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Eternal Security For Christians

What does JUDE Chapter 1:25 where it says," now on to him that is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" refer to? Eternal security or lost and saved lost and saved, maybe, could be, salvation

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 ---mima on 3/12/06
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We are all sinners saved by grace. Since Pauls time, there would be lots of us who could contend for the title "Chiefest of sinners" in our pre-redeemed condition.

This is the same man who said 1 Corinthians 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
---Bruce5656 on 8/17/07

sorry let me clarify first sentence about eternal sec. second ex. is about osas. sorry for confusion cant live like devil and expect to live w/ the Lord.
---r.w. on 9/18/06

Sorry r.w. but surely, to be eternally secure does mean that once we are saved we are always saved. I still do not understand how you see a difference. I think that saved=secure and always=eternally. You obviously see something different here.
---emg on 8/6/06

eternal security-John 10:28-29 speaks how no man can pluck us from the hands of Jesus nor of the Father. No one can take our salvation away. eternal security-different ballgame. just cause get saved you dont lose your free will. we're to crucify the flesh and take up the cross daily. Ezek 18:20-24 (very important) says that we must be righteous the rest of our days. therefore osas is not correct
---r.w. on 8/5/06

Please explain the difference r.w.
---emg on 7/25/06

eternal security and osas are different
---r.w. on 7/24/06

2. When we pray and ask God to save our kids or friends, that we will believe with our hearts that He can do anything. That we are depending on Him for our very existance. That it might take a minute or an year but that we are trusting on His promises, for we are children of Promise. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
---Lupe2618 on 3/29/06

Thank you John T. There is many on line now that know about God's Sovereignty and people need to know the truth as to who Saves us and how He sustains us. That not by our might but God's holy power. That is the Christian life. A life depended upon Christ by faith. Not on ourselves but Christ in us. Christians need to take their focus away from themselves and put it all on God. That when we say, God is in control, we mean it from the heart.
---Lupe2618 on 3/29/06

We are sealed by the HS and kept by God.
John 6:37 \ 10:28,29
2Corinthians 1:21,22
Hebrews 6:18,19
1Peter 1:3-5
We do not receive salvation by works. Why would we keep our salvation by works? Ephesians 2:8,9,10
Examples of good works after salvation are to love others and share the gospel. 1Corinthians 3:11-15
---Ulrika on 3/29/06

The answer to you question is simple: Jesus. That scripture is referring to Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the resurrection. That means that he, even more than being a means to salvation, IS salvation himself. If we have him, we have eternal life.
---Anna on 3/29/06

Billy, "The Jews were cheap grace people." Wow, what an arrogant and bigoted statement. Their grace was by no means cheap. It cost most of them their comfort and many of them their very lives. Have you ever even read any of the Old Testament? Also, the only real difference between them and us is they were looking forward to redemption/the cross, we look back on it. By your response it is evident that we/christians can be as stiff necked a people as they were.
---daphn8897 on 3/29/06

So much for your verbage.

The exegesis of Jude 23-24 PROVES that it is Jesus who keeps us from falling, presenting us faultless... That is why I did it.

The issue is NOT Calvin or Pharisees, that is a red herring. The issue ALWAYS is "What does Scripture say?"

Thus, it for his exceeding great joy that Jesus, by his intrinsic power is able to keep the elect, elect and clean.
---John_T on 3/29/06

Don't get 'getting in' confused with 'staying in' verbage and they and their impact are different unless Calvin and the Pharisees were right in that once God gets you in you can't get out since you were predestined. Otherwise we have free will. The Jews were cheap grace people. Chew on that awhile. I'll be back in a month :)
---Billy on 3/29/06

Hello Bruce, the one subject I was asking about is on degrees of punishment, as there will be degrees of gift are rewards for us. I have read many or some passages and I had ask this question before to someone but did not get an answer. It has nothing to do with losing salvation, for that is not even the subject. The people talked about were never saved to begin with so they could never lose something they never had.
---Lupe2618 on 3/29/06

John T, YES!!!! I am far too flawed and weak to keep my salvation. If it depended upon me, I wouldn't be. Anyone who thinks they can is operating in self-sufficiency, which I believe to be a stench in the Lord's nostriles. Anything we do in our own strength is tainted at best. How arrogant we are to think we can control God's will for our lives.
---daphn8897 on 3/29/06

The point of the exegisis was not to show off.

Rather it was twofold: demonstrate how the text, not opinions must rule our theology, and second, show that it is Jesus who CAUSES us to be able to stand firm, unmovable, not falling, and he does this by the mighty power and authority intrinsic to him.

That supports the OSAS position, because it is Jesus who is the guarantor of my salvation, not me.
---John_T on 3/29/06

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Perhaps the passage you refer to about degrees of punishment eludes you because it does not support the concept of eternal security :)
Luke 12:46-48, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
---Bruce5656 on 3/29/06

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
---Bruce5656 on 3/29/06

2. I was also wondering because some that were enlighten but not saved, were also going to get a greater punishment. I just thought someone would have studied this already and maybe send me the lessons on them so I could study them myself. Or give a book reference from a good writer. Thank you Donna for your response. There is so much to learn.
---Lupe2618 on 3/28/06

Thank you Donna, for your answer. I just saw it come through. I send another one out because I didn't see the one I thought I had send to both John T. and Daniel. I was wondering of the degrees of punishment. Since I have never studied completely some parts of Scripture on what happens after death other then Glorification. But it was something I would like to learn more about, that is why I was asking and I will look Luke up as you said. I have read a few like the one you gave
---Lupe2618 on 3/28/06

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I thought I had send this already but here goes again. I did make a big mistake. I was talking to both of you at once but didn't clarify. So sorry. I know Daniel, and I know he would not talk to himself and then answer himself. I am as old as Elder and do make so many mistakes. I am as good on the computer as he is. My question had to do with degrees of punishment in hell. I have not looked the passages up lately, but I recall that some, I believe Jesus too, mentions to someone that, because they heard
---Lupe2618 on 3/28/06

Lupe--I have often wondered if perhaps there could be "degrees" of hell. I asked this question once in a Sunday School class and raised a lot of eyebrows! Look at Luke 12:41-48.It is the parable of the servents "And that servant which knew his Lord's will and prepared not himself...shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes." How would you interpret this?
---Donna2277 on 3/28/06

John T. It was a typo. I am making many this days. Sorry. I knew you were John T. and I know Daniel by email. My question was concerning hell. It seems to me that there will be degrees of torment, for some more then others. I have read, "greater will be there punishment in hell" a few times, I don't remember the passages right now, but will look them up and give them to you. I am not too studied in this one so I was asking if either one of you guys have anything on it.
---Lupe2618 on 3/28/06


If Daniel is correct, then you must be having the same kittens on your hands as Elder.

He (and I ) have many typos on the blogs. Joining our exclusive club? LOL
---John_T on 3/28/06

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John, it hit me the very second I posted: I think Lupe meant to say (especially since he asked a question!): "Daniel, you _or_ John..."
as in either one please answer this!
---Daniel on 3/28/06

Lupe: No... I'm not John_T. How could you ever think I'd ever want to have a 'schizophrenic discussion with myself' in front of everyone?!?! I've almost never had any problems getting my views across here; certainly don't need all the space (nor time it would take!) to write both what John has and my own words! ;-)
---Daniel on 3/28/06

Lupe, We are different people.

The parable of the rewards suggests degrees of awards in heaven. However, because it is a parable, it is unwise to move beyond its meaning: God expects us to use our talents, not hide them.

This only talks about heaven, &it is unwise to build a doctrine on silence, such as with Hell.

What we do know about Hell is that it is a place of eternal torment, and separation from God. How can there be degrees of separation from God or degrees of eternal torment?
---John_T on 3/27/06

Daniel, you are John T. I have read that the one's that heard the Word and followed for a time, yet rejected and fell away later, thier penalty was worse for them. Now my question is, which are the passages that teach the amount of justice God will give them. I don't know if I am explaining this correctly or not. Since there is rewards for the saved, there is also more pain for some then others, "degrees" Can anyone of you point me to those passages?
---Lupe2618 on 3/27/06

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[-3-] "A note of caution should be uttered in every thesaurus against confusing this kind of book with a synonym book."
So, although you'll find all 3 words under the general verbal concept of "Interpretation," most words in each category are very far from being 'interchangable' as you stated. You need a dictionary to 'key you in on' which truly are synonyms by comparing their definitions!
---Daniel on 3/27/06

[-2-] "But you should remember the caution that very few words are true synonyms and use the thesaurus in conjunction with a good dictionary whenever necessary."
As a matter of fact, I saw a web site listing the words 'translate, transliterate and transpose' together under "Synonyms:" which could easily give the impression they all mean the same thing; they do *not*!!!
Chapman repeats twice more in his "Foreword": [CONT.]
---Daniel on 3/27/06

[-1-] Eloy and *everyone* (because I believe this will be very helpful to all):
Aha! Noticed your comments about using a _thesaurus_. Since you believe the words in question "can be used interchangably," it appears your problem here is in not understanding what a thesaurus is really for. Let me quote from the last sentence of "How to use..." section of _Roget's_ (4th ed., Robert L. Chapman): [CONT.]
---Daniel on 3/27/06

The exegesis was Jude 23." ...him that is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless"

I was answering Mi ma's original question.

It is a statement of eternal security of the elect because Jesus does all that stuff in the exegesis.

Thank you for the support, Daniel
---John_T on 3/26/06

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John_T: As I said below, your _5-part exegesis posts_ will mean little to most here; I must confess their disjointed presentation (in ASCII characters only) with no references was difficult for even me to see any clear points related to your conclusion! However...
FOR EVERYONE: I hope you can see it's lots of work for pastors who *properly do their 'homework'* before giving expositional sermons on Scripture! IF they do, without bias, then you should know what God says there! But study on your own too!
---Daniel on 3/26/06

Eloy: Please quote dictionaries (other than 'dictionary of Eloy') which have ever defined usages of "transpose" as 'substituting characters of one alphabet for another'; i.e., transliteration. I've many reference works; find that in none! PEOPLE, just like "Christian Science" can make up their own word usages, but they often do so to obscure real meaning or to lie about their beliefs to others. (An obsolete meaning of transpose is translating languages, but never transliterating them.)
---danie9374 on 3/26/06

Sorry if the actual Greek words did not come through, but below is an example of what an exegete does, and how the meanings of a scripture are derived.
---John_T on 3/26/06

Exegesis example 1/5
dunamai / pres. Middle/passive ptc. The Greek participle corresponds to the English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form. AV translates as can (could) 100 times, be able 37 times, may 18 times, able 3X, and translated miscellaneously seven times. 1 to be able, have power whether by virtue of ones own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
---John_T on 3/26/06

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Exegesis example 2/5
[Aorist Active Infinitive v. past tense inf. the idea of isolation; AV translates as keep 23 times, 1 to guard. 1A to watch, keep watch. 1B to guard or watch, have an eye upon: lest he escape... 1C2 to protect one from a person or thing. 1C3 to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe and unimpaired. 1C4 to guard from being lost or perishing. 1C5 to guard ones self from a thing. 1D to guard
---John_T on 3/26/06

Exegesis 3/5
ἄ [aptaistos /aptaheestos/] adj. From 1 (as a negative particle) AV translates as keep from falling + 5442 once. 1 not stumbling, standing firm, exempt from falling
---John_T on 3/26/06

Exegesis 4/5

ἵ [histemi /histaymee/] v. A prolonged form of a primary stao (staho, of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses 1 to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set. 1A to bid to stand by, [set up]. 1A1 in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;. 2B1 continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared.2B3 of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver.
---John_T on 3/26/06

Exegesis 5/5
ἄ [amomos /amomos/] adj. From 1 (as a negative particle) and 3470; TDNT 4:830; TDNTA 619; GK 320; Seven occurrences; AV translates as without rebuke twice, without blame once, unblameable once, without spot once, faultless once, and without fault once. 1 without blemish. 1A as a sacrifice without spot or blemish. 2 morally: without blemish, faultless, unblameable.
---John_T on 3/26/06

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Conclusion: It is Jesus who CAUSES us to be able to stand firm, unmovable, not falling, and he does this by the mighty power and authority intrinsic to him.
---John_T on 3/26/06

daniel, trans- a prefix meaning to move, cross over, ie: TRANSport, TRANSfer, etc. literate- letter for letter or word for word, as literally speaking. Transpose: trans + pose- position, put. And Translate: trans + latus, wide. Thus all can be used interchangeably, depending on the context of use, as well as the word "interpreting". I suggest that you obtain a thesauraus before wrongly criticising with nonexistent faults.
---Eloy on 3/26/06

daniel, transliterate and translate can be used interchangeably in the English language, as well as transpose, thus synonyms, and I don't need to look up any words that I already have thorough knowledge of, and commonly use in my speaking, and how to correctly use them, and I also have knowledge of their sources, roots and etymologies. Therefore your suggestion is needless and so it is rejected, and the point of your post is useless.
---Eloy on 3/25/06

TransLITERate = "To replace (letters or characters of one language) by those of another...; to write (a word, etc.) in the characters of another alphabet. Hence transliterated." (_Oxford English Dictionary_; same meaning as the _American Heritage Dictionary_)

Although "translate" can certainly mean to MOVE objects/people, etc., when done to words, it's most often changing them from one _language_ into another.
---Daniel on 3/25/06

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Eloy, you're startin' to sound like that 'Christian Science' cult in another blog. They RE-DEFINE words (only for themselves) to obscure what they really believe. Find a good English dictionary, and use it.

'Transpose' has NEVER meant to substitute the characters of one alphabet for another as you have done; though at one time (now obsolete) it could mean to 'translate' words from one language into another (OED)!
---danie9374 on 3/25/06

[-2-] becoming a Believer to being born and calls it being "born again". Did YOU have anything to do with your birth, Billy? Did you decide who your parents would be? Of course not. And no matter what you might say about them, nothing will ever change the FACT that you will always be their son. Now being sinful humans, parents can "disown" children, but God will never do that! And even if a parent declared you 'dead to them,' that can never change the biological fact of your birth.
---Daniel on 3/25/06

[-1-] Billy: No! I've thought very much about John 10:27-29. Since Scripture teaches we do *not* have anything to do with saving ourselves (it's all the work of God!), therefore there's nothing I can do to "leave" (as you put it); if I've been truly saved by Him. But for the sake of using a more accurate analogy, since "snatch" might imply to some an action of someone other than ouselves (even though Jesus said "no one"), let's turn to John 3 where Jesus compares... [cont.]
---Daniel on 3/25/06

Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]25 To the one only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory (splendor), majesty, might and dominion, and power and authority, before all time and now and forever (unto all the ages of eternity). Amen (so be it).

The Amplified New Testament (Jud 23).
---John_T on 3/25/06

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Clarification: My last comment was only about how one 'generally' interprets Scripture; much more not only could, *but should* be said if one were preaching a sermon! Or doing exegesis of verses for a commentary, etc. We could, as John mentioned, describe every single grammatical aspect of each word; but how many could appreciate that? A good preacher is one who need not go into all those details, yet must still do so himself to be sure of what Scripture actually says.
---Daniel on 3/25/06

re to John 10< you are reading without thinking. John 10 does not mention and so you cannot address that, but I agree that no one can snatch one from God's hand but that does not address a person's desire to leave. It's like marriage, we are bound but one can exercise free will and leave. obviously this is a debated issue. Even at Harvard we still debate it.
---Billy on 3/25/06

Alan, an "exegite" is a derogatory term the Egyptians used to call the Israelites for leaving them to finish building their own city during the Exodus...just kiddin.
---Eloy on 3/25/06

john, the literal transposition of the original Greek for I Timothy 1:15,16 is this: "Pistos o logos kai pases apodoches axios, oti Christos Iesous elthen eis ton kosmon amartolous sosai, on protos eimi ego; alla dia touto eleethen ina en emoi proto, endeixetai Iesous Christos ton pasan makrothumian pros upotuposin, ton mellonton pisteuein ep auto eis zoen aionion." And the transliteration directly into English I have already provided below.
---Eloy on 3/25/06

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So, what does Jude1:24 mean? (Exegesis = "critical explanation or analysis of the Text"):
It's God Who does the KEEPING of Believers (see John 10:27-29 and Ephesians 1:4; not ourselves! Also cf. Romans 16:25) which should make us exceedingly joyful (cf.Eph.3:20)! [On presenting us before God's glory, see Colossians 1:22].
Need anymore be said on the Text itself?
---Daniel on 3/24/06

Mima: First, that's verse 24 (not 25).

A TransLITERation (without accents):
"tO de dunamenO phulaxai humas aptaistous kai stEsai katenOpion tEs doxEs autou amOmous en agalliasei," [TR,UBS4,NA27,Scriv. -- *all* agree on the Text.]

A _very literal_ TransLation:
"And to Him (Who) is able to keep you[plural] without stumbling and to cause (you) to stand in the presence of the glory of Him blameless with extreme joy,"
---Daniel on 3/24/06

Alan is correct, "or less corresponding characters of a different language" Notice that characters, not WORDS is in focus. Therefore "logos" and "Christ" are Greek words in English characters.

In Greek, there are endings and accents that tell about the gender and grammar of a noun, and the tense, voice and mood of a verb.

Exegesis takes those word forms, translating them tomake sense, getting deeper meanings, deep translating.

See the difference?
---John_T on 3/24/06

Thanks, emg ... that is not in my dictionary either! I must get a larger one!
But the definition seems to take us further away from the original, as it enables us to "explain" the text on the basis of our own pre-existing ideas and beliefs.
Lupe and & me on predestination & free-will seem to be good examples of how different folk can exegese and find different meanings.
---alan_of_uK on 3/24/06

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Alan according to my dictionary 'exegEte' means 'a person who practices exegesis' - exegesis meaning 'explanation or critical interpretation of a text, especially the bible'
---emg on 3/24/06

#2 But "exegite" does not appear at all in my dictionary!! What on earth does it mean?
---alan_of_uK on 3/24/06

#1 For the benefit of lesser mortals ... can we check some definitions?
In my dictionary transliterate is "representing in the more or less corresponding characters of a different language"
Translate is "Express the sense in another language".
In the present discussion, transliterate would seem to be MORE accurate, John
---alan_of_uK on 3/24/06

Eloy: Your response indicates you do not know Koine Greek. Do you know the difference between a Greek verb and a Greek participle?

Transliterating means taking alpha, beta delta, etc, and writing into English ABD.

Translating means taking a word, gramatically analyzing its structure, then explaining the meaning from context.

As I said before, " Your interpertation does not stand" because it is NOT based in the Greek. I am not fighting you, merely making a point, OK?
---John_T on 3/24/06

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john, when I say transliterate I mean that I have literally translated the original Greek words directly into English words without any personal interpreting or varying the words in order to expound the meaning to the reader. I left the interpreting and explaining of the passage up to the reader.
---Eloy on 3/24/06

john, you are not hearing me. I will reiterate for, listen, hear it comes, are you ready? I transliterated I Timothy 1:15,16 directly from the Greek, I did not interpret it. Did you get it? Did you hear it? Yes? Good. But if Not, that's your loss...on to the next subject...
---Eloy on 3/24/06

Eloy: Transliteration is NOT translating, or exegeting. It is not a matter of belief, rather it is a matter of taking the original Greek, and reading what is there.

We are bound by the text, not by what we believe before we read the text

I thought you knew Greek, as you once wanted that polyglot Bible
---John_T on 3/24/06

john, btw, I directly transliterated the verses without any interpreting, but you believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 3/24/06

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john, I not only checked the Greek, but I transliterated both verse 15 and 16 directly from the Greek to show the mistranslation. Also in verse 13, the verb "WAS" IS PAST TENSE: Paul, WHO WAS BEFORE a blasphemer, did not say, WHO IS NOW a blasphemer. A child can understand the basic difference between WHO WAS BEFORE and WHO IS NOW, they are not the same, and therefore my words hold truth and fact for those who will have ears to hear.
---Eloy on 3/24/06

Eloy: "Without checking the Greek, the passage is in past tense according to verse 13: "Who WAS BEFORE...". ἰ is the Present Active Participle, not aorist active indicitive

You claim that you know Greek; obviously you did not check it. You should have. A PAP indicates continuious, ongoing action whereas the Aorist isa simple past tense, once done, not going on now.

Thus your interpertation does not stand.
---John_T on 3/23/06

Billy-- Thanks for making this point so clearly. Many people see the role of man or God in salvation as an issue separate from "eternal security of the believer". Logically "free will" salvation is contrary to "eternal security of the believer." And predestination is contrary to the idea that salvation may be lost. (Sorry, if terms are incorrect..I'm not educated in Calvanism). I've tried to make this point at times in these blogs but never got the idea across.
---Donna2277 on 3/23/06

daphne, God commands, Repent and be Saved. Obedience is required for salvation, and we must stay in Christ to be saved, for without obedience the lost remain lost. We have a duty to do. Our part is to fulfill his sovereign command to Go do the works of Christ. Even Jesus foreseeing himself taking on sin and death professed that it is not our wills, but his will we choose to do. Thanks for the compliment, I appreciate the humor blog. Lord knows we all need it in this dark world.
---Eloy on 3/23/06

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Eloy, I'm sorry, just one more thing... see you on the humor blogs. I truly appreciate you there. :o)
---daphn8897 on 3/23/06

Eloy, We are just going around in circles here. I know in Whom I believe and believe in His complete Sovereignty. I rest in that. So, I'm done here.
---daphn8897 on 3/23/06

daphne, "For this is the love of God, tghat we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome." I John 5:3.
---Eloy on 3/23/06

daphne, that is a mistranslation. Without checking the Greek, the passage is in past tense according to verse 13: "Who WAS BEFORE...". But I Timothy 1:15,16 in Greek is: "Trustworhty the word and to be all worth acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world sinners to save, being first to be I; but through this mercy in order that with me first, show Jesus Christ of all longsuffering for a pattern, to those to come to believe on him to life eternal."
---Eloy on 3/23/06

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Jude was written by Jude and not Paul (1:1), but to the question a Calvinist says 'perseverance of the saints' which is where one cannot lose salvation since no free will is involved. The rest of the positions (even those who say we can lose it) should say 'eternal security of the believer' since one has salvation as long as one is a believer. If you have free will to accept Jesus, you can only lose him when you exercise free will to leave him.
---Billy on 3/22/06

I don't think he would have mentioned it if he thought he was now sinless. I don't know Greek, but in English it is expressed in the present tense. Furthermore, in Phil 3:12 he says. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect...and v.13 "Brethern, I count not myself to have apprehended, But this one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind...
(read the rest, staying within my 85 word limit)
---Donna on 3/22/06

Surely you people do not seriously think that Paul was saying he was the "chief of sinners" in his present redeemed condition???

Can there be any doubt that he was refering to his past; Persecuter of the church, murder of Christians.
---Bruce5656 on 3/22/06

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