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Evening Made Before The Stars

I had a friend ask me, how God made evening and morning on the first day (Gen. 1:4-5) but the sun, stars, and appearantly time on day 4 (Gen 1:14-19). Isn't that backwards?

Moderator - That's exactly why God made everything in 6 literal days not each day representing millions of years as some believe.

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 ---tofurabby on 8/16/06
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Famous Biblical apologist RC Sproul has changed his mind and become a believer in 6 24 hour day creation. Have a look at the site creationontheweb dot com and type Sproul into the search box to see an article written by Dr Tas Walker, where Sproul gives his reasons for his amazing u-turn.

Good and informative reading about the foundational book of Genesis.
---Warwick on 5/21/08

Moderator ... your comment did not answer the question.
Incidently, how were the days measured, or was that before the world spun and before days and nights followed each other round the globe?

Moderator - 6 days.
---alan8869_of_UK on 5/19/08

well maybe God had a plan.I don,t know exactly how God did everything, and how long one of his days really is.I do know something of his nature,and the nature of men to question everthing to death.why,why,how,how,when,when,???????????for now we see as a mist,now we know in part,then we will see and know as he is known
---tom2 on 7/9/07

[*2*] like iron and bronze, i.e., not yielding rain! Now note this: If Mike were correct, and Israel thought of the heavens as a solid vault (commonly suggested from Gen. 1:8,14, etc.), such verses would be meaningless, since the sky would already be composed of something strong like metal! No! They had no such ideas; a very early Biblical author even uses the water-cycle of evaporation, clouds and rainfall in his speech (Job 36:26-28)!
---danie9374 on 9/14/06

[*1*] MikeM's comments that Genesis portrays the sky as some 'vault-arch,' prompt this reply: Figurative words no more necessitate pagan cosmological beliefs than does modern usage of terms like 'sunrise' imply we are all ignorant of astronomy! The phenomenological imagery of the Bible is both convenient and vivid. But let's take a look at a telling example which shows Mike's belief to be a 'foreign concept' cf. to the Bible: In Lev.26:19 and Dt.28:23, Israel was told the heavens would be... [cont.]
---danie9374 on 9/14/06

"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:11). Does anyone honestly think Moses believed those were six 'long ages'? No! God didn't lie to them! They were six literal earth-rotation (not necessarily exactly 24-hrs.; but close enough to be called:) days.
---danie9374 on 9/14/06

For the the ancient semites the Gen 1:14 'vault-arch of heaven' was a solid dome holding back the waters of heaven. The sun and moon, the two great lights are not mentioned by name as other peoples in the area worshipped them, so they are called 'lamps.' The earlier sunless 'days'-YOM are clearly metaphor.
---MikeM on 8/19/06

In Gen 1:24 'things which crawl' is a general term for mammals, reptiles, and insects. One must remember that 2 Gen is the Yahweh tradition. It is single, as opposed to the plural Elohiem of the first chapter of Genesis.-Hebrew tradition suggest a discussion between God and His heavenly court. Gen. 6:2 the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them for wives.(J)
---MikeM on 8/19/06

For some good answers to what Mike has brought up: Open GOOGLE ('Advanced' options), and in the normal "all the words" box, enter: 'Russell' and 'Grigg'. In the "exact phrase" box, enter: "naming the animals all in" and the first link should be his paper on this. There are, obviously, many other papers and books on this subject though. BASICALLY: Adam did not have to name every single species we see today; only the "kinds" in Genesis!
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

Please dont post things using the same name as I do.
---tofurabby on 8/18/06

Something to think about; Genesis is inconsistent on the question of whether man was created before the animals (Gen 2:19 or after the animals as stated in Gen; 1. Gen; 2 was assembled from the older "J" writer?) A 'literalist' view holding both stories to be a single account, as some do requires Adam to name all the animals and God to create Eve from his rib as a suitable mate within a single 24 hour period! This is compounded when you talk about when the first solar day began.
---MikeM on 8/18/06

Something to think about; Genesis is inconsistent on the question of whether man was created before the animals (Gen 2:19 or after the animals as stated in Gen; 1. Gen; 2 was assembled from the older "J" writer?) A 'literalist' view holding both stories to be a single account, as some do requires Adam to name all the animals and God to create Eve from his rib as a suitable mate within a single 24 hour period! This is compounded when you talk about when the first solar day began.
---MikeM on 8/18/06

tofurabby, I am surprised that no one seemed to say this before, but your friend's Q asks things from a geocentric viewpoint, earth as the center of the Universe.

Moses was writing from a view that was both universal and geocentric. Thus, In the beginning God created heaven and Earth talks about the Solar system, our Earth and the Universe.

Don't ask me how that squares with 14-19, but itis the only one making sense to me at this moment, and that does not make God out to be schizophrentic
---tofurabby on 8/18/06

Sure there is Jack, we just need to learn to read the bible as truth rather than conceptualizing it. It makes me think of a person explaining an abstract painting... "it represents the inner struggles of childhood", or something like that... when it was nothing more than random colored brush strokes on a canvas.
---tofurabby on 8/18/06

[3] represent evil). The only thing 'darkness' in Genesis 1 represents is the absence of physical light; either before God created it, or wherever the rays of light hadn't been directed to by God (the night side of earth). Any questions?
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

[2] so His statement must be physically relevant to the creation account; not merely symbolic. And it is: By creating light to shine on half the spinning globe, God defined a day as the 'light and darkness' of one earth rotation; morning and evening, day and night, one day! He did this, so we'd know He created the whole universe in just six normal (though not necessarily exactly 24-hr.) days! In contrast, 'God is light' is used of moral contexts in opposition to 'darkness' (which would... [cont.]
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

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[1] To put things slightly different (hoping it may further help others understand why I'm saying God cannot be 'the light' which He created), consider this: Is there anything about God that He could say "Let there be..."? Does anyone honestly believe He could say 'Let there be My goodness' or essentially, 'Let there be Me'? No. Everything about God already existed; eternally! As the Moderator said, there was no one there for Him to 'reveal Himself' to anyway,... [cont.]
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

-=4=- does He finally create 'natural sources' to provide such light (AND TELL US so His people would have no reason to worship the sun, moon or planets; though many others did!). God is not calling Himself 'good,' 'day' (or 'morning') in these verses, but rather physical light which He created to provide a time reference of 'day and night' that existed even before He created the sun. And yes, this implies the earth was spinning when He did so. Hopefully everyone understands what I meant below now.
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

-=3=- of the things He created. Try this: Substitute the phrase 'His shining' for 'light' in these verses and read them again: E.g., God "called 'His shining' day and the darkness" night. Ridiculous. Furthermore, God is not confined to our physical space nor is His Shekinah Glory part of the created universe! I believe when He said "Let there be light," it was the first time photons and electromagnetic waves came into existence. Then in v.14 (4th day),... [cont.]
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

-=2=- and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day." How can anyone think that God (or Jesus) is the same 'light' that He spoke into existence?! If the light was merely shining from Him, there's no reason He couldn't say so (since He has elsewhere when it's been true). But what does He say instead of this light: "...saw that the light was good;" (v.4) NOTE that phrase! God says it many times in this chapter... [cont.]
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

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-=1=- It appears that many here still need some clarity from Scripture! Let's read Genesis 1:1-5 again: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (2)The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. (3)Then God said, 'Let there be light'; and there was light. (4)God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. (5)God called the light day,... [cont.]
---danie9374 on 8/18/06

Alan not to go back to all of what I have said in the past about Hebrew words and numbers before days and so forth but I have yet to get the answer of why it would take God Millions of years to create anything?
God could, if He wanted, pull back hundreds of years and change history but He doesn't.
Could God have created everything in just one hour if He wanted?
There is always purpose and direction with Gods actions. A "Gap Theory" leaves that out.
---Eler on 8/18/06

Tofurabby--Except for the fact that there's no literal millennium.

As I said, TWICE God warns us not to understand "a thousand years" as we experience time on earth--then in Revelation, the most figurative book in the Bible, they are human years? Remember, the SOULS (not souls reunited with the bodies) were seen reigning with Christ 1000 years--how could they be fallen earthly years? And therefore the reign is taking place in heaven, NOT on earth.
---Jack on 8/17/06

Jack, Here is an interesting theory. Maybe the "1000 years is as one day" is a key that allows us to look at creation as an miniature example for the duration of existance. God worked for 6 days and rested on the 7th. So maybe we will live for 6000 years then the 1000 year millenial reign of Christ would be like the 7th day of rest. (remember, it is just a theory)
---tofurabby on 8/17/06

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Thanks danie9374, I checked the other blog you mentioned and your posts are helpful. I am a little confused why you think gap theorists dont like your answer. I am a gap theorist and have no problem with your answer at all.
---tofurabby on 8/17/06

Elder ... a little bit off the subject, but this question of a day being like 1000 years. Some have treated that as being very accurate, so no possibility of one of God's days being (say) 15m of our years.
I see the passage as just saying that God's timing cannot be related to ours? ... no specific equation in it?
What do you think?
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/17/06

Twice God has said in His word that 1000 years are as one day with Him.
That's exactly why the days of Genesis 1 are of indeterminate length, instead of 24 post-lapsarian earthly days as some believe.
---Jack on 8/17/06

actually scripture says God is light, in him is no darkness at all.and the glory of God shone all about them.When God shows up darkness this is since the creation ,don,t know what went on before.And it just might be possible for God to make things different from the logical sequence of our puny minds.
---tom2 on 8/17/06

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I also agree with the Moderator.
I think the confusion lies in the translation of the word "light"...
I looked this up in "Strong's" and there are two different words used in these passages; one basically means "illumination" and the other means "a luminous body"...Gen. 1:3-5 (1st day) uses only the word for "illumination," and Gen. 1:14-18 (4th day) uses both.
---Tbabe on 8/17/06

As a side note I find it interesting that God did not deem the second day of creation or what He created as "good". He created firmament that day. This is the atmosphere which is the air we breathe. Could this day have been seen as not "good" because this is the day Satan arrived on earth? The baible states that Satan is "the prince of the power of the air."
---Ryan on 8/17/06

Here is possibly a better way of explaining it. The holy righteous light of God turned toward earth. Much like an artist will turn on the light switch before he starts creating. WHen God ceased creating He turned the lightswitch off until He came back to create more the next day.
---Ryan on 8/17/06

The reason God said "Let there be light" is to say that God is focusing His attention to earth. Remember God is light. We are told to be Salt & Light. To reflect His glory. And in the new Jerusalem there will be no need for the sun because His glory will bring light for all hours.
---Ryan on 8/17/06

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tofurabby, I love this question. The creation of Earth in the first chapters of Genesis are interesting I love them and I do not believe they have been studied enough. Firstly I do believe that between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 elapsed different time periods that God could have had other creations on earth. There is nothing to say we are Gods first earthly creation. I particularly like Gen 1:2 because it says God was "brooding" I love this quality of God that is revealed that He is a thinker.
---Ryan on 8/17/06

The sun, etc was created on day 4. Days already existed, (time), but God gave us a measure, like a ruler on day 4, for our keeping of time. perception of time( LIKE a day) is not necesarily the same actual time elapsed.
Also, God spoke and, there was light. That conveys the idea of something coming about instantaneously. Did He keep speaking His creation into being for a million or more years, through each of the numerous supposed mutatons/adaptations?
---christina on 8/16/06

tofurabby and Moderator: Although God's glorious nature can shine more brilliant than the sun and not only blind us, but 'strike us dead' if we were to attempt looking at Him in earthly bodies (Ex.33:18-23 cf. w/ Rev.21:23, etc.), Genesis cannot be speaking of God as the light, because the light is not Him, but something He created! Read Gen.1:4. See the link I provided below to "Let There Be Light Created What?"

Moderator - Man wasn't created yet, therefore wasn't there to look at God.
---danie9374 on 8/16/06

Jack time is relative to the action enjoyed.
If I sit on a splintered rough old park bench in the rain with my girl friend (Who is my wife) five hours would pass like 5 minutes.
Yet if I sit for 5 minutes in a lounge chair with that ol' stink hog I coulda married it would seem like 5 years.
God and the Bible never said that 1000 years
IS one day with the Lord. It says it is LIKE one day.
Cond #2
---Elder on 8/16/06

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Cond #2
Why would God have to use thousands or millions of years to do what He did?
Is His power limited?
But if His terms were that One day is a thousand years Genesis 1 would still be only 7 thousand years not millions.
Why do I get the feeling that I am not writing for Jack but maybe others who are watching?
---Elder on 8/16/06

It may not be right but I see it as the evening when our Lord was buried and morning when he arose. With all things being in him he is our light of day.
---Shari on 8/16/06

***Moderator - God is light. God Himself?***

Interesting. So, when God shows up physically to the formless earth, his presence lights up the earth and then it becomes dark when he leaves. ...and he timed his visits to be morning and his departures to be evening. That is probably the best solution I have heard so far. This question was asked to me about 1 year ago and it still messes with my head.
---tofurabby on 8/16/06

Tofurabby # 2 What is sad is that one side says that they do know, although they cannot answer the questions. And sad again, that they then insist that those who ask the questions can't be true Christians.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/16/06

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Tofurabby # 1 there are many questions that neither Evolutionists nor Bible Literalists can answer.
Each side seems to be avoiding answering the questions put to them, because they dob't like to admit they can't answer.
But how can they answer? None of us were there, and God has not explained all the detail, for example the Bible makes no explanation of how the rotating days & nights can fit into to strict 6 day story.
---alan8869_of_UK on 8/16/06

tofurabby: See the discussion here at CN, Let There Be Light Created What? where I posted many comments about this! If you have any questions after reading them, just ask me in this "Evening Made Before The Stars" blog (or message me).
---danie9374 on 8/16/06

***Moderator - A few days could past without causing any problems to the life that had already been created? Where is the conflict because maybe I don't understand the question?***

I guess I am having a problem asking my question. I get you about sustainable life... The question is, if day 4 is the creation of the sun, moon, and time cycle, how was there morning and evening on day 1,2&3? How was there a day 1,2&3?

Moderator - God is light. God Himself?
---tofurabby on 8/16/06

My question was meant to ask, how were there days (light & dark, morning & evening) BEFORE the sun, moon which are for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years? How did days exist prior to the physical structure of the solar system. There wasnt a sun for us to orbit around. I am not trying to stump anyone, just looking for a good answer to tell a friend who used this to stump me.
---tofurabby on 8/16/06

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**Moderator - That's exactly why God made everything in 6 literal days not each day representing millions of years as some believe.**

The Bible twice--in Psalm 90 and 2 Peter--that one day with God is as 1000 years, and 1000 years as one day.

Do you believe the Bible, Moderator?

Moderator - The question shouldn't be whether I believe the Bible, but why are you confused as there is no conflict with any of the scriptures or my comments. What is confusing you?
---Jack on 8/16/06

Tom, I am with you on this issue. I know God had a reason, but cant find an explaination for this. I can only trust God, but would love to have an answer for my friend.

Mod, I do believe it took 6 literal days, but that doesnt answer the question. 3 days lapsed, light and dark cycles called morning and evening that God created on day 1. How is this, when the sun was created on day 4 along with time (let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years)?

Moderator - A few days could past without causing any problems to the life that had already been created? Where is the conflict because maybe I don't understand the question?
---tofurabby on 8/16/06

On the first day, God said let there be light. He called the light day and the dark night...
On the fourth day He said I will make a greater light to rule the day and a lesser light to rule the night. He put these and the stars to measure days and years.
In my opinion first God made a day with light and dark, then he made the sun, moon, and stars to measure the length of day and night.
---cathy on 8/16/06

At the end of Genesis 1:16 we find these words,"He made the stars also". Here in five words the majestic splendor that is the stars in heaven God flippantly and off handedly mentions this fantastic creation. Kind of like a second though as if he forgot to say anything about it.=== O what a magnificent, marvelous, powerful, God we speak of!!!
---mima on 8/16/06

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