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Salvation Without Baptism

I read recently that someone said that "without baptism we are only partially saved. Baptism completes our salvation." What do you think of that statement? If true, none of the Salvation Army have received complete salvation.

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The scripture is very clear, Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
---Jim on 6/28/09

Jesus set an example. The apostles performed them. If it were not necessary, why did Jesus receive it. Why did the apostles perform it? Baptism will most likely get you into heaven at the first resurrection, the time God is looking for the creme of the Christian crop. All the other "Christians" will most likely be resurrected at the second resurrection. So, how well do you obey?

As for the Salvation Army, they are people.
---Steveng on 12/16/07

Besides, what harm is it to get baptised just in case you are wrong about baptism. It's better to be safe than sorry, eh?
---Steveng on 12/16/07

That statement is false.Baptism in Jesus' name washes our sins away, but does not save us.It IS essential for salvation though.Read St.Mark 16:16.
---donald on 12/15/07

Was the thief on the cross with Jesus saved.
Jesus said to him{thief}this day thy shall be with me in paradise.

---LIONEL on 12/14/07

No sir, These people are trying to take the Blood out of Salvation. You can be saved and still go to Heaven without water baptism. It is just that the Person of the Holy Spirit, well, He will lead you into water baptism. There is no such thing as partially saved. Or a little bit saved or whatever.
---catherine on 12/14/07

I agree, one is not saved without batizm. Word backs it up.Even though people mention Cornelius and the Gentiles to make a biblical point, so in the same matter, I can say I am going to start killing Jesus's church to be made an instrument of Christ, and what have you.
---Nick on 12/14/07

If someone did what Romans 10:9-10 says & 2-seconds later the church is caught up, would that person or other folks who haven't been baptized get left behind? No, because they are saved according to Romans 10:9.
---Rickey on 11/11/07

In 1 Peter 3:21 the word save comes from the Greek word sozo and appears here in the present tense. The word used in 1 Peter 3:21 is the same word that appears in Romans 10:9; however, sozo here is in the future tense. The point of 1 Peter 3:21 is to underscore the importance, both symbolic and practical, of baptism.
---David on 3/13/07

The word sozo means: 1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction a) one (from injury or peril) 1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health 1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue b) to save in the technical biblical sense 1) negatively a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
---David on 3/13/07

There is nothing from the context of Romans 10 or the Greek to indicate immediate salvation upon confession of Jesus Christ as Lord. This is the opening to Him that knocks at the door of our hearts. In fact Romans 8:9 shows us that if we do not have the Spirit of God inside us we are none of His. What remains is that Biblical pattern for salvation presented throughout the book of Acts. Repentance, water baptism, Holy Ghost baptism. The last 2 not neccessarily in that order.
---David on 3/13/07

After the gentiles in Acts 10 they were baptized. Because Baptism sozo. Not that baptism is salvation, but that it is the response to Gods grace and faith in Him. James shows us that true faith is characterized by action. It is a part of Gods plan for salvation. If the gentiles in Acts 10 had refused baptism on the basis that it was only symbolic, they would have placed themselves in danger of judgment.
---David on 3/13/07

I see where you are coming from now. I partially agree. Salvation aside from water baptism includes eternal life.

Baptism is for believers after they recieve salvation. In Act 10 when Peter preached they got saved & filled w/ the Holy Spirit before water baptism showing that water baptism isn't a part of a person's redemption.

Salvation is 3-fold, past(Romans 10:9-10), present(Philippians 2:12); future (2Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 21:2)
---Rickey on 3/9/07

No one said anything about being partially saved. You assume based on how Romans has been misconstrued that salvation begins when you ask Jesus to come into your heart, Again that is the beginning of the process not the end. Every time anyone Jew or Gentile is converted they Repent after believing, they are Baptized in water and filled with the Spirit of God.
---David on 3/8/07

The entire point is that there is a difference between you shall be saved and you are saved. If one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes yet CHOOSES to live in rebellion by REFUSING to be baptized even though it is commanded, one may claim to be a Christian all they want but 1 John 2:3-4 calls them a liar and as James declares their faith is dead because they do not works of faith in obedience
---David on 3/8/07

You seem convinced of my being wrong. Prove your doctrine through Biblical example. I reiterate my challenge a seventh time. Please find a specific Biblical historical instance (chapter and verse) where someone only confessed, believed and nothing more. If your doctrine is correct this should be an easy one. And remember were talking New Covenant which means after Jesus resurrection and Pentecost. Because before that the penalty for sin had not been paid.
---David on 3/8/07

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Sorry for doubling that last one. What I meant was Before Jesus' death the penalty for sin had not been paid
---David on 3/8/07

I'm glad that you pointed out Hebrews. It shows clearly that the only thing that has paid for our salvation is the blood of Jesus.

Because of His finished work we have salvation through faith, not works.
Our works/righteousness are as filthy rags.(Isaiah 64:6)
---Rickey on 3/8/07

Baptism is not for unbelievers, but for believers. If a person, as you're saying, isn't fully saved until they get baptized then it does them no good to get baptized.
Jesus put the emphasis on the believer & nonbeliever, not baptized & unbaptized.

In Mark 16:17, Jesus didn't say those signs would follow those who 'believe and are baptized'; He said those who believe.

Our salvation is through faith, not dead works. Baptism to obtain righteousness/salvation is a dead work.
---Rickey on 3/8/07

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

13 For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.
---Rickey on 3/8/07

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There is no such thing as salvation without submission to God and obedience to His Word. You keep arguing that we dont have to be baptized. That is effect in saying we dont have to obey Gods Word. That is dangerous territory. If that is the case how can one stand against abortion, murder, prostitution, adultery, fornication, witchcraft etc. Ephesians 5 and Galatians 5 show us that we must do and not do certain things to be in right standing with God.
---David on 3/7/07

Hebrews 10:6 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1: John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
---David on 3/7/07

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And - used as a function word to indicate connection or addition especially of items within the same class or type used to join sentence elements of the same grammatical rank or function Websters online

And is the Greek word kai meaning and, also, even, indeed, but. Strongs lexicon
---David on 3/7/07

In Acts 5 when Paul got converted he was saved the moment that he confessed Jesus as Lord.

Salvation is completed the moment you confess Jesus as Lord.(Romans 10:9-10)

If it wasn't then none of the folks in the book of Acts could've recieved the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

No one should get hung on believing that water baptism is required for salvation because it isn't scriptural.
---Rickey on 3/7/07

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It is about obedience. To obey or not to obey. Remember Naaman? Remember Noah? Remember the Red Sea? Remember Elijah on Mt Carmel? (1 Kings 18) The stones represent the 12 tribes, reconstructing the altar represents repentance, the water represents washing in baptismal waters (one barrel per stone), the fire represents the Spirit of the Lord. The washing is symbolic but it is also mandatory.
---David on 3/7/07

For God so loved the world, he gave his only
begotten son, that whosoever should believe on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. {if he is baptized}
i think not...
---jim on 3/7/07

I understand what you are saying about the water, but you are missing my point. No one has said salvation comes through faith in the water. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. Obedience is still required. That obedience is the answer of a good conscience. Baptism is commanded. Refusing to be baptized as some do because others tell them they dont have to be, is disobedience. If we know Him we will be obedient. If we disobey we lie about knowing Him. 1 John 2:3-4.
---David on 3/7/07

Why is it so difficult to think that God might expect something from us? After all that is the concept behind obedience. If obedience is optional, then we have freedom to do anything we wish. However, if obedience is required then there are things God expects and we must do them. God commands you to worship Him only, to not murder, to not commit adultery, etc. Disobeying these commands places your salvation in jeopardy. Why do people feel comfortable disobeying the command to be baptized?
---David on 3/7/07

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I reiterate my challenge a SIXTH time. Please find a specific Biblical historical instance (chapter and verse) where someone only confessed, believed and nothing more. If your doctrine is correct this should be an easy one. I am asking someone to show by historical scriptural example one person after Jesus' resurrection and the outpouring of the Spirit. who only believed and nothing more.
---David on 3/7/07

There is no such thing as being partially saved.
Matthew 3:13 Jesus was Baptised. Jesus is the Son of God. It is a public demonstration of your faith. Mark 1:4 states it is a pennenace of forgiveness of sins. Luke 12:50 being distressed over baptism.
Baptism represents death of old self burial and resurrection of new self.
Why wouldn't anyone want to be Baptised. You only need to be Baptised once.
---Lloyd on 3/7/07

In the context of 1Peter 3:21 emphasis wasn't placed on the water. Our salvation cannot be obtained by works. Baptism has nothing to do with being saved.(1Peter 1:23)

Just like in the OT they gave sacrifices to cover their sins, in the NT Jesus finished it so that we wouldn't have to.

In Mark 16:16 He wasn't putting the emphasis on & making baptism a requirement for salvation. All He put the emphasis on was a person believing or not.

Water baptism w/o recieving salvation does no good.
---Rickey on 3/7/07

In John 3:3-7 Jesus put no emphasis on water baptism for salvation. Neither did Paul in Romans 10:9-10 and 1Corinthian 1.

In John 3 Jesus said "born-again" which actually means " born from above ". Nothing here on earth can do what Jesus did.

If water baptism was required then God would also have to be the father of all flesh, but He is the Father of spirits(Hebrews 12:9)
---Rickey on 3/7/07

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The bible says we have the "gift" of righteousness. When you get a gift you don't have to pay for it. Same w/ salvation & righteousness, we don't have to work to obtain it.(Romans 5:17-18; 2Corinthians 5:21)
---Rickey on 3/7/07

Mercedes:: Do you have a chapter & verse to justify your statement,Matt28; 18-20 says different
---Emcee on 3/6/07

Read Acts 2:38 2:40-1 The Apostles doctrine came right from the Master himself

Oh by the way I hope you own a sword to read this out of rather than a "garden tool" which I have heard the niv and others called.
---MARK on 3/6/07

It is not heresy to realize that there are two types of works. Works of the flesh as Paul indicates and Works of faith as James indicates. Jesus said, except ye repent ye shall likewise perish. No repentance, No salvation. John 2:3-4. Galatians 5, Ephesians 5, Hebrews 5 and 6. Repentance in and of itself is an action required for salvation. Baptism is more than merely a symbol it is an ordinance and we are commanded to do it. (Mark 16:16 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38)
---David on 3/6/07

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When we begin to look at Biblical doctrines it is important to remember that in addition to seeing the instruction or the concept articulated. You will see the concept being played out in historical evidence in scripture. You cannot form doctrines on anecdotal evidence or just because a preacher (or many preachers) said so. Romans does not exist alone but together with the whole of scripture.Look at what Jesus and the apostles SAID and then look at they DID. Then put it together.
---David on 3/6/07

I reiterate my challenge a FIFTH time. Please find a specific Biblical historical instance (chapter and verse) where someone only confessed, believed and nothing more. If your doctrine is correct this should be an easy one.
---David on 3/6/07

That statement is near heresy. If there was any outward ordinances that needed to be performed then Jesus told a lie to the thief on the cross. Baptism is a symbol (a meaningful one) that shows that we have entered into life among the community of believers. It is a sign of obedience but without the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is provided by Christ when we believe,and confess that He is lord then all baptism is is getting wet.
---Jared on 3/6/07

Cynthia, the reason Paul was not baptizing and only preaching was because the Gentiles were not allowed to be baptized at that time. Paul prepared them to accept Christ's doctrine by preaching first. Then Peter received revelation from God that it was time that they could enter the baptismal covenant along with the Jews.
---Mercedes on 3/6/07

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m,p.a.::Regardless of what others have said about Baptism = salvation,Jesus's words were "follow me" He was baptised not because He had to; NO, because this was one of the requirements to make us His followers,His christians. Baptism does 2 things 1.removes the stain of all sin introduces us to Gods kingdom& fills us with the gifts of the Holy spirit Called Theological Virtues Faith,Hope & Charity.its to start you on the road to Christ that is it.The starting point of your road to salvation.
---Emcee on 3/6/07

Paul was thankful that he had not emphasized or practiced baptism v14, Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel v17, Baptism is not essential to salvation from sin v17-24, It is merely a symbol of that salvation 1 Peter 3:21, Christ saves men before and without water baptism. v 17-21 PART 3
---Cynthia_1 on 3/6/07

Well put Catherine. And it even further illustrates the point that there is more to salvation than just believing. The Bible declares in James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Believing is just the beginning. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
---David on 3/6/07

Ann. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, WHOSOEVER, beleiveth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ROMANS 10
---Cynthia_1 on 3/6/07

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David, I agree with what you're saying concerning baptism in Jesus Name. But I also disagree. I was wrong about it being for only Jews, thanks for pointing that out.

As far as 1 Peter 3:21, it doesn't show that baptism is a must for salvation, but for a good conscience.
---Rickey on 3/6/07

As far as salvation is concerned, water baptism isn't required. If it was then Jesus did something wrong in Acts when He baptized folks in the Holy Spirit before they got baptized in water.

Water baptism is an outward showing of inward change. It can't make you more saved.
Neither is a requirement for salvation. Romans 10:9-10 & John 3:3-7.

This is a good topic though. It makes folks think twice about what they've been taught & to search the scriptures for themselves.
---Rickey on 3/6/07

Now this I say, that eveyone of you saith, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, And I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for YOU? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius, Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. Part 1
---Cynthia_1 on 3/6/07

And I baptized also the household of Stephanas besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL, NOT WITH WISDOM OF WORDS, LEST THE CROSS OF CHRIST SHOULD BE MADE OF NONE EFFECT. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1.....PART 2
---Cynthia_1 on 3/6/07

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---catherine; I have a question for you about repentance. Did Jesus offer the woman at the well everlasting life( salvation) before he mentioned her sins? Did she ever repent of her sins in order to receive salvation?
---Mima on 3/6/07

ann, if you truly believe that you can get to heaven without repentance, you must be so good. I had to get forgiveness before Jesus saved me. You will die and go to HELL, if you die unforgiven of all of your sins.
---catherine on 3/6/07

Many people beleive that, but it is not true, then how come Jesus gave immediate salvation to the thief that was crucified with him that day on the cross, he had no time to get baptized. But Jesus turned to him and said, this day you will be with me in paradise.
---Cynthia_1 on 3/6/07

we are saved by grace through faith so it is not needed to be baptisted to be saved but baptism is some kind declaration and proclamation for the world that we are saved and we have given your life to God that we are not ashamed of Him. If Jesus was baptised and we are to follow Him the nwe should do it the same..
---Kasia on 3/6/07

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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him Verily, Verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, how can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born again? 5 Jesus answered, Verily Verily, I say unto thee Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
---Loretta on 3/6/07

Jesus is a mediator of one. You cannot make a duallity of the father and the son. Jesus is to recieve all rule power and authority. All judgement has been given to him. Any build a doctrine that cuts off the son will recieve the wrath of God. He is comeing in flameing fire takeing vengeance on those who know not God and obey not t.g.o. Jesus C. Rom. 1-20 you may know him and not like a trinity you cannot know untill heaven.Evangelist Rick Brandt 1st pet. 3-21
---rick on 3/6/07

The linguistic argument is your opinion based on your tradition. I personally know one grammar scholar who disagrees with your assessment entirely. There are countless others. The fact remains that Father Son and Holy Ghost are titles and no one INCLUDING GENTILES was ever baptized that way. As for the argument that Jesus Name baptism is for Jews breaking with Jewish traditions, I refer you to Acts Chapter 10. In this instance it is Gentiles being converted.
---David on 3/5/07

The mere fact that something has been done a certain way by a majority of people for many years does not mean that the majority does it correctly. It should be evident to all readers that what MOST of the church does is NOT what the apostles did. In Nehemiah 8 we see a similar situation. Not since the days of Solomon had Gods people done it correctly. Sometimes it takes a small but vocal minority proclaiming the truth to get peoples attention.
---David on 3/5/07

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Romans is the entry point; the beginning, not the destination. One must look at what the whole of scripture says when doing a topical study such as this not merely a select few verses. The verses in Romans have been misinterpreted and misrepresented for a long time. You will never find someones journey into the family of God concluded at faith or easy believeism and nothing more. Faith without works is dead.
---David on 3/5/07

I reiterate my challenge a fourth time. Please find a specific Biblical historical instance (chapter and verse) where someone only confessed, believed and nothing more. If your doctrine is correct this should be an easy one. However, I know that when you examine New Testament in its entirety you will find that every time someone goes through the process of salvation, gentiles included, there is Repentance, water baptism in Jesus Name and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
---David on 3/5/07

There are two types of works. Works of the flesh as Paul indicates and Works of faith as James indicates. Also, Jesus said, except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish. No repentance, No salvation. John 2:3-4. Galatians 5, Ephesians 5, Hebrews 5 and 6. It is not my opinion thats what the Bible says.
---David on 3/5/07

Repentance and baptism is not what we do for salvation. It is by faith that we believe Jesus did all there is to have eternal life. Repentance and baptism are works and they will not get you into heaven.
---ann on 3/5/07

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Hi David,
Actually I agree with your second blog about receiving Christ and the car accident ect. Nowhere in my comment did I say that you SHOULDN'T become baptized or love others etc as you said.
Yes, there will be many to whom Jesus will say "depart from me, I never knew you." Some of those people will have been baptised without ever truely knowing Jesus. I stand by my original statement. Joyce
---Joyce3688 on 3/5/07

Remember it is the ark that saved Noah when the flood came. Christ is our ark. However baptism signifies the passing of old life in Adam into a new life in Christ. As we except Christ, we get into the ark, and baptism is the symbolism of being carried from the old to the new, as Noah was. As we are baptized, we are declaring we have passed from the old to new through Christ. It is the testimony of a good conscience toward God. It is expressing our faith in what Christ has done for us.
---Rickey on 3/5/07

In the latter half of our verse, there are three prepositional phrases: 1) of the Father, 2) of the Son, and 3) of the Holy Ghost. The parallel structure allows the noun "name" to refer to all of the succeeding prepositional phrases. Therefore our verse would mean exactly the same thing if it were written the following way:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Ghost."
---Rickey on 3/5/07

There is no difference between the actual wording of Matthew 28:19 and the above illustration. If I were to ask you to take your Sunday School attendance sheet and give me the name of the teacher, the secretary and the substitute you would not think for a moment that I was speaking of just one name. It would be clear that I wanted three names, even though I used the word "name" in singular form.
---Rickey on 3/5/07

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We are told the bad times in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Ghost one time in the Bible. When the book of acts were baptized just in the name of Jesus nine times. Scholars generally believe this is because the Jewish people were the ones being baptized. And being bad guys in and the Jesus showed that it clearly broke from Jewish roots.
---Mima on 3/5/07

Rickey; Yes it does matter. Jesus said go and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Mat 28:19. I take it you don't believe in the Trinity?
---Rebecca_D on 3/5/07

You can give me many names for the Father, You can give a name for the Son, but you cannot give me a name for the Holy Ghost. My dad was a father, he was also a son, yet neither of those were his name. And again, the word name is singular in Matthew 28:19. If you cross reference with Acts 4:12 (and every other baptismal scripture in the New testament) you will see that there is ONE name. The apostles followed Jesus command exactly.
---David on 3/5/07

I have already posted 1 Peter 3:21 which speaks for itself. 1 John 2:3-4 says, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is the Word of God, not my opinion. The point is obedience is required of ALL believers. If one chooses disobedience over Christ, ones relationship with God and salvation are jeopardized.
---David on 3/5/07

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It doesn't matter if you are baptized in Jesus' name or in the name of the Father, the Name of the Son, and the Name of the Holy Ghost. Baptism isn't a requirement for salvation. The "Name" of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit isn't Jesus. They each have a different "name".

If I am addressing Holy Spirit I can't call Him Jesus. It's the same if I am talking to God. His Name isn't Jesus.

But baptism is not a neccessity for salvation, faith is.
---Rickey on 3/5/07

First, Jesus told the thief that He would see paradise BEFORE the New covenant was sealed in Jesus blood. Second, the Holy Ghost (which indwells all who are born again (Romans 8:9)) was not yet come upon mankind. Third, God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart. If someone has repented and desires to obey the Lords commands and dies in a car accident on the way to their baptism I believe that God will honor that and their obedient faith will be accounted unto them for righteousness.
---David on 3/3/07

Please find a specific Biblical historical instance (chapter and verse) where someone only confessed, believed and nothing more. Romans is the entry point; the beginning, not the destination. Salvation comes through faith in Jesus. However, if you choose to live in disobedience to the commands of Christ (such as baptism, love thy neighbor, forgive, etc.) then you sin and do not know Him (1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 5:2-3) Some will hear I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---David on 3/3/07

If water baptism is required for salvation or you will be "damned" as some believe, then why did Jesus tell the theif on the cross that "this day you will join me in paradise?" He obviously was not baptized or even converted until his encounter with Jesus on the cross. The Bible says "If you will confess Jesus Christ with your mouth and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved."
---Joyce3688 on 3/3/07

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Rickey Even the gentiles in the book of Acts were baptized in Jesus' name. This was not isolated to the Jews. I have already cited the appropriate scripture in an earlier verse. Also we are all converts when we come to Jesus. Not one of us enters this world a Christian. We all need to put on Christ (Galatians 3:27) and be buried in the likeness of his death. (Romans 6:3-9)
---David on 3/2/07

Baptism in Jesus' Name was showing that they were converting from Judeoism to Christianity.
---Rickey on 3/2/07

Part 1
It is obvious that only believers are to be baptized. That is not the issue. Nor by obeying the command of Christ are you putting faith in water to save you. Your faith must be in Christ alone. But you cannot disobey His commands and say you know Him. In Matthew 28:19, Mark 16 and Acts 2 the instruction regarding baptism comes after other instructions. The reason being is that you don't baptize non-believers.
---David on 3/2/07

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