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Christian Flag Pledge Allegiance

With the 4th of July coming up, I have to ask, should a Christian pledge his allegiance to a flag? Is not doing so unpatriotic?

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 ---tc on 7/1/06
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I am NOT a Randian, but Ayn Rand was right to point out:

"Today, when a concerted effort is made to obliterate this point, it cannot be repeated too often that the Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals--that it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government--that it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."
---Ktisophilos on 7/23/07

The free market has done more to alleviate poverty than any other system. Socialism has impoverished countries instead. As Churchill said, "The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery."
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

Absurd to compare the stockmarket to gambling. Sure, if you invest in one or two companies to "get rich quick", this is a gamble. But a long-term investment in lots of companies or something like an index fund is no gamble. E.g. even an investment a fund matching Dow Jones the day before the Oct 87 crash would be worth many times that now.

It was disingenuous for the AARP to call the stockmarket "gambling" while advertising a number of mutual funds themselves!
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

It shows the appalling teaching of the American schools that FDR is idolized. For counteraction to this socialist propaganda, see FDR's Folly: How Roosevelt and His New Deal Prolonged the Great Depression by Jim Powell and The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression by Amity Schlaes.

Previous depressions were over in a year or two. Roosevelt's contant interference in the economy prolonged the depression and it was only the horrors of WW2 that ended it.
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

Read also John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath. He accurately portrayed the horror of starving people watching as food was destroyed at FDR's direction to keep the prices artificially high.

And FDR's constant changing the rules made businessmen afraid to invest, which meant fewer jobs. Minimum wage laws meant that many people were unemployable, because their output was worth less than their wage.
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

NurseRobert, Milton Friedman suggested that Enron would have been prevented if it were not for laws against "insider trading". Friedman argues that if this were allowed, then there would be an incentive for accurate information to reach the market sooner. I.e. if insiders knew there was something drastically wrong with the company, they would sell lots of stock and the price would tank. So the market would know far sooner that the company was a dud rather than waiting for the annual report.
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

"promote the general welfare", at the time of writing, did NOT mean that the government forcibly confiscates wealth to distribute to their favoured mascots. Rather, they relied on the generosity of Americans to the poor, rather than the current gigantic impersonal welfare bureaucracy that costs far more.
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07


To show that the Constitution did not teach socialism, despite the propaganda that some schoolkids are subjected to, look at the words of James Madison himself:

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article in the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents. With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. .... "
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07


Democrat President Grover Cleveland, vetoed drought relief bill, 1887:

"I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, & I do not believe that the power and duty of the General Government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit.... The friendliness & charity of our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow-citizens in misfortune."
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

Democrat President Grover Cleveland cont.:

"Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the Government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood.... Though the people support the Government, the Government should not support the people."
---Ktisophilos on 7/20/07

Ralph cont: Your lack of knowledge about the Working Poor just shows that you have been deluded by the idea that a free market economy is the only acceptable economy for America. I highly recommend that you educate yourself by reading the book, "The Working Poor."
---Madison1101 on 7/20/07

Karen: Isn't it a wonderful country that we can voice our dislike for our government?

I am very thankful what God has blessed me with. With all my problems, I know that God is very good to me.

You feel that terrorists should not have rights. Where does this end? With the Terrorists? With the Jews? With the Catholics? With the Christians?? Our country is BASED on rights. YOU should be appalled that this country would take ANYONE's rights away.
---NurseRobert on 7/30/06

In all your statements you are alway complaining something is not right to your liking. Instead, be thankful for everything you have, what God has given you. You should be thankful that you even woke up this morning. You don't like the way this country is run and so you complain about everything, even to the point of giving the terroist their rights. Instead of defending the security of this nation you are willing to distroy what so many have given their life's for in protecting our nation.
---karen on 7/10/06

Karen... what makes you think that people "hate " this country?
---NurseRobert on 7/6/06

#2 Nurse, I suppose this all does sound like "gambling" to some people...and of course one has to take a few risks. Hope somebody finds a way to keep businesses more accountable.(I invest outside the market,also...more diversification) The market is interesting, always more to learn, but I don't do it for "thrills". It provides something besides SS to live on. I don't see how I'm "exploiting" anybody, though.
---Donna2277 on 7/5/06

#1 Nurse--yes. More Co.s lately are cooking the books, manipulating trades of their own stock..looks "fine" to the accountants! it's hard if you are fairly young,looking for good growth and small caps. Naturally they haven't established a track record. But if you make 150% on one, a sm.loss elsewhere hurts less. I'm old now, buy mostly stock that pay dividends (because I need the cash). And I'm SO diversified I confuse myself! But that adds safety to any strategy. Sounds like you'll do well!
---Donna2277 on 7/5/06

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Madison. you asked me a question. So i'll tell you. your views on issues, and the political people you support do not line up with what God says. Sorry, but you asked.
Get mad if you must. The good thing about the pledge is, you don't have to participate. That's the freedom it represents. God first, then family, then country. Are you familiar with Rev Herb Lusk?
---wayne on 7/5/06

Donna: I have nothing against wise people investing their money for retirement. I was countering your statement that the stock market is not gambling by pointing out some harsh realities about it.

My statement about gambling and the stock market was originally addressed to someone who said that the rich work hard to get their money.
---Madison1101 on 7/5/06

Actually, Donna, I dont have anything against the stock market either. Like you, I dont work for a company that offers a decent retirement package, so I try to invest wisely. In fact, I recently did very well with a company called Ceradyne (made about 150% on my investment.) but lost on a pain management company. That was because they were falsely reporting their earnings. There are a lot of of dishonest people out there.
---NurseRobert on 7/5/06

Alan and Nurse-- I've never used the word "hardcore" here. You must be thinking of someone else.
Madison-- I've already explained that I AGREE that some people gamble on the stock market, think they can "get rich quick", get addicted.. and eventually lose everything.

Of course, if you want to know about gambling addiction you contact Gamblers Anonamous.
If you want to learn about the stock market go to any department of Business Admin. or Marketing at any University.
---Donna2277 on 7/5/06

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Alan of UK--What are you talking about? I haven't read all the back messages but as far as I know NOBODY has called me HARDCORE anything. Consequently I've NEVER MENTIONED it. ??????????
---Donna2277 on 7/5/06

Why don't you guys take the knife out of Madison's back, you may need it for someone else!
---NV_Barbara on 7/5/06

Madison, there are ALWAYS alternatives and choices to be made. People want many things but aren't willing to commit the hard work over time. The way you promote is based on covetousness, looking at what others have and judging that they have too much so you are entitled to some of their belongings. If it is deemed that they aren't "sharing" enough of what they have, the next step is to legislate legalized theft of whatever you think they should be giving up. Sorry, there are better ways.
---ralph7477 on 7/5/06

Donna .. this should have been posted to you, not Nurse Robert. ... where did I say you were one of the hardcore I mentioned?
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/5/06

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Nurse Robert ... where did I say you were one of the hardcore I mentioned. Where did I say it was wrong to invest in stock?
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/5/06

cont5: If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. People go to Gamblers Anonymous because they are addicted to gambling, and it appears a lot of them do it on the stock market.;
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

cont4: Gamblers Anonymous, recognized as the most successful treatment for the compulsive gambler, has long known the problems that compulsive gamblers have created through involvement in the stock market.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

cont3: Leading experts in the gambling treatment field knew all along the devastation caused by compulsive gamblers to themselves and their families through gambling in the stock market. Dr. Robert Custer, considered an expert on compulsive gambling, recently testified at the New Jersey Governor's Advisory Commission's meeting that stock market gamblers represent over 20% of gamblers he has diagnosed.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

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cont: In the weeks that followed, stock market gambling calls represented 44% of all hotline calls.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Is the stock market gambling? This is quoted from Gamblers Anonymous:

October 19, 1987 will be remembered by most people as Black Monday-the day that the Dow plunged 508 points. We at the Council will remember it as the day the securities gambler came of age.
Prior to October 19, 1987 calls for help from stock market investors who crossed over the line to compulsive gambling represented 2% of our statewide Helpline 1-800-GAMBLER calls for help.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Madison--I don't like what Wal-Mart's doing either. Didn't some state try to force them to provide health insurance? Also some state (Maryland?..I dunno)is requiring everyone to have health insurance. They say they will provide "affordable" insurance to anyone who makes too much to qualify for Medicaid. I'll be VERY INTERESTED to see how that works.

(but I still buy some things from Wal-Mart because they're cheaper and it's nearby)
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

Nurse--I don't feel "ripped off" investing in the stock market. And you wouldn't believe how much I lost in 2002! But it was my own fault. I've earned it back in 2006. I just make sure now not to put too much in any ONE company so my losses will be less.

And to those who think maybe I'm not being a "good steward" I say, again, the unprofitable servent was the one who buried His talent instead of lending it out. Buying stock is LENDING cash (even a sm. amount) to a CORPORATION.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

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Nurse Robert--I didn't SAY that YOU said Enron represents capitalism...didn't mean to IMPLY it...had no intent to put words in your mouth. But I have heard Enron used over and over by MANY people as an example of corruption in business and the "evils" of capitalism. To ME that is the equivalent of using Stalin as an example of Socialism.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

I remember when I was first married, and my husband was in military intelligence, we had a copy of "The Communist Manifesto" on our coffee table when friends dropped by for dinner. What a dinner conversation that was. My husband had a top secret, special intelligence clearance. Our phones were tapped and house was bugged, on and off base. Oh the good old days!!!

The military, unfortunately, does not always have the same privacy rights that they swear to protect.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Nurse: Will there be a Senate Committee on Socialist Christians like the Red Scare back in the day.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Nurse--I said what I did about London because Madison (whom, incidentally, I did not call a communist) had used the UK and Europe as examples of viable governments who have accepted a degree of Socialism. My point was that the government intrusion that comes with Socialism requires some sacrifice in individual this case the right to privacy. Having recently discussed this right I felt the example was apropos.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

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If you guys hate this country so bad why are you still here? It seems that you don't like anything this country represents and continue to complain, yet living in a country bought with the lives of many in the military. And yet it is not enough. Why not try another country, like Mexico and see what they do to those that speak against their country. It is embarassing to hear you every single day complaining about your rights.
---karen on 7/4/06

Madison-I think you are painting industry with a rather broad brush to say that most exploit workers. Many provide free use of on-site athletic facilities, free psychological counseling (some here would consider that a detriment) and even free college education to promising and dependable employees. Labor unions bargain on behalf of their members (not not always to their benefit IMO)to prevent exploitation.

Sure some CORPORATIONS are corrupt and dishonest, just like some PEOPLE are!
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

truly being patriot is not in a pledge of allegence but in the actions of people in their lives some people say the are christians but their lives say otherwise. saying the pledge is a option that should be left up to an individual we are protected by the constitution
---Exzucuh on 7/4/06

Madison, I know what you're saying. The Tech "boom" of the 90's caused many to try to "get rich quick" on the market. They DID gamble,loved the excitement, and lost everything. But generally wealth does not come without hard work. Small business owners might love to work a 40 hour week. Instead they usually work 50 or 60 with high debt and no benefits. I studied as hard learning to invest as I did in grad school. The greatness of this country is more than rights, it's OPPORTUNITY.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

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Ralph: Fewer and fewer employers are providing medical benefits to their employees. Plus, many employers, like Wal-Mart, primarily hire part time employees in order to avoid paying benefits. It is a growing trend in our country.

Add to that that the number of employees without benefits exceeds the number of jobs with benefits, and you are left with the fact that there are some people WHO HAVE NO CHOICE but to get a job without benefits.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Donna, you said: "In London there are hundreds of thousands of video cameras (with zoom-in capability) lining the streets and in every public place."

Guess what... we dont LIVE in London. We live in a country where the laws are written to protect our rights.
---NurseRobert on 7/4/06

MADISON??? You're a commie, red pinko???? I need to call Sen. Joe.... or maybe Ronnie...;)
---NurseRobert on 7/4/06

Donna, kindly do not put words in my mouth. I never said that Enron "represents capitalism" YOU did.

YOU said: Investing in the stock market takes research, knowledge of markets and trends, calculations, comparisons and planning... but most losses occur because the investor hasn't done his homework.."

That certainly is not true. How many more Enrons are out there? It's not a level playing field and the everyday investors like you and me are the ones getting ripped off.
---NurseRobert on 7/4/06

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Wayne: Are you implying that I am not saved because I do not say the pledge of allegiance?
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Donna: My retirement is rooted in investments, though I don't necessarily have them in the market. I am not judging the stock market, or those who invest in it. I was trying to make a point addressing someone who said that the rich all work hard, which is not necessarily so.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Madison, you ask "why shouldn't the government help pay for medical needs?" My question is why should it? Is that what the founders had in mind? Now if you mean state or local government I would be less inclined to object, but the Federal Govt. has no business being involved in health care. The constitution provides that any authority not specifically given to the Feds can be undertaken by the States.
---ralph7477 on 7/4/06

Donna: I tried to post several quotes from a Gamblers Anonymous website discussing gambling addiction where people were using the stock market to get that gambling high.

There are many on Christianet who say a drop of alcohol is sin. That said, would those same people say that any gambling (stock market or otherwise) is sin, in that it is not being a good steward of the money earned, plus the companies where the investments are made are usually exploiting the working people?
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

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Madison, we all have made decisions in our lives that have led us to where we are today. Nobody's life goal is to be poor or destitute, however some are led to that end by the choices they have made. Everyone has different priorities in life. You chose a job which provides medical benefits. Others, like your son who you describe as very smart, apparently decided that medical benefits were not paramount when looking for a job.
---ralph7477 on 7/4/06

Alan of UK--I agree 100% that Socialism is well intended and usually born of compassion. We need reforms in THIS country, esp. in health care. It is a CRISIS... will probably end up as socialized medicine (unless some genius can think of a better way). I might be proven wrong, but I have never known a case or country where Socialism as an ECONONMIC SYSTEM has worked well.It may relieve hardship for some (and make abuse of the system profitable for some) but most people,IMHO, are worse off in the long run.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

P.S. Alan of UK, NurseRobert etc--great corporations could not exist without workers.
They ALSO could not exist without STOCKHOLDERS (most of whom, contrary to popular belief, are ambitious middle class people, not the upper class rich).

Wayne--Congrats on finishing nursing school. I know the hard work and sacrifice it takes. Sounds like you will be a credit to the profession.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

Alan of UK--I've NOT made a fortune and have at times lost some money foolishly. I live at or below the "poverty line" but every thing I own is paid for. HOW AM I TAKING ADVANTAGE? I'm no longer able to work. What should I do with my savings? Bury them in the ground like the unprofitable servant? No,I LEND my money to corporations who provide jobs for those who are able to work. I greatly respect workers with job skills I do not possess. I've done some menial jobs myself and look down on no one.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

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NurseRobert--tell what to the ex employees of Enron? Their situation was even worse than you say because most of them did not CHOOSE to buy Enron stock (Those who did are paying dearly for their mistake and I came close to doing the same.) Enron invested large amounts of retirement funds in their own Enron stock. Those workers who lost their retirements are the innocent victims who deserve reparation.

Thinking Enron represents capitalism is like saying Stalin represents Socialism.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

MOD: Some of my posts on gambling addiction are missing.

Moderator - Multiple mods, I don't know. If you believe everything said was OK, just resubmit. Otherwise, modify and resubmit.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

Because Madison is left of center does not make her a communist. I disagree with socialism as I do not believe is works economically, or individually, but it does not mean she or one on the left cannot be patriotic, or believe in God, that is ignorant. What she says sounds a lot like what was called "Fabian socialist" 100 years ago. What some hostle people are saying to her here is whats called "reactionary."
---MikeM on 7/4/06

I was just listening to Dr Michel Yousef, he was telling about living in Egypt, and how God allowed him to come to the USA. For those of you who don't say the pledge, try living in places like China, Korea, and Viet nam. you'll get on your knees to say the Pledge, might even get saved while you're down there.
---wayne on 7/4/06

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People who want things handed out to everybody, a redistribution of wealth is thinking communism, that's dangerous. It don't work. Just look at Cuba and the quality of health care they get. I'm for programs to help people get on their feet, but not to keep the lazy people. I'm thankful I worked my way through nursing school, was flat broke when i started.
---wayne on 7/4/06

Donna.. tell that to the people who invested in Enron. They did their research, they looked at the numbers and were lied to..
---NurseRobert on 7/4/06

Ralph: Your statement about the poor choosing to be that way is just plain wrong and shows an ignorance of the history of the poor people in our country, and the causes of poverty.

Since I have taught inner city kids for 15 years, and studied poverty for three, I have learned so much about the realities of poverty and the myths that people like you believe.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

clay2: I would gladly give up luxuries to ensure my son has the care he needs, unfortunately, I have none to give up. I don't feel sorry for the rich having to give up luxuries to ensure that hard working people like my son have the medical care they need.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

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clay: Your generalization is so wrong. My son has an IQ of 160, graduated from graduate school with a 4.0 average, and works 70 hours a week at a job without medical benefits. He has a growth in his groin and needs an ultrasound. Why shouldn't the government help him pay for the medical care he needs? Equal is not equal in this case.
---Madison1101 on 7/4/06

I am a stranger and a soujourner here and belong to an eternal kingdom (not democracy) in the heavens patiently awaiting the day I finish my course and exit the garbage-barge of temporal earth by the grace and power of the Spirit of God, having faith in Jesus Christ, his Son. I don't really care if I'm not patriotic towards this country. I'm not traitor, but won't pledge allegiance to it or it's flag. It is but a place to spend my days while I await my Lord.
---Frank on 7/4/06

If you make your fortune just playing the stock market, you are in a way exploiting those who actually produce the wealth you take for yourself. And that gives certain responsibilities.
A difficult balance.
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/4/06

I accept capitalism as a means of generating the money with which busines is funded. But those who invest and grow rich on the stock market should remember this, that it is all very welll to be smart enough to move your money round the right shares. But without those who have another kind of smartness ... such as how to design an aircraft, or use the tool with which to make it, or perhaps have just the humility to sweep up the swarf, or make the tea for the others, those businesses would not be there.
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/4/06

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I believe a measure of socialism, looking after those who are incapable of doing so themselves (the sick or injured, for example, or the unemployed, to keep their families fed as they find another job) is a way of putting a Christian principle into general practice. As long of course as it does not stifle initiative, and make it more profitable to collect benefit than to work.
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/4/06

#2-Madison, yes, Englanders are patriotic. But you complain about our HSA inspecting phone records... In London there are hundreds of thousands of video cameras (with zoom-in capability) lining the streets and in every public place. Any moment you are out of your home you are likely on camera. Londoners don't complain about this or protest it as infringement of their "right to privacy". They are used to this sort of gov't control. Socialism always icreases gov't intrusion into daily life.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

I am wholly hostile to marxism, which wherever put into practice, has proved to be godless. And in my country, socialism has proved inefficient, as too much state ownership produces inefficiancy.
However, the principle behind socialism is not Godless, and many British socialists have been great Christians. It's just the way it has been put into practice which has deadened individual initiative, and created a hardcore of people who rely on state handouts, and do nothing to look after themselves
---alan8869_of_UK on 7/4/06

#1 Yes, England and most,if not all, of Europe, has some form of Socialism. But it's no panacea, When I was there the news told of several cancer and heart patients who waited months for surgery, only to be rescheduled again and again because of emergencies. They died before ever getting surgery. People spend all day in a Clinic waiting room for minor but painful ills. Doctors come to the U.S. from Canada in order to use the knowledge they have without being dictated to by the gov't.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

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Madison--I don't say this to offend, but you know NOTHING about the stock market (and probably don't care to). Investment goals for many people are VERY specific (e.g. the goal of making a 10% return).Nobody I know invests for the "feeling" they get.(If they do they are soon broke with nothing to invest) People invest to make MONEY. I never had an employer that provided retirement benefits, but I always saved what I could. I work hard at investing and it's keeping me off welfare in my old age.
---Donna2277 on 7/4/06

Madison, you boast that you have been educated by Marxists and it clearly shows. Marxism by definition is also Godless. Without a faith in God, people are forced to rely on Government to provide everything for them by confiscating the earnings of fellow citizens. Madison, most of us, whether rich or poor have chosen to be so. There are plenty of poor people who lost it all in the stock market. Some people make wise life decisions and some do not. That's what freedom is all about.
---ralph7477 on 7/3/06

You want to wait in line for medical services? The poor get richer, that's where the rich come from. I started out poor out of high school but eventually owned a house and 20 acres, I'm back to nothing but I do not need you or my government to hand me anything. Created equal does not mean every one is the same. Some are smarter than others. Some are leaders. But we have equal protection under the law regardless of those abilities. The poor get rich by working, not by socialists re-distributing wealth.
---Clay on 7/3/06

tc: FDR saved our nation from ruin... I don't feel sorry for the RICH who had to give up their luxuries.
---Madison1101 on 7/3/06

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cont 2: "Investment goals are unclear, they are in it for the feeling it gives them as they experience the highs and lows and struggles surrounding the play. When this activity starts to affect relationships with spouse, family for employer or causes financial problems, they have subtly crossed over the line from "investing" to gambling."

Gambling is gambling.
---Madison1101 on 7/3/06

Madison--gambling is a game of pure chance.

Investing in the stock market takes research, knowledge of markets and trends, calculations, comparisons and planning. There are always unforseen factors, but most losses occur because the investor hasn't done his homework or is depending on the wrong person for advice.
---Donna2277 on 7/3/06

Donna: There are governments that are partially socialized, not completely.
---Madison1101 on 7/3/06

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