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Doctrine Of The Trinity Essential

To be a Christian, don't you have to believe in the Trinity? Isn't it a core doctrine? Then how can some denominations get away with not believing in the Trinity, yet still be considered Christian?

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///Are any such 'mighty men' called the Alpha and the Omega, or the Saviour or the Creator? All these titles shared by God the Father and God the Son.
---Warwick on 7/25/10///
And do any of these 'mighty men' bear-witness of themselves?
Yehovah declared-the End from the beginning..."I will put enmity between thy seed and her Seed"...Gen3:15
Have any of these 'mighty men' words become flesh to perform what they spoke out in 'times past'?
Is 9:6-7 Yehovah is WITNESSING- of Himself-He alone-can[Qdm-Is 45:23].
In Micah He declared where His Words in Flesh will proceed from-Judah
In Matt the child(God with us) witnessed of-is Born into this World.
And in Revelation-the End is given as completed.
---char on 7/26/10

"No person is singled out as the Mighty God(El Gibbowr)" Micha

Yes, Ez 32:21 helps us to appreciate that not one man, but many are referred to as mighty gods ("Chiefs- ESV, RSV- "Leaders" NLT, "Mightiest warriors" God's Word Translation).

"Speak to him do the gods of the mighty..." YNG
---scott on 7/26/10

Thanks Gordon.
---Warwick on 7/25/10

Good points Ernest. Keep it up.
---Warwick on 7/25/10

Scott Isaiah 9:6,7 calls Jesus, the coming Saviour, 'Wonderful, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, eternal, coming King' etc. Are any leaders or men of renown addressed this way? The very idea is riduculous. Chipping around the edges again!

Are any such 'mighty men' called the Alpha and the Omega, or the Saviour or the Creator? All these titles shared by God the Father and God the Son.
---Warwick on 7/25/10

Thanks for your encouragement Mark. I do not know what denomination you attend, and don't care. We are not linked by denomination, but by Scripture. Each year I attend a church in Paris and the preaching is the same as that in my Australian. Not surprizing when you are reading from the same book, even if in a different language.

Christians can use whatever translation they prefer. However the JW's have their own translation, all the rest being not good enough for them. Good enough for the whole of Christendom but not for them. They also teach that their organization is the only way to God.

They are not free but under the control of the Watchtower Society. And we all know what happens to members who contradict it!
---Warwick on 7/25/10

Seed-Word of Yehovah...
IS 55:11 So shall My word be that goeth forth Out of My mouth: it SHALL NOT return unto Me VOID, but IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH that which I please...
When Jesus(Immanuel-God with us)therefore had received the vinegar, He said,"IT IS FINISHED:" He bowed His head-gave up the Spirit.
Is 9:6-7
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government shall be upon His Shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting Father, Prince of Peace Of the INCREASE of[his] government and peace[there shall be]... NO END...
Counselor-Holy Spirit-1 Cor 2,Jn4:24
Father-Mat 6:9-15
Word-God with us-Immanuel-Jn 1:1-15
Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
---char on 7/25/10

Gods' dimension is not of our World-hence-mediator-and a measure of faith to believe.

2 Kings 6:17,Jn 8:23,Jn 18:36,Mat 12:32,Heb 11:3
For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works,but of Him That challeth,) the elder shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
---char on 7/25/10

MarkV, There is a limit to which the Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses dares to alter the Bible.

Already many have felt they went too far and left the Organization as they read their Kingdom Interlinear Translation and saw the contradiction between it and their New World Bible.

Many Witnesses are honest and sincere and I believe a loving and patient God has allowed enough truth to remain in their Bible to reveal the saving truths of the Gospel and of the Tri-une Godhead, (even despite the fact they have removed the word "Godhead")!
---Ernest_1 on 7/26/10

"Remove the passages of Scripture." MarkV

MarkV, since I'm studying with the Witnesses, I'm curious which verses you are referring to? Perhaps I can offer something helpful, perhaps not. With respect, I view most of your derogatory comments about JWs as a theological 'drive-by' or (giving my age away) like the old game of doorbell ditch, where kids ring the bell of their least favorite neighbor and run away.

You often make comments and then refuse to have an actual discussion about it. Maybe you have a valid point, maybe not. But your approach IMHO seems less than honorable...

Gotta go, someones at the door....darn kids.
---scott on 7/26/10

Mike, Trinity is a word coined to express the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God.

Some endeavour to disprove this but their totrured twisted prose, their Scriptural gymnastics evidence the depths they will descend to disprove the obvious.

Genesis 1:26 says the Creator God is plural (i.e. more than 1)"Let us make man in our image..." To call this the plural of majesty is pure conjecture.

In the OT this plural God is clearly the Creator however NT gives this same title to the Lord Jesus.

Likewise the Holy Spirit is a described as having attribures of personhood such as emotions, as Ephesians 4:30 attests-"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God." Even the NWT translation agrees with this.
---Warwick on 7/26/10

No person is singled out as the Mighty God(El Gibbowr) except the reference to Jesus Christ, the Word in Isa 9:6 and the Father in Due 10:17, Neh 9:32, Isa 10:21(interesting), and Jer 32:18.
The Hebrew in Ez 32:21 is plural as stated--eliy gibbowrim.
---micha9344 on 7/26/10

The JW's teach that there is more then one true GOD. They teach that JEHOVAH is GOD, and that JESUS is an angel that is also GOD. But the Bible says there is only one true GOD. The term gods can be applied to many but they are not the one true GOD. So in effect the JW and Mormons are either accepting multiple gods or saying that those who worship JESUS are following a false god.

I will not judge the salvation of another person. But the trinity doctrine is biblical truth.
---Samuel on 7/26/10

Warwick, I found no faults in your answers and do agree with you on the answers you gave as to why the J.W. cannot understand the deity of Christ. When the Witnesses decided to remove the passages of Scripture and put their own words so that the meaning changes Christ deity, and what He did as incarnated, everything changes in their meanings. The problem they have is that they didn't remove every meaning in Scripture concerning Christ, but I believe in the future their bible will be revised again, to make sure those meaning are remove and new words will be added so as to have a different meaning. For now they have two comflicting meanings, one of truth and one of a lie. The longer they believe the lie, the less the truth will be be believed.
---MarkV. on 7/25/10

One thing I must say.
I appreciate the opportuinty to see what is taught to those who are studing with the Jehovah witnesses-or as a Jehovah witness-without having to become a "Jehovah witness".
If we believe Yehovah exist, and can converse amoung each each what we think He is showing us at the moment-we witness for Him.
We are all flesh-and subject to error-so-we praise Him for His mercy and Grace.
You either believe God exist or you don't.
It's the best place to start and then find an agreement without condenming.-The advesary is already working on that one-lets' not give him victory.
And yes the Word(Christ) will divide-truth from lies-but(Yehovah)who is love can unit the brethren-by and through His Spirit.
---char on 7/25/10

The bible does not teach the trinity,. It teaches God,His Word(Yeshua)and The Spirit which is His breath.
---mike88874 on 7/25/10

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Warwick, I apologize to you, I totally misunderstood. I see where you're at. You're definitely on the Right Track! :-)
---Gordon on 7/24/10

Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6 (1) Christopher

This same Hebrew language (el gibbor) is applied to human warriors as well and, of course, this would not make them equal in any way to the Almighty.

"The mighty chiefs (el gibbor) (the gods of the mighty - YNG) shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol..." Ez 32:21 ESV

"Mighty chiefs is the plural of the Messianic title, Mighty God given the child in Isa 9:6 (M[asoretic (Jewish scribal)] T[ext] v[erse]5) and could be rendered mighty gods just as correctly." The New Century Bible, New Series

In addition, while this title is applied to the Father, Son and mighty men it is never applied to the Holy Spirit.
---scott on 7/24/10

Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6 (2) Christopher

El (God) has a broad range of meanings. We see this in the Brown, Driver and Briggs - A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, page 42.

In addition to the Father and Son this title is-

"...applied to men of might and rank...mighty heroes Ez 32:21...mighty hero (as above) or divine hero (as respecting the divine majesty Is 95... angels ...[Ps. 29:1 89:7}. In various translations this phrase is rendered as a divine hero, (Moffatt), God Hero, (New American Bible), in battle God-like, (New English Bible), and Divine Champion, (Byington)."
---scott on 7/24/10

Is Warwick's problem on of modalism?

"Modalism is an idea the arose during the 3rd century which says most prominently that there is only one God, but that this God represents himself in different ways, or "modes." Among the modes that modalists would point to would be the biblical Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. In the modalist understanding, each of these three personages of God is merely a manifestation of one God working himself out in different ways, but with no distinction between the different roles of these identities of the Godhead. "
---leej on 7/24/10

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Father is Greater--He is the ONE Who has spoken/swore by His OWN words.Yehovah bears witness of Himself. Yeshua-the Actural Word in flesh.
Is 45:23
The Word became flesh Jn1:1-God Word-within Him. He spoke,they proceed out and will not return TO HIM void. This why When Jesus[Yeshua-Yehovah saves]speaks He states "the words that I speak are not mine own"
Jn 14:10-Jn 6:63Believest thou not that[I AM IN] the Father, and the Father IN ME? the words that [I]speak unto you I speak not of MYSELF,but the Father That dwelleth IN ME, [he]doeth the works

Secret?-Hidden from blind-The word of God-Jesus Christ-In Flesh-Immanuel,God with us.Is 9:6
---char on 7/24/10

///I do not believe this can happen with AlmightyGod Jehovah, who is always glorified. (Jo.11:40, 12:43, 17:5) Jesus did not share the same glory as his Father.///

David, Almighty God is not limited-hence-Almighty.(Jn 17:5-6)
The only limits placed on Yehovah are from man and satan.
All souls belong to Yehovah(Ez 18:4)and yet some don't even believe he exist.
Immanuel-God with us,Yeshua-the Word of Yehovah in flesh-declares...Mat 19:26
But Jesus beheld [them] and said unto them "With men this is impossible, but with Yehovah All Things are possible"
God swore of Himself-with His Word.
Is 45:23
Is 55:6-11
Is 45:15 Verily [thou] art a God That HIDEST Thyself...2 Cor 4:6,Jn 14:9,Col 1:15,Jn 14:9,Mat 6:24
---char on 7/24/10

The Bible calls the SON and the FATHER, both "MIGHTY" God and "ALMIGHTY".

MIGHTY God = the Son in Isaiah 9:6, but LORD/YAHWEH/JEHOVAH in Jeremiah 32:18.

ALMIGHTY: Revelation 1:8 (New World) "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." Now compare Revelation 22:12-13 (New World) "'Look! I am coming quickly and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Isaiah 44:6(NW) portrays two JEHOVAHS speaking as one in unity claiming to be the first and the last, "Besides me there is no God"
---Ernest1 on 7/24/10

David you and Scott et all chip around the edges, endeavouring to confuse, hoping to lead the unknowing away from the real Christ, the Saviour, Redeemmer and Creator. You major on the minors ignoring the flow of Scripture which ably demonstrates your error. Different to we Christians you are not a 'free agent' but are akin to politicians who must toe the party line or be dismissed. We Christians are 'free agents', not locked into denominational constraints but free to read Scripture under the guidance of God the Holy Spirit. We know, and you know, that if you oppose the teaching of the watchtower you will be disfellowshipped.
---Warwick on 7/25/10

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Modality is not a way to defend the tri-unity at all. Modality considers one God in three ice for example...three forms of the same substance depending on temperature. This denies the existence of three separate persons.

Trinitarianism falls short because it insists on three persons of God. God (the Father) and God (the Holy Spirit) were never in the flesh. In the flesh was only God (Jesus Christ). So, there are three beings in the Deity not three persons.

My guess is that the orthodox way of viewing godliness (trinity) is best because it is the easiest way to argue with tri-unity.

The argument is really about the deity of Jesus Christ (ie...only 'a perfect man') and the existence of the Holy Spirit.
---aka.joseph on 7/25/10

Gordon I cannot see what I have written which elicited your response. However I apologize if I have somehow lead you astray.

I do believe the Bible promotes the Trinity of three 'person's in the one God. It shows the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

I believe the JW's problem is that in rejecting the Holy Spirit's personhood they cut themselves off from the relationship with Him that we share , that which illuminates our limited, darkened, thinking. He sheds necessary light upon the essence and the nature of God. They try to comprehend God and His essence through human reasoning. This obviously does not work.
---Warwick on 7/23/10

//... 'elowahh is the plural of 'elohiym.../---aka.joseph on 7/23/10

oops...'elohiym is the plural of 'elowahh.
---aka.joseph on 7/23/10

Mark Eaton- I agree Jesus as you say, laid down his glory to become human.

But I do not believe this can happen with AlmightyGod Jehovah, who is always glorified. (Jo.11:40, 12:43, 17:5) Jesus did not share the same glory as his Father.

Jesus Christ shows 'godly devotion' to God. Not that God shows godly devotion to himself.

Thus it is Jesus Christ who Paul is referring to when he says, 'He was made manifest in the flesh', and not AlmightyGod. The 'sacred secret' is that Jesus (the 'last Adam') proved that a perfect man can be devoted to God to the point of death.

So the "He was..." (of 1 Tim.3:16) is not God, but the man Jesus Christ who 'was received up in glory' by his Father, AlmightyGod (Jehovah).
---David8318 on 7/23/10

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Why can't people just have the freedom to love and learn of God-by God? Why is it people have to be placed in a catagory-based on what the Holy Spirit is revealing to them at the moment?
Why can't the fact that no one knows everything(as proven so many times on these blogs) and God knows it-still loves and is Teaching-be good enough.
Wouldn't that be trusting God?
Is is possible to find an agreement in love without bashing another brother or sister?
Two catagories...
1. You either believe God exist
2. You don't believe God exist
To my understanding...God Himself-states to humble one to another-in love.
I could be wrong here-but-for heaven sakes-have mercy.
---char on 7/23/10


I wasn't labeling you in any way, either as an apologist or polytheist.

My point to Micha was that many who attempt to defend the trinity (yes I know you don't subscribe to a trinitarian view of God) use arguments that either reflect a lack of understanding of what they're trying to defend, or they don't follow they're arguments to a logical conclusion - resulting in modalism, polytheism or the like. (The plural of 'El' is 'Elohim").

While even some who are well-versed in trinitarian apologetics claim that the understanding of this teaching is appropriately varied, most would argue that there is one truly orthodox' view.
---scott on 7/23/10

One of the most convincing verses that I never hear mentioned is in Isaiah 9:6, "...unto us a Son is born... and His Name shall be called... the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father..." It obviously shows Who Jesus Christ is as well as when Jesus stated, "Have I been with you this long and you do not know Me?" after the disciples said, "Show us the Father."
---Christopher on 7/23/10

David (cont), regarding John. 14:28. Consider 2 Greek words 'meizon' (greater) and kreitton (better). Jesus said the Father is "greater' (meizon) not better (kreitton). Conversely Hebrews 1:4 says Jesus is better (kreitton) than angels. Not just positionally higher, but better in very nature.

A countries leader is positionally greater than his fellow men but not better. The same with God the Father and Jesus, God the Son.

Hebrews ch. 1 clearly shows Christ is God the exact representation of his being. Ch. 2 shows that "Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" Philippians 2:8

As Thomas said to Jesus My Lord and my God.
---Warwick on 7/23/10

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//What was the conditon of God before being "received up" and... Who recieved God?///...clarifies a misunderstanding of the three in unity and ways God has identified Himself to those who believe-IN-Him.

The Word of God proceeds out of His mouth and does not RETURN to Him void.
When one believes What God has declared-[His Word]-Who gets the Glory?---God.
His Word became Flesh-Who gets the Glory?-God.
Who's witnessing of God?---Himself-through His Word-by His Spirit-forever-Qdm.
There is no other---God.
Praise God who gives personal understanding-to the persona of Each office. This defines brothers and sisters in relationship with their Father.
Through the Savior-Jesus Christ.
Yeshua-defined-Yehovah saves.
---char on 7/23/10


You can label me as you wish. I am not an apologist because I do not defend any doctrine of men. I cannot be considered a trinitarian because I do not say there are three persons in one Godhead.

In scripture (and in life), I identify the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with godliness (or deity) as they bare witness to each other. At that point, I can no longer speak because, as the Apostle Paul says, "without controversy. godliness is a mystery".

I cannot help it that 'elowahh is the plural of 'elohiym. It has to mean something (I mean a straightforward meaning). However, you can put the polytheism label on me if you want.

Thank you for the many, many others who stand by what they read.
---aka.joseph on 7/23/10

We do agree here scott. It makes me cringe when I see strictly modalist answers or strictly polytheistic answers. Both were deem heresy by the early church. Just as God requires both justice and mercy, 2 things irreconcilable in human standards yet perfectly blended in God, the trinitarian aspect can be considered perfectly blended as well even though, in our corrupt human reasoning, it seems at odds with each other.
I do believe without any of the 3, salvation would not be possible.
I also see some of the arguments that nontrinitarians that, to me, is equally weak, focusing either modalistic or polytheistic.
Whereas trin. or modal. are considered monotheistic by most, some (as you? or david8318?) view these as polytheistic.
---micha9344 on 7/23/10

Amen.[excellent]---Warwick on 7/22/10
Col 2:9-10
For In Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in Him, Which is the head of all principality and power:
Godhead-as in covenant relation
---char on 7/23/10

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Warwick, GOD is Three Persons in ONE. GOD is just that, a Unit of Three Persons. That's what makes GOD "GOD". The existence of Three Distinct Persons in the GOD-Head does not make "three gods", certainly not in the pagan way that you inferred in your last comment. GOD is ONE, but in Unification and Essence. There are Three Persons. It was experienced at the Immersion or Baptism of YAHUSHUA (JESUS).
---Gordon on 7/23/10


I agree with you that the 'orthodox' view of the trinity is often misunderstood by non-trinitarians (though, from what I can tell, I don't believe that's the case with David. He can certainly speak for himself).

On the other hand many who valiantly attempt to defend the trinity use modalistic analogies like 'water, ice, steam', etc. to do so. Wouldn't you agree?

In addition would-be trinitarian apologists sometimes use arguments that actually suggest polytheism like the 'plural Elohim' argument used by aka.joseph and many, many others.
---scott on 7/23/10

Make your point-looking like a wolve out for the prey. Answers given-repeatedly. Brothers-'ve done an EXCELLENT job.
How-God mediates between Himself and man? Through His Word---till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.
Tim 2:5 For One God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
mesistes- (Gal 3:19,1 Tim 2:5,Heb 8:6)
Who Received God?-God received HIS WORD which HE declared-Will not return to HIM VOID.
Condition of God before being "received up"-huh? again...Huh?
-Word in Flesh. Was there ever a time when God was without Glory?---
Phil 2:6Although being in the form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God---the Word(lingusitic) of God in flesh--office-Is 9:6
---char on 7/23/10

Other Greek translations use, hos as opposed to theos. Hos is a pronoun meaning 'who, which, what, that'. Therefore, "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: who ..." Therefore, '(He) who'. Therefore, 'he'.

The next logical question is who is 'He' in 'He (who)'?

The normal explanation (to deny true deity) will include everything but keeping the verse in context of the previous verses.

v. 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
v 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: (God or He)who was manifested in the flesh,...
---aka.joseph on 7/23/10

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Jesus stated "unless a man be born again" and the religious crowd thought He was talking about rebecoming a it is with those who fail to recognise,God the father, God the son and God the Holy cannot compare spiritual to spiritual with the carnal mind,and that is the problem with cults who claim Christian identity...
---richard on 7/23/10


My advice to you would be to study the Bible on the subject of the Holy Spirit first. When you discover and accept that He is a PERSON, then He will in turn help you to grapple with the Deity of Jesus and the rightful place that the Son and the Holy Spirit have in the Godhead. Beware of those who would try to denigrate Jesus, and reduce the Holy Spirit to a mere "influence".
---Ernest_1 on 7/23/10

David I have never been to Babylon and do not worship three gods.

We have been through all this before but here we go again..

1 Timothy 3:15 speaks of the living God and vs. 16 continues saying He (the living God) was manifest (to make apparent, make known), in a body. This is consistent with John 1:14 'The word became flesh, and with Hebrews 10:5-7 "..but a body you prepared for me." And consistent with Colossians 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. Who lives in bodily form "all the fullness of the deity." Also consistent with God the Son being the Creator, Saviour, the Alpha and the Omega , therefore God Almighty. Continued.
---Warwick on 7/22/10


OK, I'll play along.

God was...received up in glory? What are you asking here? Do you know how the angels traveled from God to us? Do we know how God created the world?

Ok, what is your real question? Is it, is Jesus really God?

Let's reason this with the HS help. God, is a title, not a person. God has attributes, all-knowing, all-present, all-powerful, all-glory, and then merciful, loving, holy, etc.

Did Jesus have these attributes? Yes, He knew things about people without being told, He could see people being healed from afar, He could disappear in a crowd, He created the heavens and the earth, He was sithout sin. The only thing He did not have was the glory. This He laid down to become human.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/22/10

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I have been asking of trinitarians have gone unanswered now for some time. Why is this?
---David8318 on 7/22/10

I have no problem answering your questions.

Your previous questions are all rhetorical. Please ask real questions that I can answer.

I have answered "is Jesus, God?" in another post. This seems to be the central issue in your arguments.

Why do you reject Jesus as being God? Was He not born of Mary and of the Holy Spirit? Do you question His parentage? Do you question the Holy Spirit as God? Please illuminate.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/22/10

'Trinitarians say 'God was manifest in the flesh', when in fact the Greek word used at 1 Tim.3:16 was 'He' and not 'God''-David8318 on 7/22/10
The Greek word used is 'Theos' translated 'God' 1320 out of 1343 times in KJV. If it is translated in English 'He', the pronoun must be refered back to the Greek 'Theos' or 'God'. Since the Greek word 'hutos' is not used here, meaning 'he' in English, we can conclude whether it is translated 'He' or 'God', it still is from the Greek 'Theos' and refers to God.
Your questions should better be directed at modalists, since trinitarians believe in distinct Persons, yet One God. And yet you will probably still call us polytheistic neo-platonic hellenists, but you still ask modalistic questions.
---micha9344 on 7/22/10

Mark Eaton- with respect, is it possible to have answers to the questions I have asked in my initial post of 7/22/10?

I do not recall discussing these matters with you before, but I will be happy to answer your questions, however the questions I have been asking of trinitarians have gone unanswered now for some time. Why is this?

If the trinity is a 'core doctrine', then these questions should be easily explained, using the Bible.

There are of course satisfactory explanations to my questions (and your questions) that do not require belief in the trinity doctrine. Before I answer any questions here, I will first wait to see if a trinitarian can answer my questions as posed below.
---David8318 on 7/22/10

Two-God Spoke Words-Proceeded out of His Mouth-became flesh-Yeshua.
Three-God confirms His own Word-He is Spirit-Holy Spirit.

ONE-God witnessing Himself in =by His Word-In Spirit.
Yehovah-God is Saviour
Yeshua-Yehovah is Saviour
God is Spirit-God is One.
Is 9:6
Jn 4:24
Zech 19,Deut 6:4
God Spoke the End from the Beginning.

Witnesses of Himself-Forever-Qdm.
Gen 3:15
Jn 1
Mat 1:23-25-Immanuel-God With us-Yeshua.
Jn 14:28
1 Cor 1:11-13
Tim 3:16
1 Tim 2:5
His Word will NOT return-VOID.
Is 55:11
So shall My WORD BE that goeth forth out of MY MOUTH....
Who Gets the Glory? God-He is a jealous God.
---char on 7/22/10

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The triune-trinity mystery is a false doctrine, sprung from Babylons triadic false gods.
---David8318 on 7/22/10

We have debated this before. Let me ask you again to comment on these verses:

John 20:28 "Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!"

Col 1:19 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him"

2 Pet 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ"
---Mark_Eaton on 7/22/10

The triune-trinity mystery is a false doctrine, sprung from Babylons triadic false gods.

---David8318 on 7/22/10


The woman who is call Mystery Babylon shown with a cup in her hand and in (PS 75:8) the Lord has a cup in his hand. Pagan gods were likened to stars, but yet we see the Lord called "the bright morning star" (Rev. 22:16). They(Pagan gods) had temples dedicated to them and again we see the Lord has a temple(Rev. 7:15). Pagan gods were pictured with wings and guess what, the Lord is pictured with wings (Ps. 91:4).

So is our God also pagan?
---Ruben on 7/22/10

The triune-trinity mystery is a false doctrine, sprung from Babylons triadic false gods.

Jesus said, 'The Father is greater than I am'. Jo.14:28.

Paul said, 'The head of the Christ is God'. 1 Cor.11:3.

Trinitarians say 'God was manifest in the flesh', when in fact the Greek word used at 1 Tim.3:16 was 'He' and not 'God'. No trinitarian has yet explained how 'God was... received up in glory'. What was the condition of God before being 'received up'? Who received God? Was there ever a time when God was without glory?

Paul also wrote, 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.' (1 Tim.2:5) Why & how does God mediate between himself and man? The trinity makes this a Non-Sequitur.
---David8318 on 7/22/10

Isiah 63 vs 3:"I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no-one was with me.For I have trodden them in my anger,and trampled them in my fury,Their blood is sprinkled on My garments,and I have stained all my robes.".....was that man speaking or God and if God how did He trample as a spirit or the Heavenly Father? who scorn the trinity,do greatly err!..the plain reading of Gods word speaks for itself.
---richard on 7/20/10

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Satan can not have you believe-The Word of God-Immanuel-died and rose from the dead.
Gods words became flesh as foretold of...
the child named Immanuel-God with us.

The enemy has no power over God-as proven by God by His Word becoming flesh-died and resurrected.

Satan hates this fact and will do anything to divide those on earth with seeing and witnessing this truth.

God alone conquered death-no one else can.

Christ is risen-Gods' Word Saves
Act2:31-1 Pet 1:3-Jn24-31
Is 9:6 Unto us A Child is Born-Immanuel God with us-Mat 1:23-25

Gods' Word is truth-Satan will give you another to deny the resurrection.

Believers-Keep you eye on the seed.
---char on 7/20/10

Peter, which denominations are you refering to, which do not believe in the Trinity?
---Eloy on 7/11/10

-micha-Again a Big Amen.

///God was here before the ancient cultures' corruption of the One God, His Spirit, and His Word which turned Him into idols that could not speak, see nor hear. One God revealing Himself three ways, complete yet distinct.
1Cor 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all.
Rom 15:1, Act 7:55, Act 2:33, Mat 28:19, Jhn 14:26, Jhn 15:26, Gal 4:6, Eph 2:18, Luk 3:22
---Micha9344 on 7/8/10///
---char on 7/9/10

That's Right David.
Blind Man - made conception idea from the rcc !! That Are here Matt.15 v 9 & came from here 2nd.Cor,4 v 4 & 11 v's 14 - 15.
---Lawrence on 7/9/10

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-But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore,-Justin Martyr(-c165AD), 1st Apology, Ch 6.
-In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom-Theophilus(-c185AD), to Autolycus Bk 2 Ch 15.
-I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant, for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.-Clement of Alexandria(-c215AD), Stromata Bk 5 Ch 14.
Apparently 4th Century is false, then so would the other statements.
---micha9344 on 7/8/10

God creates through His Spirit and His Word.
Satan distorts God's truth into lies.
God was here before the ancient cultures' corruption of the One God, His Spirit, and His Word which turned Him into idols that could not speak, see nor hear. One God revealing Himself three ways, complete yet distinct.
1Cor 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all.
Rom 15:1, Act 7:55, Act 2:33, Mat 28:19, Jhn 14:26, Jhn 15:26, Gal 4:6, Eph 2:18, Luk 3:22
---Micha9344 on 7/8/10

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all three involved in our salvation.

Which one do you think is optional or unnecessary or don't want?
---Cluny on 7/8/10

NO you don't have to believe in a Man - made conception idea of the triune g-head. The devil here 2nd.Cor,4 v 4 & 11 v's 14 - 15 gave to man to start the Man - made trin relig - org the rcc & they Are here Matt.15 v 9, even IS an abomination to Almighty God..
---Lawrence on 7/8/10

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Most mainline denominations believe one must believe in the Trinity or they are into at least false doctrine and at worst a cult.
---James on 9/18/07

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

you must believe in the Son to be Saved not the Trinity
---Exzucuh on 3/14/07

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

you must believe in the Son for through his name is life not the Trinity.
---Exzucuh on 3/14/07

Acts 9:19-20 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

the trinty was not preached but Jesus is the
son of God.
---Exzucuh on 3/14/07

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Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

it is the revelation of the Son you need to understand not the trinity.
---Exzucuh on 3/14/07

** To be a Christian, don't you have to believe in the Trinity? **

You can be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity the same way you can eat everything in sight, and still be a temperate person, or drink yourself into a stupor all the time and still be sober.
---Jack on 3/14/07

The Trinity (God eternally existent as three distinct coequal, coeternal persons) is not biblical. Trinity does not appear in ANY bible, in any language. It was invented by Romans (some non clergy) in the 4th century AD. One omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God revealed as Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Biblical. (Isaiah 9:6, Col 2:8-9, 1Timothy 3:16, John 1:1-4, John 8:58, Rev. 1:8) Unfortunately, Christians have chosen to accept tradition and incorrect terminology over the Word of God for 1700 years.
---David on 2/26/07

Belief in the Trinity is not essential to Christian faith. Too many people who genuinely love God choose tradition over truth. There is overwhelming pressure by many in the church to accept the so called Biblical proof for something that is completely un-Biblical. 1Timothy 3:16 says And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
---David on 2/26/07

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mary-Jesus describes what the Trinity is all throughout the gospel of John.
Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; God is a consuming fire, God is Spirit. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesse Duplantis explains the Trinity the best. If someone does NOT believe in the Trinity, they are not a Christian. How can they be?
---donna6598 on 2/22/07

Need believing Christians in China asked me this question. I believe you do have to accept at least the concept of the Trinity.
---Mima on 2/22/07

Christians do have to believe in the Trinity. It is Jesus the Son of God who came to earth and who went to the Cross to take the sin of the world on Himself. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not do this. The Son did it. If you do not believe in the Trinity you cannot believe in the Jesus of the Bible.
---Helen_5378 on 2/22/07

Believeng in the Trinity, is the absolute core and at the heart of Christianty. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, one of the same. In other words. The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God. Other people who professes to be Christians and has a problem with this belief is between them and God.
---catherine on 2/22/07

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greetings.Trinity doctrines are like churches ,they are everywhere.It is good that one has a partial understanding of the trinity while living today but if not it will be taught later in our progressive life beyond this one.It will retard no one's salvation .I respect the trinity but worship the Father.The trinity remains as a clouded part of christian doctrine.Most everyones interpretation's are different.
---earl on 2/21/07

Yes we have to believe in the trinity. The best I can explain it is...take an ice cube, put it in the pot turn the stove on, then you'll have steam, then watch the ice melt, and you'll have water. Three in one, ice, steam and water. Believe me, these people only think they are getting away with it. Nothing gets passed God...Nothing.
---Rebecca_D on 2/21/07

What exactly are you saying is the Trinity. The Father, Son & Holy Ghost, but are they seperate or the same or both. We have to define the term before we can discuss.
---mary on 2/21/07

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