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The Bible Code

My friends said that it is not right to prove about the Lord mathematically, as it is a matter of faith. How is your view about this?

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 ---Fendy on 1/28/06
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John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. our information comes from hearing the Holy Spirit. Not crystal balls and chicken inards.exzucuh
---Exzucuh on 3/30/06

There is no bible code, but there are several writters getting filthy rich off those that would buy their books.
---Thomas on 3/22/06

Daniel ... as this blog has opened up again, perhaps I can comment on something you said to me earlier "Just because we cannot FULLY comprehend everything about God is *not* the same as saying He is "ignorant of how to properly empoly the principles of reason"
No it is not ... what it is is saying that WE having been granted limited brian power, are unable to employ God's principles of reason.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/28/06

Lupe ...# 1 I was another who said that God is not logical, and I think our use of the word differs. I just cannot imagine that any man would think up and employ the plan/Adam&Eve betrayal of it, (but it was in God's plan) then long wait before escape route involving sacrifice of own son. Any human would have dealt with it differently. Tell me would you have thought of that way of rescuing the species you were punishing?
cont ...
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/28/06

3, But that points to a difference of degree in God's knowledge, not a difference in the kind of logic He uses. Because God is rational, even He cannot reconcile contradictions. I have heard others make that statement and it is important that we understand that God is logical the same as us but His knowledge is much great then ours.
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

2. This kind of thinking or reasoning is fatal to Christianity. Why? If God in fact has a different order of logic whereby what is contradictory to us is logical to Him, then we have no reason to trust a single word of the Bible. Whatever the Bible says to us could then mean its exact opposite to God. In God's mind good and evil may not be oppsites, and the Antichrist might really be Christ. God's superior knowledge allows Him to be able to resolve mysteries that baffle us.
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

Daniel, although this question ended a time back, I want to state something here for the benefit of Eloy saying that God is illogical. Or that He operates with a different form of logic than ours. This concept is convenient when we run into snags in our theology. If we find ourselves affirming both poles of a contradiction, we can alleviate our tension by applealing to God's different order of logic. We can say with ease, "This may all be contradictory to us, but it isn't in the mind of God."
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

daniel, I described the secular point of view, becasue we do need to understand why non-believers find our beliefs foolish. But I though I had made it clear when I said that it makes sense with faith.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/8/06

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For what a man sees, why should he still hope for it? The just shall live by faith. Avoid oppositions of science, so falsly called. Thomas, thou hast seen and believe, Blessed are THOSE who have not seen and yet believe.
---Delmar on 2/8/06

OK Alan, you touched upon some of the reasons for why the UPC belief is incorrect, so that's def. *not* what you believe! But it really was difficult in all you said before for me to know that for sure. As long YOU as a Believer do not call God "illogical" (as Eloy did), then we're in agreement. (Just because we cannot FULLY comprehend everything about God is *not* the same as saying He is "ignorant of how to properly empoly the principles of reason").
---Daniel on 2/7/06

Daniel ... I see you ask whether the was something else to follow my last entry. Perhaps this is where your misunderstanding arises. That "last entry" where I talked about the god being father to himself, was my summary of what I had said in the missing no 2, and yes it was followed by my nos 3 & 4. Perhaps you read it, not appreciating that I explained further in 3 & 4?
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/7/06

Daniel ... # 4 If you read a synopsis of the story as most people hear it "Creation, A&E, Flood, immaculate conception, Baby Jesus, Miracles, Easter, Whitsun (maybe they have heard this)" would you believe a word of it? As Paul says, the world regards this as nonsense. As he and I say, we need faith.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/7/06

Daniel ... # 3
And why did He say "I will send a Comforter" if the Holy Spirit was going to be himself in just another disguise?
Please do read what I said in my first entries ... it is surely clear enough that I was talking about how human reasoning would see "salvation story(which is quite outside human common-sense, and the oddity of the trinity... father and son being the same person... so father is his own son"
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/7/06

Daniel ... # 2 As to my understanding of the Trinity ... I quoted Jesus as saying "I and the Father are one" Now if I accept that, how do you think I believe that Father Son and Holy Spirit are just one person in 3 successive characters? And how does my term "Three in One" mean anything except at the same time. And if Jesus was the only entity, now down here, how did He prat to His father?
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/7/06

Daniel ... # 1 What is the secular logical man to make of the Trinity Three people in one is physically nonsense & defies secular logic.. That is what I was trying to say, as a part answer to the question posed. So is the idea of a man who would condemn his created people only to rescue tham by the sacrifice of his son. Why not just remove the condemnation. Nonsense to secular logic and human reasoning, unless you have faith
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/7/06

[(4)] history; but not in three different "persons" who all existed at the same time, and indeed before time was even created. Again, I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you, but I hope you can see how that's possible now and why Christians need to be sure of this belief!
---Daniel on 2/7/06

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[(3)] ...supposed to be more after that last entry? However, if you really do believe that, then you believe like the UPC on the Trinity. My reference to a bogus coin then, places the J.W.'s heresy on one side and the UPC's heresy on the 'flip-side'. Both are sort of like opposites, but both are equally wrong! See that? So, could you please clarify your "3 in 1" belief, because the UPC says that too, only they mean 1 person who has "different roles" AT DIFFERENT TIMES... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 2/7/06

[(2)] a very poor description of the reality, but the only word we have to use!). So, when YOU said: "salvation story(which is quite outside human common-sense, and the oddity of the trinity... father and son being the same person... so father is his own son. Now that just cannot be!!! Until you believe and have faith, which goes beyond normal human reasoning," can you now see WHY I think you believe "Father and Son" are "the same person"?! Or, was there supposed... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 2/7/06

[(1)] Alan, some background: The UPC believes that there has only been 1 "person" or being we call God. That He was first Father, then Son and now Holy Spirit. That is just as FALSE as the those who believe that the Son is not co-equal in deity with the Father! Thus, Biblical Christians must be careful to point out that when we say 'Jesus is God' we do *not* mean Jesus is ALL there is of God; that He is one of THREE eternally co-existing 'persons' (which as I've said many times is... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 2/7/06

Daniel ...And before you start decrying insurance policies, most companies are honourable and honest. I am glad I had the privilege of working for one of the best. There are sadly a few less reputable ones. One of my prides, as well as it giving me sadness that it should be so, was being sacked by one such company for being too honest.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/6/06

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Daniel ...I sure hope I and others can think logically, otherwise countless people in the UK have insurance policies that do not mean what they say (that was my trade, drafting them), and aircraft will fall out of the sky.
Now that is secular logic ("man's logic")... which God gave us as a tool for living here.
But we cannot apply that to matters of the Spirit, or in "proving", or otherwise, the existence of God.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/6/06

Daniel ... You dumbfound me! I was talking about how secular logic considers what we believe. But in any case, God is Three in One. That is the mystery of it. "I and the Father are One" said Jesus.
& Surely the JWs say Jesus was not God, not that He was the same person as God?
As to the UPC, I have no idea what they believe... see where I live
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/6/06

[-=1=-] Alan: As to all the other comments, you are speaking in way too general terms and never defined 'logic' etc. (there's more than just 1 dictionary). Why do YOU 'think' that you and all other humans even can 'think logically'? Did we create our own brains? No, it's because God made us that way! But we are also sinful, so don't think "perfectly"; esp. in relation to God! Sinners rarely use logic when it comes to God; they simply say He can't exist (because they don't want Him to)!
---Daniel on 2/6/06

Alan, if you believe that the Father and Jesus are the same "person," then you do *not* believe in the Triune nature of God! Are you really of the same belief as the United Pentacostal Church in this regard? You sure seem to be saying that! That would make you like the opposite side of the same bogus coin with J.W.s and such on the other side!
---Daniel on 2/6/06

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Daniel ... there was a no #2 ... but its absence does not matter ... It was really an extension of the salvation story(which is quite outside human common-sense, and the oddity of the trinity ... father and son being the same person ... so father is his own son. Now that just cannot be !!! Until you believe and have faith, which goes beyond normal human reasoning
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/5/06

4 ...I don't see how you can imply that human logic is sinful, etc ... is it sinful to use human locic to build a safe aircraft, or to draft laws that can be understood, and relate to each other? The mistake is to try to use our logic to fathom ot God's actions. To say God is not logical by man's standards does not drag God down, it is saying His logic (or thoughts as you call tham, or plans, or actions) are on a higher plane that our logic can understand.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/5/06

Daniel ...#.. 3 Now human reasoning (and check out the dictionary definition of logic) must say that is rather an improbable story.
How then do we accept it? ... that is because we understand that God does not work according to our limited human rules. and He has His own logical way of thinking and palnning and providing. And look further in the dictionary and you will find the definition of logos is The Word, or second person of the Trinity.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/5/06

Daniel ...#.. 1 I was considering the question which asked about proving God with mathematics. Now that would require mathematical logic. Also ordinary human reasoning would not accept this strange story of a God who makes people, gives them free will to behave badly (sin) then punish them for it but becasuse he really wants them to go to be with him, so he has somehow to forgive them & decides the only way to do that is to allow his only and dear son to be tortured and killed.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/5/06

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Alan, I think we're only dealing with 'semantics' now. When saying "two logics" I believe you really mean "thoughts" as in Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,..." in which case, I must say, No, there are *not* only 'two logics' but rather God's 'Thoughts' versus all the thousands (or more?) of different ways humans have incorrectly thought about God and creation! (I'll attempt a brief summary of Logic and bits of science in relation to God in the near future.)
---Daniel on 2/4/06

Daniel .. I am saying much the same as yoou, and though I made it clear that I am a believer ... see my last words.
There ARE two logics. One is God's, which we do not understand. The other is ours by which we decide human secular action, and by which we design aircraft etc.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/4/06

Alan, I think you're saying the same thing I am, but if you're a Believer you should drop that 'double-minded definition' of "logic" and see that although man can have sinful, faulty, limited and completely illogical thoughts, it's never Biblical to 'drag God down to our level' and call Him illogical "by man's standards!" That's what disgusts me so much with Eloy's statements here; he did not just say 'sinners see God that way' but that he himself called God's Word illogical!
---Daniel on 2/3/06

Elder Daniel Eloy & Co... When I concurred with others that God was not logical. I meant of course that He does not work accordimg to man's logic, therefore we, uising our science and our logic cannot prove that He exists.
The evidence we have ... prophecies fulfilled, virgin birth,miracles, resurrection, ascension, changed lives ... are not logical by man's standards.
It needs faith to accept those things.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/3/06

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When we say God is not logical then we are putting our logic above His logic. We are placing ourselves in judgement of Gods actions. God has never checked in with me to ask if He was doing right or not. I don't see the logic in our great robbery and losing everything we worked for but I know God has a plan and we have seen part of it.
What we should say is His ways are above our ways and our understanding is worldly.
---Elder on 2/3/06

[=3=] I'm well aware of passages that speak of the 'reasonings' of men being vain and foolish; that's because they're sinful! Satan was 'in God's presence' of and knew God created him and had all power, yet still rebelled; satan's illogical. Another definition of it is "to *not* think correctly." God's "thoughts" ('logismos' hence 'logic') are *never* incorrect! The Word ('logos') is The Truth; satan is the rebelling hostile disputer full of contradiction ('antilogias'), not God.
---Daniel on 2/3/06

[=2=]...believing in what you know ain't so." Your problem is that you (and alan too is seems) believe 'logic' equals 'only what current scientific theories can prove.' If that were actually true, there'd be no point in Paul's _reasoning_ "with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2 ff.) nor why Peter asks us to be "ready to make a defense ('apologia')" for why we believe in Christ! Faith goes _beyond_ 'reason and logic,' but it is *not* illogical!
---Daniel on 2/3/06

[=1=] Eloy,, all I can do is shake my head in sorrow over those who'd rather hold onto ridiculously stupid 'pet ideas' which in effect say God is "ignorant of the principles of sound reasoning!" (what 'illogical' means) rather than accept God always has reasons for what He does even if we can't understand them! You're now 'classic examples' of the liberal teaching that faith in Christ need have nothing to do with facts; like the joke about a kid who says, "Faith is... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 2/3/06

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I liked Eloy's Trinity equation: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. I totally agree with that. And don't say that it's an impossible equation. Take a married couple: 1 + 1 can equal 2, 3, 4, 5, or however many. As for there being a hidden code in the Bible- why would God put something within His Word that only certain people can understand? The Word is for everyone, irregardless of level of education.
---Ann5758 on 2/2/06

Eloy is quite right that God is not always logical, and thus his existence cannot be proved by human scientific logic.
I think though, that if He has told us through His commandments and Jesus's teaching to act in a certain way, thise ways must be logical extensions of His way of acting. So He would not act in a way which is contrary to what He has taught us.
---alan8869_of_UK on 2/2/06

daniel, i will continue to speak the truth. God is illogical in the sense that he often acts against logic. It's not logical for a virgin to become pregnant without yoking with a man; it's not logical for a man to walk on top of the water; and it's not logical that plain water can be turned into fermented wine in an instant. Thus, God is often outside of logic.
---Eloy on 2/2/06

[-3-] ...her age, God'-yeah right!) to believe that things would definitely be right whatever happened. He did not call God illogical! PTL God sent Paul to the Bereans and not someone who would confuse them. So, please stop calling what God teaches us 'illogical'. To grasp onto poor analogies in light of what God tells us about Himself and how ignorant we are compared to Him... well, hopefully you will no longer call God illogical at least!
---Daniel on 2/1/06

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[-2-] "a contradiction between conclusions which seem equally logical, reasonable or necessary" and YOU should continue using that word of things you don't understand in Scripture! When something of God APPEARS to be contradictory to our feeble minds, that does *not* make it 'illogical'; it only shows how ignorant we are! Did God allow Abraham to kill his son? No! Abraham already knew enough about God and how stupid he had been not to trust Him earlier ('oh, Sara can't have a son at... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 2/1/06

[-1-] God is so gracious and merciful; one reason we know He's a loving God is that it doesn't take great intellect to be saved! Eloy I hope in this limited space you'll accept I'm trying to be sincere; not slanderous! For someone to be 'illogical' they must be "ignorant of the principles of sound reasoning!" You can mean well, but to call God's words or actions illogical really is blasphemous! Earlier you used the word 'antinomy' which is... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 2/1/06

daniel, I would tell the Bereans that God does many things that are not logical: for example, telling Abraham to kill his only son as a sacrifice to God, or permitting Satan to torture righteous Job and murder all his children, or the prophet Hosea to go marry a whore, etc.
---Eloy on 2/1/06

{*2*} "well, that's ok for you, but to me it means..." and how can you ever say they're wrong?! If interpretation is only 'feelings,' then we have no right to judge something as being against God's Word! There are some very 'difficult' passages in Scripture, but on the whole it exists for us to KNOW a great deal about God and what He would have us do to be saved and live for Him; not 'guess' about all of that. Would you tell the Bereans that God is illogical? I know WHY I believe in His Word.
---Daniel on 1/31/06

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{*1*}Eloy, something is *not* illogical when we have a good reason for accepting it! God told us how Mary was able to conceive Jesus. You're obviously under the false impression that something must be physically repeatable in a 'lab' for it to be logical; not so! I'm glad you believe in God, *but* FAITH in God is *not* _against_ reason! People who don't believe we must use our minds when reading Scripture allow for it to mean almost anything, and that 'thinking' foisters such phrases as... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 1/31/06

Phil, thanks for sharing that. Reminded me of when I was asked to verify the math in _Evolution: Possible or Impossible?_ But the lost are so blind, they still say things like, 'it must have happened, or we wouldn't be here' without even acknowledging the possibility of our Creator!

Linda, I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't take quite that approach! Math & science are not 'totally' of man, since God has blessed us with the necessary reason to use those cognitive tools!
---Daniel on 1/31/06

daniel, believe what you desire, but I believe the truth. You say God never asks us to believe anything illogical, but he does this all the time. If you were a Christian than you must believe that a virgin became pregnant without having any physical intimate relationship with a man, that's illogical. You must believe that omnipresent God became a man, also illogical. That Jesus turned water into wine and walked on top of the water, again all illogical. Etc, etc.
---Eloy on 1/30/06

Am I to understand that the God who created the heavens and the earth and every living thing upon the earth ... the God who's creative power is so awesome and never-ending, scientists tell us the universe continues to grow and expand every day ... this same God who created the supernatural, living Word of God could not put a code in his Word ... JUST FOR FUN? You don't think God is big enough to do that? Don't base your faith on codes but please don't limit God either.

Moderator - DoryLory, the Bible Code is a false teaching. Go do your research to understand the topic.
---DoryLory on 1/30/06

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Higher Mathematics can be your friend if you want to build an case for Intelligent Design using the complexity of the DNA double Helix. It has a finite number of permutations. You can go through a fairly involved computational exercise involving binary power series equaling you permutation; constructing a binary spanning tree of interactions and feeding that into a joint probability model. The result is an extremely minute number that is you probability of creating a perfect human being by random chance.
---Phil_the_Elder on 1/30/06

Part 2

At that pint you are confronted that you have more then 6.589 million human exceptions to your model plus every thing else that has DNA in it that violates the model. So you have just disproved random interaction in DNA genetics. And if it is not random interaction it is controlled interaction and something has to be doing the controlling. Eureka your case for case for Intelligent Design.
---Phil_the_Elder on 1/30/06

Mathematics is the language of Science. Science is man's creation. Proving the existence of God using mathematics is just implying that GOD IS MAN'S CREATION!
---Linda6546 on 1/30/06

[Pt*4]...we would literally have to know about His physical makeup (but He's already told us that He surpasses everything physical!) to know how to relate parts of Him to the whole. No Eloy, you might just as well say 3 apples equals 1 orange! It's impossible to truly represent God as a mere equation, and certainly not as one that is incorrect!
---Daniel on 1/30/06

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[Pt*3] When Scripture says that "God is love" that never means God=love for that would also mean just loving someone makes us God! To say that 'God _is_ the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit' is not mathematics. Just as God is greater than ALL love that has and will ever exist, He is also much more than the shadowy usage of the word 'person' when we apply that word (because we have none other to use!) to our descriptions of the Triune nature of God! In order to apply math to God, ... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 1/30/06

[Pt*2] ...apply numbers to God is utter foolishness, since the Eternally existing One can never be reduced to separate 'pieces' that exist all alone! How dare you say that YOUR thoughts are correct to God when there's no such statement in Scripture! I'd gladly return $1 for each $3 Eloy gives me, since that's his belief! Mathematics was given to us (many would say created by mankind) for certainty! There's only one correct answer for 1+1+1=? and it's def. NOT 1. God is not an equation! [CONT.]
---Daniel on 1/30/06

[Pt*1]Eloy, yes, the Triune nature of God will never be completely understood by us. But unlike YOU, Scripture never teaches us anything that is just plain illogical! When Peter said that "with the Lord one day is _like_ a 1000 years" and vice versa, that is NOT an equation! It's an analogy about God's promises and how people might feel when they don't happen 'soon enough' for them! Quoting what God says about Himself in Scripture is *not* mathematics! Any feeble attempts to... [CONT.]
---Daniel on 1/30/06

Elder, this is def. something I agree with you on! Numerology really isn't much different than astrology; both should be anathema to Believers in Christ! Though I won't say it's sinful to 'play around with' numbers and note coincidences with them, it's been fun for me many times, you should NEVER ever allow numbers to control your thoughts or how you interpret Scripture! That's just as sinful as listening to astrologers whom the Bible clearly condemns.
---Daniel on 1/30/06

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M.P., you got it right. Bless you.
---Eloy on 1/30/06

daniel, 1 + 1 + 1= 1 is correct to God. Let me explain, God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Ghost= God; or the Father in Jesus + the Son in Jesus + the Holy Ghost in Jesus= Jesus. If you measure God with carnal understanding you will not understand him. The trinity is an antinomy, just as 1 day to God equals 1000 years on earth to man. Therefore according to scripture the equations I presented are correct.
---Eloy on 1/30/06

I wonder if what Eloy meant was that 1 God + 1 Son + 1 Holy Ghost = 1 Godhead (the Trinity). Just guessing here.
---M.P. on 1/30/06

Fendy: PLEASE be more specific about what you mean by "prove... the Lord mathematically" I really need to know in order to answer your question. Perhaps your thoughts had nothing to do with math at all, and only whether or not it's ok to use logic when witnessing or if we must always say 'believe it or not' but don't ask me to explain it! The Spirit will often help you decide if someone is mocking God or has 'sincere' questions.
---Daniel on 1/30/06

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Eloy: Personal feelings about the meaning of certain numbers is not mathematics. Your non-equation of 1+1+1=1 is just plain incorrect and a poor analogy; at least use 1x1x1=1 which is correct math. There have been many scientists and mathematicians who believe in God and Jesus without ever compromising the truths of Scripture or the logic they used in their careers and lives. Unfortunately, 'pseudo-scientists' (just like "false prophets") have also watered-down Biblical truth before the world.
---Daniel on 1/30/06

What do you base numerology on?
I can prove that 1/2 of 8 is 3 but that doesn't coincide with truth.
Someone said God's perfect number is 7 based on creation. How do we know it is not 1 based on the life of Christ?
Using numbers to explain God's will is guessing at best.
Proving God's will by basing Scripture on Scripture always works best.
Forget the numbers and explain the Written Truth based upon the Written Truth.
---Elder on 1/30/06

Mima: your response is quite interesting! Email me. I am interested with your method to prove the existence of God using mathematics. I want to know your method. I am a teacher of Physics and so far we don't prove the existence of God in our labs. We understand that God is above science and NO SCIENTIFIC METHOD could ever prove HIS existence.
---Bebet3754 on 1/30/06

It's ok to use math to explain the Lord to others, especially if witnessing to a mathematician. For example, the reclining numeral eight stands for infinity or eternity, and three eights standing up together stands for the trinity; or, the numeral one stands for the exclusive God, and mathematically his trinity can be illustrated as 1 + 1 + 1= 1.
---Eloy on 1/29/06

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God is an exacting perfect being. God gave man the concept and implementation of mathematics. Why then should it be unacceptable that he would use mathematics as another proof of himself. God's proof to me is fulfilled prophecy, which we have many cases of within the holy Scripture. But mathematics could be used also.
---mima on 1/29/06

It is not what the Bible is meant for. You should read the Bible the way it is written, not play games with it.
---Ulrika on 1/29/06

There is no Bible code. Someone skipping around and created people and events. You can do it too.
---Nellah on 1/29/06

Fendy: Though you must have faith to believe in God, it's *not only* a matter of faith. I never gave up using my mind when I became a Christian and consider it quite reasonalbe to be one (at least after the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see the truth)! However, there is no mathematical proof for God's existence! The moderator called this 'Bible Code' since that's probably what you are talking about. Those books are not being truthful; write to me for more info if you really want to know.
---danie9374 on 1/29/06

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Why do you have to prove God mathematically?Are you trying to say that you are to prove the existence of God using mathematics? Or are you trying to say that mathematics could prove that there is a God? Or are you trying to use logic to prove that there is a God! Which one are you planning to do?
---Linda6546 on 1/29/06

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