Does he fit in with your agenda better?
It would be Gods imagination not Paul's. An Eye Doctor told a patient, "If you miss Heaven it won't be because you needed glasses." I seriously think it is time to review your beliefs with the written word. Each year we are closer to standing before God to give an account. God spoke of 70 years on this planet anything more is Grace and shouldn't be spit back into Gods face.
---Elder on 1/3/06

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Cliff, It appears, at least to me, that you do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture. I suspect that your attempt to discredit Paul's writings is an attempt to discredit the entirety of scripture. This is a dangerous place. I am certain that God is big enough to have made sure that the Bible and its truth is intact. Perhaps you should evaluate what your core issue is with Paul's writings - does it conflict with a lifestyle choice you've made? or that of a loved one?
---daphn8897 on 1/3/06

Elder; I really don't expect Paulites to agree with me ,especially if I say something that sounds unfavorable about their leader!
---1st_cliff on 1/3/06

I am definitely pre-trib...we are promised escape from the things that are to come. Also, on the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus spoke to Elijah and Moses. They, I believe, are representations of the 2 groups of people who will be with Jesus...those who died and are raised at the Rapture (Moses), and those who are caught up while still alive (Elijah).
---Ann5758 on 1/2/06

cliff, Henoch was the first to be raptured, so it is real and Paul did not fabricate it. The Bible says that as lightning flashes from the East to the West, and in the twinkling of an eye, the Lord will come, and one will be taken and one will be left. The rapture is in both the O.T. and prophesied by Jesus in the N.T. Please read Genesis 5:24; Daniel 12:1-3; Matthew 24:27-44; Luke 21:25-36; John 14:1-3; Revelation 3:10;15:2-4;20.
---Eloy on 1/2/06

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Cliff, will God get fired if He doesn't follow your time table?
---Elder on 1/2/06

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