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Are You Calvinistic Or Armeanian

Do you consider yourself Calvinistic or Armeanian? Why have you chosen one over the other?

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 ---mima on 5/15/06
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Why would it matter that someone is Armenian? Maybe the Armenian Apostolic Church is heretical?
---John1944 on 3/7/08

I agree with what M.P.posted.
---shirley on 3/4/08

My Theology teacher made this stuff clearer to us when he said the following...
1. God is sovereign and we are responsible.
2. A do nothing theology and a do everything theology are both distortions of the truth.

I am a three and a half pointer, The Bible DOES teach some of these things that these men taught. [Calvin and Hobbes, oop's I mean Armenius]
---Jim on 3/4/08

Arminianism is the teachings of one man to counter the errors of Calvin. To base a theology on any one sided argument is error. Calvinists consider Arminianism heretical.
Arminianism remained in many forms. The Wesleyan, Nazarene, Pietists, Oneness Pentecostal groups, holiness churches, the Oxford movement and the social gospel have all been influenced by Arminianism.

I don't believe in Oneness theology that many arminians follows.

I choose to be a follower of Jesus Christ.
---Cindy on 3/4/08

There are five point Calvinists and five point Arminians, and at the same time three point Calvinists and two point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views.
Both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable.
God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation.
God makes perfect sense.
---Cindy on 3/4/08

Calvinism or Arminianism.
Both have scriptural errors.

I follow neither of them.
---Cindy on 3/4/08

None of the above.
I disagree with all 5 points of Calvinism.
You cannot compare the physical birth to the spiritual birth. Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." They are two different things. You will be better off if you will build Bible doctrine on what the Bible says rather than Calvin's 5 points.
---Cindy on 3/4/08

Calvinism is a philosophy developed by man depending on logic, human reasoning, with misuse of some Scriptures, and the total ignoring of many clear Scriptures.

It is true that God foreknows everything that will happen in the world. It is true that God definitely ordained and determined some events ahead of time and selected some individuals for His purposes. It is certain that people are saved by grace, and are kept by the power of God.
---Cindy on 3/4/08

But beyond that, Calvinism goes into the realm of man's philosophy.

It is a system of philosophy, especially appealing to the intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christians.
---Cindy on 3/4/08

I have a question for Calvinists regarding the falling away. there are two options listed in the pillars: either the person is backslidden but will be saved, OR he never was saved. doesn't that logic fly in the face of pre-destination in the willful act of backsliding? thanks.
---derek on 12/18/07

agree, God grants us the faith BUT has someone you known or maybe YOU chosen to reject the Lord when he was sending the Spirit to you? that was a FREE WILL of your choosing. to say we MUST give in to God is not Biblical
---r.w. on 8/15/06

Mima, I,am a follower of jesus of nazareth.I,am also a man ,a practicing christian,a sinner,a father,a grandfather,soon to be great grandfather,I belong to no organizations of any kind. why?cause I can,t control their thoughts and actions.the only man I believe is jesus.
---tom2 on 6/8/06

Alan, "we (the rest of us) was in answer to Eloy. He is perfect already so I responded to him alone. Sorry for the confusion there.
---karen on 5/28/06

Hello Alan, I have stayed out of this discussion because I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian. I think the point is that those of us who believe in the total depravity of man believe that man is dead in trespasses. That means we are unable to lift a finger (spiritually)let alone make a decision to accept Christ *before* God grants us faith. He bestows the gift of faith through His Word and sacraments, (baptism, the Lord's supper, holy absolution.) Faith is *not* a verb. Faith is a noun.
---Tina5349 on 5/28/06

Karen When I wrote the last 3 blogs I had not seen yours, marked 11. If I had I might have worded my reply a bit differently.
I wonder if it is a little wasteful to spend all this time an effort working out the mechanism by which we were saved ... after all it does not make us any more saved to know how it happened.
Having said that, the passages you & I quote were put in the B0le for a reason ... and if it does not matter how it happened they would not be there!?
---alan_do8869_of_UK on 5/28/06

2. If God had planned in advance that only SOME would be saved the bible would not tell us that He wanted ALL men to be saved - because that would be untrue. If a person believes that God has planned who will be saved it follows that He planned that all others are deliberately sent to hell through no fault of their own, but Christians will never actually say that. I don't see how anyone can believe one without the other.
---M.P. on 5/28/06

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I believe that the sacrifice that Jesus made for us is a gift. We can accept it or reject it, just like we can with any gift from anybody. When a person accepts Christ the angels in Heaven rejoice and our names are added to the Lamb's Book of Life (never to be erased). Scripture tells us that God would have that all men be saved BUT HE KNOWS THEY ALL WON'T BE. The fact that He would like us all to be saved but knows through foreknowledge that we won't all be shows me that we have a choice.
---M.P. on 5/28/06

Karen ... # 3 I am not trying to change your view, as I have said before ... I am merely asking that you do not say that because I believe a certain thing, it means that I do not believe something else. It is not for you to assume what I believe, and certainly when I have said that I believe something (God's soveriegnty), you should not try to say that I deny it.
How can you know?
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/28/06

Karen ... # 2 ... I am surprised to see your words "We (the rest of us)are working our way" Two reasons why: firstly, it is not for you to judge what we (i.e. not the rest of us as you call yourselves) are doing, & secondly, you are indicating that you need to "work" for that glory. Where goes "faith only"?
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/28/06

Karen ... # 1 I believe in a God whose Sovereignty is so geat He can allow people to have free will, who does not feel upstaged when they accept or decline His offer of salvation. And I do not say that I have done anything in the work of salvation. Christ did all that for me. Did you have to do anything to receive a present from your parents? Surely no, but you were free to actually play with that new toy.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/28/06

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11. I have not said you are not a Christian. As a matter of fact, the none-Christian doesn't believe in anything that has to do with God. It is the save that believe it, so in that case it was explain to you that you were save already. In the study of foreordination, and the attributes, character and nature of God you will learn first who God is. In the Calvinist view, God saves the person, by grace through faith, and from beginning to end, He is in control of our lives not men.
---karen on 5/28/06

Alan, can't you see that the free will of men is against God's sovereignty. Free will is the point the Arminians believe, That they, by their free will make a choice for Christ of their own power and abiltiy. Men keeps his own salvation or lose it if he wants, so in the end he gets the glory and honor.
---karen on 5/28/06

We (the rest of us)are working our way to that great day when we too can be glorified, that is Christ promise for the rest of us. In the mean time, He is our Mediator and our teacher.
---karen on 5/28/06

Karen ... Since you are saved already why is it so important now for you to believe that it was not because of your free will that you are saved? And why do you accuse me, because I ask questions about that, of not respecting your view?
---alan_do8869_of_UK on 5/28/06

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Karen ... # 1 if you read my blogs you will see that I do respect your views. I have said you may be right and I may be wrong, or vice versa. I have told you I do not want to argue with you about this.
My objection is when I am told that because I do not believe in Predestination, that means I do not regard God as Sovereign, and that it means I say that I have saved myself.
---alan_do8869_of_UK on 5/28/06

I am not Calvinistic nor Armeanian, but a Christian from Christ.
---Eloy on 5/27/06

Brother Alan, You are not force to believe anything. The question whether you want to learn to see if someone is right or wrong is by asking questions. If you care to know you would want to find out, otherwise you can just skip the questions. Another thing when I write something down it takes great work to do, so I would respect your view if you respect mine. Since you are saved already why is it so important now for you to believe that it was because of your free will that you are saved?
---karen on 5/27/06

But Lupe, I do not want to argue with you or with Wayne or Lisa or Karen, because your minds are made up, and you cannot see the inconsistencies in what you say. Similarly my mind is made up, and I cannot understand the things you point out to me. Perhaps it is pre-ordained that I do not believe in pre-ordination?
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/27/06

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Lupe ... But you say that the actions of free agent are preordained ... that surely means they are not free agants? It is because of this that you deny free-will, so I am surprised you made that comment. You have previouslt said there is no such thing a free-will, not one iota of it, so there are no free agents.
---alan_do8869_of_UK on 5/27/06

Lupe ... yes I was confused, because I misread what yoy were saying in your blogs of 5/27. You did not mention the word predestination there, and I assumed you were them talking just about God's foreknowledge, without Him have pre-ordered what everyone would do. If God does preordain, foreknowledge is rather a redundant word, because if God decides what the outcome willl be, He knows what the outcome will be, so the use of the word foreknowledge is tautology.
---alan_do8869_of_UK on 5/27/06

2. you seem to say free will is an illusion, can you explain that part a little for me?
---Lisa on 5/27/06

I totally agree with Lupe on his remarks, because God does what pleases Him. Though I don't understand foreknowledge or all the others attributes of God. I need to keep learning more about it. John, can you explain a little more about what you think on this matter? thank you
---Lisa on 5/27/06

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1V. coerce me to believe? I would rather have had my free will violated than to be here in this eternal place of torment." We know that all men are guilty of sin in the sight of God. From that mass of guilty humanity, God sovereignly decides to give mercy to some of them. What do the rest get? They get justice. The saved get mercy and the unsaved get justice. But nobody gets injustice.
---karen on 5/27/06

111. if He has that power, why doesn't He use it for everyone? The Arminian view is that God is not willing to violate the sinners free will. The idea here is that by God offering the grace of the gospel, God does everything possible He can to help the sinner get saved. Yet He has the power to coerce men but the use of such power would be foreign to God's righteousness. That doesn't bring much comfort to the sinner in hell. The sinner in hell must be asking, "God, if you loved me, why didn't you
---karen on 5/27/06

11. some people; (this is the obtion that Calvinist take) The nasty problem for the Calvinist is, If God can and does choose to insure the salvation of some, why then does He not insure the salvation of all? Before we can answer that question, we have to ask ourselves, "Does God have the power to insure the salvation of everyone? Certainly it is within God's power to change the heart of every impenitent sinner and bring that sinner to Himself. If He lacks such power, then He is not Sovereign.
---karen on 5/27/06

Alan, Here is the bottom line, 1. God could decide to provide no opportunity for anyone to be saved; (that is not the God of Scripture) 2. God could provide an opportunity for all to be saved; (the opportunities are not equal, since vast multitudes of people die without ever hearing the gospel) 3. God could intervene directly and insure the salvation of all people; ( here we know that He doesn't insure the salvation of all since many are in hell) 4. God could intervene directly and insure the salvation
---karen on 5/27/06

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He knows what we will do, but lets us reveal to the universe that His foreknowledge was absolutely correct by giving man freedom and then man does just what God knew He would do. This is truly free and God is revealed to be truly Lord of all.

Why have I chosen this view? Because this is the view I see revealed in scripture and I believe that thus I can truly give freedom to all others to choose to hear Him, to love Him or to refuse Him and hate Him.
---Wayne87 on 5/27/06

Neither. The Bible reveals that God is omnipotent, knows all things, is love. The Bible reveals that knowing all, yet He truly gives freedom to man--to obey or disobey--notice this is His gift. Choosing to sin, man lost freedom-a slave, dead in sins, alien from God. By the atonement Christ again offers freedom to every man, life in place of death, giving to man even the desire for something he has not, and grace to choose. Every desire, every power, every opportunity for good comes from Him, His gift.
---Wayne87 on 5/27/06

4. to take place. God's foreknowledge is complete, He knows the destiny of every person, not merely before the person has made his choice in life, but from eternity. And since He knows their destiny before they are created, and then proceeds to create, it is plain that the saved and the lost alike fulfill His plan for them; for if He did not plan that any particular ones should be lost, He could at least refrain from creating them.
---Lupe2618 on 5/27/06

3. So the events which we see coming to pass in time are only the events which He appointed and set before Him from eternity. Time is a property of the finite creation "US" and is objective to God He is above it and sees it, but is not conditioned by it. So His foreknowledge is certain to come to pass. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but is not itself foreordination. The actions of free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, but they are foreseen becuase they are certain
---Lupe2618 on 5/27/06

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2. You see Alan, the problem with us is that we are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as "Past" "present," and "future." is all "present" to His mind. It is an Eternal "Now." He is "the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity." Is. 57:15. "A thousand years in Thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night,"
---Lupe2618 on 5/27/06

Alan, I have never said, foreknowledge was a heresy. You are confused. How could I? I believe in the Sovereignty of God, Alan. His foreknowledge and His foreordination are part of His Sovereignty. Speaking to the prophet Isaiah the Lord said: "I am God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" Is. 46:10.
---Lupe2618 on 5/27/06

Lupe ... I am confused, becuase I think I recall you saying that "foreknowledge" was a complete misinterpretation, and was a heresy?
You now seem to be saying that God "for-knows" rather than pre-determines. And yet, you have always consistently said that God does "pre-select" those who He will save, and that He does not just for-know this.
---alan_do8869_of_UK on 5/27/06

3. then the third and so on. A view which is altogether inconsistent with a true view of His Nature. He would then be gaining vast stores of knowledge. His goverment of the world also, in that case, would be very uncertain and changeable, dependent as it would be on the unforeseen conduct of men. That is why I say it is men centered. men determining the future with their decisions, but that could not be because God foreknowledg is certain to happen.
---Lupe2618 on 5/26/06

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2. History will follow that course as definitely as God's promises, or the the seasons changing. If the acts of free agents, are in themselves uncertain, God must then wait until the event has had its issue before making His plans. In the case of trying to convert a soul, then He would be conceived of as working in the same manner that Napoleion is said to have gone into battle-with three or four plans in mind, so that if the first failed, He could fall back upon the second, and if that failed,
---Lupe2618 on 5/26/06

Alan, I have said this before only because others don't stop to think about where faith comes from. I only answered you because you responded to me. If you believe in God's sovereignty and that the work of salvation was by Christ and not yourself, that is great because, that is what Scripture teaches. You see, if future events are foreknown to God, "and they are" they cannot by any possibility take a turn contrary to His knowledge. If the course of future events is foreknown,
---Lupe2618 on 5/26/06

Lupe ...++ 1 You have said all this before and I am not arguing with your theory, or trying to persude you to accept mine.
My point is that you say that "Free-willers" (that includes me) deny the Soveignty of God. You also say that I believe that I saved myself.
Will you not accept that I accept God's Sovereignty, and know that the work of salvation was by Christ, not myself.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/26/06

LINDA: I LOve your responce well said!
---Carla5754 on 5/26/06

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2. not of works, lest anyone should boast." Here not only the grace but the faith is part of the gift of God which saves and cannot be exercise by one's own power. God's grace is preeminent in every aspect of salvation. Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20). If you think that faith comes from you as few people do, in order to reoncile their theory, then it does not reconcile with Scripture. If you have that true faith, then it came from God as a gift, and you are able to believe.
---Lupe2618 on 5/26/06

Alan, any one can figure this out. You don't have to be a Christian to know this. "How can you believe in Christ and make a commitment for Him without faith?" If you say, Lord I believe in you, and you really mean it, then you must have to have that true faith to believe it. If you don't have it then your commitment is false cause you don't have true faith. Now, Scripture tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God,
---Lupe2618 on 5/26/06

We are in agreement. The 85 word search for clarity sometimes creates ambiguities.

Absolute free will is the illusion.

Because God is not willing that any should go to hell, HS woos all, knowing who will or will not accept it. That is part of their condemnation; none can say that they were not pursued by HS.

That is a great reason why I a am active in Evangelism Explosion at church
---John_T on 5/26/06

Lupe ... you see, once again you tell other Christians what they believe, in the same way you have told me that I deny the Sovereignty of God.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/26/06

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Lupe ... you say "The question is, if you think you were the determinator of your salvation? And the Christians that believe that theolgy believe they made the choice without God doing anything. It came from them"
No Lupe ... Whoever said God did nothing? God died for me, & gave me the choice of whether to say "yes"
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/26/06

John T ... I am not quite sure what you are trying to say to me there. Firstly you say that Freewill is an illusion. Then you say that the choice an "unregenerate" has is to accept the wooing of Holy Spirit. That is what I mean by "saying yes" ... thus I had free will.
Or do you claim that God decides that the HS will only woo certain people, and the rest be left unwoo-ed?
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/26/06

3. to your answer that you are not saved, the answer is, you are, if you have faith. And I know you do because for one, you would be doing other things instead of fellowshipping with all the other brothers and sisters and debating Scripture. You would probably be at the bar, or partying with others, and not using you precious time talking about God. This is not a problem for the unbeliever because he doesn't care what we think.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

2. the one and most important question in that believe is, the faith to believe in Christ comes from God. So before you can believe, faith has to come to you. Without it you don't make choices for God you make free choices for other things in life but never for God because you don't have faith. It is impossible to believe without faith. One question that no one can answer unless, and I say UNLESS, they believe the faith came from them. And that is not what Scripture tells us.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

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Alan, the people that are lost do not even care about God. They don't question their salvation, they are lost already and have emnity against God. It is the saved ones that want the free will. When they are saved. So in that case you are saved. The question is, if you think you were the determinator of your salvation? And the Christians that believe that theolgy believe they made the choice without God doing anything. It came from them.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

Free choice is not contradictory to God's sovereignty, but it is an illusion; it is not absolute.

The only "choice" offered to an unregenerate is to accept the wooing of Holy Spirit, or reject him. All else comes as a result of that choice, hence the illusion of free choice.

No matter how moral an unregenerate tries to be, he can NEVER please a just and holy God (total depravity), and good works do not merit heaven.
---John_T on 5/25/06

Eventually, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father because every eye will see Him. It is far better to bow the heart and knee now by choice than to have to do it later on by command.
---Linda6563 on 5/25/06

Lupe #5 But I know I did say "yes" and I believe that it was my own decision.
I may be wrong, may be right.
But please don't say that I deny the Sovereignty of God, because in effect you are then saying that I am not a Christian.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/25/06

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Lupe #4 Now you may say that it was God who decided (from the very beginning) that I would say "yes", so I had no choice in it.
I cannot prove otherwise, so you may be right!! You may be right that nearly all the human race will not have a chance to say "yes" because God has decided that they will not have the choice.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/25/06

Lupe #3 ... But I must also reply to this cooment "In the Arminian view, men saves himself, men can give that salvation he earn by refusing it later and losing what he earned"
I do not know what an Arminian is ... but as far as I am concerned, I am under no illusion that I have saved myself, or that I have earned salvation.
All I did was to say "yes" ... cont
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/25/06

Lupe ... #1 Indeed we have had numerous discussions before, and I don't think that we will change our different views! I was not trying to argue against Calvinism.
What does concern me that you still appear to insist that those who believe in Free-will deny the Sovereignty of God.
That is not the case, because we still regard God a total Sovereign, as much as you do. The difference is that we think that a Sovereign does not have to be a dictator and can allow his subjects choice.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/25/06

Now that we haver basic understanding, rather than repost, and upset mods :) I ask you to review my posts here on 5/15&16.

The issue is not "is JohnT right?" and that is very egocentric, but rather "Is that an explanation of what Scripture says?"

That was my purpose, building up, explaining. Nothing else.
---John_T on 5/25/06

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3. Just think about how many people are in the world making choices with their free will, God would have to be changing every second in order to get His plan to come be complete. God does not work in time, He ordained everything that is to happen in one moment in infinite time. He does not learn as He goes, He is Omniscience, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. There is no surprises for Him. Not one.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

2. there is many points to discuss in these two views but each one has to be address one at a time. God Sovereignty is much in question. For if men is in control with his free choices God's promises would be in doubt. They do work together but God is still in control. If He is not then we have no assurance that His plan will be complete and that anyone of His promises will come through.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

Alan, now I am addressing you. I believe that the Calvinist view is God centered and the Arminian view is men centered. In the Calvinist view God saves, the believers salvation is in the hands of Christ who promised it, and that no one can frustrate God's plan, God is in control. In the Arminian view, men saves himself, men can give that salvation he earn by refusing it later and losing what he earned, and the plan of God is in men's hands and not God, so men is in control.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

Alan, I don't think I replyed to you on this blog since I know what you believe. You are addressing me and I don't understand why. In the subject of Predestination, "Predestianation" the word speaks for itself. "Foreordination" that word speaks for itself also. Is there something I can help you with so I can answer. But be specific, so that I can take one thing at a time. Don't throw at me all kinds of stuf but let me answer one at a time. That is if you were addressing me.
---Lupe2618 on 5/25/06

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Lupe ... As I have said to you privately, the discussion between those who believe in Predestination, with no free will, and those who believe in Freewill, has nothing to do with the Sovereignty of God.
(I believe in Freewill, and that the refeence to predestination in the Bible mean something different to what you believe. I claim 100% that God is Sovereign, who choses to give us choice)
Please stop implying that the Freewill person denies the Sovereignty of God.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/24/06

John T; I hope you are correct. In any religion its the mainstream that must call to task the extreme elements. Like the SDA condemning the Branch Davidians. I have been in contact with a professor in S.C at a well known school who is reconstructionist, claims most Calvinist go along wirth it. Good to know Rohsdooney, Gary North are considered the extreme.
---MikeM on 5/24/06

Roshduny (sp?) and North are no more representative of the Reformed tradition than that hate-mongering "pastor" on Texas who calls homosexuals "fags" and protests at fallen soldier's funerals is a representative of Baptists.

MikeM, you correctly state that these are repugnant to most people, however you wrongly ascribe the aberrant views as indicitative of the whole.

Make sense?
---John_T on 5/24/06

I am more of a Calvinist,also a democrat.I am willing to grow and be molded to a fine christian life .I don't think it does any good to keep stepping on Democrats along the way! We are christians and I will always wonder about your sanctity and why?We live our faith and for others,all the time.I guess there is a place for everyone!lulac3895
---Lula_Carolyn on 5/22/06

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2. for they don't have a desire for God anyway and they love what they are doing now. How can a Christian funtion believing in what they can do then what God can do? We already know what we could do and that was make a mess of everything. I don't think it is hard to sit down and take a close look at all the passages with an open heart and see the God of Scripture.
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/06

Mike, I hear a lot of people talk against the Sovereignty of God. Much of it since I was saved. Many have such a misconception of it that they worry about a lot of little things when all the while we are supposed to be dependent upon God anyway. When we were lost I could see that, but not now. Our prayers, our hope in Christ, our salvation hang in what God can do, not what He cannot do. Many get mad about their free will, and I mean the save person, not the lost,
---Lupe2618 on 5/22/06

Mike, your problem is then with that school, but not with Calvinism, per se.

None of the books I had in seminary had reconstructionism in them. It is like calling the gifts of the Spirit in question because some yahoos print unsupportable stuff, and trespass into Mormonism, focusing on extactic experiences while forgetting the foundational doctrines.
---John_T on 5/22/06

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