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Condemned In Fire Forever

Will the condemned be eternally tormented in the lake of fire after the final judgment or will they simply cease to exist after their prescribed punishment?

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 ---lee on 4/2/06
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The Bible says the righteous are given eternal life. While the wicked will die the Second death. JESUS said to fear GOD who can destroy the soul.

Yes eternal means here eternal. But eternal what? If you say that the wicked are given eternal life then show me where the bible says that? Show me why the Bible saying they are destroyed in eternal death as their punishment is not correct?
---Samuel on 6/6/08

Ramon Modern reading do not show we SDA are wrong in fact I often use modern translations as they show our points better. Acts is about David speaking of JESUS. But in the passage it is pointed out David is dead and did not go to heaven.

Moses we believe was resurrected this is hinted at in the book of Jude. Elijah of course never died.

It is Santanic to speak with the dead especially using witchcraft. So knowing the truth I would never do such a thing.
---Samuel on 6/5/08

Eternally means forever. They will be and exist in the lake of fire forever.
---julie on 6/5/08

Lee. #2They is no indication within scriptures to support that the wicked will cease to exist. Esp when the scriptures use to prove it actually do not!. Poor understanding of scriptures and Greek words? Perhaps.If the bible does not teach annihilation why people believe it? Brainwash by false teachers? Perhaps. People have replace the biblical doctrine with "annihiation" because they "FELT" is was wrong. And they fool people with out of context scriptures.Sad! Believe what you want.
---Ramon on 6/5/08

Lee.I alreadly explain the scripture you gave me about God and Immortality. No, Im not stuck out because i already proven my point.You have not!. We gone over your scriptures and we see how it does not teach annihilation!.God is a God of love but thats not mean that he wont judge the wicked as many people say.As most people say:If God is a God of love he wont allow the wicked to cease to exist. People like you(what you believe)have taken scriptures out-of-context to prove Annihilation.
---Ramon on 8/20/07

jerry - would like for you to comment on what happened in the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt. 17). Did Jesus actually talk to Moses who died? Or was Moses and Elijah simply exception to the SDA soul sleep theory? Or did Jesus simply have a mental vision which Peter & John also saw?
---lee on 5/7/06

Jerry. No "Clutter". It seems you having trouble understanding simple English. According to Lk. 16:19-31, Jesus gave some details about the abode of the dead, with its two compartments separated by a great, impassable gulf. The abode of the saved was called Paradise and Abraham's bosom. His body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the Paradise realm of Sheol / Hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from Paradise and took them with Him to Heaven.Ephesians 4:8-10.Should we consult Ellen?
---Ramon on 5/7/06

Lee: Sorry, but your added light only clouds the issue. The "paradise isn't heaven" argument conflicts with too many other scriptures. And all this "spirit body" stuff sounds more like new age mysticism than the Biblical concepts of a physical body, the breath of life, and the Holy Spirit in us.
---jerry6593 on 5/5/06

Ramon: If you have answered the question, I can't find it. Perhaps it is hidden in all the clutter. Would you be so kind as to answer the question one more time in a clear, succinct manner - say in 85 words or less?
---jerry6593 on 5/5/06

"...he prophesied they would see him go there. he went up and spoke to Moses and Elijah."

Since Adventists believe in soul sleep - that the dead know not anything, this scripture has to be a mistranslation as clearly Moses died and therefore since the dead know nothing, Moses could not have appeared.

Perhaps Christ was simply in a vision similar to what we read of Ellen White.

jerry may need to get in touch with that witch of Endor to consult Ellen White for clarification?
---lee on 5/4/06

Jesus had not yet asended in his crucified body but he was able to go any time he wanted in the spritual body like he did on the mount of transfiguation, he prophesied they would see him go there. he went up and spoke to Moses and Elija.
---Exzucuh on 5/4/06

Jerry - "... why Jesus told the thief that He would go to Heaven TODAY when 2 DAYS LATER He told Mary He had not yet been?"

Consider 1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;..., when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, ... when eight souls were saved by water.
---lee on 5/4/06

Jerry - perhaps I can shed some light on the question you are trying to ask Ramon.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Is Paradise the same as heaven? According to some as in the Lazarus story, Paradise was only 1 part of the place the dead went. Upon the resurrection, paradise was taken to heaven while the place of torment or hell will remain until the resurrection of the wicked.
---lee on 5/4/06

Jerry6593 I don't know why you are having trouble understanding. You keep saying answer your question when in fact I did. Are you doing this on purpose?
---Ramon on 5/4/06

Ramon: Are you intentionally avoiding my question about why Jesus told the thief that He would go to Heaven TODAY when TWO DAYS LATER He told Mary He had not yet been?
---jerry6593 on 5/4/06

#5.The proper translation renders the SDA argument completely invalid. The correct tense in the original Greek is the past not the present!!!.The NKJV(Etc) correctly translates verse 34.On the second verse.Of course his body is dead and buried.Dont confuse that with what leaves the body.You said many verses(not really) that states nothing.All believers now Go to heaven like the bible saids.Of course some has other interpertation(some evangelists), but all AGREE that this passage does not teach soul-sleep.
---Ramon on 5/3/06

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#4.Following the all-important verse 34a, St. Peter quotes Psalm 110:1. This messianic psalm makes the context that much clearer. St. Peter is saying that David DID NOT have to ascend up to heaven before he wrote Psalm 110. David still was able to write that the Messiah, who was still to come, would be made Lord of all by God. St. Peter had previously stated that David was a prophet who foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ (v. 31).
---Ramon on 5/3/06

#3.The SDA misunderstanding stems from the use of a poor translation. It reads: For David is not ascended into the heavens (v. 34a). There, they say, David IS NOT in heaven, but in the grave! A much more accurate translation is: For David DID NOT ascend into the heavens (see for example the following translations: AMP, ASV, CEV, ESV, NIRV, NIV, NKJV,ETC).If you have read this passage with context you would have learn the truth.
---Ramon on 5/3/06

#2.Why dont you read the entire verse instead of leaving stuff out?The passage that you cite (Acts 2:29-36) does not prove soul sleep. The passage does not even relate to the state of the dead. If we look at the passage carefully, and in context, it becomes very clear that St. Peter's point is that Jesus is the Lord and Messiah (v. 36). The state of David's soul (conscious or unconscious) is not under consideration. The proper translation renders the SDA argument completely invalid.
---Ramon on 5/3/06

Like I said jerry6593.According to Lk. 16:19-31, Jesus gave some details about the abode of the dead, with its two compartments separated by a great, impassable gulf. The abode of the saved was called Paradise and Abraham's bosom. His body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the Paradise realm of Sheol / Hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from Paradise and took them with Him to Heaven.Ephesians 4:8-10.(start here)
---Ramon on 5/3/06

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While that that have died are describled as having fallen asleep (2 Peter 3:4),that may indeed be only for the physical body. We read in Luke 20:38 "Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him."

As we see Moses (who died) with Christ on the Mount (Mt. 17), there is good reasons to believe that the spirit of the dead are in a state of consciousness.
---lee on 5/3/06

If ever there was a man that will be in Heaven, it is David, a man after God's own heart. But where is he now? Let the Bible answer. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day..... For David is not ascended into the heavens:" (Acts 2:29,34)

Moderator - Of course his body is dead and buried. Don't confuse that with his spirit which is with God.
---jerry6593 on 5/2/06

Ramon: You apparently have difficulty with the English language. Perhaps that is why you use so many words which say nothing. Please try to stay focused on this one point until we are clear. Then we can move on. If Jesus told the thief that He (Jesus) was going to Heaven on Friday, then why did he tell Mary on Sunday that He had not yet been? It is a simple question, and no amount of circumlocution and obfuscation will suffice as an answer. Just answer it, and perhaps you can gain some credibility.
---jerry6593 on 5/2/06

there's no such thing as fire...when you die you will either be raised to life again or you die forever.
---atheist on 5/2/06

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#4.They are Scriptures that is consistently neglected by those who promote soul-sleep. SDA is poor in when they study the bible. You also wanted to say he use pagan doctrine in his stories.And say Luke 16 is parable.This shows me your poor understanding of scripture.In what other parable does our Lord use a falsehood to teach truth? The answer is:none.You err again.Isaiah 14:9-10.The evidence is so strong against them that the SDA church resorts to an illogical, unbiblical attempt to keep their doctrine.
---Ramon on 5/1/06

#3.No Jesus didnt lie.Thats what your SDA pastor tells you? To call Jesus a liar?Jesus meant that very day he and the thief would be united together in paradise otherwise there is no significance to the statement if it is left to some unknown future time.In Revelation 6:9-11 there are martyrs (disembodied individuals) under the altar in heaven that are crying out to God asking Him how long He will wait to avenge them of their enemies. How were they existing apart from a body and before the resurrection?
---Ramon on 5/1/06

#2.According to you Jesus said something like this "TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise. Im sorry i was just joking!. I got you fool.Haha. You should have look at your face!." Really with Bible you have? Philippians 1:21-23. If Paul died he would "depart." Where would he go? He says he would go to be with Christ. Where is Christ? In heaven.They are just some scriptures that rip your agrument apart!. believers go directly into his presence at death (Eph. 4:8-10; 2 Cor. 5:8).
---Ramon on 5/1/06

jerry6593.According to Lk. 16:19-31, Jesus gave some details about the abode of the dead, with its two compartments separated by a great, impassable gulf.Accoding to Jesus story Abraham told Lazarus that he couldn't Cross over.The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a "great gulf fixed".According to Eph.4 Jesus descended first into the lower parts of the earth he then ascended on high bringing a multitude with him (upward to be with him).
---Ramon on 5/1/06

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Ramon: According to your interpretation, Jesus DID lie when He told the thief on the cross "TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise." Two days later He told Mary "Touch me not; for I am NOT YET ASCENDED to my Father (John 20:17)" So which is it? Did He lie to the thief or to Mary? Or just maybe that little comma inserted over fifteen hundred years later changed the whole meaning.
---jerry6593 on 5/1/06

#7. They are more scripture but these are the primary ones. The bible does not lie, you make it seem that it does. I have a KJV bible. Do you have a different translation? That wont make a difference, would it?different bible? Do you have a SDA bible that omit those verses? Do you ignore the facts for the sake of your SDA Pastor? Do you reject the bible?Which one its it with you? The bible said life afterdeath NOT soul-sleep or whatever you believe. The wicked will suffer afterdeath(luke 16).
---Ramon on 4/30/06

#6.Concerding the time between the believer's death and his or her bodily resurrection, Scripture teaches the following:A.At the time of death believers are brought into Christ's presence (2 Cor 5:8, Phil 1:23 etc)B. Believers exist in full consciousness (Luke 16:19-31 etc) and experiencej joy at kindness and love shown by God (Eph 2:7).C Heaven is like a second home after death (Rev 6:11)And a place of community and fellowsip with others (john 14:2).Death is Joy. You must have a different bible
---Ramon on 4/30/06

Jesus always used real-life situations such as that of the prodigal son, a man who found buried treasure, a king at a wedding feast for his son; a slave-owner story, of a vineyard rented, etc. All of which were common occurences in biblical times. Do we need to make an exception for Luke 16 story of Lazarus & the rich man? I rather doubt it.
---lee on 4/30/06

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If at death people simply lapse into a state of nonexistence or unconsciousness then waht is the point of Lk. 16. Are we to conclude that Jesus was teaching something based entirely on a falsehood - something that is untrue in every way? If the rich man & Lazarus were not consious after death, thenthe anwswer would have to be yes.
---lee on 4/30/06

#5.Eph.4.So since Christ ascended all go upward to be with HIM.A promised was made to the converted dying thief by Jesus when he was on the cross (Lk. 23:42).Some claim this is not correct in its punctuation and the comma should be before the today as if Jesus is meant today I'm saying this to you. But there are no commas found in the Greek writing to give weight to this. Did Jesus lie when he said to the thief today you will be WITH ME in paradise? Do you have a different bible?
---Ramon on 4/30/06

#4.There are many scriptures that really break your agrument into pieces!.Many evangelists read the fundamental doctrines of Seventh Day Adventism,there are a few Scriptures either missing or purposely neglected which actually changes one's view on this particular subject, because they hold vital information on the afterlife.Are you saying Jesus was liar?Everything Jesus spoke about was the truth or what could happend.Scripture like 2 Cor. 5:1-8(etc)is air-tight!.
---Ramon on 4/30/06

#3Without exception all parable are based upon REALITY not fantasy.Unlike the parable of the sower,which needs to be explained to be understood, Luke 16 can be read to ANYONE and they will grasp the meaning of it.Soul-sleep contenders argue that "since" its a parable(not), Jesus' story should not be taken literally,because literally it would teach an intermediate state.All of Jesus' parables are based on real life events,even if they are not speaking of an actual historical event in particular.
---Ramon on 4/30/06

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#2.Life after death is exactly what Jesus intended to teach!.The term sleep when it is used of death is in reference to the body.From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity. Paul condemned using Jewish myths and fables in 1 Tim. 1:4; 4:7;ETC!So by saying Jesus use a fable (as most people say)is so navi!.SDA accuse Jesus of using pagan false doctrine in Luke 16!Fable!.Why would Jesus use pagan false doctrine in what you call a parable!?
---Ramon on 4/29/06

jerry6593. All the stories Jesus told always illustrated truth not something false.Futhermore, The Lord would begin by saying he spoke to them in a parable, he did not use proper names as he did in this story (There was a certain man named Lazarus,abraham etc). However even if we were to grant this to be a parable, do we find any parable that did not tell the truth about the subject matter using illustrations for a real event? Or about what could happend?
---Ramon on 4/29/06

Ramon: If the story of the rich man and Lasarus is literal, and not a parable, then how will we all fit in the bosom of Abraham? And how is instantaneous communication between Heaven and Hell possible? As for how Jesus described the state of the dead, why not use His own words? "Lazarus sleepeth....Lazarus is dead. (John 11:11,14)" Now there's a scripture that's obviously NOT a parable.
---jerry6593 on 4/29/06

In Lk. 16:19-31, about the 2 compartments for the dead (Hades), some conditionalists believe that these 2 departments were Paradise and Torment. At Christ resurrection He took Paradise with Him to heaven leaving the wicked in Torment where they will continue to suffer with the other wicked until the ressurection of the unrighteous after which they will be cast into the lake of fire and eventually cease to exist.
---lee on 4/29/06

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#7.They are alot other scriptures.Rev. 6:9-11, 2 Peter 1:13,ETC.Ecclesiastes 12:7.One verse makes it quite clear that Ecclesiastes is referring to the physical side of death only(The body)), and not to what lies beyond, whether immediate life, or a resurrection following unconsciousness..Your bible seem to omit those scriptures.The theme of the book of Ecclesiastes is the way things appear "under the sun," i.e. to man.Yes, to man, the dead do not know anything.You err again!.
---Ramon on 4/29/06

#6.2 Cor. 5:1-8.He sums it all up in verse 8.And he goes on to say to "be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Obviously something survives that has life after the body dies. What is absent when one dies? The soul. It becomes separated. Where is the Lord? In heaven. And that is exactly where Paul said all who die in Christ are headed.
---Ramon on 4/29/06

#5.Notice he says he departs to be with Christ. This would be impossible if we go to sleep in the ground with the body, unless Jesus is in the ground too. Paul states that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is far better.Christ is in heaven, He's not in the ground, so if this was soul-sleep, he being with Christ, Christ would have to be in the ground.
---Ramon on 4/29/06

#4.Phil.1:23 Paul states to be with Christ is far better and to die is gain. But I live in the flesh For I am hard pressed between the two having a desire to depart and be with Christ which is far better nevertheless, to be in the flesh is more needful for you. What does Paul mean by I live in the flesh if he is not referring to the body.To die is gain. This would hardly be so, it would be a loss if one ceases to be alive. How could this be far better, is non existence better than existence?
---Ramon on 4/29/06

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#3.The rich man of Luke 16:19-31 also died and his body was buried. He went to a place of torment in fire.The same rich person of Lk. 16:19-31 that was tormented in fire could remember his earthly life and was fully conscious as he heard, spoke with Abraham, could see Lazarus and desire water. Hence, the SDA and JW companion teaching of soul sleep is unscriptural. See also Rev. 6:9-11(17) and 1 Pet. 3:19, 20.(l8)You have a different bible.
---Ramon on 4/29/06

#2.Moreover, this passage is not labeled a parable or under the description of parables, as such are oftentimes described in the Gospels (Mt. 13:3, 10, 13, 18, 24, 31, 33, 34, 35, 36, 53; 15:15; 21:33, 45; 22:1; Mk. 3:23; 4:2, 10, 11, 13, 30, 33, 34; 7:17; 12:1, 12; Lk. 5:36; 6:39; 8:4, 9, 10, 11; 12:16, 41; 13:6; 14:7; 15:3; 18:1, 9; 19:11;ETC.To accept the rich man and Lazarus teaching as a parable, as the JW want us to, is also to ascribe a very strange interpretation to it which cannot be verified.
---Ramon on 4/29/06

-jerry6593.In Lk. 16:19-31, Jesus gave some details about the abode of the dead, with its two compartments separated by a great, impassable gulf, as he taught of two people that died and where they went afterwards.Beyond his physical death, Lazarus joined Abraham in a place of comfort. Since Abraham was a real literal OT character, we know from this alone that this teaching cannot be parabolic, as the JW want us to think.
---Ramon on 4/28/06

Josep - the scripture that you listed supports the view that the wicked will not endure eternal torment but cease to exist after their prescribed punishment. The wicked go to hell upon their death, endure torment, awaiting the final judgement and the lake of fire.

The church traditionally has believed the there is consciousness after death of the body and based upon such passages as found in Lk. 16,Phil. 1:20ff, Lk. 23:43, etc. that view can be adequately supported.
---lee on 4/27/06

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Ramon - "People who ignore biblical doctrine of wicked being (eternally) tormeted are mislead by false teachers and not in "line" with the word of God."

There are several prominent theologians & evangelists that while totally believing in the Bible, reject eternal torment. One is John RW Stott, author of "Basic Christianity" which was a best seller.Another was Martin Luther. I would hardly class such as "false teachers" just bec we differ in interpretation.
---lee on 4/27/06

Ramon: You say "There are numerous passages that teach that humans are conscious after their death." Perhaps you would care to share a few of them. My Bible says "the dead know not anything (Ecl 9:5)." Do you have a different Bible?
---jerry6593 on 4/27/06

I need part three to finish this thought. Other related verses. (Psalms 37:10) (Mat. 10:28). Definitions: Die,(Eze. 18:4) to kill, destroy x very suddenly. 4191. Destruction (2 Thes. 1:9) to destroy, ruin. 3639. Perish (Psalms 37:20) To destroy utterly. 2704. Consume (same verse) To cease, be finished. 3615. All definitions are from the Strong concordance. Please look them up in the webster dictionary also if you are not yet convinced.
---josef on 4/27/06

Part 2 of 2. Other related verses. (2 Thes. 1:9) Everlasting here means "Age-Lasting" Greek Ref 166 from root 165. (Mat. 3:11-12) Unquenchable as used here means not to be quenched until its work is accomplished. Just as eternal fire reduced Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes. (Jude 7; 2 Peter 2:6) (Malachi 4:1) makes it clear, "That day will burn them up, it shall leave them with neither root nor branch" (Prov.10:25) states "As the whirlwind passes,so is the wicked no more"
---josef on 4/27/06

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Lee, you are entirely correct. However we are not to attempt to force anyone to think or believe as we do. For all of you who believe that the wicked will be tortured thru out eternity, consider this. "The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE. Ezekiel 18:4" "But the wicked shall the fat of lambs: they shall CONSUME; into smoke shall they consume away. Psalms 37:20" "They shall be as though they had not been. Last line of Obadiah 16 start at the 15th ver. Part 1 of 2
---josef on 4/27/06

God's first warning to the human race was this.
Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Did God lie to Adam?

Satan then said to Eve.
Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Who are you going to believe?

If what you believe is true, did God give Adam a fair warning?
---gerardo on 4/26/06

lee.People who ignore the biblical doctrine of the wicked being tormeted are being mislead by many false teachers and thus are not in "line" with the word of God. Your scriptures does not prove what you want them to prove, so this doctrine of yours are false.They is no idication within scripture that states that the wicked will disappear.You said to comment on that verse? But in fact i did.Believe what you want. Its sad to see people like you that are being mislead by.So sad.
---Ramon on 4/26/06

Ramon - No you cannot force anyone to believe the Bible but in this case that is not the case. The Bible clearly does not support eternal torment and no place is there any indication that the wicked are or will become immortal so that they will suffer eternal torment. Care to comment on 1 Thes. 1:9 where it speaks of "eternal destruction"?
---lee on 4/25/06

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You may believe whatever you wish. The fact still remains. You may continue to believe the false doctrine of wicked ceasing to exist. Believe what you want. I cannot force you to believe what the bible saids.
---Ramon on 4/24/06

#3.An example of the latter is his failure to correlate Matt 25:4 1 with Rev 20:10, in spite of the fact that he dedicates eleven pages to a study of Matt 25:41, 46.What is Fudge's hermeneutical technique for dealing with this prominent traditionalist argument? He simply does not address it. In so doing he actually weakens his case for conditionalism, by giving the impression that he avoids the traditionalist argument because he cannot answer it.
---Ramon on 4/24/06

#2.Fudge avoids the clear teaching of Scripture by setting up a linguistic smokescreen.Throughout The Fire That Consumes,Fudge appeals to linguistics in an effort to strengthen his case for conditionalism. Unfortunately, his work is marred by linguistic fallacies.Another feature of Fudge's hermeneutic is his occasional avoidance of aspects of biblical passages that are difficult to reconcile with conditionalism. Sometimes this avoidance takes the form of ignoring the strongest arguments of traditionalism.
---Ramon on 4/24/06

Lee.Fudges position has been thoroughly discredited, by writers both in and out of the church.Paul condemned using Jewish myths and fables in Titus 1:14!Rather than call himself a false teacher, Edward Fudge calls Jesus a false teacher!. "So you can see Ramon, that one does not have to twist Scripture to get at the truth." Yea tell me another story. The way annihilationists twist scriptures is unbelieveable!.
---Ramon on 4/24/06

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#2.In truth,the concept of death as used in the Bible does not mean non-existence, but rather separation.In regard to physical death, it refers to the separation of the soul from the physical body. In regard to spiritual death, in connotes separation of the soul from God.Primary definition of (thanatos)(death): (1) the death of the body (1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which life on earth is ended.
---Ramon on 4/24/06

-jerry6593. You say " Death is the cessation of life - with the absence of pain and suffering." Now we know who really reject the bible!.The Bible teaches death is not a cessation of existence, but a separation of existence.There are numerous passages that teach that humans are conscious after their death. The Physical life(body) ceases.Either you dont understand the bible or you just reject any doctrine in the bible that deals with afterlife.Which one its it for "you"?
---Ramon on 4/24/06

We should be concentrating on the joy we will have in heaven, not on the suffering of those who will not make it there.
But a lot of you seem to be licking your lips already at the pleasure you will get from watching, like those in the old paintings, the torments of those in hell
---alan8869_of_UK on 4/24/06

"..the truth is that the traditional doctrine of everlasting torture in Hell has created more atheists than almost anything else Christians have taught..." Dr. Edward Fudge "The Fire that Consumes".

Even F.F. Bruce who wrote wrote several Bible commentaries even agrees with that. So you can see Ramon, that one does not have to twist Scripture to get at the truth.
---lee on 4/24/06

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MikeM. May i ask what are you trying to say? The bible talk about only two places people can go afterdeath. Heaven or hell. God wont say "Or you just a molester, thats ok,come to heaven". They cant go to heaven.
---Ramon on 4/24/06

Ramon: The Bible clearly states that the wages of sin is DEATH. Death is the cessation of life - with the absence of pain and suffering. To believe in the eternal continuation of life, with attendant pain and suffering, you must either not understand the meaning of the word DEATH, or not believe the Bible. Which is it with you?
---jerry6593 on 4/24/06

Ramon; Skeptics, molesters, Catholics, sids-babies murderers all share the same eternal punishment? Your god is who?
---MikeM on 4/24/06

#5.We have already seen how "Your" scriptures does not prove annihilation. It is the followers of annihilation that are naive. They cant understand the bible or Greek words!.A belief in annihilationism is a result in a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines:(1) the consequences of sin,(2) the justice of God, (3) the nature of Hell.If we look into the writings of Like LaGard Smith.The moral dilemma presented is one that is based on emotions.Believe what you want.God bless
---Ramon on 4/23/06

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#4.It is ironic that the picture of nonexistence painted by annihilationists and described as hell, is almost identical to the picture of nonexistence painted by Buddhists and labeled as the ultimate reward (called Nirvana). Buddhists heaven closely resembles many annihilationists idea of hell!.The dogma of the Seventh-day Adventists and a few other misguided religionists is false.They is no scripture to prove that. But believe your false teacher doctrine.Believe what you want.
---Ramon on 4/23/06

#3.Its obvious that the idea of annihilationism did not originate from a straightforward reading of the biblical text. After looking at the way biblical verses must be bent, stretched,ripped out of context, and twisted to support the concept of annihilationism, one cannot help but wonder why this idea is so attractive to certain individuals.You say "eternal torment" brings fear, but what about annihilationsism? You cover up the truth with your "fear" and "manipulate" speech.
---Ramon on 4/23/06

#2.Skeptics, infidels, and others admit that punishment can be longer than the crime, but then they contest that forever is too long. Who says forever is too long? Would a hundred years be too long to punish a child molester? What about two hundred? It soon becomes obvious that determinations of too long are arbitrarily made by those (like skeptics and infidels) who want to reject the God of the Bible or (like annihilationists) the hell of the Bible.
---Ramon on 4/23/06

The idea that eternity is too long only tugs at human emotions when dealing with punishment, never with reward.Furthermore, it is ironic that those who are claiming that forever is too long to punish people for sins, have themselves sinned. Of course a person who is guilty of sin is going to want to lessen the punishment of that sin(not tormented forever).The naive followers believe in Annilhiation.
---Ramon on 4/23/06

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Colossians 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

The main motive for our service to God and men should be based on love; not fear.

But the teaching of eternal torment is a tool of fear used by those preachers to manipulate their naive followers.
---lee on 4/22/06

Ramon - "The world of skepticism has repudiated the idea of everlasting punishment."

you got that one right! more and more people are studing their bible and viewing the critiques. They see that the concept of eternal torment does not really fit with the integrity of God nor does it make too much sense that God would not eventuallly destroy that part of His creation that He will not grant immortality.
---lee on 4/22/06

lee.#2.The biblical doctrine of eternal punishment is as clear as a teaching can be; it is naught but human emotionalism that obscures the issue for some.The world of skepticism has repudiated the idea of everlasting punishment. No one complains that eternal happiness is unjust in the case of those who have served God only briefly on this earth.Bertrand Russell and Albert Einstein would not be a christian because the bible talks about Hell and fire.Believe what you want!.God bless.
---Ramon on 4/21/06

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