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 ---WilliamB_Adair on 9/29/06
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We need to all be of Jesus Christ's Doctrine ,period. All denominations and cults have error and separate from one another in the first place. The false prophets,teachers,pastors of old took scripture,distorted it to meet their needs and now here we are arguing about who is correct. Well, none are. A lie is a lie and all of the lies are of Satan and go to hell with him. We all need to wake up and see what happened to the Truth and just read our Bibles and begin to be of one mind and love one another.
---jody on 7/25/07

It was said here. deny until facts overwhelm. total hypocrisy by many here. it has been proven beyond a doubt that many doctrines taught in born again churches is fiction from the bible scriptures quoted by people belonging to many churches. do christians say yes I was wrong and they are false, NO. they continue to fight and prove the bible is false so they can indulge the world and deny Jesus Christ. They then profess to follow him, when Jesus himself says he will not know them at the judgment.
---Lori on 7/25/07

Gail. I don't know which cult, denomination you belong to, but I believe in following Jesus Christ and the bible. every time you attack others, you are showing you belong to satan. Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself and don't condemn someone else following him. Only Jesus judges everyone, not you. if you don't have something good to say, keep quiet. I may belong to a baptist church, but the bible forbids me from hating everyone who isn't baptist. That is why I have an LDS best friend.
---Lori on 7/25/07

Deny - until the facts overwhelm.

Attack - the sources, the critic, anything to change the subject of discussion.

Use the Personal Defense A clever variation on "Attack" which shifts the focus to the hard-done-by apologist and away from the substance of the debate.

The apologist might all but make up an attack against himself, for example, and use attack language toward himself, as if the critic had said it, and then shift into a Personal Defense.
---Gail on 7/24/07

The apologist will make up an attack against himself, use attack language toward himself, as if the critic had said it, then shift into a Personal Defense.

Accept and Reject - essentially the "so what" defense, regardless of the merit of the evidence rejected.

Assert Victory - this includes "victory" over the factual information that was never reasonably refuted.

Refuse Re-engagement - once victory is declared, continued debate can be declared irrelevant.
---Gail on 7/24/07

Gail-I find religious bigotry as vile as racial bigotry. I note from your posts you define only fundamentalist as Christians- you even say other protestants are not Christian. In the end you may end up seeing the only 'true' Christian in the mirror, as all outside that mirror re apostate, cults, etc. etc. etc. "Self-rightiousness is a very sincere form of narcissim"-Mark Twain
---MikeM on 7/24/07

"the only people that have all the answers are LDS's. that is too coincidental. its time we learned to accept everyone for who they are without trying to prove everyone else is wrong.
---lori on 7/23/07"

Lori, Dave, Ashley, friend of MikeM., time to put the holy drawers to rest.

Mod - there is an ad on here for the holy drawers and other mormon props.
---Gail on 7/24/07

So why are you lying about being a member, Lori?
Aren't you convicted by using Lori for the same old dog and pony show, and saying it's your friend?
A Christian couldn't care less about the inner workings of the Mormon Church and certainly wouldn't give two cents worth of their time defending it. Who are you trying to kid?
---Gail on 7/23/07

You have your routine down pat, Lori Dave.....
The Catholic blogs, the Mormon blogs, the OSAS and You Can't Lose blogs. That's about as much scope as you have for Christianity.
The rest of the blogs allude you. I know what the Mormons really think about the Catholics, so do you. I have posted so much that you were never able to respond to, it became boring.
---Gail on 7/23/07

A mormon apologist's job description:

The Short Version

Deny - until the facts overwhelm.

Attack - the sources, the critic, anything to change the subject of discussion.
---Gail on 7/23/07

Use the Personal Defense A clever variation on "Attack" which shifts the focus to the hard-done-by apologist and away from the substance of the debate.

The apologist might all but make up an attack against himself, for example, and use attack language toward himself, as if the critic had said it, and then shift into a Personal Defense.
---Gail on 7/23/07

Accept and Reject - essentially the "so what" defense, regardless of the merit of the evidence rejected.

Assert Victory - this includes "victory" over the factual information that was never reasonably refuted.

Refuse Re-engagement - once victory is declared, continued debate can be declared irrelevant.

Emphasize Feelings bear testimony based on feelings. This shifts the argument out of the objective into the subjective.
---Gail on 7/23/07

Rachel, you are funny. you say others are wrong, when you are following lies and deceits of man too and don't care. doctrines invented at the reformation of the sixteen hundreds. Why don't you condemn yourself too. Christians love to ridicule others, but people here have proven many doctrines are false. Not LDS's, but people like yourself. if you believe the doctrines of OSAS, the rapture, you are living a lie. will you admit it too that you were deceived. Let God judge everyone. that is NOT our job.
---Lori on 7/23/07

Oh, I see now. It was an older blog that comes up with the current date.
That always takes you by surprise, like the old hurricane blogs. One headed our way, please pray, and it was two years ago.
---Rachel on 7/23/07

2> Because it's so painful to admit to themselves, mormons resist any attempts to be brought to their senses and see the fraud for what it is. The problem with a cult is that people want to be the "chosen people". It lends power and mystique to the religion of fantasy. It is the wanting to be the chosen people that cause a religion to be destructive. I've spent most of my life at the center of the storm.
---Rachel on 7/23/07

Hey Triggerman: Don't you realize that the 2, now 3 Cumorah theory actually call JS a liar and incompetent in geograhy?

Why would hundreds of thousands of Lamanites and Nephites march from Mesoamerica to New York to fight a final battle of extermination? Preposterous!!

Joseph SmithHistory 1:5154 clearly defines it in Palmayra, NY.

Nor is there any evidence that JS traveled ANYWHERE let alone 3000 miles to the south before 1828.

Do you think Scottie beamed him there & back?
---John_T on 11/25/06

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Hey Triggerman...Moses could not see God's face because Moses had sin, and sin would be consumed by God's glory. This scripture is found in Exodus.
---sam on 11/24/06

Part II:
(Exodus 33:18-23, NIV)

Then Moses said, Now show me your glory.

And the Lord said, I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But, he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

Then the Lord said, There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock.
---sam on 11/24/06

Part III:
(Exodus 33:18-23, NIV cont.)
22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.
---sam on 11/24/06

Part IV
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
---sam on 11/24/06

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You forget that all of this Mormon is <176 years old.

You forget that your list was seen by "many witnesses", but JS was the ONLY person claiming to seethose.

The Ark was seen by generations, not so the JS plates.

Over 500 people saw the resurrected Christ; not so the JS stuff.

No language exists called "Reformed Egyptian"

No evidence, and disproved by Smithsonian that Indians are Jewish.

BOM is a book of fiction, not so Bible.
---John_T on 11/24/06

I can see why Mormons waffle on questions on science...they don't want you to expose the lies of Joseph Smith that are disproven by scientific facts.
---Pooh_Bear on 11/24/06

Where do the Mormons get this false info from? God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.
---sam on 11/24/06

i am currently studying with the Mormons. What I note is they do not flinch or run when I ask questions, and I mean tough questions. That is unique, very unlike some other groups I know. If they do not know the answer, they seem to find it. They do seem to waffle on science, but are not-anti science. The ones I know are decent people, but some seem too materialistic.
---MikeM on 11/24/06

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I belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the One Who shed His precious Blood on the Cross in sacrifice of Himself for sin. I am in Christ.
---Helen_5378 on 11/24/06

Sam.. Good points. John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath ddeclared him." You are making a few assumptions here... 1st, where in the bible does it say that man can't see God? It said that no man "hath", not "will" or "cant".. infact the oposite is true.
---triggerman6 on 11/22/06

Second: Was not the God of the Old Testament seen by a mortal man? Face to Face even? Had the scripture you quoted been written before this event, would it be discarded that it cant happen because it has not been written that it would? No... you like logic and facts, run this response through the same process...
---Triggerman6 on 11/22/06

So your statement that no man has "has" seen God, is only yours. With no facts to back it up. But there is a precident where it has happened, Jesus(God of the old Testament) to Moses. So according to you, with no scripture to say it can't happen, just decided that it can't happen.
---Triggerman6 on 11/22/06

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John T: Fair points. Except, JS never said the civilization was in New York, you are looking under the wrong Cumorrah, who said there is no such thing as reformed Egyptian? Reformed Egyptian is a description, not Spanish, Hebrew or English. I know, tell that to those in LA that speak/ write Ebonics. It to doesn't exsist because it is not popular around the world. Right? Is that a factual response or not?
---Triggerman6 on 11/22/06

John T: Let me put this another way,

There is NO evidence of the Stone 10 Commandments.

There is No evidence of the Ark of the Covenant.

There is NO wooden cross with a sign on it.

It causes me to wonder why you place your faith of eternal life in something for which there is NO CORROBORATING EVIDENCE

what did you ask Santa for anyway?
---Triggerman6 on 11/22/06

I love how what you choose to challange can be applied to you in the same way. Thank you. It makes this very easy.

Oh, and yes, I do think that, as you said, faith is required. The same faith you use, the only difference is, we ask different questions to God, and he does tell us what is true. The Pizza is a bad example, you better choose another one, unless you want to make a point that if you go back to the same source you get a different answer, but we have talked about the bible now havent we?
---Triggerman6 on 11/22/06

Triggerman, Do you think a "testimony" trumps the lack of facts? Well, I get the same sort of testimony every time I eat a pepperoni pizza.

Believing that nonsense is true, with all the missing, science fiction-like evidence is the theological equivalent of "The dog ate my homework"

Think that will fly with God?
---John_T on 11/20/06

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I live near, and been to Palymara, NY

There are NO evidences of any civilization like JS describes here.

There is NO concrete box EVER found.

There IS NO evidence of 100,000 bodies under Cumorrah.

There are NO evidences of Reformed Egyptian WORLDWIDE.

It causes me to wonder why you place your faith of eternal life in something for which there IS NO CORROBORATING EVIDENCE

Do you also believe in Santa or leprechauns?
---John_T on 11/18/06

There is only one God (Deut 4:35) and one mediator between God and Man, and that mediator is Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2:5). No man has seen God, except Jesus Christ (John 1:18). Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary, but he was conceived by the Holy Spirit (not by God having a sexual encounter with Mary as Mormons claim...see Matthew 1:18)
---sam on 11/16/06

Thats funny, did you know that is what started all of this? KJV James 1:5, Even one of the LDS scriptures gives one the same challange: Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:4-5. Amazing just how the two books teach the same gospel principles.
---Triggerman6 on 11/8/06

No, I am not. Are U doubing your faith or just curious is that why the question?If in doubt get alone ask God to "help U unlearn" the things man has taught,ask the Holy Spirit to teach U & open the NT & read it as if for the 1st time just like a child & see what happens. I had to "unlearn" all of mans traditions, all my "head" knowledge & learn w/only my heart. I had to put aside all my so called wisdom & humble myself & read it w/the simplicity of a child.
---Jeanne on 11/8/06

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It contradicts istelf in the human writings of the man that wrote it, but not in principle message. As far as it being twisted: That is the exact point I am trying to make. Thank you.
---Triggerman6 on 11/8/06

The Septuagint was the only Bible of the 1st Cent. Christians. A distinction between the Greek Septuagint and Hebrew versions didn't occur until the fourth century with Jerome.
---Triggerman6 on 11/8/06

So aside from the Apocrypha being included in the Septuagint, there are significant examples of differences between the Septuagint, 6th century Masoretic Text (which the KJV is mostly based upon),being supported from various sources of objective evidence such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and older Hebrew vorlage.
---Triggerman6 on 11/8/06

These show the different OT books have definitely been modified by others after they were initially written or else there should only be one textual version of each book. So which family, or specifically, Codex (out of over 5,000)has not been "twisted". What we use has already been twisted and can not stand on it's own.
---Triggerman6 on 11/8/06

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Triggerman the Bible never contradicts itself. Satan always twists scripture. He did that when he was in the wilderness and tempted Jesus. The Bible talks about how there will be a time when people depart from sound doctrine and turn to teachers who say what their itching ears want to hear. You better go scratch your ears!
---sam on 11/8/06

So I give you all 36 KJV bible scriptures and only 3 are directly challanged, and that with an interputation....2 callanged with a contradiction from the same Bible itself... is that the best you can do? Thanks for making my point for the blog on if the bible is the only source of truth...
---triggerman6 on 11/6/06

C. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
D. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
---Pete on 11/6/06

Triggerman you say "God used to be man" but the scriptures you provided are referring to Jesus Christ, but considering you are a Mormon I can understand why you are confused. Rev 3:21 is about Jesus inviting people to accept him and be with his Father God in Heaven. Rev 5:12 talks about the Lamb, referring to Jesus, who was sacrifice for our sins. John 3:13-14 talks about Jesus (read 2 verses more and it will tell you about salvation!).
---sam on 11/6/06

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Triggerman: Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34-36 are both using "gods" to talk about rulers or judges. Perhaps you should get a bible concordance to help you understand the Bible better.
---sam on 11/6/06

Okay, The Mormons may be on to something here. It looks like we have one of three choices:
---triggerman6 on 11/5/06

1. We can see why they think what they think as it is in the KJV of Bible, 2. We can challenge and denounce what they believe and think, but that means we discredit the Bible. (So do we just toss it out, only those books, we cant use it against them, it is there in black and white (sometimes or 3. We must accept that the Bible may not be translated correctly and is a problem. You choose, but they make very good points.

---triggerman6 on 11/5/06

- God used to be a man= Revelation 3:21/5:12, John 3:13-14, Genesis 32:24-30,
- We may become gods= Psalms 82:6, John 10:34-36, Genesis 3:5/ 3:22, Romans 8:14-18, Daniel 7:9-14
- There are many gods= 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, Philippians 2:5-6, John 5:18-27, Revelation 3:21/5:12, 1 Samuel 28:7-18,
---triggerman6 on 11/5/06

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The Trinity is three separate Gods= John 17:3,2 Thessalonians 1:7-10,Mark 1:10-11, Luke 3:21-23, Matthew 3:15-17, Acts 7:55-56, 1-Peter 3:22,Matthew 26:39-42, John 17:3-5/ 12:28-29/ 20:17-18/ 20:20-22, 1-Corinthians 8:4-6, Ephesians 4:5-7, John 14:26/ 15:26, Acts 2:38-39, Matthew 12:31-32, Acts 1:16, Matthew 28:18-20, Philippians 2:5-6
---triggerman6 on 11/5/06

Evolution is a theory and the Bible doesn't say how old the earthis, but it cannot be more than about 15K years. The Bible says castastrophe, not evolution is the way we see the earth. First, the creation itself where God speed up everything and second a world-wide flood. How long would it take to make a fossil of a leaf? It would blow away or dicinagrate, but if a glacier slammed into it and pressed it against a rock..get the picture.
---Joe_Smith on 11/5/06

Candice, I've attended services at all you mentioned also but never believed the false doctrines that flowed from many of them. (Catholic, LDS, SDA, JW, etc.) Are you saying that it is okay to regularly participate in the religious service with these churches? Maybe I have just misundersood. I agree it's your relationship with Jesus that matters but we show what's on the inside by the associations we have on the outside. Darkness has no place with light. Also Romans 16:17
---jason on 11/3/06

I am a christian. no matter what church I choose to go to I am still a child of God, baptized & follow him. I am not perfect,but I have a relationship with Jesus Christ & his father. I attend a methodist church with my husband, but I am still a christian. you can take the church away ,but still have yourself.I have attended baptist,non-denom,LDS,Jw,lutheren,catholic have seen it all but bottom line is I still go to God.
---Candice on 11/3/06

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Sam, you have said it well. If they will not admit it to themselves or to the world, it does shake them up. For the rare few that support it here, they could move on to mormon blogs. But they don't. You and I aren't big enough to wear 'God shoes', the Holy Spirit is. You're a Samuel, God bless you brother. Rachel^^^
---Rachel on 10/27/06

RA...I am hoping to keep the rest of Wm. Adair (and other mormons) from being set on fire...eternally!
---sam on 10/26/06

Here's an interesting thought for your next encounter with a Mormon: The whole of the LDS Chruch Doctrines hinge on the belief that the Native American Indians, who were given the original golden tablets which were "translated" then magically "dissapeared, are indeed a Lost tribe of Israel. They believe they Are Isrealites who journeyed to this new land. Unfortunately for them, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young didn't forsee modern Science. Cont...
---jason on 10/26/06

Scientific proof now proves beyind a rwasonable doubt that the Native Indians from the tip top of North America to the South shores of South America, none of the Indians are of Middle Eastern Decent. DNA has proven that they are of Oriental decent. Most likely traveling across from Alaska. WIth this now blown out of the water, What do they have to stand on now?
---Jason on 10/26/06

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Good work, Sam. That ought to set Wm. Adair's hair on fire.
---R.A. on 10/25/06

To recap: Mormonism FALSELY teaches:(from Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry--sources can be found at their website)
- God used to be a man on another planet and Mormon members may become gods of their own worlds.
- There are many gods.
- The Trinity is three separate Gods.
- Entrance into celestial heaven is by the consent of God and the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith.
---sam on 10/24/06

***FALSE*** Mormmon Doctrines (from CARM) Part II
-God has a body of flesh and bones.
-God is married and produces spirit babies by having physical relations with his goddess wife.
- Jesus, Satan, and all of us are spirit brothers and sistersprocreated in a pre-existent spirit life.
- God had relations with Mary to make Jesus body.
-You must shed your own blood for the forgiveness of some sins.
- Good works are necessary for the forgiveness of sins.
---sam on 10/24/06

So let's expose Joseph Smiths false prophecies even more:
"I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted..."(History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).
Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May 6, 1843.
---sam on 10/19/06

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Testing the spirits: Is Joeseph Smith false prophet? YES!
"While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them ..."(J. Smith, Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116,
---sam on 10/19/06

Testing the spirits: Is Joeseph Smith false prophet? YES!
Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring... (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)

This was made 4/17/1838 and Patten died that fall and didn't make the mission the next spring!
---sam on 10/19/06

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therfore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose END shall be according to their works.2cor,11.
---winna on 10/19/06

Bruce McConkie is a Moromon..look what he wrote
"If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who wilfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, . . ." (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188-9.)
---sam on 10/19/06

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Doesn't the Bible tell us what to do with False Prophets?
---Jason on 10/19/06

Another false prophecy from Joseph Smith. He said that this nation (USA) would never be attacked from foreign enemies. That proved to be untrue during WWII and, of course, on 9/11.
---Susie on 10/18/06

Another false prophecy from Joseph Smith. He said that this nation (USA) would never be attacked from foreign enemies. That proved to be untrue during WWII and, of course, on 9/11.
---Susie on 10/18/06

Now that DNA has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Indians here and in Central America are of the Far East decent and it is 100% impossible for them to be one of the lost tribes of Israel, which is what everything the LDS Church stand on, what does the church say now? Now where did the Book of Mormon come from? In Christ, Jason
---Jason on 10/16/06

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So what if your an LDS.

But I have one question. Would you still have a relationship with God without your religion?
---Steveng on 10/16/06

I have not read any where where he tried the spirits. I do know that Gods Word tells us if anyone comes to you even if it be an angel that they will be cursed if they change anything in Gods Holy Word. It further goes on and said that many will believe a lie and be damned.
---oneaa7874 on 10/16/06

William B. Adair, are you still here?
---JohnT on 10/16/06

William B. Adair,
Do you know if there is any claim that Joseph Smith 'tested the spirits' which allegedly appeared to him?
1 John 4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
---Tbabe on 10/16/06

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7)...RE: **There may be educated penbtacostals, I have never seen one.**
Sadly, it seems you've been blinded by your bitterness towards them; and I'm not going to continue trying to defend them. Strait-up, Mike, you need to seriously forgive those in your past. Until you do, they'll continue to have control over you, keeping you from perceiving God's Love and knowing His forgiveness.
---Tbabe on 10/15/06

5)...The Mormons are incredibly warm, kind people, and I understand why you would be drawn to them; however, "good works" are their ticket to a higher level of heaven. (so they think)

Anyway, would you humor me?... Google "Utah Lighthouse Ministries" (utlm) and read the quote from J. Smith- it's on the home page in an orange box, after reading the quote, click the link to read the whole sermon... Tell me what you think O.K.
---Tbabe on 10/15/06

Eloy: O.K. funny boy, ha! ha!

Rachel: Good points.

1)...You're reading the BoM and you're still awake?! Wow! lol I presume you've been getting a lot of sleep lately... Just messin' with ya. ;o)
No, honestly, I haven't read it all the way through for myself, I personally don't feel a need to...
---Tbabe on 10/15/06

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