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Was Cain The Devil

Being that the Bible was written in symbolism, could it be true that Cain was the first born son of Heylel (the real name of the devil)? There are many verses that support this theory.

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 ---jacques on 8/8/06
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IV. "For it is God who worketh in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure." God Kathr not you but God. The almighty God of Scripture.
---karen on 5/7/08

Rebecca D, you were right, I'll admit I was wrong. Thats why my sprirt told me not to talk about it. This is what happened. I was researching demons, which led me to Barbara Bush, which led me to Sherry Shriner, which led me to the Serpent Theory. God sent me to you for clarification,so for that I thank you.
---Jacques on 8/29/06

Ryan, I can see by your post you don't know the answer to my question either.
So let me ask you a little simpler question.
If the Bible is Spiritually discerned where does a metaphor come into place?
My original question, "How do you determine a metaphor v/s truth?"
---Elder on 8/24/06

Jacques; it wasn't wrong for Adam and Eve to have sex because they were married in God's eyes. And God told us that when a man and a woman gets married it isn't shameful for them to be naked in front of eachother. 2 weeks ago the spirit told you not to talk about didn't listen. You wouldn't talk anymore because you have proof to back up your answers. All you have is theory not the truth.
---Rebecca_D on 8/23/06

God told Adam do not eat fruit from the tree of the knowelge of good and evil, for in the day that you do you will die. The serpent lied about what God said and deceived Eve. Genesis 2:16-17, 3:1-7 God knew Adam and Eve ate of the tree. 3:11-12 Here is a cross reference to 2Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
---Creamcup on 8/23/06

**Anyway, about 2 weeks ago my spirit told me not to talk about the serpent seed theory.**
My spirit told me it was because you got pushed into a corner with unbiblical ideas.
You STILL never said where in the Bible the real name of the devil is Heylel.
---Jack on 8/23/06

Jacques ... You live in the world of lurid bnewspaper reports.
I live in the real world of families in the suburbs of an English city.
You find evil because you seek it. Why do you seek it? Does it disgust you? Does it fascinate you?
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/23/06

Alan, your 8/22/ answer was great, "why lift up the stone to see the slime underneath?" I believe there is a few that speak negative about everything, life, sex, the Bible, losing salvation, instead of enjoying what God has given us. We are so blessed and not lucky, because we don't believe in luck, but in Christ. That should make us joyful. "Heylel," Jac. where did you get a name like that? What denomination are you? First I heard of that name.
---Lupe2618 on 8/23/06

Alan8869,you live in a fantasy world. Here in the US, kids start having sex at twelve. And the majority of guys in the strip club are married. Plus,you can literally window shop for prostitues in Amsterdam. Anyway, about 2 weeks ago my spirit told me not to talk about the serpent seed theory. So there it is. God bless and goodnight.
---Jacques on 8/23/06

The bible is Spiritually discerened. Not discerned by what is a metaphor and what is not.
---Ryan on 8/23/06

MikeM you have given more examples of what YOU think is metaphorical but you have not answered the question.
The question is/was how do you determine a metaphor v/s truth?
What does the US Army mean when they say, "An Army of One?" Can everyone else come home? Are they speaking a metaphor or do they mean what they say? (Hint: they mean it.) Because you don't understand it doesn't make it a metaphor.
---Elder on 8/22/06

Jacques, "sex is beautiful, but take a look around you and see what man made of it"
Well, I look round and see many situations where nan had mmade a pigs ear out of life as a result of sex,
But I see the majority of people, Christian and non-Christian, have kept it beautiful and unsullied.
Why always lift up the stone to see the slime underneath?
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/22/06

Creamcup, what is the purpose of your pride comment. If you scroll down you will see how I already explained pride is the #1 enemy of God. Rebecca D, if you cannot see the connection between Kenites and the flood, you never will. The Holy Spirit will only teach you what you can handle. Now Elder, if they knew they were naked after they ate the fruit, it had to be wrong for them to have sex. It's not hard to figure out. Yes Elder sex is beautiful, but take a look around you and see what man made of it.
---Jacques on 8/22/06

John T, I never ran I am still here. I only post from work. Secondly, the reason why I mentioned 6 black people is to show you this is an old knowledge passed on from generations of Black people. And someone said earlier, only a Black person can produce all the races. The word Heylel is a moot point. I did not post here to make enemies or to stir anger. If I offended anyone I apologize. Everyone did a good job supporting their theories. Maybe the Devil didn't do it. But it does appear sex was the crime.
---Jacques on 8/22/06

I'm still waiting for Jacques to give Book, Chapter, and Verse FROM THE BIBLE that say that "Heylel" is the real name of the Devil.
---Jack on 8/20/06

in genisis there is some symbology and there is some that is not isnt there?"and his seed had hatred against her seed"adam was not the only doner,since there are two doners listed the reply hints it states to be biblical .the information biblically is not sufficient to give conclusion to this question so the liberty to find revelation is mine.adam is not the father of cain ,is he?is not cain's father cano,a nodite from a local tribe?
---earl on 8/20/06

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Creamcup-I was quoting from the Hebrew, the 'J' writer.
---MikeM on 8/20/06

Mike M., Augestine's 400 AD words about Adam & Eve were not in the Bible. What is written in scripture is inspired by the HS. 2Timothy 3:16, 2Peter 1:20,21
---Creamcup on 8/20/06

Mike M., KJV Gen. 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. This verse doesn't say "your belly shall rise to your husband".
---Creamcup on 8/20/06

For that, I sympathise, Mike.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/19/06

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Eve was taken out of Adam's side. She wasn't made of the earth. Just as The Church/His Body, is united with Christ as a new creation. The Cross ended our life in the dirt. Well those who are His that is. Remember Types. Adam and Eve are a Type of Christ and the Church. Read Ephesians ch 5.
Cain and Abel are types of salvation. One of works, self effort, and one that comes only through Jesus Christ, then is united to Him, as a New Creation. The Cain's will never rise above the earth.
---kathr4453 on 8/19/06

In Genesis, It says that Cain was the first born MAN child. It clearly says MAN. Then Abel was born.
There is Symbolism,Typology, Allegories, Parables, Shadows etc. ALL point to Jesus Christ or prophecy. To use it any other way is dangerous. All truths come in at least 2 or three. If you can't find any scripture to back up a scripture, leave it alone. Scripture teaches scripture. What then are these verses that support your theory. Are you taking them out of context? Just a thought.
---kathr4453 on 8/19/06

Alan; I think the wife does..
---MikeM on 8/19/06

Admit i was wrong? I thought I proved the sexual aspect.-using scripture.
---MikeM on 8/19/06

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Good, Mike!

It is refreshing to see that you do admit when you are wrong. (No sarcasm or gloating meant in the above.)
---John_T on 8/19/06

I get the impression here that many Christians are just as obsessed with sex as is the rest of the world. If sex was a sin God would have said that. However, He told Adam and Eve not to eat a particular fruit and when they did they became aware that they were naked and God punished them for what they had done. People like to use the words 'forbidden fruit' as a different way of saying sex but the bible does not use it that way.
---emg on 8/19/06

MikeM ... Augustine might have thought that, but what justification is there in the Bible for His belief?
Mike are you married? Do you regard it as sin every time you make love to your wife?
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/19/06

2) I think this may have been brought up here already but look at Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by ONE MAN sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL men, for that ALL have sinned.

I hope this helps.
---Tbabe on 8/19/06

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You present an interesting case here; but I must agree with Elder.
I checked out Rev. Richard Gan's site; and I noticed that he de-emphasizes the fact that Adam ate the same fruit of the same tree as Eve (Gen. 3:6&7); It also appears that Adam was there with Eve the whole time....It's something to think about.
I'd look at some other sites that promote this doctrine and some that dispute it as well so that you might realize how dangerous this doctrine really is.
---Tbabe on 8/19/06

Further example of it being Metaphorical; Man, Adam is a collective noun; one example is the plural in Gen:1:26,('E' writer) "Let 'them' be masters of the fish of the sea etc..,,
---MikeM on 8/19/06

(Both from Hebrew Bible, from the 'J')
-2:21 to 2:25, The 'rib; is clearly metaphorical, in Hebrew tradition it a reference to bodily sexual positioning.
-2:24 The one body one flesh further backs this up, and is repeated again and again in scripture, up to the NT, Paul.
-3:16Curse on Eve '..You shall give birth to your children in pain, Your belly shall rise to your husband, yet he will lord it over you.'
---MikeM on 8/19/06

This is all new to me. I thought most Christians, protestants and Catholic knew/thought sex was the 'origonal sin.' I clearly thought wrong. I do remember reading Augestine, from 400AD who said, "Adam and Eve" had sex like man uses the lavatory, without though, only function"
---MikeM on 8/18/06

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Mike sex could not have been the sin because there was no knowledge of sin until the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was eaten. God had created Adam and Eve to procreate/bring forth their own kind. The physical activity that they would be involved in with each other as Husband and wife was not sin.
How do you determine a metaphor v/s truth?
---Elder on 8/18/06

Mike: "Of course sex was the sin."

---John_T on 8/18/06

Mike M., Eve and Adam disobeyed God by eating fruit from the tree of knowedge of good and evil, that is what happened. You should be careful to not add to ascripture meaning that is not even remotely there. Genesis 3:1-24
---Creamcup on 8/18/06

The whole Adam and the fall story is multi level in its meaning. Of course sex was the sin. The tree of knowledge was metaphor, I cannot think of any story in the Bible more symbolic than the Garden story, a metaphor for the human condition.

(John T, are Jacques & Eloy the only ones who run away when challenged?)
---MikeM on 8/18/06

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what were the Neanderthals?
---MikeM on 8/18/06

2. Their skin tone, hair colour, height, eye shape, foot size et cetera could have varied tremendously. They married their own siblings (because there were no other people then) and more variations would appear in each generation. God would ensure that all these variations were complete within the 8 people he saved in the ark so that the same variations could continue and multiply after they left the ark.
---emg on 8/18/06

Creamcup, the different 'races' started with God when He made Adam. Within Adam God must have placed the gene pool necessary to produce ALL variations of people that now populate this earth. With the exception of her gender Eve was identical to Adam genetically because she was made from a part of him. All their children (and we have no idea how many there were) might have looked completely different from each other.
---emg on 8/18/06

I believe the races started with Noah's three sons. Genesis 9:18-27 verse 18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
---Creamcup on 8/17/06

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Jacques even if 60 men in white robes tell you something it doesn't supersede what God says.
To not understand why Adam and Eve were married explains that you do not know OT custom. It is shown in them.
The Bible plainly tells us that the sin was disobedience not sex. Read Rom 5:12, one mans sin and v19 one mans disobedience. You do not see anything about sex here do you?
The sin was disobedience. That is it.
The disobedience was in eating from the tree that he was instructed not to.
---Elder on 8/17/06

Pride is the sin of Satan. He does not care about saving anyone, he tempts people and tries to get them to not believe God's word.
1Timothy 3: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
---Creamcup on 8/17/06

No, No and a thousand times No! Cain was the brother of Abel. Offsprings of Adam and Eve, created after the image of God.
That is very very clear. Why do you feel you need to prove a theory otherwise. To support a false religion, and you need our help to help you do that????
---kathr4453 on 8/17/06

Jacques where does scripture say "He wanted to be the one to save us from sin"?
Isaiah 14:12-14 How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thin heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congreagation, in the sides the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High.
---Creamcup on 8/17/06

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Jacques, just like Eloy, you run away when someone challenges you on some of the absurd things you wrote.

Name is different, but the pattern is the same.
---John_T on 8/17/06

CONT; the Kenites were people from Canaan Gen 15:18-19. They also accompained the Hebrews durning the wanderings Nu 24:21-22. There were 8 people saved by water. You go from there, to figure out how they replinished the earth. Cain's descendents are enumerated to the 6th generation, they gradually degenerated in their moral and spiritual condition til they became wholly corrupt before God. So what is your point in the Pharisess and the Kenites?
---Rebecca_D on 8/17/06

Jacques; My bible says in Is 14:12 that God calls him Lucifer. God was referring Lucifer as the son of the morning because he is the prince of this world. The forbidden fruit was not sex. Eve didn't have sex with Satan, she ate some type of a fruit off of the tree of good and knowlege. Before that, she didn't know what sin was. Until she ate off of the tree, then her eyes as well as Adam's were open. The Kenites, were decendents of Jethro, father-n-law of Moses. CONT;
---Rebecca_D on 8/17/06

Matthew 23 talks about the Kenites. Remember Pharisees were SCRIBES. He is saying they sit in the Moses' seat because they are lawgivers. If you study Matthew you will see these Pharisees(Kenites) are still around today. They tell you to give large sums of money to the church for God's love. Shameful. Matthew 23:33, "generations" of vipers, the root word 'gennema" meaning OFFSPRING. Was Christ being mean or was he stating fact. There are many more examples, but I don't have enough space.
---Jacques on 8/17/06

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Rebecca D, since you claim to be so smart. If everyone was destroyed in the flood, how did we get back all races? Do you know anything about Kenites? Offspring of Cain. They were hired by Judah as scribes. Read Jeremiah 35:7 and you will see they are wanderers. Still under the curse of Cain. I Samuel 15:6 shows they were spared. Didn't God say no one should kill them. All Pharisees are scribes and we know their role. Yahshua himself said they were Kenites. I will continue in my next post.
---Jacques on 8/17/06

I didn't mean to say they were not married, I meant to say 'it was not their time yet'. Sorry!
---Jacques on 8/17/06

Yesterday I spoke to 6 different people, 2 black, 2 Jamaican, and 2 Haitian. These people are all men of God and they verified the fall of man came from lust and sex. They all stated the 'forbidden fruit' was sex. Elder states "it's ok when your married", but how do you know they were married when it happened. It's silly for anyone to say that mankind does not have a problem with lust. Look around you. It controls the world. The average age a person starts to have sex is 13. That's shameful.
---Jacques on 8/17/06

Rebecca D, Satan always looked up to Yahshua(Jesus). He wanted to be the one to save us from sin. Yahweh did not let him,because everything he touched he ruined. Isaiah 14:12 says he is the 'son of the morning', so I aplogize. In Isaiah 14:13-14 God himself calls him Heylel, because he boasted.
---Jacques on 8/17/06

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Jacques God created sex between a husband and wife for their pleasure and relationship.
There is nothing dirty or sinful about it when kept in the bounds of Scripture.
The sin of Adam and Eve was that they disobeyed the command of God. They partook of the tree that they shouldn't have. It created in them a knowledge and desire for evil.
---Elder on 8/17/06

Jacques; How can satan be the morning star as you say, when Jesus said that he was the morning star in Rev 22:16 and 2 Pet 1:19? Christ promises to give the morning star to the faithful ones, he promised to give to them himself, that he will impart with them his own glory and share in his own royal dominion, for the star is the symbol of royalty, Mt 2:2. You are turning everything backwards. You are watching way too much of the history channel, when you need to start reading more of the bible.
---Rebecca_D on 8/16/06

Words of Jesus, prophesies about Jesus and visions have spiritual meaning. When Jesus said, you are of your father the devil, he was talking about spiritual father. John 8:44 They were not spiritually reborn. John 3:3-7
Satan was an angel Lucifer, who fell because he had pride and rebelled against God. Angels are spirits. Psalm 104:4 Hebrews 1:7,13,14, 13:2 They can take on the form of a man, but they can not have sex and procreate. Matthew 22:29,30 Satan was in the serpent in the garden of Eden.
---Creamcup on 8/16/06


Jack asked you several times, :"I've asked you several times for BCV where it says that Heylel is the real name of the devil, and you have not done so.

Why might that be? Please tell your source
---John_T on 8/16/06

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For the record, I am not sold on the Cain theory. But lets take a look at how it applies to everyday life. Take the movie "The 40 Year Old Virgin" for example. When an adult is still a virgin, many will say their eyes have not been opened. Animals only have sex to create , but mankind today are "LOVERS OF PLEASURE" Are we sure this wasn't the original fall of man. Because sex today has become completely out of control.
---Jacques on 8/16/06

Mike M, What what so special about Cain, that the all the cult secrets would be revieled to him. Jack, please google search Heylel. It means the morning star. It was his name before he fell. Now Creamcup said, Satan took up the form of the serpent. Now obviously, the serpent had to be able to talk. As much as demons love sex, can you honestly say that he would not be tempted by Eve's beauty. Also could everyone please google "the doctrine of the serpent seed" by Rev. Richard Gan. Thanx.
---Jacques on 8/16/06

kathr4453 you have not been here long enough to understand my position on the "Wafer god."
I am glad you are here now.
My position is exactly the same as yours.
What I was saying to Jacques was that Jesus never commanded anyone to eat His physical flesh and/or drink His physical blood. That would be a pagan worship act.
---Elder on 8/16/06

Karen. I have done nothing but Exult Christ, the Cross, and God's love towards us, in giving us a cross, to find a New Life "In Him". My stand is pointing to that cross, and saying Please oh please Cross Over to the other side. Don't just stand there looking at it. You, dear heart, have not read ALL of my posts. If you had, you would know, I have never portrayed Christianity as you accuse me of.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/06

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MikeM. Many want to take that Cain and Abel heart condition as though God himself put those two hearts within. This teaching comes from Calvinism's Elect.
*Remember, God gave Cain a second chance.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/06

Elder. Please read John chapter 6. To eat His flesh and drink His blood, is to walk in the crucified life with him. As you see, those who reject the cross, as did Judas, found the cross offensive. They would rather wait for a King then the redeemer. Is there symbolism here. Absolutely. He is our daily manna, our very life flows from His. You have to read the whole chapter to understand what he is saying. It's a life, not a wafer!!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/16/06

Karen. How can you be so sure of your accusations. Do you know God's calling on my life. You fall into the area of presumption!!! You make accusations with out any examples.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/06

"I cause wise people to give bad advice, thus proving them to be fools." Is. 44:25
"I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God's curse fall upon that person." Gal. 1:9
Let these false prophets tell their dreams, but let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. There is a difference between chaff and wheat!" Jer. 23:28
---Loree on 8/15/06

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This part of scripture has no symbolism. Satan took on the form of a serpent. He deceived, lied, and tempted Eve into wanting the friut, by twisting what God had told them. There is no scripture that says Eve had sex with the serpent. It is absurd to even think that, and give that impression to readers who could get confused. There is no reason to read into scripture something that is not there. Eve and Adam disobeyed God by eating fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3:1-24, 4:1-2
---Creamcup on 8/15/06

Jacques I will try to answer some of your questions that you claim no is answering.
Now these are answers not debates. If you want to debate me call me on the other line.
So here goes.
Cond #2
---Elder on 8/15/06

Cond #2
1. God did not Curse Eve's sexual organs. He said she would have pain in child bearing. There is nothing dirty in a physical relationship between a husband and wife.
2. God never gave Eve that name, Adam did.
3. Adams organs are answered in the above.
4. Jesus never said to eat His flesh and drink His Blood. Now that would be pagan. If He did say that how would you be able to do that today? You wouldn't
---Elder on 8/15/06

Jacques, I guess you are NOT Eloy. The word "sorry" was not part of his vocabulary.

I took off on the word "symbolism" because it seemed that you were leaning towards Gnosticism, or some other "code book".

I am dealing with some cult members here, and I wanted to be sure before I went further. Thank you for the quick clarification to my question.
---John_T on 8/15/06

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**#2 nobodys answering any of my questions.**

And you're not answering any of ours, Jacques.

I've asked you several times for BCV where it says that Heylel is the real name of the devil, and you have not done so.
---Jack on 8/15/06

Cains sacriface was rejected do to his heart, while Abels sacrifice was accepted do to his heart. There is metaphor in the story, about the human condition, all empodied in the persons we know as Cain and Abel. Even from the beginning was a foreshowing of the need for redemption.
---MikeM on 8/15/06

Cain was the spokesman of Satan, in the same way Aaron spoke for uncharming speach impared Moses, Cain was the human spokesman for Satan. To cain was revealed the occult mysteries. These occult secrets have been passed down from generation to generation, empowering, for a time evil regimes, individuals.
---MikeM on 8/15/06

Eve's desire is to be only to her husband and no one else. She was cursed because she sinned against God and from thereon, she would know labor pains, pms, etc. Gen 4:1 Adam knew his wife and she bare Cain. I don't know how this bible can get any planner than it already is. What is it that you just don't understand?
---Rebecca_D on 8/15/06

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Jacques. You have many questions, and I really think you would like some sound answers. I don't believe Eve's sex organs were cursed. Because Adam & Eve sinned, sin entered into the world, and all the human race through Adam & Eve inherited that fallen nature. Jesus Christ came,the promised redeemer, to remove the curse of death that fell on all of us. We "in Him" are a New Creation. Only In Christ, and with His Shed Blood that has cleansed us from that sin curse. I don't know if that helped.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/06

Jacques. Yes you are right. The first promise of a redeemer is Genesis 3:15. All through the OT, even with the law, all was to remind us that the redeemer was coming. Not without Blood. I love the book of Hebrews. Nothing can explain it better. Jesus Christ is the Perfect, one and only once and for all sacrifice. He used types and figures all through OT. Read Heb 10. And Yes, with A & E it was the covering, also represented shed blood.
---kathr4453 on 8/15/06

I understand grace very well, and it has nothing to do with what men can do but "ALL" of God, if I add anything to that, it will no longer be grace. Service is what we do after we fall in love with Christ. We will do it because we want to do it not because He forces us to do it. He will teach us and correct us, and it looks as if He hasn't corrected you yet because you need it.
---karen on 8/15/06

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