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Can A Person Be Born Evil

Can a person be born evil? If so, then can they change?

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Eloy, there is a church that teaches the Two-Seed Theory with a hilarious name -- Two-Seed-In-The- Spirit Predestinarian Baptist Church. I love it! God bless you.
---JohnnyB on 2/11/09

King David said:
Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Man is wicked and sinful by nature. It is only through the working of the Holy Spirit that one is made good.

Christ said:
Mt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Who made the tree good? Who made the man good?
---trey on 2/10/09


Now what do you call that: "Eloy's Theory of Evilution"?

Got any scientific data to back that up?
---atheist on 2/10/09

Moses Stuart, says: "How can it be consistent now, that we should denounce others in severe terms, who, in order to make out their favourite tenets, do on any occasion superinduce a meaning upon the sacred text which will support their own peculiar views, and yet we ourselves, who thus readly denouce this practice in others, do the very same thing in respect to the passage before us where no declaration is at all made, that the evils resulting from Adam's sin, or the benefits bestowed by Christ's obedience, are by imputation?"
---TRU-DOG on 2/2/09

Not all children are born innocent, helpless they are until they mature, but not all innocent. Since the time of Christ, there are 2 races being produced in the world, the holy and the unholy, and depending upon which progenitor you are born from will determine whether you are born holy or else unholy. If you take a bad father and a bad mother, and they merge producing offspring, then the offspring from 2 bad parents will be a bad child. Now after the child grows and is able to choose which path in life to follow, Christ or sin, and according to the choice the child makes determines whether the child will be raised a child of God or else a child of Satan. Please Read- I Corinthians 7:14.
---Eloy on 2/2/09

Do you believe all were born with the gift of Free Will?

Have you ever seen an evil baby?

Do you believe God would predispose any of us for a miserable life by creating a lust for evil within us?
---Deb on 2/2/09

Rod, everyone is born a sinner. Why? Because everyone is separated from God through God's curse when he/she is born. That is why. They are spiritually dead to God. And because of this condition, they are sinners. Why? Because anything they do, without God is sin. "Everything not of faith is sin." Any good they do in their lives, counts as sin for not giving the glory to God that He deserves since "all things good come from above." The descendants of Adam also die a physical death.
Jesus says to the believers, "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify (not you, but) your Father who is in heaven," to whom the credit is really due.
---MarkV. on 2/2/09

great post frank!
---miche3754 on 2/2/09

The word says:
The spirit of man lusteth to envy.
The heart is deceitfully wicked.
The spirit of man seeks the things of man.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
David said he was shapen in iniquity and in sin did his mother conceive him. The same holds true for all of us.
Paul said there was no good thing in his flesh except the Lord.
We must repent and be renewed by the Spirit of God.
---Frank on 2/2/09

Can a person be born evil? If so, then can they change?
Maybe this would be an appropriate blog to raise the question: Can a person be born without a conscience? How does one lose a conscience?
Has anyone ever met a person with antisocial personality? A person without a conscience.
A person without a conscience is capable of incredible evil.
---Rod on 2/1/09

Albert Barnes, says: "They have sought for a theory to account for it. And many suppose they have found it in the doctrine that the sin of Adam is imputed, or set over by an arbitrary arrangement to beings otherwise innocent, and that they are held to be responsible for a deed committed by a man thousands of years before they were born. This is the theory, and men insensibly forget that it is mere theory, and they blend that and the fact which the apostle states together, and deem the denial of the one, heresy as much as the denial of the other, i.e. they make it as impious to call in question their philosophy, as to doubt the facts stated on the authority of the apostle Paul".
---TRU-DOG on 2/1/09

J.W. Jepson, says: If sin is an ontological substance or essence instead of a moral choice, if it is a metaphysical principle that causes choice instead of being the evil choice itself, the logical and necessary result is to remove the blame for evil from the human moral agent and place it instead on the metaphysical essence itself. Man becomes the victim of this thing called "sin," rather than the responsible perpetrator. Human depravity is regarded as metaphysical rather than moral and voluntary. God's grace is needed to overcome, not voluntary depravity (depravity of choice), but an involuntary helplessness and an inability to choose in any way other than evil.
---TRU-DOG on 2/1/09

J.W. Jepson, says: The supporters of the doctrine of inherited original sin appeal to several Bible passages that have come to be viewed from the presuppositions of an essentially Platonic/Neo-Platonic frame of reference. That frame of reference is a prism that determines the definitions and connotations of certain Biblical words and phrases, notably "sin." Because these Biblical passages did not in themselves teach the later doctrine of original sin, they had to be "retrofitted" by eisogesis to conform to a Greek philosophical template.
---TRU-DOG on 2/1/09

J.W. Jepson, says: It is important that we consider and understand these Biblical passages from a Hebrew/moral frame of reference instead of a Greek/ontological frame of reference. That is, we will regard The Scriptures in their natural definition of sin and holiness as voluntary moral choices, not ontological (metaphysical) essences. "Spiritual" does not mean "mystical." It has to do with moral choices and character, and a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
---TRU-DOG on 2/1/09

Hello True Dog, what you are giving me is not helping me. And what I say to you is not helping you either. While you have a lot to say, most of what you say is not in Scripture are every time you made a comment you would put Scripture down to show your position is in Scripture. I gave you an answer on one passage and you laugh and others though you were funny.
Frances on the other hand does a lot of talking and doesn't even have a bible handy she said. Now she implies that I am a real swine and dog. What she forgets is that I spoke many times on her behalf when people attacked her. It seems to me many here have splite personalities.
I have a hard time knowing which one I speaking to.
---MarkV. on 2/1/09

J.W.Jepson, says: In Platonism and its subsequent variations the question of the cause and nature of evil was basic. The general assumption that sin and evil are ontological (that they have actual essence) contributed to and forms the basic premise of the doctrine of original sin. To be inherited, sin must have essence, real being, it must consist in some thing that causes evil choice and action, instead of being the moral character of the choice itself. With this mind set it is common to regard sin in the heart as an essence instead of a voluntary choice, hence the term "sinful nature." This evil essence is regarded as a part of human nature.
---TRU-DOG on 1/31/09

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Moses Stuart, says: A man's sin is and must be his own act, either internal or external, or both, and for men to be hamartoloi, they must be actively and voluntarily so. Another man's sin can no more be mine, than his soul can be mine, no more than his consciousness, will, affections, or disposition, can be mine. To impute them to me, then, must be to impute to me what in fact does not belong to me, what never did, and what never can. The candid advocates of imputation in its highest sense, concede this. But how much progress do we make in the knowledge of things, and in the explanation of important principles in theology, when we affirm that God counts that as existing which does not in reality exist, and which is in itself an impossibility?
---TRU-DOG on 1/31/09

*The will is free to be self-acting, in view of motive, a motive may be the reason why one acts, but not the cause, God is not the cause, and He does not cause some to be lost and others to be saved. The notion or assumption that a sin-nature is the cause, is a scheme, that is aginst the freedom of the will, because if you are forced to act by a sin-nature, then where is the freedom to be a self-active being, and can you resist this cause for action? The causation of sin is self-caused or self determined, it is not caused, by another. If you are forced to act, or sin, -what ever is the force of that act is the responsible cause or agent.
---TRU-DOG on 1/26/09

Let it be understood, Tru-dog, as soon as you start telling the truth the swine and dogs come after you. They first attack your reputation at the same time trying to isolate you. Do you wish to be treated better than they treated the Master (Jesus)? Well, anyway, God Bless you.
---frances008 on 1/17/09

MarkV, Let's look at this: " I also noticed that in about a month you haven't posted one passage, maybe you have and I missed it, to proof what you say is from Scripture, or that God said it was so by His Word."---Is this true, or is this a false assumption?
---TRU-DOG on 1/17/09

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MarkV, Let's look at this: "If you want to make a case for man, you have every right to believe they are not fallen."---It is not just a case for man, but God, to believe God caused a being to be sinful, and then require him, to obey, when he cannot, and then give "Grace" to save him, after it was caused by him, and to be unable, and then to be able, and only save just a few, because you can, on a whim, is one crazy assumption, or notion, that ever danced around, in the mind, of a believer.
---TRU-DOG on 1/17/09

True Dog, everyone has a choice, you as well as me to do what you like with the Word of God. If you want to believe that man is not fallen and that David was not fallen when he was born. That is ok with me. He was made good, I believe he wasn't missing any parts at all either. I don't read where it says he had one leg or one arm. But the wages of sin is death. And all die. "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" And right now all men die because of that sin.
If you want to make a case for man, you have every right to believe they are not fallen.
---MarkV. on 1/17/09

MarkV, Let's look at this: "You find this to be an argument everyday, and even laughable to you. I don't believe the Word of God is to be laugh at. My help you don't need." ---Your assumption that I find the Holy Word of God, funny, is a false assumption.
---TRU-DOG on 1/17/09

True Dog, you convince me to stop answering your personal questions about your theories and opposition to the fall of man. Nothing I say can be of any help to you. I will move on.
---MarkV. on 1/17/09

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MarkV, Let's look at this: "David is wonderfully made after he is born of the Spirit" Are you for real?! This is the best you can do...Please! You make my hair hurt!
---TRU-DOG on 1/16/09

MarkV, Why don't you answer my questions? I take great care to ask them...Please give me some more feed-back!
---TRU-DOG on 1/16/09

We are born in sin. We have a sinful nature at birth. Everyone does. Only Jesus can change the heart. Unless the heart is renewed through the new birth, it would be impossible to change. You vcan not change yourself. And no one can change you. Only Jesus and then it's a slow process.
---catherine on 1/16/09

True-Dog, proof Text:
1. Psa. 119:73 "Your hands have made me and fashioned me, Give me understanding, that I may learn your commandments" God made him, and as you notice he had no understanding of the the things of God.
2. Psa. 139:13,14 "I will praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made," David is wonderfully made after he is born of the Spirit. For Psa. 51:7=10, David said, "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean, wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me hear joy and gladness, that the bones you have broken may rejoice. Hide your face from my sins, and blot all my iniquities" Create in me a new heart, O God" Sounds like David needed a new heart.
---MarkV. on 1/16/09

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MarkV, Proof Text: Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73 Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139: 13,14 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb: Job 31:15 Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Eccl. 12:1 Know ye that the Lord he is God, it is he that hath made us and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3
---TRU-DOG on 1/15/09

MarkV, Proof Texts: " Mt.18 Jesus said "Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?" Then He called a little child to Himself and said "Except you be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." And in Mt.19:14 Jesus tells us "Do not forbid the little children to come to Me for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." Thanks! -Anne
---TRU-DOG on 1/15/09

MarkV, Lets look at this: " Ps.51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb:they go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies."--- An infant cannot speak lies, do you believe, an infant inside, or outside of the whomb, is sinful, and has sinful intents, or motives, and has moral-consciousness, and, has an understanding, of right and wrong, and sins, or lies, the moment of conception, or birth? Everyone knows this is not true, your own consciousness, of oughtness, and rightness, is against your false assumption.

---TRU-DOG on 1/15/09

MarkV, Poof Texts:..all of you are the children of the most High. Psalm 82:6 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them. Gen 1:26, 27...I have created...I have made them. Gen. 6:7 For in the image of God made he man. Gen.9:6 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright, Eccl.7:29, Man is the image and glory of God. 1Cor.11:7 Men are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9 He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25 We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29...I am...the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16
---TRU-DOG on 1/15/09

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True Dog, you say for me to "proof that you sound good"
Well, you are curtious, friendly, haven't said anything nasty to anyone. You love to bring conversations up and discuss your opinions with others. Does that proof what I said?
I also noticed that in about a month you haven't posted one passage, maybe you have and I missed it, to proof what you say is from Scripture, or that God said it was so by His Word.
Now how about what I say? You have an obligation as a child of God to check what I say with Scripture. I try my best not to give my opinions but to present the Word of God as it is written. I even write it down so you don't have to go get your Bible. Because half of the time many don't even open them up.
---MarkV. on 1/15/09

MarkV, Prove to me that I only sound good, and your ideas and opinions of the Scripture is right. Just because you state your ideas and opinions of the Scripture, does not prove that your assumption, is right. That is why I don't get into the Scripture as much, because you will give your opinion that I am wrong, and your are right, so I use "Natural Theology" to prove you are wrong, the human conscieousness of right and wrong, or the idea of what is just and reasonable, is my proof, the Word of God affirms this to be true.
---TRU-DOG on 1/15/09

True Dog, if someone disagrees with me, that is fine with me. It is when people disagree and have no proof from Scripture and want people to take their ideas and opinions as Truth. The Word of God is clear, and I don't see why it is not clear for you.
The RCC for centuries taught what their opinions were. They read the Bible and use Words of Scripture to introduce believes not found in Scripture. No one complained because they trusted them. In the process so many false doctrines were introduce so as not to lose people, to make money, to keep power, and keep the flock blind. Now that Scripture is open to all of us, we can check what they say against the Word of God and proof how wrong they were.
---MarkV. on 1/15/09

Naulon, I have never heard a brother call anyone, not even an unbeliever a pig, or swine. You took a passage out of Scripture to show me your heart and I saw it. You want to speak for God and at the same time speak evil to me, which was really what was in your heart. You are not a swine, but your pearls are fake pearls.
If I crossed the line by trying to correct you about not using God's name in phrases you shouldn't, then go ahead call me a swine. I don't mind speaking for God's name. You sounded good when you first came on line. I applogized to you already and don't want to discuss anything with you either. I am not mad, I was offended but I still love you, and not because I have to.
---MarkV. on 1/15/09

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God chose Jacob over Esau was to show he chose the New Covenant over the Old. (Romans 9:6-13)

people of New Covenant are elect of God.---Naulon on 1/14/09

God knowing the path of Esau could make determination. Division is revelant in split of Judah/Nth House of Israel.

All of Romans contextually to Israels 13 nations.
Answered in Hosea
25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people,
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]
The lost sheep/divorced wife.
---Trav on 1/15/09

Is God the "Great-Cause" and his moral creatures the occasion for all his action, this is "Occasionalism Theory?" It is against our own conscieousness, to believe that God, causes, both good and evil, and chooses some, over others, by a mere whim, and no good "Infinite Reason" and "Infinite Wisdom" just because he can, this is alot like, the "Mechanical Theory," the universe is a vast machine.
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

MarkV, You think that if someone disagrees, with you, they must have an argument with God, this is your own assumption, and is begging the question, this is not my assumption at all, but your own, my replies are merely to come to my own defence.
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

Can God not choose or elect someone, on the bases of "Fore-Knowledge" of future moral-actions, before they have made their first moral choice? The "Omniscience" of God, is not limited to time, and space, with "finite-existences", there is a beginning, with the "Infinite" there is no beginning, time is only predicated to the finite, with the "Infinite" past, present and future has no distinction, it is one period of duration, all events actual and possible are know to him, because he is "Omniscience," his election is predicated on his "Fore-Knowledge" of obedience and moral-behavior.
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

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MarkV, The "Omniscience" of God, is not limited to time, and space, with "finite-existences", there is a beginning, with the "Infinite" there is no beginning, time is only predicated to the finite, with the "Infinite" past, present and future has no distinction, it is one period of duration, all events actual and possible are know to him, because he is "Omniscience," his election is predicated on his "Fore-Knowledge" of obedience and moral-behavior
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

MarkV, Let's look at this: "God said it was so" "You are argument is with God not me"--- This is your assumption not mine, I'm not under the same assumption, as you are, concerning this subject.-- For, what ever reason, you, refuse to answer my questions, is it because you can't? You just make statements with no proof, it is only your own assumptions, "your assumptions are your proof, and, your proof are your assumptions," this is no proof at all. Do you think because you make a statement it is a fact or true, and we are to just believe you, without thinking and being objective?
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

True Dog, I did not say it was so, God said it was so. And I believe it by faith. You are argument is with God not me. it is in fact His Word, but if you want to not listen, it is your right not to listen, but if the Holy Spirit is guiding you to all Truth then you will know it is truth because it comes from Him. Listening to His Word and believing are two different things.
---MarkV. on 1/14/09

MarkV, To say that God can't choose someone before they make a choice, when they are in the womb, or just born, is to forget God's "Fore-knowledge" and "Omnipotence", and the future moral-actions of man. Can God not choose or elect someone, on the bases of fore-knowledge of future moral-actions, before they have made their first moral choice?
---TRU-DOG on 1/14/09

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markv,naulon, thank you brothers.
I was just answering frances question about where it says that.
I know we must look at the context it is spoken in , too.

trav, I really like how you responded to the dog thing.
That is really true. We have to be very careful about taking things out of context and know when there is a blessing and when there is a curse. "Christ called a woman a dog healed her daughter" this was a blessing.
the other was.. well you know.
God bless you!
---miche3754 on 1/14/09

Miche, you have to read the whole context of Romans 9:10-12. "For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls" Before these two kids were born God already favored one over the other. They hadn't done anything good or bad to determine God's choice, rather God's choice of Jacob resides solely in God's own Sovereign plan, a perfect example of election unto salvation. God has chosen some Jews, some Gentiles but not all, for salvation. It was not determined by their works "but of Him who calls" The Word of the Lord.
---MarkV. on 1/14/09

Dogs are worthless people. And so on. God's children are sheep.

Everyone knows these things so don't try and tell us different.
---frances008 on 1/13/09

Well, I find that everyone think they know(me included)....but when weight of scripture witnesses comes out....
Dog, for instance. Christ called a woman a dog healed her daughter. If I'm a dog, I'm a believing dog. Some dogs love master. Some wild dogs. Some wolves. Dog is is not Children...except in some homes.
Mar 7:27 ButG1161 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto her,G846 LetG863 theG3588 childrenG5043 firstG4412 be filled:G5526 forG1063 it isG2076 notG3756 meetG2570 to takeG2983 theG3588 children'sG5043 bread,G740 andG2532 to castG906 it unto theG3588 dogs.G2952
---Trav on 1/14/09

Mark V,

The parable Jesus spoke about pearls before swine is apt. You trampled my pearls, which I really don't mind. That's fair game in these blogs. But you crossed the line when you "turned" on me and accused me of calling God sick. That was beyond belief and really made me mad. I let it pass the first time asking you not to do it again, but you repeated it. You were being a pig that trampled on my pearls and turned to tear me to pieces. Sorry if you feel offended.

You've apologized in a different thread, and perhaps I've overreacted. I apologize for that. Let's let it be. Time has a way of healing, so I suggest, for the time being, we agree to stay away from each other so we can lick our wounds.
---Naulon on 1/14/09

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The verse you are looking for is Genesis 25:23. Although the word "hated" is not used the fact that God had chosen Jacob over Esau to inherit the covenant happened while they were in the womb.

But I caution you not to use this as an example for predestination of a person's salvation. The only thing predestined was the inheritance of the covenant blessings and typified the supremacy of the New Covenant over the Old. The reason God chose Jacob over Esau was to show he chose the New Covenant over the Old. (Romans 9:6-13)

The people of the New Covenant are the elect of God. All are called and anyone who trusts in Christ are "children of the promise".
---Naulon on 1/14/09

here you go frances.
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

These are the only two verses I found where it says God hated Esau.

trav, can you supply the verse where it says God hated Esau "from the womb"? I am having trouble finding it.
---miche3754 on 1/14/09

To---frances008 please let me suggest Romans 9:13,"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
---mima on 1/13/09

Trav, please supply the verse(s) in the Bible from which you find that God hated Eseau, since I have looked this up in three places and cannot find anything in the Bible or on the internet. Maybe it is my bad eyesight.

God uses metaphors of animals to describe people in the world. Swines are those who reject what you say and then try to destroy you. Dogs are worthless people. And so on. God's children are sheep. Everyone knows these things so don't try and tell us different. Goats and sheep are separated at the day of Judgement. (the unrighteous from the righteous.) Vultures gather to rejoice over the destruction done by the swines.
---frances008 on 1/13/09

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IMHO God does not hate any of his creation. Some people do things that God hates and God can see in advance. God hates the sin but loves the sinner and hopes that they will repent. God did not make people for destruction eternally, though he might destroy the body to save the soul. The same God judges all men and he is completely fair. This is my opinion, and therefore I do not quote the Bible - I am sure verses can be pulled out of context to prove me wrong. I read the Bible as a whole book without neglecting any verses.
---frances008 on 1/13/09

Trav, thank you for your answer. I don't believe I ever called anyone Swine" I don't even call unbelievers swine. An animal at that. They are human beings who need the Lord.
Again thanks for your support. I already knew that speaking for God's Sovereign right to Rule was going to cause some anger from those who push for the right of man to save himself, and knew the opposition was going to be hard. I use to be one of them myself, until I figured out who saved me. The war has been on for centuries. The Word of God does provoke and does make many angry. Peace to you brother in Christ.
---MarkV. on 1/13/09

You've tried my patience long enough! You've falsely accused me of blasphemey twice. Your are not a brother. You lack love. I will not throw my pearls to swine again. Good bye Mark.
---Naulon on 1/13/09

I don't see you this way Mark. A swine wallows in the filth of the world....sometimes it might apply to filthy doctrines. Which you do neither of, but search. Scripture can provoke, I'ts made many angry here.
Perhaps, Naulon hasn't seen that GOD hated Esau from the womb. Pharaoh who he raised to show he was GOD. The ones that died in the localized flood. Sodom. The ones that will never rise again. Not all had the law. Not all fall under the damnation judgment of it.
---Trav on 1/13/09

Naulon, go ahead and use God's name anyway you want. I am not your father. You say I am not your brother and I was hoping from the beginning I started answering you, that you were a brother in Christ. I guess you are not for you said, I will not throw away my pearls to swine again" you called me a "Swine" and you said "again." those are great words coming from a Christian. You are not who you say or pretend to be. And that was great evidence of your fruits and your brotherly love, If I had agreed with your false opinions I guess I would be fit to be your brother. Sorry, I don't fit in that family.
---MarkV. on 1/13/09

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Naulon, I understand your statement, you didn't say God, "is a sick God."
---TRU-DOG on 1/13/09

Mark V,


I said, "God doesn't preordain some to damnation and others to life. God's love is not that cold. I could never follow a sick god like that."

I did not call God a sick God. I said a god who would preordain some to damnation would be a sick god.

You've tried my patience long enough! You've falsely accused me of blasphemey twice. Your are not a brother. You lack love. I will not throw my pearls to swine again. Good bye Mark.
---Naulon on 1/13/09

True Dog, another great awesome answer on behalf of faith, it is as you said, "But faith is trusting, and believing, and having an assurance, in God, in His Word, it is an inward choice, of the will, or heart"
---MarkV. on 1/13/09

Naulon, I like your ideas of "faith", faith is not a mental ascent, a mental ascent of God's Word, is a means, to have faith, but, faith, is trusting, and believing, and having an assurance, in God, and his Word, it is an inward choice, of the will, or heart.
---TRU-DOG on 1/12/09

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Anne, you got that right in your answer to Mic. I am glad you see those points. Any merits of man no matter how small come from a humanistic view of salvation. God opens hearts, eyes, ears, for the Spirit brings light to Scripture. It's a God centered theology.
---MarkV. on 1/12/09

Sister Anne, I want you to know that I don't want you to feel sorry for me. I am very happy with the Word of God. When I answer I don't expect Arminian's to agree with me. And right now there is more of them then reformers. I, as you, didn't want to argue, as you told Mic. I have put enough of God's word to make my case. What Arminians have is a theory, and as evolutionist they do a lot of talk an give a lot of opinions but no Truth only theories.
What I do know is that God opens the hearts by His Spirit, and if He doesn't do it, the heart remains the same. If God does not bring sight to your eyes, you will remain blind. It is God from first to last whom I defend. Maybe one day you will see this Truth.
---MarkV. on 1/12/09


Understand Paul's use of the word "works". Paul's categories are:

Works = Following the Old Covenant Law.

Faith = Following Christ in the New Covenant.

Luther and Calvin misunderstood, believing:

Works = Any kind of physical action.

Faith = A mental ascent.

Works for Paul is following the Old Covenant Law. Faith in Christ is not a work of man's righteousness under Old Covenant Law. Neither is baptism, loving your neighbor as yourself or good works within the New Covenant. Paul is not saying there is no need for good works. He is only saying that salvation comes through Christ in the New Covenant, not by faithful adherence to Old Covenant Law.
---Naulon on 1/12/09

Mic~ Sorry for the confusion. I simply meant that 'works' alone can't save me. God had to open my eyes that I was a wretched sinner in need of repentance, and I needed to repent, and strive to live in a way that was honoring to God from that day forward.

And yes, you're right, we must have works that show our faith. Works of charity, and works that show our complete love and devotion toward God and all others.
---Anne on 1/11/09

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Tru-dog~ I wrote down the books you mentioned and will look into those eventually, thanks a lot.

I feel kind of bad about Mark V. I don't think you or I were trying to be insensitive...we were just trying to get to the logic and to the bottom of things...and were trying to present sound scripture and reasoning as well. I think what we've been sharing about (you've contributed much more than me), are about extremely important topics concerning the Christian faith. I liked what you said to Mark V. once about the fact that you felt sorry that he no longer wished to talk about the issue, but that you hoped it brought about some food for thought.
---Anne on 1/11/09

Anne, I was just wondering if you had, I was just curious, if you have not that is, OK.
---TRU-DOG on 1/11/09

Anne"-Your tone meant to be offensive or defensive is not an arguement, or a slight.But being a lady is your privelege which is overused in this case.The question remains ununswered "What is work".Assuming you have faith and grace,as you claim I notice a lack of charity.Peace.Your wish is noted as a denial.
---Mic on 1/11/09

Naulon, you said a lot but none of it is from Scripture, it's your own opinion and probably what was taught to you. First, about Jer. you changed the meaning, for where does it say, inspiring fear means the Cross? Where in Scripture does it say that? Second, you said, in a Covenant with God the two parties have choices. Sorry again because God makes the Covenant and God gives the rules. The humans have nothing to demand from God. God gives the rules and man has to follow them. No man can demand anything in a Covenant with God. Study what Covenant means.
Third, You say, God saves him "when he joins" the New Covevant, Where in Scripture does it say that? Another part you cannot back up with Scripture.
---MarkV. on 1/11/09

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Naulon 2 Continue: And because I warned you to be careful how you use the name of the Lord you get angry. You said, "If God did not give free will, He was a sick God" This is the God that gave you Spiritual life when you were dead, took you out of the darkness into the light and you make a remark that if you didn't have free will He was a sick God. You couldn't take yourself out of darkness no matter how much free will you had. I know you believe in free will, but to go to the extend of calling God sick, because you don't have your rights is wrong Naulon. Lets say you are right about free will, putting God in that category is wrong. You could have phrase that statement without calling Him sick.
---MarkV. on 1/11/09

Mark V,

You quoted Jeremiah 32:40. But NIV has a better rendition of the verse: "I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me."

Question: How does God inspire them? Answer: Through the cross. And notice free will is perfectly in tact.
---Naulon on 1/11/09

Mark V,

You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said, "A person saves himself when he accepts Christ." God saves him when he joins the New Covenant. A person is saved by grace through faith. It's a covenant. Each party has choices. Determinism destroys covenant because. under determinism there is only one party.


"It is the Grace of God that allows you the choice to be saved." Well put brother!

The Pharisee: "We are saved by works of the Law."

The Calvinist: "We are saved by the whim of God."

Paul: "We are saved by grace through faith." (Ephesians 2:8)
---Naulon on 1/11/09

Mark V,

About "shouting" Mark, you in so many words, accused me of slandering God. Frankly that pissed me off! If you want me to be more composed then don't do that again.

You said, "Didn't you give up all your rights to God when you gave Him your life?" To give one's rights and life over to God are acts of free will. You're being inconsistent AGAIN.

God doesn't draw "who he wants". (As though he didn't want everybody to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9) He died on the cross and those who are inclined are drawn to him. (Your keep twisting scripture to say exactly the opposite, this time, by adding extra words to it. STOP IT!)
---Naulon on 1/11/09

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Mic~ I already said I do not wish to speak to you on a level that may have a tone of being argumentative. Thank you for understanding. I think you're a fun guy, and you have a good sense of humor, and for me to talk with you in that way is fine. Stay cool.
---Anne on 1/10/09

Dang Tru-Dog~ lol, if you want you can buy me all those books as a Christmas gift for next year. I wish I had more time for reading other than the Bible, and my kid's homework, and the mail...but I don't have that luxury. Thanks for the recommendations though. Maybe I'll check them out sometime. Thanks again.
---Anne on 1/10/09

Mark V,

If God is a god who chooses beforehand who is saved and who is not before they are created, a god who denies free will, then he is breaking covenant. The only stipulation in the New Covenant is to love one another. Love is "acting in the best interests of the other person." How can determinism be "acting in the best interests of those determined beforehand for damnation?" That's not love.

Such a god would not be deserving of my respect. He would be a fake and liar.

Fortunately, Jesus isn't a fake. Calvin was.

Why are you so afraid of a God that allows autonomy? Why are you so insecure?
---Naulon on 1/10/09

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