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Catholics Saints For Salvation

"The Catholic Church says that Mary, and saints in general, are a mediator between God and man; whereas, the scriptures reveal that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5, 1 John 2:1, Acts 4:12)." Please comment on this statement.

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Mark, I consider Luther heroic for being a loving holy man despite his childhood. But it was his experiences with his biological earthly father and his theological earthly father (Leo) that distorted his view of authority. Also, the RCC released a German translation of the Scriptures TO THE PEOPLE long before Luther. Same with every other language.
---Greyrider on 2/25/08

Lee: You continue to prove my point! You cannot open your mouth about SDAs without lying. Ellen White was a 16 year old Methodist girl when Miller was preaching. Good grief! Give her a break, will you? You believe a mountain of lies which you continually manufacture and "bless" us with. Where do you get off picking on a poor dead woman when your own closet is filled with skeletons?
---jerry6593 on 2/25/08

I know it is pointless arguing with some people. I feel it is a waste of time, however, I must make mention that the early Christians believed Jesus would return within their lifetimes. They were convinced of it, to the point that Paul decided that it was not necessary to marry and have children. It does not make him a false prophet. He just didn't know and decided to live as though Christ were coming tomorrow, which is the way we should be living anyway.
---frances on 2/24/08

Jerry - you may not know the history of Adventism but Ellen White clearly believed the lie as presented by William Miller regarding the return of Christ. And then she believed in the closed door concept, that those who did not follow Miller would no longer have any opportunity to acquire their salvation. You fail to even recognize what a lie or a liar is!
---Lee on 2/24/08

#2. I believe if you read the ninety-five theses you would understand his stance of what the church taught and what he believed. While there is many other books he wrote, one that can help you is "The bondage of the Will" that would open your eyes. And you said he was crazy, kind of knocking him down, but let me say that anyone who would even try to go against the RCC the leaders and call them what he did, would be considered crazy.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/08

#3. Grey: People got killed for going against such a powerful enity. Because many did and lost their lives. When he was threaten with death he went into hiding and translated the Bible into German, so that members could read the Bible themselves. He had more guts then anyone of the people answering for the RCC. Though he was not perfect, his true love was Christ. His loyalty never changed. Many of course hated him for going against the church, for they too were in position of power.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/08

#4. Grey: Others were just afraid to speak out. But not Luther. He stood in front of everyone, and said, Here I stand. The reason you are able to read the Bible is because of people like Luther who God used through the years to bring His Word to the World. While the RCC held the Word of God no one could know if what they taught was truth or not. You are not in bondage anymore, if you fail to see the Truth it is not because God has not spoken to you through His Word. There is no excuses.
---Mark_V. on 2/24/08

Greyrider, your short summary of Martin Luther was not needed. Luther was alway till he died an RCC. He was a person who stood for the cause of Christ even with his life. He was human just like all the others in high positions in the Church. Many other reformers were included in the reformation. All stood against the distorted doctrines brought about by the RCC through the years. Justification by faith and Works was the major one of all. I have five books on Luther
---Mark_V. on 2/24/08

Lee: "It is pathetic that some cannot recognize the truth from a lie!"

Well said! You cannot open your mouth (figuratively speaking) about SDAs in general and Ellen White in particular without spewing a stream of lies. And what's worse, even when you're corrected, you'll come back with the same lies later.
---jerry6593 on 2/23/08

frances -*I have no books by Ellen White, even though I believe she was a prophet...*

I have several of her books and you can find most of them on the internet. While some believe her to be a holy prophet of God, I think the evidence indicates otherwise,and that has been the conclusion of many educated and godly people that are today former Adventists.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
---Lee on 2/23/08

Lee - Scott Hahn does not worship Mary. He always refers to her as being someone who leads people to Jesus. This is hard to understand for anyone who doesn't believe in a literal eternal life.
---Greyrider on 2/23/08

Lee, I have no books by Ellen White, even though I believe she was a prophet. Whether or not she, or her enemies, predicted the end of the world, rightly or wrongly, has nothing to do with me, so please don't keep on and on blackening the name of a woman who was very godly and knew all about the Satan versus God and the Conspiracy (before the Conspiracy theorists were on to it.)
---frances on 2/22/08

Grayrider - ( If you want true Vatican teaching, listen to Scott Hahn, professor of theology at Franciscan University. He is primarily who I have learned RCC teachings from.*

I have read Scott Hahn book Home Sweet Rome and wrote a review of it on Amazon. I got a fortilla of comments as a result. Frankly the guy deserted the Christian faith when he got involved with Marian worship.
---Lee on 2/22/08

Lee - "the hierarchy at Rome could not agree even with their own theologians"

Lee, when I hear the title "Catholic theologian", I assume they preach something different from Rome because that is often the case. If you want true Vatican teaching, listen to Scott Hahn, professor of theology at Franciscan University. He is primarily who I have learned RCC teachings from.
---Greyrider on 2/22/08

frances - *All the lies were well known.*

While you may with some justification criticize the Roman Church charging with with promoting lies, what lie did many believe back in 1844 when Miller predicted the return of Christ?

Ellen White totally supported Millers falsehood and even get herself booted out of the church after being shown in the Scripture that she was wrong.

It is pathetic that some cannot recognize the truth from a lie!
---Lee on 2/22/08

The Roman Church had a powwow with the Lutherans a few years back at Wittenberg Germany- Luthers hometown. While the theologians on both sides of the aisle claimed that their viewpoints on justification were very similar, the hierarchy at Rome could not agree even with their own theologians. Yes, Greyrider's view is very close to what Biblical Christians hold.
---Lee on 2/22/08

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Mark, I read a biography of Martin Luther 15 years ago, written by a Protestant, who portrayed Luther as a holy man of God who had severe emotional problems as a result of being rejected by his own father. While in the seminary studying to be a priest, Luther practiced self-flagellation to pay for his sins. This was practiced by many Catholics of the day, but was NOT taught by Rome. Pope Leo's arrogance, coupled with Luther's childhood is what caused Luther to misunderstand RCC teaching.
---Greyrider on 2/22/08

Lee, I believe that what Greyrider is explaining is not what is taught in the RCC. While it is great that he believe's it is the works of Christ, that is not the reason works was entered into the doctrine of Justification. He probably doesn't have a clue as to why the Reformation came to be, and has not studied the details from any kind of study only what he himselfs believes. Which is good if he is to be saved.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/08

I do good works for 2 major reasons - I love the Lord and second I love other people.

As to not doing things I should not do, I fear not the lost of my salvation as His word assures me of that is mine, what I fear is His discipline Hebrew 12:6f.
---Lee on 2/21/08

I realize someone has written that Jesus must have known and not cared what mistakes, or perversions, the Catholic Church would come up with. That is totally wrong if you read Mark Ch 13 and Matthew Chapter 24 and 2 Thess 2. All the lies were well known. In fact John, in Revelations Chapter 2 condemned the Nicolaitans (forerunners of RCC) and hated them.
---frances on 2/21/08

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Lee, it's all in the wording. If you are referring to what we contribute to our salvation, then yes, all we contribute is faith alone. But Rome has always used the phrase "Faith and Works" to clarify what type of faith, a mere intellectual acknowledgment of Jesus as the Savior of the world is not enough.

OUR faith and HIS works.
---Greyrider on 2/21/08

GreyriderLee - I what I have been trying to say. THIS is what the RCC means by "Faith and Works".

So you then agree that the basis for ones salvation is faith alone - a faith that is alive evidenced by good works?
---Lee on 2/21/08

Lee wrote - I believe the context states one is not justified by a dead faith but one that is alive as evidenced by good works.

Exactly, this is what I have been trying to say. THIS is what the RCC means by "Faith and Works". We do NOT earn our salvation, but only a vibrant faith can save us. Remember, Satan himself and various demons in Scripture acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah. That kind of faith is not enough.
---Greyrider on 2/20/08

Mark, there are no "works of man" in the eyes of the RCC. Many RC preachers use the phrase "eyes of faith" because many things are not what they seem to the human eye. You THINK you see people perform "good works". ALL "good works" are the work of the Holy Spirit. But those works can only occur in any great number IF that person has faith. Those outside the RCC have trouble understanding the power of the Holy Spirit, and the role He plays in our salvation.
---Greyrider on 2/20/08

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Greyrider, your post #1, #2, do not clearly explain anything with James 2:24. I believe you are hilariously confused. I notice that in your 1,2 you first suggest that the Catholic church believes that the works talked about are the Works of Christ, but you are wrong. That's why they have satisfaction of works. To regain grace by works. The whole reformation was about the Works of man introduced by the RCC. Then after you give that explanation you throw in James 2:24, contradicting what you had just said.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/08

#2. Grey: implying that works justify people not faith. So you want to hold on to two concepts of faith because you know you cannot give one up. Did you listen to what Lee said? Do you get what he is saying? I think Greyrider you know we are justified by the Works of Christ not our own, but you want to not abandon the faiths of your church because if you do that you will have to abandon all of them. You are either justifed by faith in the Lord our Savior, are you are not.
---Mark_V. on 2/20/08

#3. Grey: if you believe it is the works of Christ which justify you, you believe by faith in Jesus Christ. If you believe the works of man justify you, then your faith is in you. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the cause of our justification, and we believe it by faith. "Being freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"... to demonstrate at this present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
---Mark_V. on 2/20/08

The work stops here=EPH2:8 & 9/For by grace are you saved through FAITH ,and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God.Not of WORKS lest any man should boast.
---ian8763 on 2/19/08

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*James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

I believe the context states one is not justified by a dead faith but one that is alive as evidenced by good works. Otherwise, you will have a conflict with what Paul stated that one must live by faith alone - Romans 1:17.
---Lee on 2/19/08

James 2:14-24 clearly illustrates what my last 2 posts say. It is summed up in the last verse.

James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
---Greyrider on 2/19/08

* ANY AND ALL "good works" in our lives are the result of CHRIST's GRACE working in our lives*

While that may be true, the basis for our salvation is faith alone, not deeds of the law in which we will not be justified (declared righteous). Romans 3:20

You will always have your sinfulness right up until the time you are glorifed in Christ - the final act of sanctification.
---Lee on 2/19/08

#2) Accepting the Lordship of Christ is necessary for salvation. IF you believe to the point where Christ becomes the Lord of your life, THAT type of faith will manifest itself in works. RCC teaching is that we are sinful creatures. ANY AND ALL "good works" in our lives are the result of CHRIST's GRACE working in our lives. It is by OUR FAITH and HIS WORKS that we are saved. I apologize for RC's with bad communication skills who mislead you and others.
---Greyrider on 2/19/08

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Mark, I apologize, but this is hilarious to me. I completely agree with everything you say, in theory. Plenty of bad Catholics have unscriptural beliefs, even priests. But the official teachings of the RCC is that we are saved by faith and works. NOTICE, there is no "OUR" before "works". This is vital to understanding RCC teaching. We believe faith in the scholarly sense is meaningless. Many people believe from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah. But that is not enough.
---Greyrider on 2/19/08

Greyrider, there is many people who twist the word of God in many directions. Even those who claim to be Christian and don't even believe in the Word of God. Even when Jesus authenticates Scripture they don't believe in the Word. There is many imposters out there. The problem in the Church really began when "works" was introduced into the doctrine of Justification by the RCC. It was the one major false doctrine. From there many other doctrines entered the church.
---Mark_V. on 2/19/08

#2. The first damaging thing that happened was, that the Works and merits of Christ was insufficient. Man's works had to be included. So they, with their infallible powers had the right to change the doctrine of grace. By so doing, works became something that spread all through the RCC. New idea's came from works, it gave saints recognition for their works, Mary was exalted to be worshipped by her works. Regeneration by baptism by works. The introduction of purgatory was another.
---Mark_V. on 2/19/08

#3. Now they with purgatory someone could pay to get that person to heaven. Indulgences were another act of works. That is why you see so many worshipping these saints. Because of their works. Many other denomintions that split from the RCC carried some of those doctrines and is the reason why it has spread like cancer to others. Only a blind man cannot see this grave sin, done by those in power. Those who are infallible and not able to make mistakes.
---Mark_V. on 2/19/08

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#4. The difference between us and islam, and other religions is that we depend on the merits and works of Christ. Christ works are counted to our account because all come short of the glory of God. Jesus imputes His righteousness on the believer because of faith in the works of Christ, not on our own merits. "Being justified freely, by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood,
---Mark_V. on 2/19/08

#5. "through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His foreberance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed. To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."... Where is the boasting? it is excluded. By what law? Of Works? No. but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds (works) of the law"
---Mark_V. on 2/19/08

#6. That is the Word of God, found in Romans 3:21-28. Pretty clear that no works is involve in our justification, because boasting is not involve, it is all of faith. Justification is a Gracious gift God extends to the rpentant sinner, wholly apart from human merit or work. God does not lie.
---Mark_V. on 2/19/08

1) I believe you misspelled Saints, but I could be wrong. It looks as if you were speaking of the titled beings, though.

I do not need to quote scripture to reply, because my only reply is to say that one should not focus on what others teach wrongly, if they do it, or why they do it. The focus should be on learning what is right in the eyes of God.
---Arletta on 2/19/08

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#2) If we are to believe these ideas that all of these teachings and practices of the RCC are actually wrong, it paints a rather uncomfortable portrait of Jesus. The Apostles taught and practiced what modern-day RCs do. History shows us this. In order to believe all of these anti-RCC attacks, we have to believe Jesus was standing there, teaching the Apostles, KNEW they were going to screw it all up, teach false teachings and Jesus thought to Himself "Who cares?" That's a sick view of Jesus.
---Greyrider on 2/18/08

#1) Here's an interesting observation I've made over the last 15 years. People who refer to the last book of the Bible as "Revelations" usually quote wild fantasies literally dreamed up in the last few decades by false teachers. There is no "s". It is the Book of the Revelation, no "S" at the end. It was NOT a series of visions but ONE look that Jesus gave John about daily spiritual warfare. These new interpretations actually point to something very sinister. (cont)
---Greyrider on 2/18/08

frances, the NWO fantasy is a marketting scam. It makes a mockery of Scripture, renders grace worthless, and above all, it causes the unsaved to look at Christians as mindless, illiterate morons. In short, when you distort Scripture THIS BAD with these bizarre NEW (180 year old) false teachings, the unsaved are pushed further away from Christ and into Satan's hands. Like it or not, you are doing Satan's legwork. You had better think before blindly accepting these myths.
---Greyrider on 2/18/08

MarkV:: while agreeing that idol worship is wrong, so also are IDLEwords.Accountability will be used .
---Emcee on 2/18/08

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Not everyone will be saved, Greyrider. You mix the truth and lies so much it is impossible to continue to relate to you. Revelations exposes the RCC as the Whore. The unity of religion and politics in the NWO is predicted. Revelations was written by John who wrote the gospel as an eyewitness. You bring in new Freemasonry theories of the Bible. You are a danger to many souls, including mine so I hereby end all talk with you. Zechariah and other prophets also predicted the NWO.
---frances on 2/18/08

MarkV:: while agreeing that idol worship is wrong, so also are IDLEwords.Accountability will be used .
---Emcee on 2/18/08

MarkV:: while agreeing that idol worship is wrong, so also are IDLEwords.Accountability will be used .
---Emcee on 2/18/08

Hi, my name is Saint Ian, please don't pray to me, I've got enough problems. Please pray for me in the name of Jesus Christ, through his Spirit, to my father on my behalf. All my love in Christ Jesus,Ian.
---Ianian8763 on 2/18/08

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frances - *Robyn is correct. The Catholic Church is the Church that damns good people to hell.*

So has those that have preached another gospel (Gal. 1:8, 9).

Among them are those that preach a gospel of good works that one must perform in order to merit the gift of eternal life.
---Lee on 2/18/08

Robyn is correct. The Catholic Church is the Church that damns good people to hell.
---frances on 2/18/08

Greyrider, thank you for further educating me about Martin Luther. I will check the facts for myself. He was a Catholic and if what you say is true he remained a brainwashed Catholic till he died. That is sad. Perhaps God was merciful due to the fact that he was not in his right mind.
---frances on 2/18/08

We are never to pray to Mary or the Saints. The RCC is sending a lot of people to Hell.We are to pray to Our Heavenly Father in the Name of Jesus. God tells us this in His Holy Word the bible. We are not to change or add anything to God's Word(the bible)
---Robyn on 2/18/08

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Idol worship is a man-made tradition that was put in by the Catholic church fathers. When works entered the Church. It has been done for centuries now and continues to this day. When you bend your knee's to someone other then Christ you are worshipping that person. Members of your church bend their knee's even to the priest and popes, giving them honor and glory, when it is Christ whom we should give glory to. He is deserving of our worship for He alone paid for our sins. All others are imposters.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/08

Mark, the idea of referring to intercessory prayer as "idol worship" is a man-made tradition, not Scriptural. Martin Luther AFTER leaving the RCC, went on a preaching crusade throughout Europe teaching about the Hail Mary and Mary's role as intercessor.
---Greyrider on 2/18/08

Greyrider, whether or not to pray thru Mary/saint's to God, does not depend on the Book of Revelations. No one is to be prayed to no matter what. Idol worship is forbidden to any Christian all through the Bible. It did not begin in Revelations or how you interpret Revelations, or what anyone wrote outside of Scripture, God wrote Scripture and He say's no worshipping of Idols. He is Lord, and diserves all our worship.
---Mark_V. on 2/16/08

#2. Confusing the issue and blaming it on someone who wrote a book that sold a lot is only a cop-out. The real problem in saint and idol worship has always been around, but it exploded in the Rcc with the new pronouncement of faith by the popes who gave the saints Mary, titles that diserved worship and everyone bought in to it. A false teaching and Eloy is right on that one, even if he is mean in saying it, but he is correct. An Idol worship church is not a Christ only Church.
---Mark_V. on 2/16/08

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Ah, so next the RCC would like us to throw out Revelations. THAT does not surprise me. I just want to know how many books that leaves us with is it one or two?
---frances on 2/15/08

There is only one Mediator between God and man and that is Jesus. Angels may help us, or bring a message from God. However, we should not pray to angels or saints or Mary, we should pray to Jesus or God. Anything else is rebellion against the Word of God. Putting religion before God is idolatry.
---frances on 2/15/08

MIma:: Your silence means Consent, because you did not answer?or is it You pose a question & watch for results but Have no solutions which is it?
---Emcee on 2/15/08

Frances::Your post shows YOU are argueing with God'sword which is the same thing, as argueing with God.
---Emcee on 2/15/08

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frances, you're dodging the question. The Book of Revelation has been hijacked for the almighty dollar. From the first century, this book was seen as depicting daily spiritual warfare, and teaching us how to combat Satan, thru the Mass, the Eucharist, and the intercession of Mary & the saints. The "Left Behind" nonsense was started by a cult in England in the 1920's. Even the Protestants of the day renounced their false teaching.
---Greyrider on 2/15/08

Do you not say when someone close to you dies "he/she is watching over me". If they watch over you, cant they also pray for you, like asking someone on earth pray for you?
---ghost on 2/15/08

The Bible is correct and the RCC is wrong. Sorry. You do not argue with GOD.
---frances on 2/15/08

Greyrider, you bring up Pat Robertson as a name worthy of really are a clever little agent. I've heard he is a traitor to the cause I espoouse....protestantism.
---frances on 2/14/08

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Mima:: Your reply raises My question.Do you think That christianity as Jesus instituted it Has stood still these past 2oo8 years.Is there no progress in your estimation & if so, could you integrate these changes with some of the prophecies by God.Would you not be wrong in denying but rather seek guidance for such happenings.
---Emcee on 2/14/08

Once again back to the age old question. and no matter how many times its explained, those that dont agree will appose it and those that agree are for it. But here's wack at it: All Christians believe in eternal life right, therefore if you die a Christian you still live on. We are called to be saints right, we can all pray for each other(interceding prayer). So if we all live eternally, cant saints in heaven pray for us on our behalf? the same way you may ask me to pray for you on your behalf?
---ghost on 2/14/08

Mima, I was referring to your saying that we do not allow God to save us. I was saying that Jesus paid for all sins at Calvary, but that does not mean everyone is saved. We allow God to save us by placing our trust in Him to save us. He does not save anyone against their will.

As far as praying THRU (not TO) Mary and the saints, it depends on your definition of "eternal life"
---Greyrider on 2/14/08

The issue of whether of not it is Scriptural to pray THRU Mary/saints to God, depends on the book of Revelation. Most people don't realize that this whole notion of the rise of a one world govt headed by "the antichrist", Armageddon and the rapture are all teachings less than 200 years old. Even Pat Robertson admitted this years ago. It's a marketting gimmick, NOT Scriptural. Revelation is about daily spiritual warfare, and the intercession of Mary and the saints is clearly taught there.
---Greyrider on 2/14/08

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To Greyrider, NO!! I do not believe, nor am I implying that everyone will be saved. I'm simply stating that neither Mary or the saints are to be prayed too!! If you pray to Mary or the saints, who are following man made(RCC) tradition. Not the Bible.
---Mima on 2/14/08

Mima, are you implying that everyone will be saved, even those who reject Christ? I do realize that belief is out there. Some people even believe Satan will one day be welcomed into heaven. Is that your belief?
---Greyrider on 2/14/08

If anyone happens to have a Bible--Jn 3:5, 22 born of water & Spirit, apostles begin baptising.
Tit 3:5 saved us thru bath of rebirth & renewal by the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 6:11, you were washed, santified, justified.
1 Peter 3:21 saves you.
---janet on 2/13/08

To Greyrider you wrote,"Salvation is something we allow God to achieve in us." In that one statement, you have summed up all of men's works and self-righteousness.
Salvation is not what we allow, but rather is what Almighty God has so graciously provided for all who will avail themselves of his offer.
---mima on 2/13/08

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The apostles baptised entire households (Acts 16:15, 33, 1 Cor 1:16) This would include infants. No Bible passage prohibits infant Baptism. The early Church Fathers were clear that the baptizing of infants came from the Apostle themselves. That infants lack the use of reason does not prevent them from becoming part of the New Covenant through baptism. In the OT, a child became part of the Old Covenant through circumcision. This was done eight days after birth, long before the child himself could choose.
---janet on 2/13/08

#2The parents in the OT supplied the decision for the child's circumcision until he could confirm this decision at the age of reason, so in the NT parents stand in for the child at his baptism until he can confirm this decison at the age of reason.
In 215AD St.Hippolytus of Rome "Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves, let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them>"
---janet on 2/13/08

Lee, you have a redically different definition of Baptismal Regeneration than the RCC. The RCC says that the Holy Spirit is responsible for the life-changing grace of Baptismal Regeneration. Salvation is something we allow God to achieve in us. Works are evidence of a real faith as opposed to a merely intellectual faith, which does NOT save us. But Baptismal Regeneration clearly puts salvation in God's hands.
---Greyrider on 2/13/08

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