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Are Christians Predestined

Is it not true that Christians will never have Biblical unity until we all agree that our salvation was predestinated from before the foundation of the world? (See Ephesians, Ch 1)?

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 ---Alan_Springfield on 11/15/06
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Jerry, you had said *If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden wasn't about freedom of choice, what was it about?* Jerry it wasnt about free will choice, but obtaining a knowledge of both good and evil to become more like God. Adam and Eve both lacked this knowledge, and it takes a creation both experience and time, to learn these things. Adam and Eve were not born with this knowledge but had to obtain it through experience.. God bless
---Billy on 5/8/08

#3 God planned before hand, that everyone who would believe in His Son should be saved; he who would not believe, of course, could not be saved. We were predestinated or marked out for sonship, the first and basic spiritual blessing. Consider the original word (HUIOTHESIAN), here translated adoption of children. It is from huios meaning a son; and from tithemi meaning to place, put, fix, determine, plant.
---Debbie on 9/12/07

Lisa, im only doing as you claim to be the proper way to interpret scripture. If Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and I do believe this scripture to be true, then we are no more Israelites according to the flesh than the dog spoken about in Matt 15:26. Lisa, show me a scripture in the four gospels, spoken by Jesus, that you think speaks directly you, and ill show you by context that you are wrong. God bless
---Billy on 12/5/06

jews have a covenant with God for healing and deliverance - "the childrens bread" - "children" are those of the Abrahamic covenant.

gentiles had no covenant with God until Acts10 reveals it to Peter.
but Jesus still healed and delivered gentiles because of their faith.

"the dogs" are the sheepdogs that work for the master. Jesus presented a way to get the bread, and she took it.
---JaeR on 12/5/06

No, it is not true.

Christian Biblical unity will be achieved when all Christians believe now as all Christians beleived from the beginning, and as the Orthodox Church still believes.
---Jack on 12/5/06

2. The subject of universal salvation is just not in Scripture, instead there is much to say on the destination of those that are lost. Concerning the words of Scripture, it shows us that God will judge the world. When He judges the world it will be on the day He has appointed. He will judge in righteousness. Finally, the judgement will be by Christ Jesus whom God raised from the dead. God also has a right to be the supreme Ruler, by the fact that every creature is totally dependant upon Him.
---lisa on 12/5/06

I don't know why you mentioned what you did about Jesus only talking to Israel. Billy, each passage has a meaning in and of itself. One meaning and we can only get the true meaning when we read the whole context of each passage. We cannot take passages out of context to build a theory. The whole of Scripture has one story. Complete and correct. No passage contradicts another. We do run into passages that we might not get yet, but we will when God reveals it to us.
---lisa on 12/5/06

Lisa, according to your translation of scripture, If we study the four gospels, Jesus never once tought to anyone other than to Israel. So this being true, according to context, Jesus's teachings were not addressed to us. Any scripture that you us from the four gospels could be refuted by context that Jesus isnt speaking to us. Lisa, please tell me how one scripture in the four gospels can be speaking to our benifit when context shows otherwise? God bless
---Billy on 12/5/06

Hello Nana, the passage in Jer. Is speaking concerning the nation of Israel. It does speak of the coming covenant which is the covenant we are in now. The passage in Matthew refers back to the lost sheep of Israel when Jesus was speaking, as He did many times when he refer to Old Testament accouns. In context the passage in John 21:15-17, "Feed my lambs" The word "feed" conveys the idea of being devoted to the Lord's service as an undersheperd who cares for His flock (1 Peter 5:1-4).
---lisa on 12/4/06

2. Yet through this talk Jesus had with Peter, He also made known to Peter that by following Him and doing His work he would meet his death. Jesus call of devotion to him would also mean that Peter's devotion would entail his own death (Matthew 10:37-39). Why would he die, because he acknowledged he love Christ. Because of that love he would meet his death and by that death he would glorify God.
---lisa on 12/4/06

3. That is what I read from those passages. Am I suppose to read something else? I really don't understand, but the context of each one of the passages. Is there some connection you wanted to show me? I will listen Nana, for sure, just pin point what it is that is suppose to be reveal to me. Thank you Nana.
---lisa on 12/4/06

I will forego the question about "believers" and "lost" and address the "covenant people".
Jeremiah 50:6: "My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray,

they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have

forgotten their restingplace." This verse shows that the reason for the children to be lost was
---Nana on 12/4/06

caused by their very shepherds! There is in that chapter a promise and a new covenant

announced, for a time to come. In those days "They shall ask the way to Zion" and will receive it,

for they will have the true shepherds. John 21:15-17.
---Nana on 12/4/06

I have been using the KJV and it does not say "little dogs". A house pet gets excited when it sees

its family and we would call it to us. Jesus rather ignored her. She would not desist and Matthew

15:25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me." We know that Jesus knows

the hearts and the mind of men, even the future (Peter deny 3 times). He surely knew the woman's
---Nana on 12/4/06

heart and her faith. He acted as such for a showing of a testimony of what is living faith. Peter

himself got "grieved" (John 21:17) for less than been called a dog.

But the woman humbly accepted what she was called and made herself be worthy if just but for

the "crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Jesus exclaimed "O woman, great is thy faith".
---Nana on 12/4/06

That woman's faith was tried as if by fire and it did not burn. Faith and humility and innocence are

exalted by Jesus. Matthew 18:4: "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the

same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
---Nana on 12/4/06

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Nana, the passage in Matthew was directed to the covenant people. Israel. If you go to Matthew 10:5, you will see that Christ did not forbit the disciples to preach to the Samaritans, and Gentles if they encountered them, but He told them do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter a the city of the Samaritans. There instructions were to go to the covenant people, Israel. "The lost sheep of the house of Israel Is mentioned in Jer. 50:6 also.
---lisa on 12/2/06

2. The passage on Matthew 10:6, Jesus narrowed this priority even more when He said the gospel was only for those who knew they were spiritually sick (9:13) and needed a physician (Luke 5:31,32). As you continue on Matthew 15:26, the children's bread " the children is again speaking about the lost sheep of of the house of Israel, Jesus was saying, that they should be fed before the "little dogs" Christ employed a word here that speaks of a family pet. His words with this woman are not
---lisa on 12/2/06

3. to be understood as harsh or unfeeling, in fact He was tenderly drawing from her an expression of her faith, see verse 27. The parable in verse 11, that he gave was to the scribes and Pharisees.
---lisa on 12/2/06


"Matthew 15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Would you say that the "lost sheep" spoken of in that verse were "believers" in the same
sense that you use the term or would you say they were "lost" in the same sense that you use the term?
---Nana on 12/2/06

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Nana, those passages you read are talking to believers. It is not talking to unbelievers. It is talking about the children of God, Scripture clearly teaches that if we are saved, we become children of God. The lost are not children of God. I am sorry but the lost do not inherited an inheritance. They get the wrath of God. Verse 13 states, "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth" only the believers trust God when they come to Christ.
---lisa on 11/30/06

2. Nana, let me say also that the condition of men is very critical to understand. He has to understand the state he is in while lost in order to want to change. When we witness to others we have to bring this condition to them. Men left in their dead state are unable of themselves to repent, to believe the gospel, or to come to Christ. They have no power within themselves to change their nature or to prepare themselves for salvation.
---lisa on 11/30/06

3. Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? God is saying that even if they did good they cannot change who they are. John makes it clear also that God has to come to the lost and draw him to Him. John 6:44;"No one can come to me (now here is why) "unless" the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day" There is a condition,"unless" God draws him.
---lisa on 11/30/06

Lisa ... This blog is not about beer drinking.
I am surprised you introduce the subject.
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 11/30/06

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All men start their life as babes, then children. I was just
speaking about children to Billy. If I were to ship a child
of mine to India at a very young age there is a big chance
he will grow to believe in Hinduism. Children need to be
taught. We all start like that.
---Nana on 11/30/06

Here is a verse that speaks contrary to "total inability":
Jeremiah 19:15: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring
upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because
they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words."
On this blog on 11/26/06 I posted another one.
---Nana on 11/30/06

Lisa ... It is not I who has prevented yuor reply being posted.
Now even when you do manage to get one posted, you still do not answer my question.
I just ask, how do yuo reconcile that passage with yuor claim that we have no choice in deciding whether to receive Jesus.
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 11/30/06

helen "Maybe this one will get through so you can get my point"
Yes ... I am getting the point ... You either do not wish or are unable to answer my question.
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 11/30/06

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I don't know what you are talking about concerning James and lisa. I have answered Alan before and he didn't like me to tell him that Christians should not drink in public. I had enough with that blog. I am trying to avoid a problem with him. He doesn't have to agree with me about Christian behavior. A Christian is no different in any part of the world. He is separated from the world. All the beer drinking friends come forward when someone critizes their behavior. I stop doing that and have moved on.
---lisa on 11/30/06

1) Billy; I am doing fine, thanks.
Ephesians 1 is an excellent scripture about predestination and about God's
will as pertaining to us. I would not have to seek another book to address
1:11 for a meaning to "after the counsel of his own will:" What is that counsel?
Even before the world was made, Man was quickening in God. God knew
what he was to create even before the world. We were to be created in his
image and for Good. That was and is God's will towards Man. See:
---Nana on 11/30/06

Ephesians 1:4: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:6: "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath
made us accepted in the beloved.".
---Nana on 11/30/06

I call your attention to the word "children" in verse 1:5. That was the destiny
of Man that God PreConceived, Predestined even before he made him. Paul
mentions Jesus, and I ask your forgiveness in that I will allow myself to seek
Jesus in Scripture for a witness of what I said. Matthew 7:9: "Or what man is
there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?"
---Nana on 11/30/06

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Matthew 7:10: "Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?" How
appropiate "serpent"! Parents take great care in that their children be
safe and unharmed. They cover the electrical outlets, place knifes out
of the kids reach, etc. When God created Man he made him Good.
He had the knowledge of Good and Evil but kept that knowledge
from his child as any a good parent would.
---Nana on 11/30/06

Proverbs 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou
beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Beating the child is not an
end in itself but a means to an end which is Life. Well Billy, may God
the Father give you even more wisdom and understanding.
---Nana on 11/30/06

"The Scriptures are for the believer to read and understand.
The unbelieve cannot discern God's Word." The Scriptures
are for the whole of mankind to read, to hear and to ponder.
As for understanding and discernment, those come to a
man in due time.
---Nana on 11/30/06

lisa, you said James and Lisa deserve one another; and you don't care what Alan believes. That's what I've picked up from the 1000's of answers you have posted.
---Mudflap on 11/29/06

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Alan, I have responded to you six times. I have not seen one posted. I do not wish to get into any questions with you ever again. I learned my lesson. Maybe this one will get through so you can get my point. It does not matter to me what your believes are as a Christian, as you say, you have a free will.
---lisa on 11/29/06

Nana, to the #1 post you put down it is correct. "The Lord is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeks Him" That passage is very true indeed. The believers are the one's that wait for Him and seek Him. The unbelievers do not seek God. They do not even know God, why would they wait? You want the passage to speak to them too but it doesn't. The Scriptures are for the believer to read and understand. The unbelieve cannot discern God's Word.
---lisa on 11/29/06

(1). Nana, How are you doing, I just want to comment on what Gods will is also.

Eph. 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What ever has happened since creation, hasnt deviated from Gods will or plan in the least. If there are scriptures that say God has changed His mind, or that God doesnt afflict willingly, we need to understand what God is trying to say.
---Billy on 11/29/06

2. If you read Lamentations 3 from the beginning you will see what God is doing to Jeremiah. His distress in such tragedy comes from God. Even the righteous experience he is having from the wrath of God throughout the whole section. "His (God's) compassion fail not" even as bleak as the situation of judgment had become, God's covenant lovingkindness was always present. verse 23 "Great is Your faithfulness" The bedrock of faith is the reality that God keeps all His promises according
---lisa on 11/29/06

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3. to His truthful, always endured so that Judah would not be destroyed forever,(Mal. 3:6). In 3:33-47 God had a just basis for judgment. The solution for Judah's judgment was to repent, looking to God for relief and restoration. God judged their sin righteously.
---lisa on 11/29/06

(2). Nana, So if God works all things after the counsel of his own will, but yet when he afflicts, He does this against His own will, What is God trying to tell us? Has He let the things going on in this world go to his head? NO NO NO, God doesnt get bent out of shape like we do. For God to be absolute truth, Gods will can not be compromised even if scripture says that God does not afflict willingly, as if God is doing something against His own will.
---Billy on 11/29/06

(3). Nana, If scripture says God doesnt afflict willingly, this has to be a relative, not an absolute statement in scripture. So why would God us something in a relative since? When scripture says God doesnt afflict willingly, God is showing man how sinfull he is and the unwillingness of God shows us how bad our situation has become. In Gods absolute since, His will is never compromised, but in a relative since, God speaks to us to reveal to us our sins. God bless
---Billy on 11/29/06

God does as he Will for sure and I believe that, however it must be cleared as to
what is God's will. The will of God and the will of Jesus Christ are one and the
same. The following collection of verses is pretty much from the same chapters
that Billy got the verses he posted. Wouldn't you all agree these show more
clearly what is God's Will and Sovereignty?
Lamentations 3:25: "The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him."
---Nana on 11/29/06

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Lamentations 3:33: "For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men."
Isaiah 45:21: "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time?
have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me;
a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."
---Nana on 11/29/06

Daniel 4:37: "Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase."
Amos 3:10: "For they know not to do right, saith the LORD, who store up violence and robbery
in their palaces."
---Nana on 11/29/06

Jerry: Free choice and predestination are mutually exclusive concepts. You are attempting to merge them. It will never work.

Alan: I see we fianlly agree on something.
---jerry6593 on 11/29/06

Philippians 1:29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Lisa, This is what we have been predestined for. This is what the Church has been called out for. If you believe you were predestined, are you also evidence of that calling?
---kathr4453 on 11/28/06

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Lisa ... this is now the fifth time I have asked this question:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God"
Can you please explain how one can receive something without making a choice to do so?
I begin to think you have no answer.
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 11/28/06

(1). Jerry 6593,

Every thing thats ever happened or ever will happen is Gods hand at work, weather its good or bad.

Lam. 3:37-39 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? [38] Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth? [39] Why should any living mortal, or any man, offer complaint in view of his sins?

Isa. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
---Billy on 11/28/06

(2). Jerry 6593

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
---Billy on 11/28/06

(3). Jerry 6593,

Just because God intentionally creates some of us to rebel against Him by sinning, doesnt make God an evil partner with Satan. Jerry, God will do all of His pleasure and none can ask God why do you do what you do. I hope some of these scriptures help you see that even though God created evil and uses evil as He sees fit doesnt make God evil. God bless
---Billy on 11/28/06

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Confused, I don't think so... God gave us free will to choose, he did not make us into robots. Problem with free will is people make bad choices. With that free, we have to make a choice. God has predestined that choosing not to follow Christ, you go to Hell, but if you choose to follow Christ, your predestined to go into glory with Christ.
---Jerry on 11/28/06

Jerry, what you said is not true. You can never make God equal to Satan. Satan is a created being. God is Sovereign and Holy, and what He does whether it be what you like or not is His decision to make for a purpose that only He knows. If you do not believe that God is sovereign to do what He wants, you make God in your own image. He even allowed an evil lying spirit to do His work, and Satan though running things in the world, he is doing it with the permission of God.
---lisa on 11/28/06

2. When God is ready to do away with sin, it will happen, only when He desires to do so. While you cannot see God as making some to be lost, just look at the world that is never going to receive the gospel. All of them will be lost. God allows us to be born and He takes our life's when He desires. All are condemned already, and it takes a Holy God to save them. He knows who they are and how many there will be. He distroys nations with women and children included. Anything less is not the God of the Bible.
---lisa on 11/28/06

People are born, with God's permission, enslaved to sinned. By one mans disobedience all men is fallen. You didn't ask for it but you got it. Condemned already from birth. Now if that is not out of your will, what is? You didn't ask to be born that way, but no matter what you say, you are born that way. enslaved to sinnned and sentenced already. You can have all the free choice you want, but it will not remove the bondage you are in, unless God comes into your heart and removes them.
---lisa on 11/28/06

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God offers salvation for all, but not powerlessly on behalf of man, but each person of their own volition has the power to choose for themself which path of life they are going to follow, either the salvation from God or else the sin from man. If any desire the salvation from God, then they must Not harden their heart against him and they must sacrifice their own life for his. The only way to salvation is through turning to God and asking Jesus to save us.
---Eloy on 11/28/06

lisa, "Whoever for grace to be saved on account of which faith, and this not from you, God's gift; not from work, that not somebody might boast. For his doing to be created in Christ Jesus, onto good works, which God who before prepared, that in them we should walk." Ephesians 2:8,9, and 10. We are created for what? he says, "Good Works". And we should walk in what? again he says, "Good Works".
---Eloy on 11/28/06

Billy & Jerry: You confuse predestination with foreknowledge. Just because God knows the future, it dosen't mean He wants it that way. Besides, if you assert that God intentionally created some of us to rebel against Him by sinning, then you make God an evil partner with Satan. That can't be!
---jerry6593 on 11/28/06

No one can come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit gives them life and enables the person to see and hear God. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God-not because of works, lest any man should boast" When a person is brought to life, He is given faith to believe in Him, " For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not (only believe in Him) but also suffer for His sake."
---lisa on 11/28/06

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2. Once a person makes the commitment to Christ God grants the person the ability to repent when the Holy Spirit convicts the person of the wrong his done against a holy God. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." This verse explains that everyone that is lost is captured by the devil to do his will, and it takes for God to give us faith to know the Truth
---lisa on 11/28/06

3. that they didn't know while they were lost. Faith and repentance are divine gifts and are brought in the soul through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Men by himself will never come to Christ unless God first comes to him and gives him life. Otherwise he remains in the hands of the devil doing the desires of the devil. No one seeks God. Scriptures I put down are, Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:25,26. Check it for yourself.
---lisa on 11/28/06

4. The passage I put down But as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God' That passage is talking about those that did receive Him are now children of God. It also means that those that didn't are not. They made the choice only because God enabled them to make that choice because their choice was not free to began with, they were enslaved to sin and doing the desires of the devil. Without a supernatural act of God, they would continue their path.
---lisa on 11/28/06

Jerry, The truth of the matter is that Adam and Eve were never strong enough to resist the temptation to sin. Jerry,I wonder if you could have done a better job than Adam? Maybe if it was you there instead of Adam, we wouldnt be in the mess were in right now. Either way, Just because you choose free choice, doesnt make it the truth either. God bless.
---Billy on 11/27/06

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All of man kind is PREDESTINED, whether it is to die and go to hell, or die and be with the LORD. Bottom line is we will all die in the FLESH. Then where we go from there depends on if you excepted Christ as your personal saviour and excepted what he did for you. Yes, this was determined before the foundation of the world.
---Jerry on 11/27/06

Billy: So? The issue is whether or not they had the power to resist disobedience. Did they, of their own free choice, decide to disobey God, or did God specifically create them to disobey? I freely choose free choice.
---jerry6593 on 11/27/06

That God had and has a purpose for his creation is about all
that I believe about predestination. Our destiny is and will
be by the fruits of our Love. Remember (out of the fullness
of the heart"? It is a very sick view of our brother that we
only see filth in him, even if we include orselves in the
---Nana on 11/26/06

Who don't see the things of God is either because ignorance or
malice and hypocresy. Jesus made that quite clear:
Matthew 16:3: "And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day:
for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the
face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"

Why would Jesus call a one incapable of "discern the signs of the times";
a hypocrite if that Man was incapable of discerning?
---Nana on 11/26/06

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Jerry, who gave this tree its name? I believe God did. So didnt the tree of knowledge of good and evil contain this knowledge or not? After all God did plant this tree and said that it was pleasant to the sight, and good for food. So there was a knowledge that could be possessed by eating this tree. Satan used half truth to decieve Eve. The lie was that she wouldnt die. So why dont you tell me if God lied when he said Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
---Billy on 11/26/06

Lisa ... Can you not answer my question, which is now for the third or fourth time of asking?
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God"
Can you please explain how one can receive something without making a choice to do so?
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 11/26/06

Emcee, I do not wish to enter either into a decussion with you. I have found it hopeless since you bring Mary, your church, their teachings, and don't even believe in God's Word been final authority. Your church is final, so it is hopless to expect anything else from you. I sure don't expect for you to run to your computer this morning and say, Lisa, you are correct. Never have an never will expect that. All I can do is give you God's Word. What you do with it is up to you. Blessings on the Sunday,
---lisa on 11/26/06

Billy: You said "it wasnt about free will choice, but obtaining a knowledge of both good and evil to become more like God." Do you realize that you are quoting Satan? That was part of the first lie recorded in the Bible. The tree was a simple test of obedience to God, a matter of free choice. They chose, and sin entered the world.
---jerry6593 on 11/26/06

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Lisa ... your quote from scripture: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God"
Can you please explain how one can receive something without making a choice to do so?
---AlanUK_quent5969 on 11/25/06

no they/some christians are derranged and . just read the blogs on this site. they claim they all are christians but read how they describe each other. some are even so rude as to call one names...I willnever want to be one of them...
---sam on 11/25/06

Lisa:I do not wish to enter into a long & useless debate .To me it is as clear as the shining sun.If you have strayed? The alternative is to RETURN that is each persons priority.I cannot point fingers,each makes his/her decision.Jesus is clear on that when he instituted the Holy Eucharist.God does not change PEOPLE MUST.all your quotes do not allude to the question on hand.One flock One may malign my understanding I know I am on the right trackMat16;17-19
---Emcee on 11/25/06

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