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Work The Crowd Up With Music

Some churches, such as Pentacostal, Assembly of God, and many Non-Denominational Churches play songs over and over again and again in order to work the crowd into a spiritual nature. How do you feel about this practice?

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 ---mima on 6/5/06
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Okay, I can name many, many worship CD's that have music that is produced by "charasmatic churches" that do not have the same phrase repeating. I know because I have actually read the lyrics to learn them and sing them. Hillsong is a perfect example- very charasmatic church in Australia and they have a lot of lyrics in their songs- especially the ones written by Darlene or Reuben.
---MichelleS on 11/10/07

Let's see- Christ for the Nations does have a lot of complicated lyrics that take forever to learn and are definately not repeating. Another one- Lakewood church- their music is phenominal and they have some wonderful lyrics. Put some organ music behind it and it's a hymn. People need to get their facts straight before they go making those comments about the repeating music mumbo jumbo.
---MichelleS on 11/10/07

One more thing- the chorus is supposed to repeat-that's why it's called a chorus.
In heaven they sing the same chorus over and over again so why is it so hard to do it down here? I'm sure people who are not controlled by the Spirit of God can enter a trance like state. I have sung in charasmatic churches all my life. I have never entered a trance and never plan to.
---MichelleS on 11/10/07

Another one of my responses did not make it. I will try again. That is a good practice among spirit-filled churches. Music was designed to move us and make us get off our rumps. We are to raise our hands, stomp our feet,make some noise in the house. Music help us do that. I refuse to belong to a church that did not understand this concept.I like live musicians and live music. Not piped in music and overheads. No way!
---Robyn on 11/8/07

Going to church and afraid to lift our hands, sing,worship and praise God is an abomination before him. Some do not even want to kneel down now. I feel privileged to belong to a spirit-filled church where God is in control. My pastor is spirit-filled, knows how to preach and teach. He knows what and how to do it.Under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Praise God for him.
---Robyn on 11/8/07

As far as style of misic goes, that is our pref, we are simply to use skill, talent and joy with thankfullnes
---douglas on 11/3/07

Just because every one else tired of the "discussion" before you did does validate your position. If that were the case, there would be some very strange and erroneous "validations" here on many subjects.
---Bruce5656 on 6/19/06

Rocking back and forth is not sitting quietly.
---Donna_Smith2277 on 6/19/06

Donna; The sufi's rock and roll back and forth, what they experience is all done sitting aster chanting for a long period.

I have noticed that all have bailed from this thread. My points, I guess, stand.
---MikeM on 6/19/06

Mike--Believe it or not, Pentecostals also experience the Holy Spirit when sitting quietly. How do account for that?
---Donna2277 on 6/16/06

You don't know anything about the working of the Holy Spirit- how could you when you reject him so hatefully? You are mixing the HOLY with evil witchcraft and sorcery. I wouldn't be in your shoes for nothing!
---T.S. on 6/16/06

t.s. native Americans, shamans, hindus, Sufi's" and others. I BOLDLY say the experience of pentacostals is exactly the same. I do know a lot on the subject, but I would be accused of being pedantic if I used jargon. The cultural rhetoric is different but the experience is essentially the, a bio-chemical reaction, stumuli to beats and rythems. Much study of it has been made. Dancing David in scripture was then,unique to the Jewish cultural experience, not open to be usurped by pentacostals or others.
---MikeM on 6/14/06

Mike-ALL body functions are regulated by bio-chemicals...hunger, thirst, wakefullness, sleep, even respiration. Endorphins (self-produced alalgesics)
from the pituitary are measurable, but not those from the hypothalamus, so levels are incomplete. Endorphins increase measurably in response to pain, anticipation of a stressful or challenging event, even eating chocolate and laughing . So even if endorphins are produced by a touch from the Holy Spirit, I cannot see that this invalidates the experience.
---Donna2277 on 6/13/06

Donna- yes, I agree with you.

MikeM: Your presumption of me and the "good/bad scientist" thing is incredibly moronic- you certainly have a talent for twisting words and making mountains out of mole hills. Oh, and your post to Donna was equally foolish-
"native Americans, shamans, hindus, Sufi's"- how DARE you put the precious HOLY Spirit of the living GOD in the same league with withchcraft and false idol worshipers?!
---T.S. on 6/12/06

T.S. Sorry to sound like I was disagreeing about your concept of Heaven. I can imagine what you described. It may be that way. I can also imagine a deep hush falling upon us all standing in awe of His prescence. (I have experienced similar when in the that I could not speak a word) Just like to counter-balance the idea that Pentecostals do nothing but shout and jump.
---Donna2277 on 6/12/06

MikeM-- you are trying to explain what you've never experienced, using a science about which you know only a little. On another blog, you say that "Pentecostals parrot dionysian worship" Is that what David did when He danced before the Lord? (Most Pentecostals never heard of Dionysus. How do you "parrot" what you know nothing about.) Mike, there are pentecostal counterfeits around, we've all seen them, but that doesn't negate what the Holy Spirit is doing in those that submit to Him.
---Donna2277 on 6/12/06

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T.S.- "HOW can you hold a secular scientific study above the Holy Word of God" I do no such thing. I see nothing is science or nature to disprove the Bible, in fact the opposite is true, on both a faith and science a based level I see see strong evidence for God. A sinple ontology shows atheism takes greater faith than belief in God. I only declare that the pentacostal experience is bio-chemical in its source, nothing more.
---MikeM on 6/12/06

T.S.;"REAL SPIRIT FILLED WORSHIP, IT ONLY DESCRIBES RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY ARE ARE IN THE SPIRIT." So good scientist discribe and correctly define the mistaken actions of the apostate pentacostals who 'think' they are in the spirit, as opposed to the right non-mistaken pentacostals who are in reality under attack by bad atheist scientist. I now have clarity on the issue.
---MikeM on 6/12/06

Excush; "you dont know anything but science" Really? I guess that book lernin' ruined me.

"you don't have anything to say to christians" I apologize for smugness.
---MikeM on 6/12/06

Donna; this can be measured. Be it native Americans, shamans, hindus, Sufi's, or pentacostals, the rhetoric may be different, but the esperience is all Bio-chemical. One can ignore objective reality to protect faith, or accept objectve reality and reassess. My ONLY contention is that specifically pentacostalism, and all the hootin' and hollerin' is not a manifestation of the divine, not anymore than for trance induced Hindus or Sufi's.
---MikeM on 6/12/06

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MikeM: Don't take this wrong, seriously, but you have educated yourself right into ignorance! You can't explain the power of God's Spirit with scientific studies. OF COURSE they're going to try and discredit it, most scientists are athiests, don't you know that? HOW can you hold a secular scientific study above the Holy Word of God- that is EXACTLY what you are doing. And my friend, I don't "bail" on things like this- you're not talking to a 'wrong-side-of-the-tracks hick" OK?
---T.S. on 6/12/06

Donna, no, I've never been there either- but I've read about it, and I believe my description comes a lot closer

MikeM- I can, and WILL, answer the question again!- The trouble is, I've already answered it- Endorphins have nothing to do with REAL SPIRIT FILLED WORSHIP, IT ONLY DESCRIBES RELIGIOUS PEOPLE WHO THINK THEY ARE ARE IN THE SPIRIT. How much plainer can I be?! The word says that those who don't have the Spirit of God, do not understand the things of God
---T.S. on 6/12/06

Mike-- Any reaction in the body is bio-chemically induced. Endorphins are self produced "pain-killers" excreted by the pituitary and hypothalamus.Pituitary endorphins can be measured in the blood but NOT those from the hypothalamus which enters the CNS. It is unknown whether the "runners high" occurs because of the physical exertion or because of the challenge inherent in the sport. Perhaps endorphins play a part in spiritual experiences as well (which doesn't mean it is not of God)
---Donna2277 on 6/12/06

The reason they bail on you is because there is nothing more to discuss you dont know anything but science you need to be discussing your Ideas with people like yourself you don't have anything to say to christians.
---exzucuh on 6/11/06

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Donna, You wanted data, there are more if you request it. In the fianl analysis what pentacostals experience is bio-chemical in its source. It is at this point in such a dialogue that they always bail. I welcome any reality based refutation, a rhetorical refutation is is a non-refutation. My only point is that pentacostalism is apostate, more in line with Dionysis than Jesus.
---MikeM on 6/11/06

Donna; Here are some more studies;
Margolis, Simeon. The Johns Hopkins Medical Handbook. New York, NY: Redley, 1995. 140-141.
Simantov, R. & Snyder, H. (1976). Morphine-like peptides in mammalian brain: Isolation, structure elucidation, and interactions with the opiate receptor. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 73: 2515, 1976.
---MikeM on 6/11/06

Donna;Morphine peptides in mammalian brain:Religious experience, interactions with the opiate receptor. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA), 73: 2515, 1976.
Foye's Principles of Medicinal Chemistry (5 ed.). Philadelphia: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins.
Endorphins and Development of the Western religious tradition; Dr. S. Stalcup PHD. UC Riverside monthly, 1993
---MikeM on 6/11/06

That's right Donna. Legalism as well as esoteric practices in the church is unbiblical. To the enemy's delight, both miss the mark.

All Christians should strive to be Bible-balanced. The only way to be balanced is to be rooted & grounded (Ps. 1:1-3) in what God says in the Bible (Gen.-Rev.). No more (overshooting) or less (undershooting).

Peace sis!
---Leon on 6/11/06

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MikeM-- What is all this about not getting your questions answered.? Looking back, I see only ONE question you asked: "Do you deny endorphins exist?" (which has been answered)You often complain that your questions remain unanswered. If you ask a direct question, you will likely get a direct answer.. I'm sorry that past experience has turned you against pentecostals but neither that nor your "endorphin" theory (no data given) justifies calling us "apostate".
---Donna2277 on 6/10/06

O Mike M
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
---Exzucuh on 6/10/06

"you are teatering dangerously close to crossing the line of blasphemy. or mere emotions." I asked some simple questions, they could not, can not, and will not be answered. The other gentle mens points were reasonable as well. The running from the question, concerning 'endorphines' only solidifies my point. No, its not mere emotions, its bio-chemical. So mine, and our point(s) stand firm.(You do have the option of answering the question)
---MikeM on 6/10/06

MikeM--I've studied A & P and work in the medical field. I know what endorphins are. I've also experienced "runners high"... totally different from the "pentecostal experience", with which I'm also personally quite familiar. I don't agree with those who think it's not God unless it's loud and crazy. The HS works as well in stillness. And TS, when he describes heaven, doesn't know what he's talking about any more than you do. He's not been to Heaven yet to know what it will be like.
---Donna2277 on 6/10/06

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Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
---exzucuh on 6/10/06

2. You may think you are attacking us "poor ignorant tongue talkers" but you are not. When you laugh and make fun of us PENTECOSTALS, you're not hurting us, you're hurting yourselves in the end..... because you are speaking agains the moving of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD ALMIGHTY, and that is the ultimate show of ignorance. May God have mercy on your souls
---T.S. on 6/10/06

"You've only been around 110 yrs. or so. Where were you before that?" -Uh, I believe the first of us were in THE UPPER ROOM, a WHOLE lot longer ago than 110 yrs.

MikeM, ThomasD, rw, and Dave- you are teatering dangerously close to crossing the line of blasphemy. This is not about a denomination, or lack of control or mere emotions.
---T.S. on 6/10/06

I know at my church, some songs we sing again and again. Not to 'work up the crowd', but because it is a song that our hearts want to sing over and over to God.
---bethie on 6/10/06

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They blew a trumpet, by God's order, to bring down the walls of Jerico and David played the harp to a demon possessed king Saul. God has ordained instruments and song for various purposes. There is a place for the loud and rambunctious and a place for the quiet. Neither is wrong unless used for the wrong reason. Can you imagine playing the harp to bring down the wall and David blasting a rams horn to sooth Saul?
---john on 6/10/06

To all, You can't talk to dedicated pentecostals about their faith, they don't listen.The quiet person on the back row is just as spirit filled as the ones that can't sit still. God knows your heart and if God is in your heart nothing else matters. No church is spiritually dead if the word of God is being taught. Pentecostals think they got the real thing, God loves all his children, not just pentecostals. You've only been around 110 yrs. or so. Where were you before that?
---Thomas_D. on 6/10/06

african tribes know the power of rhymic drums. lucifer was the chief musician. these tongue talkers and slain spiriters have REAL experiences, but it comes from A spirit-not THE Spirit.
---r.w. on 6/10/06

I guess my question was too tough for this thread, thus my point stands.
---MikeM on 6/10/06

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Leon: "The enemy of our soul doesn't care if we over or undershoot the mark just as long as we miss it" AMEN. As a Pentecostal, I've seen them often depend on "feelings" and "signs" above God's Word. But some believers seem so obsessed by "law" that they miss the power of HS or the freedom Jesus gives. IMO our focus should be Jesus, who said if He be lifted up, He will draw all men unto Him. The enemy can distract even by things that seem "spiritual".
---Donna2277 on 6/10/06

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the (Father will send in my name,) he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. the Holy Ghost only comes in the name of Jesus there is no other name in heaven or earth above that name.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

Amen T.S. I am with you. You explained it in a very crazy but true spirit. The real worshippers won't need anything else then what is already inside of them. I like the part about the electric wire.
---Lupe2618 on 6/9/06

Now I will agree with you that when God is talking we need to be quiet and listen, in services where tongues and interpretation are given the church becomes still at the voice of the Spirit and also with prophecy but not in worship, you can worship any way you want but don't attack true worshippers,a curse came on Davids wife for attacking his worship method of loincloth dancing.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

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Was Praise and Worship leader in a home Bible Study group for six years and I didn't have to work anyone up by singing over and over.I led the singing after much prayer and leading by the Holy Ghost and I would sing until the Lord released me to move to the next song. It's called anointing and when God is moving you don't want to run Him off by rushing. There is no trance,how foolish man is ,when the flesh tries to explain the Spirit of God. Trumpets,marching,and a shout brought down Jericho's walls.
---Darlene_1 on 6/9/06

Yes I say Amen, and I feel sorry for those who will never know the power of the Holy Ghost the ones who just talk about him they don't Know him thats why they think he's an it. They don't know him personally.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

careful bro, you are right in one respect, ruach ha qodesh thats his real name and title by the way it means the spirit that calls out and separates is indeed a spirit of power no doubt. but the modern counterfiet "holy spirit" is also very powerful and extremely deceptive and very difficult to discern! what may help you is if you check story of sheep and goats in mathew.
---dave on 6/9/06

excush; "You look at every thing from a carnal veiw thats Anti-Christ" I do not look as 'everything' with a carnal(earthly) view. There is so much that trancends this 'carnal' physical reality, pointing to Gods existance. What happens in the pentacostal church's does not. Endorphines in the bloodstream animate pentacostals to this behaviour. Again, do you deny endorphines exist? Clouding the subject with a plethora of rhetoric wont change the facts. Do you deny endorphines exist?
---MikeM on 6/9/06

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4. And if you think those that HAVE been touched by Him act crazy down here, like I've already said, you are NOT going to be very comfortable up THERE when we all are no longer inhibited by physical limitations and are just allowed these little glimpses of His glory, but are TOTALLY free and standing in his physical presence! There will be millions of us, and NO ONE will tell us to sit down, be quiet, and act proper. Can I get an AMEN out of the REAL WORSHIPERS???!!!
---T.S. on 6/9/06

3. YOU have apparently NEVER ONCE been touched by the indescribable POWER of God's Spirit, because you would know what it was like to YEILD and not QUENCH him.
---T.S. on 6/9/06

2. REAL Spirit filled worshipers do not get 'worked up' into endorphin highs- religious people do though. The REAL manifestations that Spirit filled worshipers exhibit are just the physical reactions that their bodies have to the magnitude of God's power that is moving on, in, and through them. Grab a frayed electric wire whiled standing in water and see if YOU can manage to stand there and quietly whisper "uh, could someone please help me when you get the change, I believe I'm being fried".
---T.S. on 6/9/06

MikeM- No, I don't deny it, but, what does that have to do with REAL worship in the REAL Spirit?! Not a thing. It might have a LOT to do with religious people who shout and holler and roll around in church, then go out and drink, cheat on thier spouses, and lie like a dog- so what? WHAT is your point? You can't even spell pentEcostal correctly, so how do you think you're an expert on the moving of the Holy Ghost?
---T.S. on 6/9/06

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Exzucuch--I don't think so.

I KNOW so.

Where did you get the idea that noise and confusion was necessarily the Holy Spirit?

As it is written, "Be still and know that I am God." And don't forget Elijah's enounter with God in a "still small voice" after a lot of noise and blustery storms.
---Jack on 6/9/06

What kind of signs and wonders do you think the word is talking about. Is it a sign the Holy Ghost is moving when nothing is happening when you are so called decent and in order Anybody can have a church where people just sit around doing nothing. The Holy Ghost is real and he does real stuff if he dosen't do anything in your church I would not want to go there.I want to be where theres power of God's Spirit not dead flesh.
---Exzucuh on 6/9/06

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
---Exzucuh on 6/9/06

the flesh profiteth nothing it is the Spirit that gives life.You look at every thing from a carnal veiw thats Anti-Christ, Christ meaning Anointed one, Anointed being the Holy Ghost making your view Anti-Holy Spirit. Stevens last words you stiff necked and uncircumcized how long resist ye the Holy Ghost.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

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exzucuh; None of those quoted scriptures relate to do with what pentacostals do.
The ancient Israelites were fresh from a pagan culture(Egypt), and God was showing Himself to people who were basically young sheep.
T.S.-Do you deny that the human body produces endorphines? The Holy Spirit is not a cosmic bell boy, a lucky charm in ones pocket one summens with a runners high. That is the height of vain self-deception.
---MikeM on 6/9/06

I actually read this whole blog. Wow! There are some very interesting comments here.

If I may add, everything that's done in corporate worship should be done in a decent & orderly manner (1 Cor. 14). It's indecent to work up (manipulate) worshippers for any reason.

The enemy of our soul doesn't care if we over or undershoot the mark just as long as we miss it. Like the Apostle Paul said (Phil. 3) we should press towards the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
---Leon on 6/9/06

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, (AND STOOD A FAR OFF).Psalms 98:4-7 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm. With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

Sorry T.S. I was talking to mike M.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

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1 Chronicles 15:28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.Psalms 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

T.S.I believe people like you are already apostate the Holy Ghost is taught and his methods are in Acts if you can not believe the word of God you have no buisness even dicussing it.
---exzucuh on 6/9/06

That doesn't even make sense. What are you TRYING to say?

"I believe the 'pentacostal experience' is part of the great apostasy." -????

You're walking on mighty thin ice there, you're not coming against people, emotions, or an experience. You're speaking against the moving and the power of the Holy Spirit of God
---T.S. on 6/9/06

T.S. You make my point better than I do.
---MikeM on 6/8/06

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Mike M- then you'd better change your plans to spend eternity in the ROCKIN-EST, LOUDEST, CRAZIEST, MOST JOYFUL, UNINHIBITED, FREEDOM FILLED PRAISE&WORSHIP-FEST OF THE AGES then, cause brother, there ain't gonna be NOBODY up there quietly sitting on a pew singing a dried up song about how miserable life is out of a hymn book!!!
---T.S. on 6/8/06

Jack--No I haven't read any 2nd or 3rd century books lately (but I'm not a historian or a theologian) How do they describe worship?
---Donna2277 on 6/7/06

Donna, sorry, the beats and rythems in pentacostal churchs lead to what can be called a 'runners high,' the release of endorphines. Its all too human, based on a biochemical reaction within the body. You can affix words like spiritual or spirit slain, but its as divine as running for an hour to get 'pumped up.' I could ecplain this in detail, but all will bail, further proving my point. I believe the 'pentacostal experience' is part of the great apostasy.
---MikeM on 6/7/06

There are plenty of descriptions from the first three centuries of Christian worship.

I wonder if anybody on this blog has read any of them--or even HEARD of them before now.
---Jack on 6/7/06

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Thank you T.S. for you comments. Finally someone agreed with me. I will remember your name from now on. I know we all have our opinions but really, we should be so in love with Christ that we just cannot get enough of Him. I have been in Christian groups where we are all talking and I begin to talk about God and passages and it seems no one is interested. Its like I am talking to people at work, from the world. Some get up and leave. Strange. I sometimes I cannot understand that.
---lee_1 on 6/7/06

2. have to take music to keep us there. I love to hear the word because I am one of those that always checks what is said. I keep record of what is taught and then I look it up to make sure it is from Scripture. I know that is my interest first. I do love the music but I do think they put too much imphasis on it. Sometimes more then the word. And it does cut down the time for God's Word. Its like going to a rock concert.
---lee_1 on 6/7/06

Mike, at the former church I went to, they played music for an hour and a half. I loved the music and really got into it. They trained young men ahead of time just in case the first group didn't show up the next group played just as good. I asked the pastor why and he said it was the most important part of the church time. He wanted to get everyone going and in the mood or else the people would not come. He was trying his best to keep them from leaving. It can be a great purpose but it shouldn't
---lee_1 on 6/7/06

(I CAN'T believe I'm going to say this!) I....agree....with LEE! Whew, that was hard! :)

Those who love the Lord with all thier heart don't NEED anyone to "pump them up"! His statement bears repeating- you should already be pumped up when you get there. If you're not, then why are you going??? A friend's dad used to tell her when she would whine "Dad, do we HAVE to go to church?!" -"No. You GET to go to church" Any true Christian can't wait to get there.
---T.S. on 6/6/06

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Eloy, I totally agree with you. Singing prepares the heart for hearing God's Word.
---shira on 6/6/06

What is this "trance-like state"? I've been going to pentecostal churches for years and never experienced it (nor have I ever hyperventilated in church). If I'd known about this before I could have probably gotten some druggies to try church instead of meth :-) Pentecostals have been around much longer than "hip hop" or "rock"..they used to sing "grand old hymns" from the Hymnal. Pentecostals sing the same songs as other Evangelicals, but with more exuberance.
---Donna2277 on 6/6/06

To get the congragation 'pumped up' in a church meeting is to manipulate the crowd. The beats and rythems are inducing a trance like state some may call spiritual. It is, in the final analysis all too human. That is not to say that music cannot be spiritual and uplifting, it is to say that demagogic clergy can use music to control and entrance the laity, for his own, or some other entities purposes.
---MikeM on 6/6/06

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