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Does Man Have A Choice

If everything is predestined by God, where does the choice of man come into play?

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 ---Clayton on 8/20/06
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Before the fall man was predestined to walk with God, after the fall man was predestined to hell. Through Christ man is predestined to eternity in Heaven. Without Christ man is predestined to a eternity in Hell.
---Marcia on 7/14/07

I know It is more of God's choice than ours. I really have always had a problem with this word choice. Okey here is the choice that God's people have. Obey God and you get to live, disobey Him and you get to die. Is this a choice? I believe it is more Wisdom, than choice. "For whom He did foreknow. He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son"...The plan of the lives of all the elect of God had been fixed in God and not left to mere chance or happenstance. [Romans 8:29].
---catherine on 7/14/07

Something predestined is something that has already been settled. Regardless of how things look it will come to pass. Everything that God's word says is predestined & will come to pass. Our choice comes in when we decide whether or not to do what the word says to get what the word says we can have. For instance, healing, God already placed all sickness on Jesus, but we have to choose to layhold of that by faith. He can't force us to get healed, saved, delivered, etc.
---Rickey on 7/14/07

Eloy, I never said that there was contradictions in scripture, here are my words, QUOTE "Is this a contradiction in scripture? "No"!
---Billy on 8/27/06

.billy, There's no contradictions in Scripture, for the word "Repent" in scripture has different meanings when used in different contexts. It is a common error for people to take one word and attach the same meaning to that word in every instant and every place that it appears in Scripture. "Repent" can mean: return; regret; righten; get right; abase; correct; amend; mend; ect., depending on how it's used. BTW Holy Scripture reads that JESUS IS GOD, and also, JESUS IS THE SON OF MAN.
---Eloy on 8/27/06

Your premise is falty.Read MATH 22:14 "many... chosen" it looks like predestination.
I would rather see "many...chosen" as ALL are called but FEW RESPOND."
Note: 2 Pet.3:9 "not willing ... but ALL should come.. Rev.22:17 WHOSOEVER WANTS TO, let him come... freely."
John 3:16 For God ...that WHOSOEVER believeth...have everlastng life."
---Pierr5358 on 8/26/06

(3).. But Eloy, we know that God is all knowing and all seeing, and that He did know where Adam was. So if we can answer the question as to why God asked Adam where he was, then we can answer the question as to why God says he repented, and at the same time, that God isn't the Son of man that he should repent. I'll let God show you that one....
---Billy on 8/26/06

(2).. Eloy, if we can't understand the sovereignty of God, we can't understand why God says in one place that HE WOULD REPENT, and then in another place that HE DOESN'T REPENT. Is this a contradiction in scripture? No it isn't. Another example I had given was in Gen 3:9 where God called to Adam and said, "where art thou". If we were to take this scripture for what it says, we could truthfully say that God didn't know where Adam was.
---Billy on 8/26/06

Eloy, I say this with love, so bear with me.

I've already explane this earlier, so i'll copy and past what I posted.

Relative-- Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; AND GOD REPENTED of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Absolute-- Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN, THAT HE SHOULD REPENT: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
---Billy on 8/26/06

pt.1: God does not violate anyones freedom of choice to either obey or disobey him. When man abuses his freewill to disobey, then he limits God. God cannot work in a person's life if the person refuses him. Jesus did not do many miracles in some cities he went to because of the people's disbelief. If you choose to dis God, than how can God really bless you. Unless two are in agreement, they cannot walk together.
---Eloy on 8/26/06

pt.2: God has his Master plan in action, prophecies happen. His predestinated plan is not closed, for prayer is interaction with God. God predestines people and events to happen, yet fated theodicy is changed by prayer and fasting; God changes his mind when a one abases themself to him. Please read how God did not bring his predestined word against Jezebel's husband Ahab, because he repented. I Kings 21:20-22; I Kings 21:27-29; 22:51-53; II Kings 1:1-4,17; Ezekiel 18:20-32; 33:10-20; James 5:17,18.
---Eloy on 8/26/06

(4).. So yes according to these scriptures, it is Gods nature to "not" let us decide our road of travel? To speak against God, when He chooses to have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom he will hardeneth, would be saying, "GOD, WHY DID YOU MAKE ME THIS WAY "Rom 9:20"!! And yes, another scripture that NO ONE will comment on!!
---Billy on 8/25/06

(3).. You had also asked, "is it Fathers nature not to let us decide our road of travel?"

I'll answer with another scripture. Rom 9:16 So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH MERCY. Another scripture that no one will comment on!!
---Billy on 8/25/06

(2).. Rom 9:11 predestined both Jacob and Esau's destiny. Again we might ask why? "Answer" that the purpose of God according to election might stand!! So "yes", according to these scriptures, God has mapped out our lives, and if there are any detours, God has ordained them in our lives.
---Billy on 8/25/06

Hello Earl, Most people think that Gods predestined plan is wating for us to fall in line with it, but this isn't true. God does predestin us before we were born, to do His will. "We" are His predestin plan.


I can't seem to get anyone to comment on this scripture.
---Billy on 8/25/06

greetings,thanks for reply ,for billy,is predestiny a road that a man cannot turn around on and go back or detour from?knowing that we are all on a road of life traveling ,does our Father not permit us to change directions,go back and find another or is our road already mapped out pre birth?is it Fathers nature not to let us decide our road of travel?
---earl on 8/25/06

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Tom, If you would have read my post well enough you would have noticed that after I gave the definition for free will, I said that that doesn't have any place in the scriptures. I've always said that I didn't believe in free will, and you know that.
---Billy on 8/25/06

(2).. Answer me this question? If you were to take this scripture alone, what would you think about Gods memory?
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
You would probably say that the all knowing and all seeing God didn't know where Adam was.
---Billy on 8/24/06

Tom, I've already explained how God can tell us to choose, and that we do make choices. And also explained how that God works all things after the counsel of his own will. I've shown how all the scriptures go hand in hand. But you take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it.
---Billy on 8/24/06

bill,bill,bill, I set before you life and death choose. God said it the choice is your s he said. YOU CHOOSE Every christian alive today knows they have free will to choose.this is not a debatable issue by your own definition you are contradicting choice without regard to circumstances. be you say every choice is arrived at by cause,aka circumstances.make up your mind.
---tom2 on 8/24/06

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Earl, I don't quite understand the question. Could you go into a little more detail??
---Billy on 8/24/06

greetings ,thanks for replys,for billy,is it in Gods personality as a Father ?example;parallel your father ,would he treat you ,his son that way?thanks.
---earl on 8/24/06

Tom, Definition for free will,
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
This has no place in scripture. If this were true, then Jacob could have free willed himself to have not been chose by God to be his elect. If Jesus would have gave into His will, and chose not to drink of the cup that his Father had placed before Him, then He wouldn't have been the Christ.
See where this logic can lead us?
---Billy on 8/23/06

billy ,so what your saying is we are all stumbling through life waiting for the next cause so we can make a choice which in turn causes a affect, which then creates another cause, which affects us again,which creates another cause .over and over. are we in a loop of cause and affect???? friend you are dead wrong ,it,s apparent you have No idea what free will is.
---tom2 on 8/23/06

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billy, friend your mind is a choose God takes your choice and the repercussions and uses them to teach you some epiritual truth that you haven,t mastered yet.thats how it works.Gods wil is none would be lost,also that all would come to you think repentence is not a free will choice?your thinking is just SLIGHTLY SCUED towards cause and affect theory.BUT God don,t do causes ,he does affect you through tyhe holy spirit once you make a free will choice to repent and accept jesus.
---tom2 on 8/23/06

(2).. Ezek. 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I THE LORD HAVE DECEIVED THAT PROPHET, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

WOOOOOO, Could God do such a thing, would God do such a thing!!! YES HE WOULD!!!
---Billy on 8/23/06

Earl, didn't God cause Satan to torment Job, "Job 2:1-7"? If Satan can't do anything without God allowing it, then it's as if God is doing it Himself. I'll ask a question. If you, or me are deceived,"say", about the truths of Gods Word. Who has deceived us? Did we deceive ourselves, was it Satan, Or could we dare say that God has deceived us?Well here is the answer..
---Billy on 8/23/06

billy,greetings ,to reply,does your statement /question imply God caused job to "stumble" and feel as if God were torturing him?thanks for your reply.
---earl on 8/23/06

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Why don't you ask Job if satan can torture the minds of Gods children, and if satan did it in his own supposed free will, or did he have to get Gods permission..
---Billy on 8/23/06

there is an eternal plan for all,if God reveals it but for today we plan our destiny .lucifer based his revolt on the apparent automation of this universe and it is typical that man thinks that he functions in a limited space; so spiritual when he does not.tour parimeters are time based and restricted to the earth. we are mostly physical and limited spiritually until after we die.predestiny example ;did
God preplan satan to torture the minds of his children with fear?,or is it satans free will?
---earl on 8/22/06

So if we don't see the absoluteness of God, and understand that it's God whose working all things after the counsel of His own will, then how can God work in our lives when we think that were the ones in control!!
But if this is what we think, then this is what Gods will has "determined before to be done."
---Billy on 8/22/06

Relative-- Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; AND GOD REPENTED of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Absolute-- Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; NEITHER THE SON OF MAN, THAT HE SHOULD REPENT: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
---Billy on 8/22/06

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These scriptures, "Jer 10:23 and,Prov 20:24" are Absolute truths of Gods word, why, because Man's goings are OF THE LORD.
When God says choose you this day, we know that it's not in man to know his own way, so these are relative truths in Gods word "relative vs absolute". Can we find where there's other scriptures that prove this point??
---Billy on 8/22/06

When the scriptures say choose you this day, or, I set before you life or death. God is making a relative statement, how could God say in one place that it's up to us to choose, and in another place, Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? And Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
---Billy on 8/22/06

Tom, Never the less, the cause is still there, weather you disregard it or not, it's still there. As far as the outcome is concerned, that depends on what God was trying to teach us. It's still God working all things after the council of his own will. Fight against it, say that it doesn't exist, shout your free will to the top of your voice. If your free will is true, explane this scripture!!!

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
---Billy on 8/22/06

Earl, We are not machines, "BUT", He is the potter and we are the clay. Can you or me stand before God and say, why did you make me this way "Rom 9:20"? Why doesn't someone else try to explane these scriptures to me!!


Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, AND THE LORD HATH NOT DONE IT?
---Billy on 8/22/06

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Earl, I have never said that we don't make choices. We make choices every day, but they are not free will choices. If we have free will, what is to say that after all this is over, and "as most would say" that everyone thats will go to heaven will be in heaven, and everyone that has went to hell, is in hell. Someone could still decide to revolt against God and this whole thing start all over again!!! So how far does God work ALL THINGS after the councile of His own will go?
---Billy on 8/22/06

part 2, there was a poster who explained it in another post perfevtly,in dueteronomy God said, I set before you life ,and death CHOOSE.thats the free will brother the true free will choose,life or death.
---tom2 on 8/22/06

billy, let me just say that your posts are typical of people who think in the mind of the flesh, God gave us free will to make choices about spiritual matters,choices of whether to love and accept his ways. Thats the true free will that the bible speaks about. not deciding whether to buy a car,a house, or leave your wife.A feree will choice to obey him or continue to sin.a free will choice to choose life with him or death in the darkness of our sins.
---tom2 on 8/22/06

Rev. Earb,"Rom 2:28-29", Are you not a Jew which is one inwardly? Are you a Dispensationalist that believes that "Matt 8:11-12" this scripture was talking to them back there, and isn't talking to us spiritual Jews today? Doesn't this scripture speak to you "Matt 8:11-12"? If you can't see that this is talking to you, maybe you can see that Rom 11:18-22 does refer to you, Please comment on this scripture..
---Billy on 8/22/06

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billy, oh no my friend cause you can make either a good one or bad one ,right one or wrong onecompletely disregarding the cause and the outcome.this fact of making the choice and disregarding any factors is free will.
---tom2 on 8/22/06

Tom, You answered your own question, you said, "free will is the process of your mind evaluating any CIRCUMSTANCE "theres your cause" and after examining it you make a decision". There was the CAUSE of your choice right there, you chose not to cross the highway,"WHY" because of the busy traffic. You might call this free will, but this sanerieo has all kinds of causes to make you decide what to do. So that disanulls your choice from being a free will choice.
---Billy on 8/22/06

Just to clarify, Donna2277 is being addressed here, right?
So I'll stay out of this one . Can the moderators vote also?

Moderator - Yes.
---Donna9759 on 8/22/06

Billy, Matt.8:11,12 is refering to the Jews not Christians. They are looking for a king.
Phil the elder, Even John says that Jesus died for the whole world not just a few.
---Rev_Herb on 8/22/06

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Tom. I see Jesus also forgave sins before he was crucified. Just because he healed before he was crucified does not at all disprove that healing was not a work of the cross. Is. 53:4 says he bore our sicknesses and carried our diseases. That was a work of the cross as much as the forgivenss of sins.
---john on 8/22/06

Donna, How was Adam to know what Good really was, except he eat of the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL? Yes Adam had to eat of that tree to take his first steeps to becoming like God to know GOOD AND EVIL. Most people wan't agree with this, but it's true. God is all sovereign, God is working ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.
We all lack something in our lives to go from glory to glory to become more like Jesus, and believe me God knows what to send our way to mold us into His Image.
---Billy on 8/21/06

does not the spirit of truth lead you to still waters and peace in the valley?is the decision to find Truth yours or is it from someone other?are you a mechanized machine without knowledge of good or evil?do we not choose to live or die every single day?do we not know the spirits and angels have free will if they so choose to?God would have no need to search for us as we search for not this elementary?
---earl on 8/21/06

Donna, All of us have prayed "amiss" at some time or another, but are we to say that this isn't God working in our lives to try to show us something about ourselves? God does have a plan for all of us. How else are we to know what up is, if all we experience is down?
---Billy on 8/21/06

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Donna, Jesus truley didn't wan't the multitudes to understand what He was talking about. Why would he do that? So that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. So when we think that it's us that wan'ts to serve God, it's only God working in us, and Him putting the desire in us to begin with. When we truly realise that it's all of God, and we can do nothing of ourselves, then God can truly use us.
---Billy on 8/21/06

Donna, I haven't been posting that long on this webb page. But here are the blogs i've posted on.
1.Who is Carlton Pearson?
2.Christian Just For Heaven
3.Does Man Have A Choice
4.Is A Sinners Prayer Sufficient
5.Redemption Plan For Satan
6.Too Many Types Of Churches
7.Why Does God Allow Suffering
8.How Is Man In God's Image
9.When Do We Go To Heaven
---Billy on 8/21/06

billy, without what??? free will is the process of your mind evaluating any circumstance and after examining it you make a decision,or choice.cause you want to cross a busy intersection you choose to wait until you won,t get run down before you cross.the process of making the decision is your will.I,ve decided not to go, thats your free will decision not to attend a function.evil is in man,because of his free will decision to disobey God,with the help of satan.angels rebelled they have free will also.
---tom2 on 8/21/06

God did not put all sickness on jesus.jesus healed sick before he was crucified.God put upon jesus all sin ALL.the iniquity of us all. unrighteousness.and by his stripes we are healed.spiritual healed thru jesus.are flesh bodies have been and always will be suseptable to disease because of the fall.
---tom2 on 8/21/06

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Here are some scriptures
1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit FROM THE LORD troubled him.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, AND THE LORD HATH NOT DONE IT?
---Billy on 8/21/06

Yes we make choices in life, but they are not free will choices. A free will choice is a choice that is made without a cause. Every Choice that we make does have a cause, and God is the great cause of all things. God has caused everything that has happened in the bible, including the evil. This sound like blasphemy but it's not. Didn't God create evil or didn't He, and does God uses evil for His purpose or doesn't He?
---Billy on 8/21/06

Rev_Herb, It is implicitly clear from the scripture citations I previously provided in this topic that God has predetermined some individuals for salvation and some arn't.
---Phil_the_Elder on 8/21/06

Nothing changes the fact that were Gods children, but just because were His children doesn't mean that if we don't bear good fruit, that we won't be cut off because of unbelief. Wouln not this cause you to loose what God has given you?
---Billy on 8/21/06

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Rev. Herb,
Matt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE CAST OUT into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Just because we think that were Gods children, doesn't give us special privileges that says that we can't loose our salvation.
---Billy on 8/21/06

Billy-- mostly, I agree with you. But I'm still trying to sort out how far I can apply the predestination idea. (BTW where can I find the quotes in your last few posts?) In James 4, the apostle seems to be addressing believers, yet he says in vs. 3 "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts". Here, God was obviously not directing their prayers. And every Christian I know, myself included, has prayed "amiss" at some time. Can you explain?
---Donna2277 on 8/21/06

He leads us and guides us into all truth, it's up to us to follow where he's leading and guiding us. If we don't, we can fall into a "snare of the fowler." God doesn't push or force us, he gently leads and guides. We make the choice to follow after Him. Do you think ALL Christians are out there doing His will? (NOPE).
---Donna9759 on 8/21/06

I have a son born into my family. He does something wrong, is he no longer part of my family? Did he loose his relationship with me or did he loose his fellowship with me.
If we sin, we loose our fellowship with Christ not our relationship.
What sin causes you to loose your salvation? If you could loose your salvation, how could you ever be saved again in light of Heb. 6:1-6
---Rev_Herb on 8/21/06

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Phil the Elder,
How do you understand "Whosoever will" Are you saying some are predestined to heaven and others to hell?
---Rev_Herb on 8/21/06

---Billy on 8/21/06

(3).. Donna, It is a will which is "determined before to be done." Whenever we ask God for anything or simply give Him thanks or praise, we do so because He has caused us to want to make that request or give that praise or thanks. We do so for one reason; because "[His] hand and His counsel determined before to be done." When we pray, it is God who caused us to pray.
---Billy on 8/21/06

(2).. Donna, We all pray for the same reason Christ prayed. We all pray because we need to humble ourselves before and bow our selves before God. God does not need our prayers. We need to learn to pray to God. Prayer is not for God's benefit; it is for our benefit. God does not "allow" anything. God "works all things after the counsel of His own will."
---Billy on 8/21/06

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(1).. Donna, Everything about the crucifixion of Christ, including his prayer to have this cup removed if possible, was "to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." So Christ's prayer is very easily reconciled with "after the counsel of His own will."
---Billy on 8/21/06

Only God's preordained elect achieve salvation: John 15:16; John 17:6; Ephes. 1:4; Ephes. 2:10; 2 Thes. 2:13
---Phil_the_Elder on 8/21/06

(2).. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
As long as we continue in his goodness: otherwise we shall be cut off also.
---Billy on 8/21/06

(1).. WWOOO, Rev Herb, we have a choice to serve Christ or not, but once we've choose to do so, we can not choose to lose our salvation again? Do we have free will or not? Me personally, I think we have a will, but it's far from being free from Gods sovereign plan.
God wills our will, weather good or bad. But what about us not being able to be cut off after we've received the knowledge of the truth?
---Billy on 8/21/06

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Helen, you've got it backwards, It's all according ro His predestined plan that gives God His foreknowledge, I can't believe what i'm reading... Debbie, How can you say this,
"you quoted", "Predestination comes into play after the choice has been made".
No scriptures for that...
Rom 9:11 (For the children BEING NOT YET BORN, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
---Billy on 8/21/06

I like many of these answers, I especially like Debbie's answer.
When a person jumps out of an airplane is impossible to jump back in and likewise once a person places themselves in God care and hands he will not turn you loose and you will not fall out.
---mima on 8/20/06

If everything is predestined by God, why pray?
---Donna2277 on 8/20/06

(2.) God does not predestine if a soul is going to Heaven or Hell, it is up to us where we are going. That's why it is important to receive Jesus and obey His Commandments. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/20/06

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There are some things God predestines and some things He doesn't, Salvation is not predestined because God gives man freewill to serve Him or not. --Mrs. Morgan
---Mrs._Morgan on 8/20/06

God has given man a freewill, therefore man has the choice to say yes or no to God. However God does know all things and He knows who is going to say yes to His free offer of salvation. It is only by God's foreknowledge that things are predestined.
---Helen_5378 on 8/20/06

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