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Should We Consider UFOs

When you think there are more than 40 sextillion stars, the heaviest known stars are said to weigh 100 times more than our sun which weighs about 330,000 times more then the earth, and 1/10 of planets could sustain life forms. Should U.F.O.S be considered PRINCIPALITIES of Ephesians 6?

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 ---Cynthia_1 on 4/9/07
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This is called the "War of the World's" syndrome. Remember what happened back in the day (1938) with a little radio program. People killed themselves, died of heart attacks and some said it was demonic. Turned out to be a joke (play), invented by some radio actors, including a young and slim Orson Welles. Come back to reality.
---John on 5/3/07

Just by a fluke, of happenstance I bought a book this week about natural cures, amazingly enough there is a section of his book about aliens found and are stored in a certain top secret area 51 located in Nevada. The actual aliens and ufos are said to be stored in this location.
---Cynthia_1 on 5/3/07

Angel basically means "messenger", but it is also used for a supernatural spirit being who is NOT human. "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" (Heb. 1:14). Man was made a little lower than the angels (Psalm 8:4-6). Jesus did not die for angels (Heb. 2:16).

Humans are sometimes called messengers; they are not what we call "angels". Joshua, you are guilty of the fallacy of equivocation.
---Ktisophilos on 5/2/07

The Bible does call humans "angels": like people who carry messages (Job 1:14; Luke 7:24; 9:52), prophets (Isa.42:19; Mal.3:1), priests (Mal.2:7), and church leaders (Rev. 1:20). The word "angel" in both Hebrew and Greek means "messenger", so the emphasis is more on function rather than their diverse morphology. In scripture "angels" are often indistinquishable from humans, (Heb.13:2). So why would you not consider living humanoids to be "biological"?
---joshua on 5/1/07

Jerry, I figured you were intelligent enuf to know what I meant by "Viking creator". Obviously NASA did it, but I didn't have space to type "designer of the LR experiment". My search uncovered his published paper rebutting the naysayers, but not what you claim to have found. In fact, I found the biological interpretation IS supported by other NASA scientists, such as David Warmflash, an astrobiologist. It only takes one example to prove other NASA scientists DO agree with Levin.
---joshua on 5/1/07

Joshua I have never seen humans described as angels in Scripture. I definitely never have been!
---Warwick on 4/30/07

Josh: YOU gave me the proof when you suggested that I Google Gilbert Levin! That's what turned up. Thanks.
---jerry6593 on 4/30/07

BW, thanx for helping clarify the position. Do you agree sometimes scripture uses the term "angel" to describe humans?

Jerry, where is your proof that NO other NASA scientist agrees with Levin's peer reviewed papers which skillfully rebuffed the theory of the detractors claim that Viking's positive evidence of microbes on Mars was "inconclusive" since it could have been caused by some chemical reaction rather than crobes?
---joshua on 4/29/07

Joshua while being a defender of God's Word and a promoter of His reality (a la Romans 1:23) it would never occur to me to describe God & His angels as 'life', as in biological life, as they are both supernatural.

The desire to find biological life in space is about proving microbe to man evolution, not the existence of God. As Scripture says only a fool would say there is no God.

I hope that helps.
---Warwick on 4/28/07

Your gift could be very valuable in these days of deception when Lu will appear as an angel of light (with a UFO?).

Joshua the point was if the Devil can appear as an angel of light(which is a trick). What is stopping Him or any demon from using another trick and creating the big UFO hoax. How can we know what limitations demons have? Stories of UFOs(they didn't clal them UFOS) date back to before we even had flying vehicles. The UFO phenomena stories is as old as ghost stories.
---Matthew on 4/28/07

I am with Cathrine LOL and Now let us all Pray!
---Sande on 4/28/07

Josh: You are still joshing me. Gilbert Levin was not "Viking's own creator" as you alledge. He designed SOME (but not all) of the biological experiments on Viking. His experiments yielded some questionable results, but all the others came back negative. He is the ONLY NASA Viking Scientist who believes that life might exist on Mars. He is a Panspermia believer. So back we go to the National Inquirer.
---jerry6593 on 4/28/07

The media always amazes me with the junk it brings up and out. I find myself switching channels. I am talking about on the news. I pray first then switch.
---catherine on 4/28/07

Brother W, I've watched your postings for awhile and appreciate your gift in creation research, and was hoping you'd help out here. I too support godly men. But saying "there is no intelligent life out there" (or what unbelievers think they heard), is the conceptual equivalent of saying "there is no God", which Ps.14:1 says is the voice of a "fool". Does "denying life" help unbelievers "deny God"? Is this what CMI claims is "Bible truth"?
---joshua on 4/28/07

Jesus said : what to you ? . just you follow me .if Jesus wanted us to know more, He will have told us about that also.
---celia on 4/27/07

M: I understand what you're saying and think you are correct. It sounds like you have a spiritual gift which the enemy does not want surrendered to Jesus, so he tries to use it to scare us away from learning how to use it properly. Your gift could be very valuable in these days of deception when Lu will appear as an angel of light (with a UFO?). People with eyes for the physical stuff, but suffering from spiritual blindness, will be the most vulnerable. I will be praying for your victory.
---joshua on 4/27/07

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"Why men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up?" Ac.1:11. They who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and in truth; Jn.4:24. Looking for His return does not mean gazing up into the sky as much as looking into the nature of spiritual things so as to better know Jesus. Any moment you could find yourself standing in His presence.
---joshua on 4/27/07

You are quite possibly correct that spirits have "morphing" capabilities, but I'm still searching for scriptural proof. Do you know of any versus?

2 Corinth 11
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
---Matthew on 4/27/07

While some of you folks are concerned about and looking for UFO's, I will be looking for Christ's return. And I will praise Him. Yea Jesus!
---John on 4/27/07

Joshua I have been demonically tormented I have heard "ghosts". I just have a better knowledge of what demons can do. They can induce visions and make it seem very real.
They can appear in different forms. The "ghosts" and "aliens" are two of the biggest hoaxes in history performed by the most cunning and deceitful forces in this world. Many don't want to believe that. Maybe some are afraid.
---Matthew on 4/27/07

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You are thinking well Matthew. I'm happy to see people thinking at all. Better too much than too little? You are quite possibly correct that spirits have "morphing" capabilities, but I'm still searching for scriptural proof. Do you know of any versus? Some UFOs have actually been observed switching between forms like disks to orbs and stuff. So there's a greater chance that the ones who can't morph are more likely to be ones built by man; (hence not demonic??)?
---joshua on 4/26/07

Some are saying UFOs can't be demonic because they don't need to be in a ship to move from A to B. You are thnking to hard. I understand demons can appear in any form. They can appear to one person as a dog, another a rabbit, another a man. What is stopping them from creating a flying object in the sky? You aren't realizing that the object isn't real. It is a visual trick. There isn't anything in it. When people talk about entering a ship this is most likely a vision given by demons. Also a trick.
---Matthew on 4/26/07

I'll not repay in likemanner unchristian attacking of people, denigrating them, sniping about money etc.... Just deal with the truth Who is greater than I. Awaken ye sleepers and Christ will give thee light!! Eph.5:14.

A Google of Gilbert Levin reveals what Viking's own creator says; also try "mars methane" and "intelligent bacteria", (possibly smarter and more charitable than some of my so called Christian brethern.) Then lie again and say there's "no evidence."
---joshua on 4/26/07

Josh: You are sadly mistaken. Countless billions in NASA expenditures notwithstanding, absolutely no life has ever been found anywhere but planet Earth. You need to read something other than The National Inquirer.
---jerry6593 on 4/26/07

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Joshua, they have NOT found life on Mars! This applies both to Viking and the meteorite ALH84001. And bacteria have personalities, give us all a break.

About money, you were the one who expects books for free from a ministry funded by donations. Evidently you don't believe "a worker is worthy of his hire".
---Ktisophilos on 4/25/07

Joshua no I am not a CMI salesman but I am a supporter of the brilliant Godly work they do. I am well aware of the Christian quality and long-term dedication of those who work there and I don't think they need you to proof-read their books.

To continue my record of criticism and pettyness may I say you do seem to be rather impressed with yoursself which is not a becoming trait in a Christian.
---Warwick on 4/25/07

Joshua when Christians talk of intelligent biological life in space I think it obvious we are not referring to microbes or God & His angels. Surely those whose foundation is the whole Word of God are well aware of the presence of God & His angels but would not place either in the same realm as man.

Are you by chance simply arguing for the sake of argument?
---Warwick on 4/25/07

4KP: You agree intelligent life exists elsewhere and now request evidence for extraplanetary life "in the sense of biology". Viking in 1976 detected living organisms in Martian soil. Bacteria inside Surveyor's camera survived 3 years on the moon. Current Mars probes are finding evidence of microbial life there. And if crobes weren't there before, they are now since NASA didn't sterilize the Rovers. Evidence enough? Please refrain from unbiblical positions that make Christians look stupid.
---joshua on 4/25/07

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KP3: "Bio" means life. Unless we define life, we lack a ruler to measure such questions. Angels are alive, so are they non-biological? Is God non-biological too? Rather than adopting man's arbitrary definitions to appear smart, (like redefining "life" as a "square-circle" to prove "life exists nowhere"), consider the Living Universe idea, which is more like what the Bible portrays. News: scientists HAVE verified intelligence AND personalities in bacteria.
---joshua on 4/25/07

2KP: No good deed goes unpunished. First I get criticized for criticizing, then for being cheap, now for whining? Jesus spoke of a generation of whiners that couldn't be pleased. God's anthropocentric design is not news to me. I understand man is special only because he is the design God humbled Himself to, to reveal Himself in a finite way. It's all about Him, not us. We should "take everything up to God" ultimately, including our definitions, to have a truly Theocentric, perspective.
---joshua on 4/25/07

1KP: Thank you Brother for the starlight tip! I'm aware of at least 3 creationist theories about it. Which one do you prefer? I'm encouraged to see I'm not the only one sharing research findings for free. (If any of you are still hung up the money issue, you can estimate my minimum donation by multiplying my typing speed on this blog, by min.wage.) Jesus didn't charge for sharing the truth did he? Therefore, I will be glad to critique the article and get back to you with my conclusions.
---joshua on 4/25/07

Ktisophilos, Your much writting will not help you. Fix your eyes upon Jesus. I'm not buying what your selling. You need to be born again.
---GailW. on 4/25/07

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Don't let anyone fool you. There is no proof that UFO's are something to be concerned about. The devil want's you to be preoccupied with these crazy distractions. It's called FEAR. Look for Christ's return.
---James on 4/25/07

Warwick, I hear what sounds like a spirit of pettiness speaking. The time I just spent defending brother Bates' reputation, the publicity he gets from our talking about him, (are you a CMI salesmen?), and the many hours I'd spend proofreading his book for flaws in his logic, to help CMI improve credibility in their next edition, are worth far more than the cost of his book. Or are you implying my ministry is not worth a minimum wage? Guess I'd be lucky to even get an autograph from such a great man?
---joshua on 4/24/07

Joshua: "intelligent biological life" (triple redundancy)

Not at all. Angels and God are spiritual beings so are not the subject of biology, but they are life. Bacteria are alive but not intelligent.

For distant starlight, see "The Creation Answers Book", available from Creation Ministries International. And since you're tighter than Tupperware, that chapter is available for free on their website.
---Ktisophilos on 4/24/07

It's a bit much for Joshua to whinge about "anthropocentrism". News flash, God gave man dominion over creation (Gen. 1:26-28), so take it up with Him!

And of course, Joshua hasn't produced the slightest evidence for life on other planets in the sense of biology.

And he must ignore the fact that demons can't be saved because Jesus didn't die for them. The ones who encountered Jesus knew very well they were doomed, but begged not to be tormented before it was time.
---Ktisophilos on 4/24/07

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Joel: "Why this fasination with UFO's? Forget about it. I don't bother with this nonsense."

You may not, but the world certainly does. And we are commanded to give reasons for our faith (1 Peter 3:15) and demolish contrary arguments (2 Cor. 10:4-5).

"let's look for Jesus' coming."

It is not either/or but both/and. Looking for His coming does not excuse disobeying the clear commands to defend the faith.
---Ktisophilos on 4/24/07

I just had to come to this blog, if it's only once. Why this fasination with UFO's? Forget about it. I don't bother with this nonsense. let's look for Jesus' coming. God bless.
---Joel on 4/24/07

Joshua don't be so tight go and buy your own copy of Gary Bates book. Why should a Christian ministry supported by donations give you a book when you can afford to buy it?
---Warwick on 4/24/07

How many, (be honest now) has seen some sort or type of UFO, up close and personal right in front of your eyes? I'm not talking about some fragment in the sky. Many people "think" that they see things but really aren't sure. And how many of you actually think the UFO's are demons? And need a spaceship to do their dirty work. If their are 2 or more in a spaceship, do they agree on where to go and who to bother or do they fight over the controls? Like Marvin the Marshin and Bugs Bunny.
---Rebecca_D on 4/24/07

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4W: Angels are capable of interplanetary travel, so it's ludicrous to assert there's no intelligent life elsewhere. Angels have bases set up this planet, so who can credibly claim there are no bases set up on other planets or stars? For so-called Bible believers to claim there's no "intelligent biological life" (triple redundancy) on other planets is not only false, but an unbiblical and illogical argument that destroys our credibility in the eyes of our current culture. We can't defend lies.
---joshua on 4/24/07

1KP: Thanks for the Hebrew data that indicates OECs are mistranslating. I suspected so, and always believed that "made" was the proper translation. My point to you was the text doesn't actually say stars were made on the 4th day. In my research the speed of light poses a bigger obstacle to the creationist worldview than do evolved monkeys, which seems to be where most creationists focus their energies. Can't we express and defend Biblical truth without sounding (being?) anthropocentric?
---joshua on 4/24/07

2KP: I use a "holocaust comparison" only when it's appropriate, as it is in this case if you take the time to think about what I wrote, instead of merely reacting to hot button keywords like a worldly culture does. If you're implying Adam cursed all humanoids everywhere, then we have a responsibility to preach the gospel to the poor demons if we can find them out there. We should seek them out as a potential mission field instead of letting them go to hell. Ya think?
---joshua on 4/24/07

3W: Instead of yielding to adversary's making us waste time criticizing fellow soldiers for criticizing other soldiers, we must stay focused on seeking Truth. Asserting there's no intelligent life on other planets contradicts what TS said about angels needing no vehicles to travel. What competent theologian claims angels can't fly off-planet? We can't argue there isn't biological life elsewhere without unbiblically narrow definitions. And declaring what "isn't" is a mark of a fool; Ps14:1.
---joshua on 4/24/07

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1W, Many exclude God & angels from their definitions and thinking. We should NOT think like unbelievers. Theocentricity differentiates a Christian worldview from secular ones. Properly defining fundamental definitions like "intelligent", or "life" starts with God's perspective on the issue. Excluding consideration of Him, or His perspective, is the core of carnality, and the fundamental lie upon which the evolutionary worldview is based. Absurdities and contradictions result.
---joshua on 4/24/07

2W: I agree contradictions I'm hearing here are likely caused by hearsay instead of Bates' actual position. Yet good writers communicate so others can easily understand and simply convey the message in forums like this, (not resorting to discredited evangelistic tools like "buy my book"). My plate is full researching truth rather than chasing down lies. But I'll take time to critique his book if he sends me a copy and agrees some UFOs aren't demonic, and there IS intelligent life elsewhere.
---joshua on 4/24/07

Joshua read what Ktisophilos wrote below and read what Gary Bates has written. Then if not satisfied you can criticize what he has actually written. Until then it appears you are repeating hearsay. You can order his book on the creationontheweb site.

When we talk of life on other planets I don't think many include God & His angels in this definition.
---Warwick on 4/23/07

Joshua, first you denounce GB's book without reading it. Then you play bait'n'switch by bringing up angels which GB doesn't of course dispute as being intelligent life.

The text DOES have "stars" with the direct object mark "et" that points back to the verb "asah" (made). The OECs are talking nonsense about "appeared" because that is "ra'ah" as in Gen. 1:9 "the dry land appeared".
---Ktisophilos on 4/23/07

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Joshua commits the typical Godwin Law violation with that nonsensical Holocaust comparison.

Jesus is the descendant of Adam (Luke 3:38), and He the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45) who is our Kinsman-redeemer (Is. 59:20), who died for His relatives, humans, not angels (or Vulcans etc.) (Heb. 2:24).

Adam's Fall would have cursed all these hypothetical Klingons etc. But the Incarnation was unique to Earth, and now He is fully God and fully Man, and sits at the right hand of the Father.
---Ktisophilos on 4/23/07

KP2: Earth was created on Day 3. The text doesn't actually say God "created the stars on Day 4", so some old-earth creationists claim stars merely "appeared" then. Also we know the genetic diversity of humans exceeds our imagination. Jesus commanded we preach the gospel to "every creature", (not judge whether "Klingons" are racial variations of homo sapiens). Judging what is "human vs. humanoid" is the mentality that promoted slavery and the Holocaust.
---joshua on 4/23/07

I respect CMI. If you know brother Bates, ask him to jump in here and defend himself. Don't admonish me for saying he can't be "definitive" IF he's claiming the Bible is "incompatible with intelligent biology on other planets." One Mars landing disproves this thesis. Nor do we have a comprehensive definition of "intelligence" or "planet". I doubt he'd claim omniscience by stating no man has ever been on Mars. I suspect his position is being misrepresented.
---joshua on 4/23/07

Brother Warwick, I said Gary isn't definitive IF he's giving the impression intelligent life elsewhere is contrary to Scripture. Even the Vatican disagrees. Bible teaches God existed before the world began. He lives transcendent of His creation. By definition He's "extra-terrestrial" and He's intelligent. So not all "ETs" are demonic. As further proof, you'd probably include angels under this literal definition, and believe ONLY one-third of the creation fell into sin?
---joshua on 4/23/07

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catherine: There are UFO's. They are "Unidentified"...they could be either good or bad.

Knowing that after Jesus quieted the storm the boat "immediately came to shore" I would venture to say that God's Angels do not need Spaceships to get from point a to point b.
---TS on 4/23/07

KP, Thanx for clarifying Bates "does NOT attribute all UFOs to demons, but only a small fraction. Some are natural phenomena, some are man-made, and some are hoaxes." By definition UFOs are "unidentified" and "flying". This qualifies angels (or "dragonflies"), so I know not all of them are demonic. Matthew is correct that many are evil. God's angels involve themselves with humanity, but their M.O. is usually to keep low-profile, (more so than demonics tend to?)
---joshua on 4/23/07

Farmers know bee extinctions are underway. Not all stuff happening with insects are "non-apocalyptic". Einstein warned humanity has less than four years left if we lose our pollinators. 1/3 of our food depends on them. Don't be quick to explain away things in the way you want them to be. Open your mind, for what you don't use you loose. Jesus criticized inability to believe, warning you cannot see (much less enter) God's kingdom until you start thinking like little (gullible?) children.
---joshua on 4/23/07

Catherine, you usually seem to have godly words of wisdom. What's wrong?
---joshua on 4/23/07

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Cynthia, some people sweep questions under the rug because their minds are too little to deal with big stuff. God makes ALL things possible. But discern the data and listen carefully to not misrepresent the Bible or appear gullible. For example if you go online and look at the pictures of Saturn you will see is a hexagon, not a pentagram. I believe the subterranean earth is a more likely source than Mars or anywhere else out there, which would mean the demonic UFOs are not extraterrestrial at all.
---joshua on 4/23/07

Dispersal period.
Immediately after emerging, young adults instinctively head away from water and fly off into the surrounding countryside. The dispersal period, which lasts from a few days to two or three weeks, is important in two ways. It has probably accounted for the survival of the Order Odonata. Secondly, it is the period during which the newly emerged insects attain full coloration and sexual maturity: they will not make their way to water until they are ready to mate..
---Farmer on 4/23/07

Dragonflies of the Florida Peninsula, Bermuda and the Bahamas (1989) and Damselflies of the Florida Peninsula, Bermuda and the Bahamas (1990).(Sid Dunkle)
---Farmer on 4/23/07

These fall migrations occur over a longer period of time than the spring migration and usually don't start until the water has cooled considerably.
Cynthia, hop on your computer and research your island, you can learn about hatching, migration of insects, and science.
---Farmer on 4/23/07

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I used to work in Warwick, NY. Beautiful place. Get's cold there in the winter.
---j on 4/23/07

Joshua you say Scripture clearly teaches there's intelligent life outside of this planet, where?

BTW I know Gary Bates & his peers very well & they're highly qualified long-time conservative Christians not given to flights of fancy. They have an admirable track record of stability & courage under fire. They're under constant attack from God-haters because of their unflinching defence of God & His word. Be careful about joining the Godless in ridiculing committed Bible honouring Christians.
---Warwick on 4/23/07

I don't feel like looking up the scripture right now, but right off hand, I do not believe in U.F.O.S. Period.
---catherine on 4/23/07

Cynthia, Claude Vorhilon was a man who was visited by an alien. This man was told by this alien that Elohim(God) is really an alien and that we are created by them through some scientific genetic means. This man started the cult Raelism and it is one of many religions started by "aliens". I come to learn conversations between "aliens" and men tend to result in a false Gospel or message. Proves they are most likely demons.
---Matthew on 4/22/07

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Yes, Cynthia, but insects, creatures, plants, have a clock. We can't be looking behind every bush for a dramatic end of life as we know it. God is Up. He's winding up the big clock. Only God knows what time it is and what's really up.
---Farmer on 4/22/07

Joshua, please actually READ Gary Bates' book before criticizing. He does NOT attribute all UFOs to demons, but only a small fraction. Some are natural phenomena, some are man-made, and some are hoaxes.

Scripture teaches that Earth is the key place, created on Day 1. Other stars and planets were created on Day 4. Adam's Fall resulted in a curse on the whole creation (Rom. 8). God took on *human* nature in Christ. And He will have only one bride, the Church, not a Vulcan or Klingon bride.
---Ktisophilos on 4/22/07

Wow ... How gullible some are!
---alan_of_UK on 4/22/07

If Bates is the "definitive" work, CMI needs to hire me. I've been a scientific creationist for 3 decades and like their work, but was unaware young-earth creationists are conceding to more famous old-earth creationist's claim to "prove" they're ALL demonic; (presumably also the ones our own govs fly.) He can't be the "definitive" work if he gives you the impression intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is contrary to Bible. Scripture clearly teaches otherwise.
---joshua on 4/22/07

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Well farmer the island that I live, knows no springtime, it is a desert here, and it is summer 365 days a year.
---Cynthia_1 on 4/22/07

Extra terrestrials must exist, there have even been the proofs with real photographs, of not only the u.f.o.s but the aliens that seem to have a clorophorm, substance inside of them with a crystal, some say they come from beneath the caves of Mars, And all of a sudden this pentagram is found ...on Saturn no less..and then there is the Bermuda Triangle, where planes just disapear from radar and no one gets out alive.... I don't know but these are not just questions to be swept under a carpet.
---Cynthia_1 on 4/22/07

Not to be confused with Norman Bates, from the Bates Motel, Cynthia. He really was an alien.
---KrispieCremopolis on 4/22/07

Yes, Cynthia, it's called springtime.
---Farmer on 4/22/07

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The radar story is facinating, but only one of many thousands of reliable reports of solid targets on radar and cameras, (and other physical evidence). But physical evidence doesn't prove they aren't spiritual since spirits can create physical manifestations. The hexagon on Saturn's north (but not south) pole also appears to be a physical manifestation from a higher energy dimension. I guess Chuck is also ignorant of spirits showing up on camera. I guess that proves spirits don't exist either?
---Joshua on 4/22/07

The definite book debunking UFOs from a Christian perspective is "Alien Intrusion" by Gary Bates of Creation Ministries International. He considers many claims and discusses them on a case-by-case basis, looks at the changing picture in science fiction, and shows how the Bible is incompatible with intelligent biology on other planets.
---Ktisophilos on 4/22/07

Joshua thats amazing, I did not hear of that, but last month a perfect shaped pentagram was located on the planet of saturn. And today.......swarms of dragonflies are at my house. I know that Satan is referred to as the father of the flies, but I honestly must tell you these swarms of dragonflies are unlike any thing I've ever seen. Somethings up.
---Cynthia_1 on 4/21/07

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