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Explain Revelation Chapter 7 & 14

Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 both speak of 144,000 people. Do you think that these are the same people, first described as from the '12 tribes of Israel' and second as 'men undefiles by women' or are they 2 entirely separate groups of people?

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 ---emg on 2/28/06
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Do not concern yourself with Revelation. Only be aware of what is to shortly occur. Christians today have enough trouble trying to stay on the right path towards the Kingdom of God what with Satan keeping our minds, eyes, ears, and hearts busy with entertainment, shopping, ipods, computers, work, school, church, bible study, etc instead of walking with God.
---Steveng on 5/21/11

The 144,000 in Rev. 7 & 14 are the same group. They are the priests who take the truth to the world.

The bride is the great multitude who come from all nations, tongues and people and who accept the truth. Rev. 7:9.

Undefiled virgins (144,000) means that they are pure and have no lie in their mouths. They have not been deceived by false prophets and apostles.
---barb on 5/22/11

The thing is men aren't called virgins in the Bible. Only women are virgins.
Men, are eunuchs, someone with the external genitals missing.
Jesus said Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs which were born from their mother's womb and some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men, and eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. -that's pretty drastic. The question was if men shouldn't marry because they could not divorce the wife.
Jesus said, if you can bear being a eunuch, let him bear it.
Revelations 14:4 doesn't say males, but virgins who had never defiled themselves with (another? maybe) women.
---4everptl on 5/20/11

I believe that they are one and the same. The 144,000 in Rev. 7 are sealed by the angel of God, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. And in Rev. 14, it does indeed say, verse 4 "These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins." Yes, virgins. These are 144,000 pure godly, holy people. Consider a lot who are Jewish by birth are not all religious Jews. So God has 144,000 sealed with his mark so they will live and not be harmed through the tribulation. Rev 9:4
---Tammy on 5/21/08

The number is derived from 12 tribes of Israel by 12 disciples of Jesus, equals 144; and God's number is 1000 to 1; so 144 times 1000 equals 144,000. The 144,000 are born-again Christians whom are the followers of Jesus Christ.
---Eloy on 6/11/07

For the godly Jew, please read Romans 2:28,29; Galatians 3:27-29.
---Eloy on 6/11/07

In Chap. 7 These were entirely separate people. People who came out of the Great Suffering.--these people have been redeemed by the lamb. In 14 Chap. Jesus Christ has returned to the earth. He is standing with a multitude of the redeemed. Angel encourages the people of God in the midst of persecution and assures them that doom is coming for those who worship the beast.
---catherine on 6/10/07

I'd always heard that the term "undefiled by women" means that these men would be virgins. It ain't necessarily so. If you are in a good marriage, neither partner is defiled. "Defiled" in this sense may mean, they kept themselves from unGodly relationships with women of pagan beliefs, and stayed only with women who were faithful & true to God.
---Ann5758 on 6/9/07

When Pierre blogs we all must remember that he is using SDA theology, exclusively. While their interpertations are, ahem, unorthodox, it means that others' opinions may not be correct, also. From other threads, I have no doubt that P loves Jesus, wanting to please him. Eschatology views should NEVER be a measure of one's salvation.
As for me, on most days of the week, I am preMil, and midTrib. ;-)
---John_T on 3/3/06

In both chapters they are the ones with the seal of God in their foreheads so they may not be different people. The different people are in Rev. 7:9, the great multitude which no man can number.
---gregg8944 on 3/3/06

Adieu Pierre. We all have so much to learn and do so when we keep our eyes and hearts open to our brothers and sisters. As said, we here may differ in some areas yet even in such comes many truths from God. Some times I have left a discussion confused only to find another who has been blessed with new revelation/understanding of God's word. He feeds us as we can eat.
---mikefl on 3/2/06

You are so right Pierr. when I stated the last two I didn't know that you would answer as you did. I thank you for working with me on this. That is why I put the passages I did. Though we come from different background the purpose is the same. I don't believe anyone is positive about Revelations but we are positive that God is Sovereign and He is Lord. That if we believe and trust in His promises we will all preservere. You and I and everyone with that love for Christ. Thanks you Pierr.
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

Luoe: Allow me to remind you that when I blog I am not claiming to be giving the only acceptable answers to the questions posed, just suggesting the right answers for other bloggers' consideration. Now,I stand by my posting about the 144,000 because I believe it but you may not agree and that is ok too. P.
---Pierre on 3/1/06

2. But we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." 1 John 3:2-3. Ultimately, the most important spiritual implication of all eschatological study can be found in those verses. That is the good message. Our love for Christ Pierr.
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

How you added the 12 apostles x 12 is out of context with what is spoken in Revelations. You are doing what Eloy is doing and adding numbers to reach a conclusion. He counts 12 x 12 and adds and subtracts and so on, to give an explanation. Those habits arrive from reading more into Scripture that is not there. We began to add to Scripture to fit our view. the bottom line is, "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known.
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

Lupe: I agree very much with what you said. May you richly blessed in your study! P.
---Pierre on 3/1/06

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4. the 7 hills in context likely symbolize the 7 Kingdoms and their Kings, verse 10. I am sure you have studied this in detail because of your denomination. But you have to remember that as we learn we become prejudice to other ways. It is our nature. I believe Revelations is a special and very important book. It is the only one that begans with, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and only one that states, blessings to those who read and those who hear.
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

3. premillennalists from amillennialists is the question of how much of prophecy should be interpreted literally and how much symbolically. That the seven hills talked about in Rev. 17:9, The seven hills where the women sits, The Greek word is often used of hills (Matt.5:1; 15:29; John 6:15; 8:1). Many interpret this expression to mean Rome, which sits on 7 hills. It is true that the final world wide system of false religion includes, but is not necessarily limited to Rome; but specifically,
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

2. the world eventually will be reach for Christ. Here, Christ will return to earth at the end of the millennium. Amillennialism, is conceptually a form of postmillennialism. The millennium, in this theory, is symbolic and refers to the time between Christ's first and second coming, not a literal 1000-year period. During this time Christ rules symbolically in the period. For them the millennium refers to Christ's celestial rule in eternity. Hermeneutically, the major issue that divides
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

Pierr, let me explain something to you. When you began to interpret Eschatological Theories many have already taken a stand on one theory. How they were taught and who was teaching the course. Baptist, have their way, Sda's have their way, Catholics have their way and so on. Their is many unresolved issues regarding interpretation of prophecy. Right now there is "Premillennialism, that Christ will return before the millennium. Postmillennialism, veiw that through evangelism,
---Lupe2618 on 3/1/06

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The 144.000 represent a special group of saints, just like the 12 apostels X 12, filled with the Spirit and comissioned missionaries preaching the word around the world.
Finally just as the 12 occupy a special position in heaven (Luke 22:30) the 144.000
occupy a special position according to REV 14
enjoying a special citizenship for working for the Lord at the most difficult time. P.
---Pierre on 3/1/06

Lupe: Rereading the blogs I just realized that I complimented you for on written by mikefl not you. Sorry!
Let just repeat some of what I said:
When the Bible says that the 144.000 are "virgins" it means that they were theologically pure, not defiled by the doctrines of the woman in REV 17. (Rome)
144.000 is a symbolic number not a real number of those saved. In Ch 7 the saved are "a great man can number" TBC
---Pierre on 3/1/06

Pierr, I believe reading the book of Revelations is harder then all the other books. But if we take all the Metaphors and mark them, all the allorgies, and similes, then and only then can we come close to understanding this book. I began to work on this book a while back and have not done a complete study on it yet. I have read it many times and have read material on it from others but I wanted to study it for myself because there is at least three or four interpretations out there of that one book.
---Lupe2618a on 2/28/06

3. the comparison is unexpressed, and the subject and the thing compared are intermingled. But in the perticular passages mentioned, the writer intended a literal meaning. Of course as the books continues there is many metaphors and allegories but not on those passages.
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

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2. A Metaphor is an unexpressed comparison: it does not use the words "like" or "as". The subject and the thing with which it is being compared are intertwind rather than kept separate. Jesus used metaphors when He said, "I am the bread of life," and "You are the light of the world'. Although the subject and its comparison are identified as one, the writer does not intend his words to be taken literally. An Allegory can be understood as an extended metaphor:
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

I believe both are the same. AND they are the ones not defiled with women. That is the mystery many miss. Note Rev.17:1-6. See in vs 9 where the woman lives (Rome). Then vs 10-11 is succession of office by the heads of the woman's church. Note also that the woman is a mother (has offspring). If the mother is a church then the daughters will be in her likeness (organized religion). The 144k people have not coupled with that group.
---mikefl on 2/28/06

Pierr, can you tell me where you got that information? I got mine from scripture. It is not a simile, a metaphor, or allegory, but literal meaning. It even describes from what tribe v.5,6,7,8. I don't think we can make up something up. If we did that, we could do that on all passages for that matter. It is not a "simile" for simile sentences use the words "like" or "as". (example: the kingdom of heaven is "like"..). It is not a metaphor either,
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

Lupe: I kind of like what you say about the id. of the 144.000 I would just suggest that "ISRAEL" here means God's church made up of people of various backgrounds, including Jews, NOT the nation of Israel. Also, VIRGIN/UNDEFILED means not tained by false doctrines promoted by woman of ill reput. P.
---Pierre on 2/28/06

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2. while they accomplish their mission. In Chapter 14, "not difiled with women," is an illustration of God's ability to keep believers remarkably pure in the midst of great difficulty. This phrase indicates that the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will have not only resisted the perverse system of Antichrist, but they will have also resisted all temptations to illicit sex. (2 Corinthians 11:2).
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

Emg, I believe both groups are the same. The 144,000: A missionary corps of redeemed Jews who are instrumental in the salvation of many Jews and Gentiles during the Tribulation (v.v. 9-17). They will be the firstfruits of a new redeemed Israel (v. 4; Zech. 12:10). Israel will be the witness nation she refused to be in the Old Testament (Romans 11:25-27). All the tribes of the children of Israel means, By sovereign election, God will seal 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, promising His protection
---Lupe2618 on 2/28/06

Both groups are the same people. They are Jews not JWs. I believe undefiled by women speaks of virgin men. As for far out ideas, here's mine. For some reason I believe you and I will meet and know these 144,000 in the millennial kingdom.
---mima on 2/28/06

This is totally in "left field", so by no means take this as docturine. But It came to me one day that "undefiled by women" could possibly mean the saints from when the time Jesus was crucified (cleansed by the blood) until present. Where as from the crucifiction back to Eve were "defiled" by her (women) sins. HHHmmmm...
---Fred_S. on 2/28/06

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