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Can We Continue To Sin

If we can continue to sin and still be "saved" (as some would have us believe), then does that mean Satan and his angels will also be in heaven?

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You think that saved from sin is to continue to sin. Is it in your Bible? People can only caution your sin. But, Jesus Christ will condemn you in the Lake of Fire.
Let us see what 1John says. "1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 IF we CONFESS our SINS, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." Everybody have sinned. Nobody can say that they have not sinned. If they have confessed it, Jesus would have cleaned all unrighteousness, which caused all sin. Why did they got MARRIED TO SIN AGAIN EVEN AFTER Jesus Christ has cleaned them out?
---Dave on 6/1/09

To those who think they do not continue to sin I would remind them of first John 1:8 which says," If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We must necessarily be guilty of continued to sin in order for this verse in the Scriptures to be true. The fact that sin is such a weighty matter to some is the very area where they bring condemnation on others when truth be known they are guilty of sand by condemning others.
---mima on 6/1/09

This is a very good question that makes a lot of sense.
"Matt 25:41 ... Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Jesus Christ said that the cursed people, Satan and his angels will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. There will be torment. "Rev 20:10 ... the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Please read Matthew 7:21-23, 12:46-50. Only those who do the will of God the Father are in the fellowship with Jesus Christ, who inherit heaven. Continue sinning is not the will of God the Father.
---Dave on 5/31/09

Rich, that was a wonderful desplay of Scripture. Thank you so much for your words, they are needed time and again. Just to many believers with unbeliefs. Can you figure that one out? Peace brother and thanks again for your impute.
---MarkV. on 1/26/09

Ooops! Let's look at this: "however, if our heart is not penitent and sincere, God will not be forgiving, and you will go to hell, if you are not converted again."---This was an incomplete thought, and is contradictory to the first part of my statement, it should read, "however, if we make a conscious choice to do wrong, and our heart is not penitent and sincere, God will not be forgiving, and you will go to hell, if you are not converted again."
---TRU-DOG on 1/26/09

The Christian perfection is about the heart, which is the intent or motive of the will, -I don't think, if you sin inadvertently, or not on purpose, or overtly, it would be culpable or penal, -we are not infinitely jurisprudent, and adjudicate with infinite precision or exactness, however, if our heart is not penitent and sincere, God will not be forgiving, and you will go to hell, if you are not converted again.
---TRU-DOG on 1/25/09

Let's look at this carefully. Satan and his demons can never be saved. Salvation is not offered to them. And also we must understand law and grace. Now we all know that Abraham (Abram) was considered a heathen when God first appeared to him. After God made promises to Abraham the Bible says that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom 4:3). Now the law condemned all to death. The law was like a mirror, it showed us our problem, but could not fix it. We are all born into sin and were helpless. Now Abraham was counted righteous before God because he believed God. It is salvation by faith, not works.
---richa4946 on 1/24/09

Part 2: Therefore we can never be saved by works, only by faith in Jesus Christ. He alone is responsible for our salvation. We show our love for Him by obeying Him, not keeping our salvation by obedience. Obedience is a manifestation of salvation. Now if a person has been born again they will not practice sin, which is what's meant where it says continue to sin. If a professed christian continues to live a lifestyle prior to salvation, then they are false and not true saints. We will sin less and less as we follow Christ and become more like Him. Now if someone says they have never sinned since being saved, then they're lying. And that's the sin they need to repent of.
---richa4946 on 1/24/09

*I would concede that we do a lot of things out of a lack of knowledge or because we are unaware, however, this is not the same as a conscious choice to do wrong, there is a difference between sin's of "ignorance", and, sin's that are overt, -to not know or to be ignorant and unaware, is not sin that incurrs penalty, they are non-penal, because we are not infinitely juisprudent, we could do things, and be imperfect in this sense, God is not trying to get us on a technicality
---TRU-DOG on 1/24/09

Free means free. At no time is the will free from motives or desires. We have a will and we make choices and we choose right or wrong, but the will is motivated to choose right or wrong when it makes a choice. It has liberty, to choose right or wrong, but to say the will is free is not true at all.
All the explanations about the will been free are not found in Scripture. Motives are found, desires are found, and God judges us by our motives and desires.
If we were free we would not know what to do, and God could not judge us right or wrong.
I know some don't think this is important and it is since the lost are in bondage to sin. Their will is captive to sin.
---MarkV. on 1/24/09

MarkV, If what you define as free-will, being inert or inactive, I would say it is not correct, and very misleading, -the will is not free from its own innate ability to be self-acting, and to have self-determining capacities, -and to confuse in-voluntary states with the will is also incorrect, thoughts or emotions, are not the same as volitions. All in-voluntary states are to be regulated by the control and restraint of the will, your natural innocent innate desires, are to be regulated, by your obedience to the indwelling Holy Spirit, that is also voluntary.
---TRU-DOG on 1/23/09

True Dog, You did not answer my questions. As I said before, if the will is free, free from any desires or inclinations as you have stated, how can it make a decision?
Remember free means free from anything.
Why this is crucial is because the lost have a will and it is captive to sin, they are not free from sin and cannot escape on their own, they need Christ. They make many choices but never for God. They are spiritually dead to the things of God. They have a will, but is that will free completely? I say no, because Jesus said they do not listen because God is not their father.
---MarkV. on 1/23/09

Quite clear what you said. I found this def of a freewill offering, "a voluntary sacrifice (Lev. 22:23, Ezra 3:5), as opposed to one in consequence of a vow, or in expiation of some offense" That God places constraints on what may qualify as a "freewill offering" does not deter from its nature. Where the rudiments of love may start out as a natural, even selsish (gain of wellbeing or comfort), Love must be taught and nourished, knowing that for higher sentient beings one's freedom ends where another's begin.
---Nana on 1/21/09

The "Involuntary" and "Non-Moral" states, like an appetency for food, craving, relish, tastes, desires, emotions, thoughts, objective motives, propensitities, passions, and inclinations,etc. -are a means of temptation, and an occasion for sin, but that is it, these are not personal acts of sin, and not voluntary states. -The voluntary states of the will are a choice, or intention, or subject motive to satisfy or gratify these inward and outward objects of temptations, it is voluntary to yield to their urges and impulses, and persuasions, in a prohibited and unlawful manner.
---TRU-DOG on 1/21/09

Are "spontaneous decisions" as "non-moral" or "moral" defined as not having free-will? Why can't you make good and wise decisions and be spontaneous? Is a "free-will" defined as free from all choice or action, or "free from any desire or inclination"? Can you make choices, and have desires, and inclinations, and be spontaneous, and still have free-will? You have free-will to act on desires, thoughts, inclinations, susceptibilities, and propensitities, or not, it is not sin to have a temptation or objective motive, from any of these things. There is a big difference in "voluntary" and "involuntary" states of being
---TRU-DOG on 1/21/09

The "Power of Contrary Choice" or the opposite choice of the will, is an innate, and inherent faculty, that has a self-determining function, it is essential in having free-will. We are not will-less in being a Christian, and, when, we are in obedience to God, we always have the choice to disobey, at any moment, we don't loose our free agency. -The notion that we can have free-will only when it is in a state of inaction is a false assumption. Our obedience is self-determining, to exercise our will is self-determining, God does not need to force love, we can love Him freely
---TRU-DOG on 1/21/09

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*If you cannot obey, you can't disobey, your moral-agency or free-will, would be destroyed,---Righteousness begans, where sin ends, you are a self-active being, or self-determining being, you have the "Power of Contrary Choice, God will never force His will into the sanctuary of your liberty, this would be oppression, and tyranny
---TRU-DOG on 1/21/09

Romans 13:1: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers."
Romans 13:4: "For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
Romans 13:11: "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12: The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."
---Nana on 1/21/09

Tru-Dog~ Thank you very much for all the patient explanations. How would you respond to Rickey's post below?
---Anne on 1/20/09

Anne, Let's look at this: "So basically you're saying that our 'sin-nature', is the natural selfish desire to satisfy temptations."--- You don't have a natural selfish desire to satisfy, you are not born to be selfish or with "selfish desires", you have innocent innate natural desires,etc. -to satisfy them, is not sinful, or selfish, but in a context that is forbidden, it is sinful and selfish, to be selfish or sinful is a moral-choice.
---TRU-DOG on 1/20/09

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Anne, A sinful-nature is a moral-nature, it is a sinful way of life or a sinful life style, to be sinful is a choice, it is to have a sinful character or disposition, you are not born with a sinful-nature, it is not ontological, but moral in nature.
---TRU-DOG on 1/20/09

Anne, To give in to the "flesh" etc. -is to give in to those excited innocent innate desires, that urge you to satisfy, in a forbidden manner, -just to have an urge to satisfy, your inward excited innocent innate appetites or desires, is not sin, it is a means of temptation.
---TRU-DOG on 1/20/09

Satan and angels could never be placed back in heaven. There's a difference between "sinning" and "continuing to sin"..IJohn 2:1-2,1:9 They show that we also have forgiveness available. It's not giving us a liscence to sin. Proverbs 28:13 says, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy."

He who covers his sins is a person who continues to sin & is unwilling repent. A person who confesses AND forsakes it will have mercy. Take into mind that a person may sin again, but they will not lose their salvation. Teachings on losing salvation are erroneous and elementary...many are still stuck on them & need move beyond this.
---Rickey on 1/20/09

Tru-Dog~ So basically you're saying that our 'sin-nature', is the natural selfish desire to satisfy temptations.

In Romans 8:13 it says "For if you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live."

This verse shows us that free-will and human responsibility are involved in salvation by grace. (we are free to follow the sin nature, or the Spiritual nature.)

Gal.5:19-21 says "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious (lists many grieveous sins), I warn you these do not inherit God's Kingdom.
---Anne on 1/20/09

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Tru-dog~ (continued) Galations 6:8-10 tells us "The one who sows to please his sinful nature will reap destruction, but the one who sow to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

Yes, how true, that we must put to death the sinful nature, and follow in the Spirit. Sowing to the sin nature only brings forth sin, heartache, deeper and deeper separation from God, and eventually eternal separation from God. Whereas sowing to th Spirit brings forth all the marvelous fruits of the Spirit, peace with God, and an eternal life with Him.
---Anne on 1/20/09

Mima, Let's look at this: "Do we have a sin nature? Rom. 7:18-19-20,"18-For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,)"---This is an inward struggle of a man, with inward excitements and sinful-temptation(objective motive), to satisfy his innocent natural desires or appetites of the flesh, in a forbidden manner, -along with his desire to do good, and his knowledge of right and wrong, -it is not with some kind of innate or inborn sin-nature, his desire to satisfy was greater than doing what was right, he made a choice to do wrong, and had guilt and shame, and became penitent.
---TRU-DOG on 1/20/09

Anne, Let's look at this: "To me 'sin-nature' means a natural tendency to sin."---A "sin-nature" is not a natural tendency to sin, but a natural tendency to satisfy innocent natural desires.etc. A "sin-nature" is voluntary and is a "moral-disposition or character", -it is a manner or way of life, it is selfishness.
---TRU-DOG on 1/20/09

Do we have a sin nature?
Consider the following scripture.
Romans 7:18-19-20,

"18-For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19-For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20-in the Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but SIN THAT DWELTH IN ME."

This description is taking place 14 years after Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Surely he was saved at that time and surely these statementS describe an indwelling sin nature!!!
---mima on 1/20/09

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The oldest argument against the doctrine of security, that if we are saved and if nothing can ever alter that, doesn't that give us a license to sin? And of course Paul answers that in Rom. 6th, when, having indentified this reality of grace, he, coming down to the end of chapter 5, says, "As sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more-with the immediate response in chapter 6 of his, he says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never, never be.
---MarkV. on 1/20/09

Part 2. In other words, what do you mean when you say someone who is a Christian does not continue to sin? Of course we sin. John in 3:4-10 is talking about unbroken patterns of sin, he's talking about habitual sin without a break. When you become a believer, that is not the case. The pattern of your life is righteous. And when sin does occur, a true Christian has a righteous reaction to that sin so that there's a sense in which righteousness even prevails in those times of sin. So if grace is grace and if salvation is forever, then we're all going to run out and commit sin everywhere? Not a chance. As Paul answer to that is "You can't." Not "don't" but "You can't" because you are a new creation.
---MarkV. on 1/20/09

Tru-Dog~ To me 'sin-nature' means a natural tendency to sin. Before God's grace opened our eyes to the fact that our sinful ways were leading us on a path to hell...we had a tendency to sin.

We later repented of our sins and God changed our hearts to want to live in righteousness instead of wicked desires. Many though turn from righteousness...they get led astray by idols, sin, etc. and their heart can stray from God, for ongoing unrepentant sin separates us from God. (Just like Solomon) We can turn from God...we're not robots, or living under a dictatorship. However, if we turn...look at the consequences we will face. But if we live for God...we have eternal peace.
---Anne on 1/19/09

Anne, Let's look at this:"Ez.3:19-21 "Again, when a righteous man TURNS from his righteousness and commits iniquity,---How is it a person can be righteous, if they have a sin-nature, is God mad, why is he trying to confuse us? Why would this be in the Bible, if there is a sin-nature, that makes us sinful, at birth, and no one can be righteous,etc.-- why does this verse tell us we can, is God's Word wrong? Oh! Why does He say that we can turn from righteousness, at will, or with free-will, when we can't? I know you don't believe like some, so, what do you think?
---TRU-DOG on 1/19/09

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Rich, great answer from you. You explained it very good. The thing is that many call themselves Christians when they have not committed their lives truely to God. People see some fall away and never come back to church or live a Christian life ever again and they assume this people were saved to begin with. Humans can only assume since they cannot see someone heart. We judge others by their works to see if they are convincing enough for us to count them as believers but they don't have to convince God, for He knows the hearts of all men. And He knows to whom He will grant that faith, and when He does, those people will believe and He will make sure they walk in His statures, for in His eyes they are saved whether we believe it or not.
---Mark_V on 1/18/09

I agree.
---calhoon on 1/18/09

Calhoon, the grace of God leads people to repentance. I am not convinced that for instance a soldier dying in battle with unrepented sin in his life is going to hell, because the fact that he is fighting for the freedom of others (or whatever cause his conscience tells him is correct) would be proof of an intense love for humanity. So I believe that Christians and nonChristians who have good works can be saved despite their sins, but it would be because of an inner righteousness or in the case of Nazi soldier for example, the fact that they did not have the truth given to them. Those who died knowing it was for an evil cause would be a different story.
---frances008 on 1/18/09

Can we continue in sin after we are saved?

Let's see what it says in Ezekial 3:19-21...

"Again, when a righteous man TURNS from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him he shall DIE, because you did not give him warning...he shall die in his sins, and his righteousness he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I shall require at your hand. Nevertheless, if you WARN the righteous man that the righteous should NOT sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely LIVE because he took warning. Also you will have delivered your soul."

God is intensely serious about sin, and he is serious about it throughout the entire Word of God.
---Anne on 1/17/09

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Sin has NO power over a Christian.Sin was taken care of at the Cross. The Question should be, do you love Him? If people think sin will send them to hell, they are wrong.
They had better look at their works, whether they be good or bad. Works of love are always good.
---calhoon on 1/17/09

MarkV, It is not "Grace" or "Divine Favor" that gives the ability to obey, it can be withheld, and God be "Just", if God would require the impossible, without man having the ability to do so, God would be "Infinitly Unjust", we do have the ablility to obey by nature, we are born as a moral-being, with all the moral-abilities and capacities that God designed us with, God's Holy Spirit may plead, command, and reason, he can, and may present strong considerations, and motives, and persuasions, but our voluntariness and liberty, must be maintained, or moral accountability is lost, and you are no longer a responsible agent
---TRU-DOG on 1/17/09

Glory Alleulia!!!at last someone is catching on that OSAS is FALSE and a prelude to destruction, moreso for the people who advocate it "No one can presume God"Live for Him as He lives for you Follow dont create your own diversions That are of the deceiver.
---Mic on 1/17/09

The answer is NO.
Angels were made for certain duties, created in maturity and ineligible to pro-create or for redemption. Redemption was made for man and Christ did not die on the cross for Angels (spirits of heaven).
I will have to dig around some more, but I'm not sure hell even existed before Lucifer rebelled.
Hell represents distance from God-the furthest distance. When creation was perfect prior to man and the angelic rebellion what was the need for hell?
---larry on 1/17/09

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I think people are misunderstanding what OSAS is. Every person who has been genuinely born again can never be lost, period. John 10:28-29 makes that clear. The difference between a saint and a sinner is a saint doesn't practice sin as does the sinner ( the main difference is trusting Jesus as Lord and Savior). Now if you profess to be a christian and there is no difference in your lifestyle after conversion, then you have not truly given your life to Christ. Because when Christ comes into anyone's life they are NEVER the same. Keep in mind some of God's greatest saints committed serious sins such as David, Moses, and Peter to name a few. And this when they had a relationship with God. They repented.
---richa4946 on 1/17/09

Darlene1, Did you say this?..." that many who believe in OSAS will go to hell because they were never saved to begin with"--- What is MarkV, thinking or...? --- I like your thoughts and ideas, you have my vote today.
---TRU-DOG on 1/17/09

Darline, I believe you're correct, that many who believe in OSAS will go to hell because they were never saved to begin with. But if their commitment was genuine, don't worry about them. If they have the Spirit of God, they will be saved. God will not lose a single one of His children. That is a Promise and you have to believe God if you have true faith.
No one knows who is and who is not, only God. And if they are genuine believers we will never know. I'm sure of all the people I heard say they were saved many are not. And when we get to heaven we sure won't see all of them to make sure if they were. There will be millions in heaven. For we know thousands of them now who go to church for years and might not ever have been saved.
---MarkV. on 1/17/09

Darlene~ That was one very sensible and wise post. You are one who reads the entire word of God, and has a healthy fear of Him. God knows our hearts and we can never fool Him.
---Anne on 1/16/09

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My Brother-in-law believed once he was saved no matter what he did he was still saved. I asked "even if you murder someone" he said yes he was going to Heaven no matter what he did. Romans6:16-23 plainly says you yielded yourself to sin but after saved yield to righteousness,when you were servants of sin,were free from righteousness.21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?for the end of those things is death. All those verses indicates one is to be free from sin not only in Word but in deed. 23.The wages of sin is death,but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus our Lord. I wonder how many people will keep sinning willfully after accepting Jesus due to Doctrine OSAS and will go to Hell for it?
---Darlene_1 on 1/16/09

MarkV, It is not "Grace" that gives us the ability to obey God, it is a matter of "Justice", to require the impossible, would be "Unjust", God has given us all the moral-ability, and capacities, to be able to obey his law. We have the same "spirit/soul/body" as we did before, as a sinner, God does not change the make up of man, it is not an ontological/metaphysical change, we still have the same moral-faculties as before, the exercises of them, has been redirected, towards God, and not employed, for selfish ends.

---TRU-DOG on 1/16/09

Calhoon~ We're still going to make mistakes and sin sometimes even after we're saved as Paul explains in Romans 7:17-25.

However after we're saved/born-again we have a totally different attitude about sin. We want to stay as pure from sin as much as possible (James 4:7-10, James 1:21-27,Heb 10:22): we want to confess sin (James 5:16), we strive to be without spot and blameless (II Pet.3:14), we strive to not love this world (IJn. 2:15-17), we exhort others of sin in a Spirit of love (Heb 10:25),we have reverence and godly fear (Heb.28-29), we test ourselves to make sure we are right with God (Heb.12:15)

God knows our hearts if we are sincere and true. He also knows the hearts of those who turn their backs of Him. (Luke 8:11-15)
---Anne on 1/16/09

Calhoun, don't let anyone change your mind concerning salvation. Sin did separate us from God when we were lost for we were slaves to sin. Now that we are in Christ we are not slaves anymore. We have been set free from the penalty of the law, and have been place under Grace. Which Christ paid for our sins as believers by faith, and that which begin a work in us will complete that work. Trust it with your heart, and never waver, for those who waver doubt in Him, which they should have believed already. We are children of God in Christ. And children of promise. And nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing means no one or anything.
---MarkV. on 1/16/09

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Calhoun, all those who are brought to life, born of the Spirit, will have faith, and bewill be convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins against God and will repent. Not because they have to, but because they will want to repent for what they have done against God. They will produce good fruits and they will struggle in life. Regeneration is only the beginning of our walk with God. The Spirit testifies to our spirit we are now children of God. A guarantee through the promises of God that we now believe by faith, that we will have eternal life and that that which began a good work in us will complete what He started. Believe it or not.
---MarkV. on 1/16/09

So, salvation is a walk, trying to live a sinless life, so we can be saved in the future? Or can we be saved in the present and still be sinners at times?
---calhoon on 1/16/09

Matthew 3:1_3: "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

What say ye to that above, Calhoon?
---Nana on 1/16/09

Calhoon~ Until we repent (feel sorrowful remorse for sin, and sincerely strive to not continue in sinful ways), I'm not really sure how we could be saved.

Sin is the thing that separates us from God, it's either we love sin more, or we love God more. So until we repent and turn from sinful living and practices, I don't know how we could have a right relationship with God.
---Anne on 1/15/09

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Are we to repent of sin before we are saved? What say you all.
---calhoon on 1/15/09

Jesus said: "I came to call sinners to repentance." Repentance suggests a turning from sin for his believers. Why would he die for you if sin wasn't bad for you?
---Tom on 1/15/09

MIMA:You should add a foot note to your Cert. of sal.Please read Matt & :21-23.all unbelievers and especially believers who desire to take the SURE risk"
---Mic on 1/15/09

Three questions about Mima's Certificate of Salvation:

Can this certificate be used by the recipient to show other people that he has been saved, because Mima said so?

Will God accept this certificate when at last we come before Him?

Did Jesus ever copyright His words and promises?
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/15/09

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Salvation is the work of God, lest anyone should boast. Jesus died for the sinners who are willing to repent. If you do not repent you get to pay for your sins. The punishment is an eternity away from God. If you are righteous you will be judged righteous and go to Heaven, as the Bible says 'Love covers a multitude of sins.'
---frances008 on 1/14/09

(Continuation of Certificate of Good News)

"...He'll give you a white robe and you will not appear before Him in shame. Rather He will say 'Well done, good and faithful servant.'"


(Just a suggestion)
---Anne on 1/14/09

Mima, it was a cute idea. I am just pointing out the truth, that salvation and certificate are two different things. Someone can give you a cheque for 50 dollars and you trust them, so you later cash it and get the money. Someone else can give you a cheque written in the same way but the details are slightly different, and you go to cash it, but it bounces. We had better make sure that we are not following a god made in our own image and to serve us. That would be a false god. Idol worship. The certificate would become worthless. There is no promise of salvation to idol worshippers. Though if they do it in ignorance, maybe God will look at their works.
---frances008 on 1/14/09

Can God not choose or elect someone, on the bases of "Fore-Knowledge" of future moral-actions, before they have made their first moral choice? The "Omniscience" of God, is not limited to time, and space, with "finite-existences", there is a beginning, with the "Infinite" there is no beginning, time is only predicated to the finite, with the "Infinite" past, present and future has no distinction, it is one period of duration, all events actual and possible are know to him, because he is "Omniscience," his election is predicated on his "Fore-Knowledge" of obedience and moral-behavior
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

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Mima~ Yes, like you said, salvation is an event that occurs at a single moment. But, I also believe it must be earnest and ongoing by being faithful in our love and right union with God.

I rather like your certificate idea since certificates are a good way to remember momentous occasions. However, to call it a 'certificate of salvation' is a bit presumptuous. I think I would instead call it a 'certificate of good news.'

In my next post I will give you an example of what it could possibly say...
---Anne on 1/14/09

Certificate of Good News

On this day (date), Anne heard the good news of the gospel. Anne repented of her sins, and no longer desires to continue in sin. Anne has not completed her journey with the Lord, but has only begun. The Bible says in I Timothy 4:16 "Take heed of yourself and continue in sound doctrine for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear you."

Anne, if you find in your heart a lust for this world or sin, you should take heed and beware and turn back to God. However, if you find and earnest, ongoing desire to do the will of God from this day forward, then one day you will meet your Father in heaven and He'll
---Anne on 1/14/09

A copy of my certificate of salvation

Whereas the Scriptures say," whosoever shall call upon the name Lord shall be saved," and whereAs we, the undersigned, do hereby boldly declare that-----------------
has called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and has accepted him as his/her personal savior, we beening witnesses of this because of hearing the person him/her with our own ears.

Dated------ Time-------
---mima on 1/14/09

At one time in my ministry I provided a "certificate of salvation", and still do if ask to, to anyone who I heard call on the name of the Lord for their salvation

FALSE ministers
give meaningless hollow antichrist salvation certificate's for lip service to satisfy their worldly lusts (1John 4:1, 2Corin 4:4, Eph 6:12, Col 2:8, 1Tim 6:7)

certificates later dumped into same box as other worldly certificates diploma's etc

...TRUE Christians follow examples of Apostles who followed Christ

Apostles were not patting backs telling them good job here's a gold star and certificate

Christ won't be "accepting" certificates like a free get out of jail card in a board game
---Rhonda on 1/14/09

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---frances wrote salvation "is not a thing that you put on your mantelpiece like a certificate" now this statement brings up a very interesting thing.
At one time in my ministry I provided a "certificate of salvation", and still do if ask to, to anyone who I heard call on the name of the Lord for their salvation.
Another interesting thing about this was when I went around to hospitals and nursing homes, that many of these patients after receiveing the Lord Jesus Christ would post these certificates at their bedsides. These patients relatives would later tell me that they had seen the certificates.
I understand this will sound crazy to many on these blogs.
---mima on 1/14/09

MarkV ... You say "Those who take credit for their salvation are those who "Going about to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God" they tried to do it out of their works and merits"

You are of course quite correct ... but who here in any of these extensive discussions on this blog and others, has ever taken credit for their salvation, and who has tried to establish their own righteousness?

None that I can recall
---alan8566_of_UK on 1/13/09

The "Grace" or "Gracious Influence" is not irresistible, that is to say, too powerful or convincing to be resisted, it is not "Irresistible Grace." The Holy Spirit brings strong conviction and persuasion, to bring the heart to salvation, and a new moral-life in Christ, and to be saved forever, however, it is not irresistible, it can be rejected, it is not without choice or free-will
---TRU-DOG on 1/13/09

The "Grace" of God does not force us to be saved, the "Gracious Influence", of the Holy Spirit, is to bring conviction, and strong persuasion, to induce "Faith", and, to turn the heart away from sin, to obey the truth, of God's Word, to be born-again, and, to have a new-moral life, in Christ.
---TRU-DOG on 1/12/09

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The "Grace" of God does not force us to be saved, the "Gracious Influence", of the Holy Spirit, is to bring conviction, and strong persuasion, to induce "Faith", and, to turn the heart away from sin, to obey the truth, of God's Word, to be born-again, and, to have a new-moral life, in Christ.
---TRU-DOG on 1/12/09

What are the works we must do? Answer.. Believe on Him who He has sent. Our faith must have some merit or are we puppets?
---calhoon on 1/12/09

It is God's "Grace", to convict or hearts, to repent, and believe, by his Holy Spirit. It is also, his "Grace", to keep us righteous, and holy, and to do his will, and to work out our salvation, with fear, and trembling, while his Holy Spirit is convicting our hearts to obey him, so we will not, be lost forever, this is ongoing, every day of our lives. God's Holy Spirit, is there in our hearts, convicting us of our sins, so we will repent, and, so we will, be righteous, as he is righteous, this is by his "Grace" in our hearts.
---TRU-DOG on 1/12/09

Please read the 6th chapter of Romans. Paul asks the church "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound". God Forbid. Also read 1 John 3rd chapter.
---M on 1/12/09

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If old, evil, satan and his angels could be in heaven this would mean everyone would be there. You must be saved through God's Blood and after that you must continuously ask God for His mercy and to forgive you of all your sins. Satan can still give the strongest believer a run for his money as they say. I know some of these questions are so rediculous and it is mocking God, whether you realize this or not, nontheless, it's true. Heaven is for holy people that has been made right with God. A place of holiness. Not a place of demonicim. Pay attention>>>The lake of FIRE will be Satan's home along with his angels and all lost people. And false prophets. Thank you.++
---catherine on 1/12/09

If salvation is of Grace, as the Scriptures so clearly teach, it cannot be of works, whether actual or foreseen. There is no merit in believing, for faith itself is a gift of God. It is God who opens the heart of the individual so that he gives heed to the gospel, Acts 16:14. The very inception of faith itself is assigned to Grace (Acts 18:27). Paul makes it plain that "Righteousness of God" is given to us through faith, and that we enter heaven pleading only the merits of Christ. Those who take credit for their salvation are those who "Going about to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God" they tried to do it out of their works and merits.
---MarkV. on 1/12/09

Frances~ Love these last 2 posts of yours. You're straight up to the point, yet very gracious as well. Keep it up.
---Anne on 1/11/09

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