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What Have You Learned

What have you learned from these blogs?

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 ---Curious on 8/15/06
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I have learned, the similarity comparison, Judas one of the twelve, & the trinity.
1.Judas 2.Money 3.Suicide 4.Lost for eternity.
Judas knew of Jesus, he really didn't know know Jesus. The Commandments Doctrines of men 3 persons godhead religion believers in Rev.17 vs 4 5 6 Pushing Pressing to John 10 v 1, persons know of Jesus, they really don't Know Know Jesus.
Money wasted. Giving money to hear trinity Lies, some paying to have their ears tickled.
Suicide no repentance. Spiritual suicide, since day 1 trinity came into existence. Isa.5 v 14, Mat.7 v 13.
Lost for eternity, Mat.7 v 23.
Peoples hearts are hardened to The Acts 2 v 38 Church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against The Acts Church of The Living God.
---Lawrence on 6/1/15

That many here really have there doctrine mess up. So many believe things contrary to the bible.
---Rev_Herb on 11/8/07

That "Non-Traditional false doctrine" and "ungodly lifestyles" is abundant in the Christian World, and God's People must take a "strong stance against it", never compromising God's Truth, while lifting up holy hands(1 Timothy 2:8).
---Mrs._Morgan on 10/9/06

1. I learned through this blog is primarily conservative protestant, most are not far-right. They range from liberal to right, some are non-political. 2. Most think in terms of mirco issues, not macro isues. 3. more women here than men. 3. most seeem to be mostly fundamentalist, yet those from other religions post. 4. Evolution/science is opposed powerfully on an emotive level. 5.Most have Strong family values 6. Dogmatics are not the centerpiece of most people faith. Thats some of what I learned.
---MikeM on 8/18/06

I have learned that I do not know as much as I once thought I did. I have also learned the importance of approaching these topics in love and humility.
---Tbabe on 8/18/06

"People may fall many times, but they only become failures only when they begin to blame someone else." Adam complained; there wasn't disclosure and fair warning that woman would dysfunction. Now you made her, and she got me in all this trouble, so whose fault is it? Not mine. The woman you made did it.
Taking responsibility for your life is healing 101.
Sin came into the world through one man not one woman. Ro 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,.."
---jhonny on 8/18/06

Eph 1:14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
An earnest: - "money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid"
Redemption: - "a releasing effected by payment of ransom"
Inheritance: - An heir who receives what is allotted or by lot property and possessions by right of sonship.
The lot was together and shaken.
---jhonny on 8/18/06

I learned some people come here and think they are so smart but ignore the simple truth of the Word. Mr Mike perhaps you could find a place to write where heretical ideas will not offend as you insist on doing and it is personal when you debate what should not be questioned. I had ad hominum for breakfast.
---One_time_post on 8/18/06

2. The only unpleasent thing I have learned here is some ABSOLUTLY CANNOT stick with the issue in a debate situation, and have to resort to name calling, or bailing.(AD HOMINEM) My maxim is "If ones faith cannot stand the test of free inquiry, its finished." -Thomas Jeferson. Perhaps feelings for some is more important than truth, but I cannot agree to compromise the facts/truth by saying the sky is green so as to not hurt feelings.
---MikeM on 8/18/06

I live on the top of a hill. Some time ago, I was in an aircraft flying around my home town. I was suprised to see that from up high, there is no sense of perspective. I could not tell that my house was on a hill. Everything seemed to be at the same level.

We are like that to God. There are no degrees of being saved. Either you are or you are not. There is an old song that called "The Ground Is Level At the Foot Of the Cross."
---Bruce5656 on 8/18/06

1. I have learned HERE there is no uniform form of protestantism. The largest division is not between religions, but within religions. Is this good? In America this is good. I don't want to see a united monolithic form of religion, any religion. That would be a prescription for intolerance. i would like to see GOOD VALUES taught more than docternal unity taught. That may sound heretical to some in the small picture, but pluralism is is a hedge against fanaticism, in the big picture.
---MikeM on 8/18/06

Sue--Some writers here are seminary grads, Some are very confused. So don't worry about not understanding them. What's important is what you believe in your heart, not how much you "know" or even how "good" you are! Jesus suffered what we ALL DESERVE to suffer because of our sins. And since Jesus was perfect, His payment for us was accepted by God. None of us DESERVE heaven, but we're going there.. because of Jesus..Because we trust HIM. That's what being "saved" means.
---Donna2277 on 8/18/06

Donna ... You asked Sue what is she saved from. Perhaps she should also cosider what she is saved for?
Sue ... don't be put off by the fact that others seem more holy, or have more knowledge, or can quote lots of scriptures. That all means nothing.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/18/06

I have learned. Pr 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;
A fruit of the hate business is disemblence; to disguise oneself - to feign. They look like they care, they don't, just the form. Pr 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.
---jhonny on 8/18/06

I have seen so many different personalities on this blog, the range is out of this world. Some are so Super Aggressive and resort to name calling, and some just debate you, etc. People have different beliefs, and have been taught differently. I been on this blog for about 4 weeks I think and it has been a real eye opener! --Mrs. Morgan.
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/17/06

sue, why are you measuring yourself to other people? They are no holier than you. Some may be more mature but by no means do they surpass you in holiness. We mature by feasting on the word. Nourishing our spirit and maturing us to have fruit and BE Salt & Light. Pray to seek His path. Do not be overwhelmed to study His word. The Spirit is the author of the Bible. If He resides in your heart He will translate his lessons into your new heart. Asking is not enough we must seek. And let's not forget knock.
---Ryan on 8/17/06

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johnny,thank you for the definition of opinion,thank God for spiritual truth cause many times opinions are riddled with errors.And God won,t be mocked for the wind blows a 2 minded man to and fro,no one of two minds will receive any reward from God.Truth is truth as I have said before THERE ARE NO GRAYS AREAS IN GOD S WORD and God is no respector of men truth is truth no matter what anyones opinion is.
---tom2 on 8/17/06

Well, I shouldn't have said I was 'saved' what I mean is that I do beleive that Jesus died for our sins, but I know so little compared to some people. I barely can understand what is written in this blog! I WANT to be better, and I pray about my sin, it just seems hopeless. Maybe I should pray more.
---sue on 8/17/06

Bruce5656: Thanks. Since I don't have the gift, I could only go by what scripture is saying. Thanks for the clarification with your input.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/06

What have I learned? The Christian responsibility is to confront. Matt18:15, "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone:" This seems to be a part of Christianity that has been lost. 16, But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
---jhonny on 8/17/06

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RE the need of tongues because of the diversity of languages. The timing of the comming of Jesus and the spread of the gospel co-incides with the dominance of the Roman Empire and their unifying institutions including government, language currency, weights and measures etc.
Latin was the common language but koine Greek was widespread. Consequently, there would not be so great a need of translations as you might think.
---Bruce5656 on 8/17/06

I do not see how that would fit the passage "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men" Also see ch. 13 "the tongues of men and of angels"
---Bruce5656 on 8/17/06

Your part two had not posted when I wrote that. I see by it we are in agreement re. the private use of tongues.

With respect to the public demonstration that took place on Pentecost. I think it is just as reasonable, from the context, to believe that it was a miracle of hearing rather than a miracle of speech. That is to say, they were speaking in an unknown language (as in I Cor 14: 2-4) but the hearers heard it in their own language.
---Bruce5656 on 8/17/06

Acts 2:8, "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" (That is not intended to be a dogmatic statement but an equally viable alternative.)

Having said that two instances come to mind in which someone spoke in tongues in the language of someone present French and English when the languages were unknown to the speaker.
---Bruce5656 on 8/17/06

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Tom2 "..the winds of opinion blow around here like a hurricane.." Would your prefer there were no opinions?
Job said this, Job 32:10 "Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion." The Hebrew word used means; "knowledge, opinion, judgment" Dict... "The prevailing view: public opinion." Religiously powerful feared opinion. Lu 22:2 "And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people."
---jhonny on 8/17/06

sue, your reason for going to heaven is JESUS. You aren't holy in yourself, but you are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus. Do you know what that means? It means because of Jesus shedding his Blood for, you are forgiven for your sins and God has made a way back to Himself through Jesus. You can have heaven if you want it. Do you want to go to heaven? Do you love Jesus? Are you in deliberate sin? Just repent, tell God you're sorry and come home with us. We love you sue (((huggs))))
---Donna9759 on 8/17/06

Sue-- Glad you are saved. But you confuse me a bit. From your viewpoint, what are you saved FROM?
---Donna2277 on 8/17/06

Heh Sue. A worse condition is oblivion to your condition. Re 3:17 "...and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" You are humbled. God dwells with the humble, oppressed and crushed. Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
---jhonny on 8/17/06

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Sue, the path being narrow has nothing to do with 'how many' will get to Heaven, it is to do with 'who' will. Heaven isn't a place for the best of the saved to get in first whilst the remainder of the saved fill up any 'spare' places. If you think there might not be enough room for you what do you think that you were saved from and for and where do you think you'll go? Bruce, couldn't 'unknown' here mean unknown to the individual using it rather than unknown to everyone?
---M.P. on 8/17/06

Bruce, I believe the 2nd one is a prayer language Paul was talking about. We weren't there when this was at it's fullest. I'm sure at the beginning if this time, because there wasn't a written NT, they had many manifestations we don't need today because of the completed written word. I think , when I read about the two magicians that were giving Moses a hard time, that we need to be careful such things. The only thing that cannot be imitated is the power of the Cross.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/06

If, as you suggest, tongues always had to be a known language spoken to an unbeliever, how do you explain 1 Corinthians 14:2-4, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
---Bruce5656 on 8/17/06

Helen Jhonny, Yes, I'm saved. I'm baptised and confirmed and I really believe that Jesus died for our sins. But the fact that the path to heaven is so narrow, and there are SO MANY people that are so much more holier (for lack of a better word) than me, what gives me reason to think I'm going to heaven? Nothing does.
---sue on 8/17/06

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The second reference Paul makes is that of a prayer language. Well, we know that prayer is a private thing, not to be paraded around for all the see our self-righteousness. (Do it in the Closet).

I won't say that either of these gifts don't exist. There are still many areas in the world who don't have Bibles, and the language code is hard to break. Or that the other isn't with some. I don't have this gift. I just know there is a difference between the two.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/06

Donna2277. That was so brilliant!! Thank You. I've learned this as well. Actually, it is good to go back and examine our words, and how we put them. Sometimes we blurt things out, well meaning, that come across rather brass. We ALL can learn from these conversations, not to chop off ears first, and then expect someome to hear what we're trying to say!! Thank you for your thoughts!!!
---kathr4453 on 8/17/06

Intersting scriptures Herb,thanks. 1Cor.13: 10, "when that which is perfect is come" You provided an alternate of choice, Jesus Christ or the Bible. The perfection is in context with "charity" vr. 6 agappe. There is a "part" allotted, that will be broght to an end, completed and finished. Mt. 16:17, "And these signs shall follow them that believe;..."
---jhonny on 8/17/06

There's two examples of tongues in the Bible that Paul is talking about.That which was spoken in other people's languages, so they could hear the Gospel. Before the New Testament was written, How do you suppose these other nations heard? Did Paul or others with this gift have a masters in every foreign language Gentiles used? You don't hear Peter or James ever talking about Tongues. Why? It's because they all knew Hebrew. Those scriptures have to be clearly discerned.
---kathr4453 on 8/17/06

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**Why didn't Paul just heal Timothy?**

Why do the extraordinary when there are ordinary means available, such as "wine that maketh glad the heart of man?" Psalm 104.
---Jack on 8/17/06

I have learned about the amazing variety of Christian beliefs...much more varied than I ever realized. These blogs send me into the Word again and again, asking WHAT do I believe and WHY? Why do THEY believe as they do? I was shocked at first at the adversarial (almost hostile) environment here. But I was shocked at the intensity of my own feelings too. However, even that has been good...I've had to examine my Christ-likeness (or unlikeness) much more than when everybody agrees with me.
---Donna2277 on 8/17/06

after being around for awhile I have REALLY come to appreciate this scripture soooooo much more.jesus the same yesterday,today and forever.I love people,and especially my christians brothers and sisters. But friends seems the winds of opinions blow around here like a hurricane.Thank God he never changes.and never will.
---tom2 on 8/16/06

1 Tim 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Why didn't Paul just heal Timothy? We can see here that the church was getting established and some of the gifts were disapearing. There are many more examples I could give, but not enough time or space.
---Rev_Herb on 8/16/06

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1 Cor. 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, ( referring to the bible, not Jesus Christ. The Gr. Has it in the neuter gender meaning a something, not a someone) then that which is in part shall be done away.
---Rev_Herb on 8/16/06

Heh Sue. The doctrine of hell has been used for out and out extortion and abuse. God's jsutice delights in mercy, moderation, and a just measure in deciding a case. Let go of condmenation. Christ is your righteousness, Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods elect? It is God that justifieth.
Not a false one from this world. Peace.
Ro 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lords.
---jhonny on 8/16/06

I have learned alot about people and their churches.
---Sally on 8/16/06

Elder,Acts 1:4 being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

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Elder - We are not trying to get Rev. Herb to partake of the Gift of Tongues, we are only trying to let him know it exists today. By denying the gift, he denies the 9th gift of the Holy Spirit. We feel sorry for him that he denies one of God's precious Gifts, we are not trying to make him partake of it at all.
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away
Revelation 22:19 - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

Just for the record. I've been speaking in tongues for 20 years. I have the gift of interpretation. I realize I cannot talk of these things without being stoned. My baptism in the Holy Spirit was the most glorious day of my life. I would like the opportunity to talk freely with you, but that's probably not a reality. Peace to all of you (Donna, I appreciate your kindness).
---Rachel on 8/16/06

Matthew 13:19 - When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

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Rev Herb- so tell me again the scripture reference where it says the gifts you listed as being temporary? and not for today, done away with?
Aren't you afraid that you have twisted the word of God to the degree to fit your finite thinking?
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

#2 - 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

Sue - The fact is that none deserves or is worthy to go to heaven. That is why God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for our sins then He rose from the dead. We do not get to go to heaven based on anything we have or have not done, but on what Jesus did on the Cross for us. Are you saved?
---Helen_5378 on 8/16/06

#1 of 2 Rev Herb - Can you quote the scripture reference for YOUR belief that some gifts have been done away with? Because 1 Corinth 12 says: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would NOT have you ignorant
vs 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit
---Donna9759 on 8/16/06

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I never cease to be amazed at how some things that are so very straight forward in the bible are so easily (willfully?) overlooked/ignored.
I don't think I will ever understand why some would rather take someone's word for it than study it out for themselves. (See Debbie's comments below for more on this.)
Acts 17:11 - remember, this was Paul's teaching they were scrutinizing.
---Bruce5656 on 8/16/06

That legalism is alive and well. Color within the lines and play well with others. If you mention the fruits or gifts of the Holy Spirit, you might have your head bitten off like it was a chocolate rabbit. I've learned to avoid posts where the veterans argue together. I have found my interest waning, but I am still visiting.
---Rachel on 8/16/06

That legalism is alive and well. Color within the lines and play well with others. If you mention the fruits or gifts of the Holy Spirit, you might have your head bitten off like it was a chocolate rabbit. I've learned to avoid posts where the veterans argue together. I have found my interest waning, but I am still visiting.
---Rachel on 8/16/06

Debbie, they are real, but not of God. If I take LSD and see God and he tells me I can fly and I jump off of a bridge and die was I wrong for jumping? I did have an experience. So does experience mean more that common sense, or the bible.
---Rev_Herb on 8/16/06

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I've learned how when things are written, people preceive them through their own minds and attitudes. They don't see the person or know the tone in which they are saying something. If we have decided we don't like someone because we have misunderstood one thing they have said, we hate everything they say. This we do need to pray about and ask the Lord to give us a heart of love to see beyond our own personal feelings. Many Many hated Jesus, Paul,Peter, prophets of old, and the list goes on.
---kathr4453 on 8/16/06

Jhonny, But I'm not trying to be funny. I am serious, I've learned that there will be a very narrow path to heaven and there are so many more people that deserve heaven than me. Because of an evil addiction and me being so weak, I sin everyday. I'm gonna go to hell when I die.
---sue on 8/16/06

Debbie do we see anyone in the Bible "Praying" for this/any gift?
God set those in the Church according to His purpose. Those that seek and pray for a "gift" may not be in accordance to God's purpose and may spend their entire service life trying to operate in a gift not according to God's purpose.
If we can't learn by hearing then we must learn by feeling the whip.
We hear of many who say God called me to Preach but not many who say God called me to drive a Truck.
---Elder on 8/16/06

Debbie explain to me please how someone (you) can say, "Allow God to reveal deeper Truths to you," when you are dealing with the lessor gifts?
If tongues are for today do all get tongues? Paul said in his day that not everyone did.
Cond #2
---Elder on 8/16/06

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Cond #2
So why does everyone who claims they experience this "gift" try to get everyone else to partake of it? Isn't that contrary to Scripture?
It appears that those with the "Lesser Gifts" try to make others feel lesser or inferior. Why is that? Is it the right thing to do?
When in the Bible was tongues first given and for what purpose?
So far you don't know my position on this issue so don't guess.
---Elder on 8/16/06

Herb, I never have been able to figure out how you think you are able to tell someone that has been filled with the Spirit and speaks in tongues and has experienced the operation of these gifts in their life, that they have ceased. I know, after being filled with Spirit and experiencing the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation and the gift of prophecy, etc, anyone would have a very hard time convincing me they aren't real.
---Debbie on 8/16/06

Reverend is used once in the bible Ps111: 9,
It means an object causing fear. It is used to engage the dreadful, fearful, astonishment and awe of God's glory. His renown, reputation and designation of His name as God. Those scriptures are usually portrayed to establish a ranking sequence. Christ was a teacher, that would make him less than an apostle. Paul was arguing the "yellow pencil" doctrine of his time.
---jhonny on 8/16/06

Heh Sue. Abnormal guilt is cult involment 101. People who are lost, don't know they're lost, and don't talk about it. Easy does it. We judge ourselves much harsher than God ever would. Your candid disclosure offers you freedom by this verse. 1Co 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." Love and peace.
---jhonny on 8/16/06

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We all imterpret things in our own way. Sometimes there is an agreement, sometimes not. Who's right, who's wrong, who's almost got it? Only God, knows for sure. I sometimes wonder what He thinks of how we go about trying to prove what we feel is the truth.
We may all be surprised:)
---lynet on 8/15/06

That sometimes I need answers so I can ask questions...and sometimes others need information I have gleaned over my years. Sometimes I get answers I can agree with...sometimes I get answers that make me want to puke.
---Amy9384 on 8/15/06

Spiritual gifts:
Ministry (office) gifts: Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher.

Motivational (practical) gifts: Service, Exhortation, Giving, Leadership, Mercy, Helps and Administration.

The following gifts have ceasted, they were tempoary.
Charismatic (spiritual) gifts: Wisdom, Knowledge, Discernment, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation, Faith, Healing and Miracles
---Rev_Herb on 8/15/06

#3 The key to the revelation knowledge of His Word is an open mind and a genuine desire to know the depth of His Truth. If you have God tied up in a neat little package of what you have been taught without letting in the possiblility that there is more or that there is something totally different from what you believe that could be TRUTH, you are not allowing God to reveal deeper Truths. Open up your hearts and minds to receive and grow in His Word, He won't let you down.
---Debbie on 8/15/06

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#2 Since then, I have learned to study and have been taught the Truth, by both the Spirit and Spiritually knowledgable men. When the Word of God is revealed in its fullness to your heart, you don't forget it, you recognize error immediately, and you are not swayed by every wind of doctrine that comes along. The Word of God is True whether it is believed by all or not, or whether the hidden Truths have been revealed or not.
---Debbie on 8/15/06

#1 I have learned that their are many closed minded Christians. Many have been taught what they believe to be Truth without studying it out for themselves. They have been taught by those who don't know enough of the Truth to recognize error when they hear it. How do I know? Because I was one of those Christians who believed what the "religious authorities" were telling me without knowing how to study it out and find the Truth for myself.
---Debbie on 8/15/06

I've learned I am probably going to go to hell when I die because I like differant types of music and I smoke and I have the nerve to question things that I dont undertand in the Bible. And lots of other things that I just cant think of right now. I learned that I sin way too much.
---sue on 8/15/06

One thing I have learned is that there are a lot of people who will have a rude awaking when the Lord returns. Any time some one comes up with something they don't believe, they never study it out for themself to find out if it might be true. 2 Timothy 2:15 says to STUDY, but that is the last thing most do.
---Jerry on 8/15/06

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Rev. Herb, I find your response hillarious. Why? Because you are one of those who believe things contrary to God's Word. Tongues is the NINTH gift of the Holy Spirit, you accept the first 8, but not the 9th and you mutilate it to the point where you deny it's existence. Lord have mercy on you because you are very wrong about this GIFT of the Holy Spirit. You deny the giver of the gift and you may very well not be with the giver for eternal life. My heart goes out to you that you are so closed minded.
---Donna9759 on 8/15/06

I am learning from these Blogs just how little I do know about God's Word. At first, I thought I knew heaps, but I have been proven wrong. The learning will never stop.
---Helen_5378 on 8/15/06

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