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Predestination A False Doctrine

Does Martin Luther's definition Of Justification of Faith Alone right? And Does Calvin's Later definition of Predestination correct?

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//The Epistles are instructions and teachings of Jesus Christ for Christians only.
---christan on 10/28/10

Yeah Christan except for when those "epistles written only to believers" give us warning about falling away from the faith and believing false doctrines.

Then they only apply to the lost. Why? Because if perseverance of the Saints was true there would be no warnings in the epistles for believers. There would be no reason for them.
---JackB on 10/29/10

Char/Leej, thank you both for the impute of God's Word and what you know concerning the doctrines of Scripture. People have formed a god they can control. You can see that in the subject of the gifts also. The real God of Scripture is no longer God but stands alone in control of nothing, Ruler of nothing, and Savior of no one. Man in control not only of God, but in control of their own destiny. It is the emnity that is still there between them and God. Instead of depending on God, they depend on man to save himself with his own free will, and keep himself saved by his own works. The reason we have those who speak for works for salvation by keeping the Law. They believe they are saved by their own works, "their own freewill"
---Mark_V. on 10/29/10

Acts13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, --

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles.

47----I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,---:and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Jews have judged THEMSELVES unworthy of everlasting life, and Gentiles ordained to eternal life.

Is Paul then saying ONLY GENTILES are ordained to eternal life, and not Jews?
---kathr4453 on 10/29/10

Ephesians continues the ONENESS/Body Jesus prayed about beforehand!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

And this subject divides us, I understand that and seldom post on this subject because of it. Nor do I agree totally with either side, because I can see both sides represented in Scripture. it is because I can see both sides I must stress to everyone who is fixed on either side that there is MORE to this than we can understand. God is sovereign in everything and has given us free will to choose so why continue to fight about this?

Let us stop the arguments and agree that both sides are correct (in some respects) and we will learn the rest at Jesus's feet.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/29/10

Does Martin Luther's definition Of Justification of Faith Alone right?

A few years ago, the Lutherans and Roman Catholics got together at Wittenburg and discussed the topic of justification. The outcome was that both Roman Catholic and Lutheran theologians were pretty much in agreement. However, the Vatican rejected the consensus of viewpoints by the theologians.

While I am not sure what Calvin's definition of Predestination really was, I have come to the conclusion that just about everything Calvin believed in has some basis in Scripture or at least was in agreement with Augustine or other prominent theologians.
---leej on 10/28/10

Christan, Scripture quoting doesn't support you. It only shows the error of your doctrine. When you look in the mirror, you pretend to see those who don't agree with you. It's a mirror, Christan, not a judgment seat. When I look in the mirror, I'm not looking for you for that is foolishness. I am looking for and find Jesus.
---LindaS on 10/28/10

Agree with all of you.
We all came from God-belong to God-will return back-for judgement.
Ecc 12:7,Eze 18:4
There was a time of harmony-
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy.
A remanant continued-then-now-and will still stand with Him.He knows who and have given the opportunity to stand with Him.
This place is carnal and temperary-Gods time frame is not-He is Whole and complete.
Is46:10,Mt13:23,Jn 19:30,Rev22:13
Completely different then our time-frame(parallel)2kgs 6:17
1Cor15(all)God created every soul-knows them before breath in to flesh-Gen2,7
The first will be last-Remanent Chosen-and in slumber.Seed-Gen 3:13,Is 45:4,1Ch 16:13,Rom11:5

---char on 10/28/10

Jesus is the light that lights every man who comes into the world. Are the elect the only ones who have come into the world or does this simple word alone give witness to the revelation given to every man through the revealed wrath of God, the conscience, the creation, the God-given measure of faith, the gift of His Son, the Holy Spirit, and the gospel, not to mention His expression through a people in the earth? I have yet to find either one of you who will touch the Scriptures referred to here. Instead you ignore them or, better yet, say we give no Scripture.
---Linda on 10/28/10

Mark_Eaton, What I see is a me myself and I here, with very little maturity in reading ALL of what is the Hope of OUR calling. The OUR here is the CHURCH, consisting of many becoming ONE.

Ephesians continues the ONENESS/Body Jesus prayed about beforehand!

John 17:21
That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

Many fail to understand the Epistles written were only in reference to those whom God has called to be Christians. Read carefully the introduction verses to each of the Epistles and you will know Paul was talking only to Christians called by the "grace of God".

The Epistles are instructions and teachings of Jesus Christ for Christians only.
---christan on 10/28/10

The quickest way to fall into deception is to pick one verse of out an entire chapter and base you beliefs on it.

That leaves your mind open to an endless list of possible "truth"s.

Yet another reason why there are so many denominations. People pick out what they want to believe and throw the rest away or say it was just a bad translation or can possibly be right because its goes against what I already believe.

I have started over in reading my Bible. This time I am reading it specifically to gather information on the disputes between Calvinism and Armenianism.

Ill be back in a month or so with my guns loaded.
---JackB on 10/28/10

ALAN 8566 OF THE UK ON 10/27/10

YOU said HIS GOD ( MARKV ) Decide whom is allow to BELEIVE - MARKV IS RIGHT

Alot of people and churches use
ROMANS 10,9 THAt if thou confess with thy mouth the LORD JESUS and shalt believe in his heart that GOD hath raised him from the dead thou shall be save.

( YOU and them are NOT looking at every thing the BIBLE is saying.)

FAITH and BELIEVE is something that we do a Work and we can not be Save by anything we do. GALATIANS 2,16
1 THESSALONIANS 1,3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith---------------
First a person gets save, if thats GODS good pleasure -- Then a believer does good works like Believing.

---RICHARD on 10/28/10

Kathr, more assumptions, speculations and stories put together with no context to anything and no Scripture to back up what you say. Just alot of talk. Instead of responding to the answer given to you from Scripture, you respond with more stories of Scripture put together without Scripture passages.

1. "God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."
2. "For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thess. 5:9.
3. "And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the world of God, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" Acts 13:48.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10

We have Paul telling gentiles today they are called and chosen, and Peter telling Jews you are called and Chosen.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

I agree with this, however what you have been saying is that God does the calling and WE do the choosing, which does not align with Scripture. God does the choosing also.

If you believe that God has chosen the BOC, then you must believe He has chosen individuals to comprise the BOC. Otherwise, God did no choosing at all. To predestine an unknown group of people does not agree with who God is. He knows everything all through time, including who will have faith in Christ and who will not.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/10

The "you" who is being chosen and called by God in this verse is not a specific church being addressed in Peter's letter. The who can be any individual having faith in Christ.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/10

Mark_ Eaton, we have Paul telling gentiles today they are called and chosen, and Peter telling Jews you are called and Chosen.

Totally in agreement with what Paul teaches in Ephesians, the Church is the CALLED OUT, called out of this world, a New creature, One new Man, neither Jew or Gentile, no longer part of this world system, seated with Christ in heavenly places, bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh..

The Mystery is the Body of Christ, not some earthly building of believers.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

Calvin leaves out the MEAT of all this.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10

To say that there is NO Scriptural evidence of individual choosing does not seem totally right to me.

The Apostle Peter often referred to God's choosing of us and it is unclear if he was referring to individual choosing or BOC choosing.

Look at this verse...

2 Pet 1:10 "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you, for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble"

The "you" who is being chosen and called by God in this verse is not a specific church being addressed in Peter's letter. The who can be any individual having faith in Christ.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/10

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leej, did God forbid Boaz to take Ruth from the incestuous line of Moab? Did Ruth convert to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob? Didn't Rahab marry into Israel again worshiping the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob? Was Esau FORBIDDEN by his parents to take a wife from...READ it!!! Did Esau's wife and Esau submit to Jacob and worship ALONE teh God of Abraham and Isaac? Or did the Edomites like Ishmael's descendants worship other gods!?

AND Do you see any genealogies in scripture even mention a woman where a seed is passed down ? woman don't have seed!

Starting in Genesis 10, and through out including Luke and Matthew concerning Christ's genealogy, where are women mentioned?
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

Kathr, just a lot of talk with no Scripture to explain anything you say. You formed a story the way you want it then twist it another way by giving your opinion. Your opinions mean nothing, what means something is the Word of God. Anyone can talk all day long without giving any Scripture. And here is what I mean, you first said,
"There are only TWO groups of Elect, Israel the NATION, and the Church."
Two groups you said, then you say,
"The Nation Israel, the church in the wilderness" supposing that there are two kinds of churches, one from the wilderness and one from the time of Christ. There is only one Church, consisting all of believers baptized into one body, with Jesus as the Head of that body.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/10

Matthew 13:15 - "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

John 9:39-41 - "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see, and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth."
---christan on 10/28/10

christian,You say God has mercy on whom He wills, and those whom God has mercy on are God's Elect.

Nineveh a gentile nation receiving God's mercy. Did that make Nineveh God's ELECT? Did God ELECT a Gentile CITY AND Israel mine Elect too. Were THEY elected to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ? Was a CITY of People baptized into Christ's death and resurrection or into Moses? 430 years later GOD utterly destroy Nineveh His supposed elect??

There are only TWO groups of Elect, Israel the NATION, and the Church. The Church is composed of INDIVIDUALS who have placed their faith in Christ. NO NATIONS as a whole are baptized into Christ.

The Nation Israel, the church in the wilderness was baptized into Moses..not Christ!
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

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//The Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 did not, nor could EVER come through CAIN's blood line.

Was not Tamar whom Judah impregnated a Canaanite and from whom Jesus was descended? Genesis 38.

And the Christ line also included Rahab the prostitute and she was a Canaanite.
---leej on 10/28/10

Paul QUOTED from Malachi in Romans 9. Paul talking about ISRAEL, not the Church.

The Elder will SERVE the younger is clearly stated. No where are Esau's descendants called to SERVE the CHURCH, or Calvin's elect!

Esau married a Canaanite, displeasing to God. The Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 did not, nor could EVER come through CAIN's blood line. Noah, the last of Seth line continued the Promise. All but Noah's and his sons in the line of Seth had corrupted themselves with the Canaanites, God destroyed all but Noah and family.

Therefore ELECTION HERE is referring not to INDIVIDUAL SALVATION, but to who the Messiah would come through.

christian, you know very little of any background of God plans and purposes.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

Malachi and Paul use the name "Esau" to refer to the Edomites, who were the descendants of Esau.

Isaac and Rebekah had two sons, Esau and Jacob. God chose Jacob (whom He later renamed Israel) to be the father of His chosen people, the Israelites.

God rejected Esau (who was also called Edom), and did not choose him to be the father of His chosen people.

However christian, where can you see God chose/elected Israel to salvation. Would they not all STILL be saved? What about perseverance?? Wasn't that their mistake to begin with. They believed they were already God's Chosen as a whole, and had no need of Jesus Christ, rejecting Christ clinging to their false security.
---kathr4453 on 10/28/10

destined or predestined,

we will all bow.
---aka on 10/27/10

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I agree with francis on this...
---micha9344 on 10/27/10

kathr4453 said - "OT Israel was NOT chosen to be Begotten SONS through Jesus Christ, nor were they baptized into Chirst or IN CHRIST, nor did they have a HEAVENLY CALLING, but and earthly one."

For your information and understanding, the Bible from Genesis to Revelation tells us of God's wonderful plan of salvation to His people. OT to NT is all about Jesus Christ, hence the Word of God.

What you are declaring from your statement and understanding is that there are two different system of salvation unto God's people. This doctrine of yours is erroneous and foolish.

There's only one way and that's justification by Faith. Yes, all the saints in the OT were covered by the blood of Christ, similar to the last saint.
---christan on 10/27/10

Short and sweet, Francis. Thank you!
---Linda on 10/27/10

To kathr4453 -

You may sound learned to the unlearned in the Word of God but as Christ said, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:37)

Your understanding of "US" is applied to everybody on earth. And yet Paul in his epistles tells us that God has elected, even declaring that God only "loved Jacob and hated Esau", simply to demonstrate election. Try talking your way out of this declaration by God then.

Remember, "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." Therefore, denying election is denying Christ of His glory.
---christan on 10/27/10

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Francis ... No argumant with you

BUT If you read all that MarkV says, his predestination does mean that God chooses whom He will save and whom He will damn without a chance to repent.

His God decides whom He will allow to beleive
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/27/10

Predestination is not the idea that some are choosen to live and some to die.

It is the truth that God has determined that all who believe will be saved.
---francis on 10/27/10

Mark_Eaton, I keep emphasizing that we should not just use the word predestined alone and make up a doctrine that we were individually predestined and individually chosen, and leave it at that.

WE were predestined to become conformed to His Image. WE meaning the CHURCH. Now if you think further, every individual believer will not completely be conformed to His image, if one say is saved on his death bed.

The CHURCH as a whole is presented to Christ without spot or wrinkle.

Calvin leaves out the MEAT of all this.

Why, because Calvin never experienced being conformed to His image to begin with. it begins with being conformed to His DEATH..Phil 3...of which Calvin never died to SELF!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10

Jerry, the mission of Christ was to save the children of God. Those chosen by God from the foundation of the world. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose" Romans 8:28. all things work for good only for those who love God, who are called according to His purpose" Not the rest of the world. For they do not love the Lord. Because they have not been called. And many will not be called. "For whom He foreknew, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"
Those same people He called, those same people He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" not the others.
---Mark_V. on 10/27/10

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I agree with you, Christan, and Cluny.

However, when you say that only Christ and the BOC are predestined, Peter himself proclaimed that he was predestined when he preached at Caesarea:

Act 10:40-41 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead".
---Mark_Eaton on 10/27/10

Neither are correct, in the sense that they contain the whole truth. Both are partially right and partially wrong.

However, I will say this:

NOBODY can be saved apart from God's taking the initiative and willing to save.

As was said in this last Sunday's sermon, God intended us to live not only eternally, but IN eternity, and though mankind fell, He refused to let us go.
---Cluny on 10/27/10

christian, you will maybe see one day that WE have a different calling then the NATION Israel who by the way were ALSO CHOSEN. So let's keep in mind what one is CHOSEN FOR and for WHAT.

OT Israel was NOT chosen to be Begotten SONS through Jesus Christ, nor were they baptized into Chirst or IN CHRIST, nor did they have a HEAVENLY CALLING, but and earthly one.

In Matthew you will see..blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Yet, Jesus said of us...In my FATHERS HOUSE are many mansions, and where I AM there you will be also! TWO completely different CHOSEN purposes.

A heavenly one and and earthly one.

More than the Stars above are the Church, More than the sand = Earthly Israel.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us((the US here is those saved in this Church age and WHAT our calling is....a heavenly one!!)) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Nothing here about individual choosing. What Paul is saying is WHO and WHAT God predestined before the foundation,that is the CHURCH, members of His Body, begotten SONS.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/10

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kath4453, you said "Carefully reading Ephesians, Paul is not talking about individuals but Christ and the CHURCH that were presestined."

Obviously you were not reading carefully enough. The Epistles written were and are referring to Christians called by the grace of God. Paul reminds them of their election, "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world...". (Chapter 1 verse 4)

Are you going to tell us that "chosen us" was not referring to the Christians (who you refer to us "individuals") whom Paul was writing and speaking to but he was referring to Christ? How one twist and turn the Scripture to justify one's agenda.
---christan on 10/26/10

JERRY 6593 Jerry I Know that CHOSEN is not written in 2 PETER 3:9 But the All there, in veiw there, are the chosen.I can come to that assessment by following the Bibical rule.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:13 --------- but which the HOLY GHOST Teacheth ,comparing spiritual thing with spiritual thing. ( And if I fine harmony between verses I found truth.)
Predestination and election of Grace is a vein that runs though out the whole Bible.THERE is so much in the Bible dealing with this. I wish it was not election, that would be nice.Only way you can you can come up with ALL people are save, is to leave out parts of the Bible. THEN your in trouble with REVELATION 22,19

MATTHEW 22,14 For many are called but FEW are Chosen.
---RICHARD on 10/26/10

Good word Kath!
---ginger on 10/26/10

Carefully reading Ephesians, Paul is not talking about individuals but Christ and the CHURCH that were presestined. Peter again tells us that it was CHRIST who was for-ordained. This is the Mystery that was kept hidden but mow revealed. The Mystery that we saved during this Church Age, beginning at Pentecost ending with the rapture are SONS begotten Sons through Jesus Christ. OUR CALLING OUT and HOPE, unlike anything promised before, or promised after are to all who receive Jesus Christ, becoming members of HIS BODY, a New Creature, one NEW MAN, made up of both Jew and Gentile where Christ is Head.
This Mystery, CHRIST IN YOU is our Hope of GLORY, being Glorified together With Christ, joint heirs, again never promised before or after.
---kathr4453 on 10/26/10

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Richard: "THE ALL wrote about here has to do with ALL that are CHOSEN"

Not so! The word "chosen" does not appear in 2Pet 3:9. You are adding to scripture to suppot a false doctrine.
---jerry_6593 on 10/26/10

John Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564" as printed in the History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, pp. 828-29, by Philip Schaff [as published by Eerdmans in Grand Rapids, 1972], states: "I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...."(op. cit., p 829). Here is a clear John Calvin came to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ "SHED" his precious "BLOOD" "FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE "

Unfortunately, John Calvin seemed to DOUBT HIS OWN SALVATION!
---kathr4453 on 10/26/10

JERRY 6593 - 2 PETER 3,9 ------------That ANY should perish,.ALL should come to repentance.

( THE ALL wrote about here has to do with ALL that are CHOSEN )
JOHN 6,36 ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS GIVEN ME,and him that cometh to me I will in no way cast out.( You have to take in account every thing in the BIBLE or you do not have truth.)
( To eliminate - prediation - remnant - chosen - out of the Bible,What you end up is with another gospel than the Bible.You have to ask your self why should GOD save anyone: for ALL have sin.
---RICHARD on 10/25/10

Isn't is good to be in control of your own salvation! the view of election that God look down in time to see who would believe and then chose them means that you did the WORK of securing your salvation before God could do anything. This takes the grace of God out of the equation and replaces it with works.
On the other hand if God did the selecting before the foundations of the world as the Bible says grace and mercy are given before you ever were.
Some believe that the doctrine of election goes: God votes for you, Satan votes against you, and you cast the deciding vote. The truth is God elects who he will, Satan is in the wrong district and cant' vote, and you weren't there.
---Harold on 10/25/10

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The word says their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the beginning of the world.
---Frank on 10/24/10

Are names written of those never born( MORMONISM) OR is it the BOOK of the Lamb that begin at the foundation of the world?

I believe the BOOK existed from the foundation...and scripture never states names were written BEFORE the foundation. Now if one insists individuals were predestined BEFORE, then scripture would also state names were written BEFORE.

The first names written were Adam, Eve, Abel and today names are written as salvation continues to those who have placed in Jesus Christ.

---kathr4453 on 10/25/10

Martin Luther's teaching of iustification by faith only is right, and based on the book of Romaines, (Galatians, & c.). The Roman Catholics were furious with Martin Luther for this teaching.

Concerning the second question, yes. The word "predestinate" is in Ephesians 1:5. Respect it.

Certainly, Martin Luther and Iohn Caluin's message were not popular. They must have preached the true Gospel then.
---Kev on 10/25/10

This is the definition of predestination and also a crushing blow to those who believe in the doctrine of "free-will":

Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it,
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it,
I will also do it.

No commentary or explanation is needed. Amen.
---christan on 10/25/10

"IT has nothing to do with what any one says , IT,s what does the BIBLE SAYS."

Absolutely TRUE!

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

If the judgement were already made at creation as to who would be saved and who would be lost, then Jesus' mission to save the lost was a foolhardy one, and the entire message of the Bible is a monumental waste of time.

Worse yet, the god of the predestinationalist is a cruel one - creating children for the sole purpose of torturing them.
---jerry6593 on 10/25/10

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IT has nothing to do with what any one says , IT,s what does the BIBLE SAYS.

EPHESIANS 1,4 ACCORDING as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,------------
4,5 Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by JESUS CHRIST to himself,according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 THESSALIONIANS 1:4 KNOWING brethren beloved, your election of GOD,
JOEL 2:32 AND it came to pass that whatsoever,that whosoever called on the name of the LORD shall be delivered, for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall deliverance, as the LORD hath said,and in the REMNANT whom the LORD SHALL CALL.
---RICIHARD on 10/24/10

//Why do you guys always insist on leaving OUT the most important part of the verse?//

half and out-of-context use of verse drive false doctrine. many are trying to justify themselves by twisting verses and not using them correctly.

it is a type of control (reference Cain And Abel) instead of the second greatest commandment, which is like the first. the misuse of scripture and Truth was attempted by Satan in the wilderness with Jesus and the Garden of Eden.

Why do you people always insist on leaving OUT the most important part of the verse?

To stay on the high short.
---aka on 10/24/10

Justification by Faith is clearly taught by Paul in Romans 3 & 4 and Galatians 3 & 4. And Martin Luther's definition is in accordance to Paul's teaching.

As for Predestination, the greatest of this example is none other than that of Jesus Christ. Read Isaiah 53 and the Book of Psalms about the coming of Christ.

Predestination is basically a prophesy from God that will come to past. It will happen and must happen regardless of what mankind feels or thinks about. No one can thwart God's will.
---christan on 10/24/10

I agree with what Frank says.
---mima on 10/24/10

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The word says their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the beginning of the world.
It says those whose names are not written in the book are those who take the mark and serve satan.
It warns about having their names blotted out.
The Lord foreknew who would love him just as he foreknew Judas would betray him.
We don't. That's why we witness to show our faith.
---Frank on 10/24/10

I find the doctrine of predestination to be a bit confusing. As I understand it, this doctrine teaches that before creation some were "chosen" to be "saved" and some were "chosen" to be "lost". Millennia later, Jesus claimed to have come to "save" the "lost" - NOT the "chosen". Does this now logically mean that all predestinationalists (who always consider themselves among the "chosen") are actually LOST???

I also have difficulty reconciling the concept of a God of Love with the concept of His intentional creation of "children" for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them.
---jerry6593 on 10/23/10

Why do you guys always insist on leaving OUT the most important part of the verse?

Eph. 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world,

He didnt chose YOU outside of Christ. Christ is the ELECT. Gods ELECT and those who are "IN HIM" are called the elect.

Theres a reason why those words are there. Stop ignoring them. They contain a vital truth.

People OUTSIDE of Christ are unrighteous. Those who are IN Christ have been given HIS righteousness because we had none of our own.

Put down the tracks and footnotes written by man and open up the book and read it and come down off your high horse.
---JackB on 10/19/10

Mankind got caught up in the "performings" and "ceremonies", thinking that they were pleasing God and thereby they were justified in God's sight. But scripture says, what is it if a person gain the whole, feed all the hungry and clothe all the naked, yet they had no desire nor delight to do so, but were "only" following the rules of God because it was commanded or right. Therefore, "works without faith" will not justify you, and equally "faith without works" will not save you.

Predestination means that the righteous are predestined for salvation, and the wicked are predestined for damnation, and it is each souls free choice which and where their eternal destination will be.
---Eloy on 10/19/10

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In reading the words of this site, I can again attest why I became an Orthodox Christian entirely away from this theological banter about the nature of faith, grace, and salvation. If you want to know the truth, why dont you all just come back to the one true faith of the Orthodox Church. It is the unbroken line of the Apostles after all. The Church has ALWAYS taught, from the original Greek of the Apostles themselves - that we are first saved by God's Mercy, from that, we are called to faith and as a result of that true faith - good works manifest. Stop chewing eachother up with all this theological drivel, and I challenge you to now experience God's presence instead of judging eachother over intellectual ideas from other men!
---dyland on 10/19/10

Justification by Faith and Predestination are both correct scripturally and doctrinally.
---Phil_the_Elder on 5/24/08

lorra8574 *the softened version of Faith Alone used by some Protestants, including the Lutheran Church, is nearly identical to that taught by the Catholic Church.*

The conference between Roman Catholics & Lutherans at Wittenburg a few years back concluded that the views on justification by faith were almost the same.

But it is interesting that Rome did not like the position reached by their own theologians and denounced the conclusions of that council.
---lee on 5/10/07

Lee, the softened version of Faith Alone used by some Protestants, including the Lutheran Church, is nearly identical to that taught by the Catholic Church. We are justified by our Faith in Christ, no qualifications needed. But that is not what Martin Luther taught, nor what some on this site seem to believe. I go with what the Bible says, not the mentally edited version that some have adopted.
---lorra8574 on 5/9/07

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"Martin Luther did not much care for the epistle of James" - but who is Martin Luther to not care for a piece of the New Testament? Who is Martin Luther to judge? Especially when his judgement is so cold in excluding the role of caritas (charity of spirit / love) on behalf of the believer in salvation.
Luther was right to attack the pelagian abuses in the church at the time. But he went overboard - to the far extreme - in excluding caritas from salvation.
---Ed on 5/9/07

Ed - Martin Luther did not much care for the epistle of James but he did accept it as Scripture. His biographer Roland Bainton - "Here I stand" supports that contention.
---lee on 5/8/07

Martin Luther accepted this epistle for Catholics claim it to mean.
He just rejected it outright saying that James was wrong. How you get to where you do in your interpretation of it is beyond me.
St Paul (who Protestants argue opposed works) says that without Love everything is useless (including Faith). Since Love is as much about effort and action as it is about affection, patience, tolerance, forgiveness and so on - so Fide Solo cannot be enough.
---Ed on 5/8/07

lorra8574 - James addresses the faith that is not alive but dead. Those that have a faith that is alive will express that faith in good works.

Salvation is strictly a gift of God; not by works. In 1 Cor. 3, each person works will be tested, howbeit, if his works are burned up, "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
---lee on 5/7/07

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Lee, of course we must live by Faith. That is in the Bible and no one is disputing that, but the doctrine of Faith Alone is much more than that.

Mark 16:16 states clearly that we must believe and be baptised to be saved. You cannot just ignore what you don't like.

James 2:14-26 shows that faith without works is dead. This does not diminish the importance and necessity of Faith.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

Lee: John 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

2 Peter 3:15-16. Do not twist the scriptures to your own destruction.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

lorra8574 -*Was it really necessary for Jesus and His Apostles to spell out every detail of the Covenant every time they mentioned any part of it????*

No, just those things that are important. When the Bible states that we are to live by faith, there is no qualifier given on the word 'faith'. And that is where your problem lies. Of course, we Christians follow the Bible as much as possible; not the elitists of somebody's church - positions often gained by politics.
---lee on 5/5/07

Lee that only works if you ignore the rest of the NT. Was it really necessary for Jesus and His Apostles to spell out every detail of the Covenant every time they mentioned any part of it????

I don't know that we can overstate the importance of Faith to our salvation, but to ignore everything that belongs to Faith is dangerous.
---lorra8574 on 5/5/07

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Lee P2: Martin Luther wrote a letter that stated very clearly that to attempt to be good and avoid sin was a denial of Christ's free gift of Salvation and suggested that we would be damned for this insult to Jesus. He instructed his followers to "let your sins be as scarlet", perverting the very words of scripture. I have seen some similar ideas presented on some of the blogs here. Luther's teaching on Sola Fide is against the scriptures.
---lorra8574 on 5/5/07

We are justified by faith alone.

Please give me one verse that says we are justified by faith alone.
---Ruben on 5/4/07

lorra8574 - while the Bible says that the believer is "justified by faith apart from works of the law", there are no qualifiers on faith, it does not say faith + something else, thus 'faith alone'. So maybe old Luther & Calvin had it right after all.
---lee on 5/4/07

Phil the Elder is right and Martin Luther and John Calvin were both wrong.

The Scriptures clearly state that we are justified by faith, Romans 3:28, apart from works of the Law (i.e. circumcision). We are justified by our faith in Christ, how could we not be. But it does not say "by faith alone" - Luther added that to his mantra.

John Calvin was far too narrow in his views. 1 John 2:2. Matthew 22:1-14.
---lorra8574 on 5/4/07

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Eph. 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy & without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Some simply do not like the concept that God is sovereign - that He has foreordained those whom will be saved preferring instead the view that one always has free will to walk away from the love God has for us in Christ.
---lee on 5/2/07

It is clear that each man is to work out his oun salvation with fear and trembling. We are commanded to be doers of the word and not hearers. We are commanded to Walk in the Spirit. We are Told specificaly as Christians who will NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Lord will say to some "I never knew you". We are not to associate with a christian who walks recklessly. We are called to be holy. We need to live for God and take no chances as the road is narrow. jody
---jody on 5/1/07

Justification without works is correct if you are referring to salvation.(Ephesians 2:8-9)

We are justified(declared righteous) not according to our works.

Justification or walking in righteosness requires works(effort/lifestyle).

We are justified by faith alone. But if a person wants to say that work was reqired, Jesus did it.(2Corinthians 5:21)
---Rickey on 5/1/07

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