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Independent Vs Southern Baptist

What are the main differences between an Independent Baptist and Southern Baptist?

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 ---Tom on 7/25/06
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The difference between an Independent Baptist and the Southern Baptist is that the Independent Baptist sends missionary by the authority of the church while the SB has the convention as the sending agency to direct the missionary.
---Edwin_Jardinel on 7/31/07

"fundamentalist baptist" churches make non-important issues paramount importance when they're not justifiable. Example: 1Timothy chapter 2. This is clear text according to them. Well, what about other "clear texts"? Do they let their women have short hair? Do they great each other with a holy kiss? Do they make their women wear head coverings? NO-- even worse, they have no explanation of why 1 Timothy 2 is so important, yet the others are disregarded with no explanation.
---Keith on 6/6/07

I come from an IB background and now attend a SB church. I still read the KJV, I listen to some Christian alternative music and hymns. Both groups believe in the same foundation--the gospel. Diffrnces in the Bible they read and music they listen to are up for debate; however, the Holy Spirit is present in both churches and dare I say it...even in a Methodist, Lutheran or Presbyterian church. We are all in the body of Christ and He sees us as his Children..not his IB or SB child.
---Larry on 9/22/06

Honestly! If you want to prove something, you can find someone - somewhere who has done research on the subject to either support it or to undermine it!! Groups like "Jars of Clay" and "Mercy Me" are fully supported & endorsed by many respected Christian organizations. They have made appearances on shows like the 700 Club and have given their their very powerful & moving testimonies. God can & DOES use this music to reach young people.
---Crystal on 8/21/06

2. I understand the music has a great impact on people in many different ways. I also knew that many were out there getting people emotional to bring them to Christ and I knew it was wrong. God's word convicts the hearts of the lost, so the people I knew were saved were the one's that I gave the music to. I felt I needed to help in some way so I did that for a few years. You are perfectly correct in saying that music can direct a persons life the wrong way. Thank you brother for the info.
---Lupe2618 on 8/21/06

Thank you also from me Elder for your comments on the study. I always like to hear from you. I use to record music cd's and give them out to the members of the church free. I knew that if they were down and needed sometimes a lift in their spirit, they would listen to this music and God would energize them again. It did for me, and when I would hear a song from Ray Boltz I would cry as I listened to him sing, "Feel the nails" or "Watch the Lamb"
---Lupe2618 on 8/21/06

Jack, you can listen to the music from the year 200 but I will stick with the ones from 19th and 20th century. Have you really heard songs from the year 200??
---shira on 8/20/06

Crystal, thank you so much for your kind words. I know your heart is in the right place. Bro. Elder: Thank you for coming up with this study concerning the effect of music on individuals. Where do you get all this good stuff from? I use to have literature concerning this issue, but I have misplaced it. Music certainly does have. effects on human behavior and sexuality.
---shira on 8/20/06

I wonder what this study has to say about youth who prefer to listen to and play Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms?

**In fact, I prefer the old-time gospel songs every time. **

Most "old-time gospel songs" date back only to the late 19th century, which is fairly early as the history of Christian music goes.

Give me REAL old-time Gospel songs like the Trisagion, or Christos anesti or Phos ilaron (which were referred to an "ancient" in the 200's).
---Jack on 8/20/06

This is from a study done by Columbia University in New York City.
In a startling new study, researchers from Columbia University in New York City have concluded that boys' choice in music can predict their future risk of HIV infection.
Led by Miguel Munoz-Laboy, the research team tried to decipher the complex behaviors and attitudes of young men in the United States, specifically through their musical
Cond #2
---Elder on 8/20/06

Cond #2
While the music industry hotly contends there is no link between music and sexual behavior, the young men who participated in this study disagree.
Cond #2a
---Elder on 8/20/06

Cond #2a
Munoz-Laboy told AFP that images of scantily clad women in submissive roles in hip hop music videos had a "real impact on their lives." He said, "There is a connection. You see it in the way people dance, dress, and it has an impact on their sexuality."
The point of the research was to examine the culture of boys ages 16 to 21 in an attempt to develop HIV prevention programs.
Cond #3
---Elder on 8/20/06

Cond #3
It's important to note that boys from three different New York neighborhoods listening to certain types of music doesn't cause HIV infection; rather there appears to be a link between a preference for certain types of music and the risk of HIV. Based on a behavioral and mathematical analysis from the study, the boys were divided into two musical groups:
1. Hip hop, reggae, reggaeton, rap and rhythm and blues.
2. Rock, heavy metal, pop, techno, electronic and gospel.
Cond #3a
---Elder on 8/20/06

Cond #3a
Boys who were active in their church and listened to gospel music where techno, pop and electronic music is preferred took the most sexual risks and used condoms inconsistently--both of which raised their risk for HIV infections.
Cond #4
---Elder on 8/20/06

Cond #4
This is the edited version of the study but you can see something wrong going on.
Music has a voice of its own. That voice in not in the words of the song but in the sound of the music.

---Elder on 8/20/06

I love you too. But, honestly, I am not trying to convince you of "my way." My way would be a little, white chapel in the middle of the woods. It would have a steeple high in the sky ringing its bell to call everyone from miles around to Sunday morning services. Those services would consist of "Bringing in the Sheaves," and an old-time sermon. Of course, there would be an ice cream social afterwards. However, God has people in the gutter to reach too.
---Crystal on 8/20/06

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Crystal, I love you sister.....lets call a truce.
---shira on 8/19/06

Alan, I am sorry, I took what you said the wrong way. Crystal, you just won't let it along will you? You have spend many words trying to convince me of your way. I just don't see it your way.
---shira on 8/19/06

And just a tiny little clarification...

I am NOT trying to convince anyone of "my way." In fact, I prefer the old-time gospel songs every time.

I am only concerned about HIS WAY, and I refuse to limit Him with my personal prejudices. He is MUCH bigger than my opinion.
---Crystal on 8/19/06

Shira ... I'm not sure why I put "Godly" in those quote marks. perhaps as a way of expressing my dislike of most of the modern worship songs, which are Godly for some but not for me.
I don't know where you got the idea that modern worship music tickles my ears ... I said "anathema" which means the opposite!
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/19/06

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John T. That is fine. It didn't really bother me and you are forgiven. I have never set myself up above anyone else. I am dirty rags and am nothing and have nothing unless my Savior gives it to me. I have strong convictions as does Crystal----and we clashed. lol. She tried to convince me her way was right and I tried to convice her my way was right and we both lost. I still stand my ground.
---shira on 8/18/06

The reason I pushed you erroneously is that I noticed some "women??" who were condemning others, and setting themselves up as superior.

Something you said made me think that you were repeating the tiff of Rebecca, acting like those women, and that you actually were Rebecca.

Sorry again for the mix up.
---John_T on 8/18/06

Shira: I apologize, I mixed you up with Rebecca.

Please forgive this slight. (Perhaps I am also getting old!!)
---John_T on 8/18/06

Alan, you made a point to put in parenthesis "Godly" music of today. What is Godly music today? I am glad the "modern" praise and worship tickles your ears. I am "old" and I sure love "old time music" and I got saved as a teenager thru the sound of "old time" preaching and "old time" songs. I am thankful for the old time way. Can't remember where, but the bible says to seek out the old paths. Wonder what that means?
---shira on 8/18/06

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I could learn a lot from you. You are always so level-headed and reasonable, yet you make your points so simply. You have a gift.
---Crystal on 8/18/06

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, Crystal and Alan of U.K. The pantyhose, oh well, I don't wear them.
---shira on 8/18/06

Shira ... I agree with is about the ear-plugs!"
I would not be saved by rock music, nor would I be saved by most of the "Godly" music we hear nowadays. But that's because I'm me!
With some people God uses brass bands (like Salvation Army) with others, wonderful old hymns, with others, modern worship songs (anathema to my ears)
There is no reason why God should not use the rock style of music to help reach a certain group of kids.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/18/06

Calm down? Are you serious? Call me crazy, BUT it seems to me like you may be the one who had their "pantyhose in a knot."

Anyway, OF COURSE teens have been saved by many other means. Good-old-fashioned- hell's fire preaching, a quiet hymn, a "how to be saved" tract, a television braodcast, and the list goes on. God uses many different methods to draw people unto Himself. But He uses Christian Rock TOO. That is my point, and I won't limit God when he is able.
---Crystal on 8/18/06

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Crystal my dear lady, I am also a follower of God as you are so calm down and we can be friends who just don't agree on certain issues. All the people that were saved because of a rock band, I am grateful, but they could have been saved with Godly music also. I have seen many teens saved without using rock music. Also, while all the teens are being saved thru rock music, just think of all the ear plugs the rest of the church would need.
---shira on 8/18/06

I am not a fan of rock music. I'm not even a fan of Christian Rock music. But I am a fan of Jesus Christ - and a FOLLOWER. I don't try to tell Him how to do things. I look to Him to do a new thing. I know He works in each man's/woman's heart to draw him/her to Himself. I'm sure He had to use something different to get my attention, and I am just glad He is drawing these young people to Himself. They are, afterall, the generation to carry on His work.
---Crystal on 8/18/06

John T. I have not had a tiff with anybody. It seems they have one with me. I don't remember anything with Madison.LOL. Madison who?? Why are you getting into this anyway? Are you a fan of rock music? When I was young I remember thinking little richard was "IT". Now, I look at him and he is sissy and disgusting. My, how things evolve.
---shira on 8/17/06


What a wonderful, wonderful story! I was so uplifted by your recounting of this "circle of salvation." It reinforces what I've known for some time. We who minister to our youth are not laboring in vain. I've seen powerful things happen at these concerts. Things that seem to be sadly lacking in our churches. Sometimes I think we get stuck on "this is how we do things" - always have / always will, when God is looking for a new thing. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!
---Crystal on 8/17/06

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Shira: "You can't seem to see past your face." and "you are naive"

I am respectfully saying this, you are 67.
Remember the tiff you had with Madison? Seems as if you are doing the same thing here; IT IS OVER NON-ESSENTIALS--AGAIN
Methods change, not the message. Reaching today's culture means using their tools.
Last night, I heard one senior complain about the youth Pastor's use of Power Point and story-telling as "not preaching Bible"
---John_T on 8/17/06

Ok, that's two slaps from you, Shira. I'm "naive" and "can't see past my face." I'm sorry that in your 67 years of life you have not learned how to disagree in love. I think you are getting a little frustrated with the "proof" you asked for being posted. Many young people are saved as a result of Christian Rock Bands. This is distressing for you for whatever reason. I'm sorry, but may God soften your heart and teach you that insults are non-productive.
---Crystal on 8/17/06

Shira: You are right. Few churches could afford to bring in a group like Jars of Clay. They are celebs among young Christians. They make their money from recordings. And if they worked for "love offerings" they'd drown in a flood of invitations from every church with a youth group. Most churches have to settle for "Plastic Pots for Jesus" trying to sound like "Jars Of Clay". The Lord, however, can use anybody (famous or not) who seeks to glorify Him.
---Donna2277 on 8/17/06

#5 So, tell me how can you say that a Christian teen band does not lead people to Christ with lasting fruit? Hundreds, if not more have been saved just because one teenage boy invited another teenage boy to a concert. Praise the Lord. If we are to be fishers of men, we use the bait that will catch the fish!
---Gena8493 on 8/16/06

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#4 The ripples continued to more outward and reach more people. Now that son who was invited to one of those teen concerts and got saved, is an associate pastor, and the young girl is now a missionary. Their father, my chiropractor teaches bible studies at his church and witnesses faithly.
---Gena8493 on 8/16/06

#3 Dad went, and he got saved! Started going to church and learning about the Lord. Then their mother was invited to a concert to see the kids perform and she got saved!
---Gena8493 on 8/16/06

#2, The son got involved in the church and the youth group. Then he invited his sister to a concert. She came and she got saved. Both kids started praying for their parents. Then the son asked his dad to come see him in a concert.
---Gena8493 on 8/16/06

My chiropractor told me this story. He was divorced, unsaved and uninterested in the Lord. A teenage boy invited his son (teenager) to a concert at their church. His son got saved. (cont.)
---Gena8493 on 8/16/06

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Crystal, please, I never call anyone names.
You can't seem to see past your face. But I have resolved to let it go and you can believe what you want and I will do the same. I have strong convictions and have been around a while. I am 67 years old and I have seen the evolution of the so called "churches" and what it has come to.
---shira on 8/16/06

Have I ever called you a name, Shira? I've never said you were naive, or stupid, or blind, or anything of the sort? No, because I don't think that is loving. Yes, we've disagreed but I think we can do so respectfully. Didn't I make the point that many speakers and/or singing groups perform for love offerings? Yes, I did. I don't understand your hostility when all I & these young people want to do is spread the gospel. I'm sorry you have a problem with the method, but I'm certain God does not!
---Crystal on 8/16/06

Crystal, don't be naive, I said to check to see how much they would charge to come to your church. People who serve the Lord do not demand an outrageous amount to sing. The ones I know sing for a love offering. Our group never sing for $$$. We sing for love offerings. I admire men and women of God who depend on the Lord for what they receive.
---shira on 8/15/06


Many people who serve the Lord make money doing so. "Is the diligent workman unworthy of his pay?" (paraphrase) Apostle Paul asked in one of his letters. None of us expect our pastors to do full-time ministry for free! And, just to let you know, many speakers and bands will "perform" at churches for a love offering. Billy Graham still doesn't have a set price for his engagements. Are you going to try to convince us that he is not used of God now?
---Crystal on 8/15/06

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If you really want to know what any music group is all about, ask them how much they would "charge" to come to your church. You will find out quick if they are serving the Lord or making money.
---shira on 8/13/06

I am SO glad that there are older people who can see that times change (Crystal / Donna). No, God never changes, BUT you can believe He applauds the efforts of those who follow Him to reach out to people with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The band "Jars of Clay" is a group of guys who love the Lord. It is evident in everything they do. They've brought many, many young people to Christ and THAT is what matters most. More than I have, that's for sure!
---Chelsea on 8/13/06

i can't help but think that Donnas point has just supported the earlier example Crystal gave of the drowning guy/gal. can i remind you? if someone is drowning, throw them anything that FLOATS! does it matter how we reach these kids as long as their hearts are captured for Christ? i don't think God will say, "I don't like how this person was saved, so it doesn't count?" i don't think so...
---jaz on 8/13/06

I agree with both of you (Donna & Shira). Churches today CAN become focused on entertainment rather than Jesus. THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN!!! He needs to be the focus! His death, burial and resurrection needs to be the message. I am not FOR any Christian Rock Music that forgets that. Jars of Clay? They do it right!!! Just look up any of their sheet music and check out the words.
---Crystal on 8/13/06

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Shira--Maybe you ARE older than I (I'm 65) :-) You are right about entertainment...that's ALL some churches seem to offer! It's tragic. Bless the small churches that have nothing but the Gospel and lifting up Jesus to draw people in. Today's youth face a secular society that stresses "tolerance" above all, shuns Christian mores..teaches "many paths" to "God". Get them saved, but if they aren't taught and able to stand firm, what will happen to Christianity in this country?
---Donna2277 on 8/11/06

I can tell I am older than Donna or Crystal. I have been in this thing many years and have seen church evolve into what it has become and it troubles my spirit. Churches have become the place of intertainment.(that is, if they want a crowd.)
---shira on 8/11/06

Part 2

The band spent countless hours searching through hymnals for lyrical texts that would speak to believers about the hope found in Christ.

The bands intent, they say, is to combine the rich lyrics of traditional hymns from the past with melodies that appeal to 21st century listeners. In an age where many churches have traded in their hymnals for overhead projection screens, this is an admirable goal.
---Chelsea on 8/11/06

Part 1 of an article writtne by a reporter for CBN. I think it sums up Jars of Clay quite nicely...

The CD, Redemption Songs, is a rare gem among the myriad of worship albums that are available today. It is a collection of soulful recordings of ancient hymns and spirituals, many of which have been recreated with modern music. Listeners will find traditional favorites such as Nothing But the Blood and It is Well with My Soul, along with songs they may have never heard before.
---Chelsea on 8/11/06

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It is so refreshing to hear a voice of reason! Like me, (bu the way, I am 43 years old) you don't like rock, BUT you aren't saying God can't use it. By no means do I like all the songs by Jars of Clay, however, if you would listen to the words, you would see that they are "preaching Christ and Him crucified." Believe me it is reaching our youth like us old fuddie-duddies can't!!
---Crystal on 8/11/06

The problem with Rock be it Christians or something else, is that all too often it is so very very loud that you cannot hear the words anyhow. In any case, listening to rock will eventually harm ones hearing as one gets older. I sometimes wonder if the hearing aid companies promote Rock music.
---lee on 8/11/06

I can tell I'm a lot older than Crystal and many others here. Excuse me because I don't like "rock", Christian or otherwise. It makes me tense and irritable. I can't understand the words and it's way too loud.

That said, I believe God created music and can use all kinds. If kids are getting the true Gospel: that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life (not one of many "paths"), great! I hope someone is available to guide them AFTER they make a decision for Christ.
---Donna2277 on 8/11/06

This blog is most amusing. I am really getting some good laughs.
---shira on 8/10/06

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Is there anyone out there who will take a stand against ungodly things in church?
---shira on 8/10/06

That perspective is of a particular nature. It provokes thought. Interesting commentary.

OH! What a flogging for taking a stance against ungodly things of this world. If it looks like the world, sounds like the world, smells like the world.....guess what?
---shira on 8/10/06

Agreed Chelsea, the bigotry is deafening. Some people act like they are still under the Law, as if they did not have any freedom in Christ and would suffer others to be as miserable as they are. Jaz, rock on and share Christ's love in all the ways that you can. Ignore the Pharisees and clanging symbols of our day; they are of little profit in bringing others to Christ.
---Benny on 8/10/06

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Don't be discouraged by narrow-minded, "we gotta do it this way" people! "Even if something is not working anymore, this is the way we've always done it." How sad is that? Jesus was very unconventional in His time. He went against the grain at every turn. Don't forget the woman at the well. Even His disciples were scandalized that He would stoop to speaking to her. This is the same type of bigotry.
---Chelsea on 8/10/06

this does not surprise me one bit. i bet if i showed up in this community with my band, we would be railroaded out but QUICK! the persecution of Christians is nothing new. it is a story as old as the bible {or older}. anyway, we are preaching the gospel and God is on our side, just as He is on the side of Jars of Clay. it is His will that we spread the message and this is a tried and true, perfectly acceptable way to get through to young people. IT WORKS TOO!!!!
---jaz on 8/10/06

Who planted that idea in the kid's heads? The parents, and I would bet my next paycheck on that. The teenagers bought the CDs in the first place, probably because they heard the music at one of their youth events AND loved it!!!!!!!! Then, a parent or parents got wind of it and said, "... no son or daughter of mine is listening to the 'junk'!" I can see it now. And the rest is history...
---Charles on 8/10/06

Ok, let me see if I understand this thing...

1) Teens had Jars of Clay CDs.
2) Teens decide (alone) this is junk music.
3) Teens decide (alone) it is time to burn the music THEY purchased in the first place.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT! Someone, somewhere convinced them that this group was producing "junk," and encouraged them to burn the CDs. They didn't get together one day and do this on their own. NO WAY!
---Crystal on 8/10/06

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jaz, charles, crystal and madison: It doesn't take much to get this thing going does it? There are plenty of churches with junk music. You can listen to that stuff if you please and one more thing, the kids weren't "made" to burn anything. No, they have never burned their bibles. Praise God.
---shira on 8/9/06

i don't believe that! Jars of Clay is an awesome group with an awesome message. i can assure you that they have sold many, many more CDs than will ever be burned. also, just to let you know, there are hundreds of well-respected churches who invite this group to perform in their sanctuaries and i don't think this would happen if they were singing 'junk.'
---jaz on 8/9/06


I bet the teens you know were FORCED by their narrow-minded parents to burn their Jars of Clay CDs IF this happened at all. I've not met a Christian teen who doesn't have these CDs in their collection.
---Charles on 8/9/06

What! If this old lady can sing along, I think the words are pretty understandable. Junk music? I'm not sure the Lord would appreciate the evaluation since it is obviously Holy Spirit inspired. Remeber, Shira, the Word of God says CLEARLY that NO ONE can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit. This is the central message of every single song I've ever heard by Jars of Clay. God IS using them to draw young people to Himself.
---Crystal on 8/9/06

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Shira: God does use Christian rock groups to share the Good News of Christ. Christian rock is one of many types of music that God does use.

I have also heard of Bibles being burned in book burnings. So what if kids have burned "Jars of Clay" music?
---Madison1101 on 8/8/06

Teens I know burned their "jars of clay" junk music. Can't understand the words anyway.
---shira on 8/8/06

Love ya, Shira! And I also like some of the songs by Jars of Clay. My teen duaghters have a couple of their CD's.
---Crystal on 8/8/06

oh and charles, jars of clay? awaesome group! love their music. our is similar and i can only hope that some day we will reach the numbers that they have reached. i have all their CDs.
---jaz on 8/8/06

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our group is called 'countdown,' and we really have a good message. right now we only perform at local churches in my home state, but i believe God will allow us to grow and spread the gospel to more and more young people. as you can imagine, that is our audience. my heart is overcome with joy when i see hardened teens come to Christ. there is no greater calling. no CDs right now. sorry, maybe some day.
---jaz on 8/8/06

Crystal, I haven't gone anywhere. I am just sitting back amused at yours and jaz' comments. I am intertaining myself.
---shira on 8/8/06

Whats the name of your band, Jaz? Do you have any CDs? Where do you perform?
---Chelsea on 8/8/06

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