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Baptism Needed For Salvation

First Corinthians 1:17 says,"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." If baptism is necessary to salvation why does Paul make this statement?

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.mark, you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/9/07

.mark, God does not grant repentance, instead he Commands it. You either repent, or else you are condemned. That is the truth. "At the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now Commands All Humans every where to righten. Because he has appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; he has given assurance to all, in that he has raised him from the dead." Acts 17:30,31.
---Eloy on 5/9/07

.mark, again you speak falsehood. Jesus said, "NOT every one THAT SAYS up to me, LORD, LORD, will enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21
---Eloy on 5/9/07

Eloy you are so very wrong. Again with your words you speak false doctrines to everyone. Only one thing saves, the grace of God. It doesn't take or includes anything you have, for all you have is filth to God. Nothing you contribute is worth anything. How can a child of wrath contribute anything? You need to get save, in order to see the light. Repentance is a work alright, but does not come from man, for God grants for them to repent. Man does what God wants him to do. It is all of God.
---mark on 5/9/07

2. God has to grant that they will repent. "God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will." 2 Timothy 2:25,26. A person lost will never repent since he is captured by the devil. God has to come and make him able to repent. It is an act of God from first to last. "Repentance" this seems to apply to you since you have not repented of your past.
---mark on 5/9/07

Romans 6:3-4; Col 2:12; Acts 2:38

Acts 8:13-24 It is through baptism and the laying on of hands that we receive the Holy Ghost (the real one).

Ephesians 1:13 speaks of a "seal", we receive that seal at baptism.

Acts 10:43-48, they received the Holy Ghost in advance as a sign of God's approval, but it was still necessary to baptise them.

Why bother with baptism at all if it does nothing? If saying "I believe" is enough then why get wet at all?
---lorra8574 on 5/8/07

Rickey, P2: many like to trivialize the Word of God by claiming it is "spiritual" only and not literal or factual or relevant.

See 1 Peter 3:20-21.
---lorra8574 on 5/8/07

1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

21 "The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The symbol is the water.
---lorra8574 on 5/8/07

Irene, repentence is a work, just not a Work of the Law. The Thief repented of his sins and confessed the Lord Jesus as the Christ (another work) and asked Him to remember him (another work).

Catholics and some others do not believe that we "earn" our way into salvation. There is no reason why a true death bed conversion cannot lead someone to Heaven. But having the opportunity to be obedient to Christ and choosing not to is a far different matter.
---lorra8574 on 5/8/07

.elder, I care not what is in the degenerate mind.
---Eloy on 5/8/07

.jody, you still speak falsehood. If you refuse baptism, not only are you not fulfilling righteousness, but you are also being disobedient, and disobedience is not allowed into the kingdom of God, and you will have no salvation. JESUS SAID, "Whom obeys and is BAPTIZED WILL BE SAVED, but whom not obeys will be condemned." (lit.Gk: Mark 16:16).
---Eloy on 5/7/07

Paster Herb, on behalf those who are "handicapped" I am appalled. I have seen greater works from the so-called "handicapped", than I have seen from most able-bodied. I even include the mentally challenged. Such a one served most of his life in my church in every capacity that he could manage. He became my daughter's God Father, and on one was better suited. You judge by man's standards. If you dare to shepherd Christ's flock, you need to re-evaluate your standards.
---lorra8574 on 5/7/07

Matthew 16:16 is a scripture folks shouldn't argue about.

Common sense tells you through scriptures that water baptism is not required for salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 shows it.

All through the book of Acts no one had to be baptized to get saved.
They confessed Jesus as Lord.

Mark 16:16 wasn't putting emphasis on water baptism, but on faith in Jesus.
---Rickey on 5/7/07

Eloy, we do not disagree on maintaining our salvation by obeying God. I mentioned before, I exhort people to be baptised and to follow commands of Jesus. Jesus IS THE WORD. His WORDS must be in us. We must seek our salvation with fear and trembling. Where are you not understanding that we agree on that. However, baptism is a command but not unto salvation. We must obey commands. Do remember that all that we say, is what we will be judged by, if one is given alot more or different knowledge than others.
---jodyj on 5/7/07

.irene, Did you not read what I posted? "Repentance to Jesus saves." Don't you know that repentance is a work? or do you suppose that repenting to Jesus and asking him for salvation is some kind of automatic magic that happens without the persons doing or participating in anything?
---Eloy on 5/7/07

Eloy there is without a doubt in my and other Godly Saved peoples minds that you have TOO many gods.
You play all parts hunting for something you cannot obtain in your search because you reject the Person of Christ and His finished work. You always try to throw in your ability, talents and what you have done to your own demise and condemnation.
If you would talk to your own mind the way you speak to Gods people you might end your search and find the Salvation in Christ that He has for you.
---Elder on 5/7/07

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.herb, your nonChristian conjecture is predictable. The Almighty Jesus is perfect and just and above reproach; he whom looks upon the heart is both able to help the disabled, or else to condemn the disabled.
---Eloy on 5/7/07

I'm thinking why did not the "Sola Fides" remove all the parts of the gospel which Command Works to be done for salvation, and the whole book of James, even as they have removed other parts and whole books from the Holy Bible which they disagreed with? Perhaps it is because if they continue removing every thing they don't believe, then soon they will not have any thing remaining left of God's Word to believe.
---Eloy on 5/7/07

Herb You are so correct and have wrote so much truth. This is your best effort to date.
Eloy knows not what he believes. his belief changes from day to day. If someone doesn't believe his ramblings he just says they don't know God or him. We have seen him place himself in Jesus' place so many times.
We both know where this comes from.
Eloy is one that makes it hard for the unlearned to smell the roses. He is the thorn that keeps them away. There will be pay day someday.
---Elder on 5/7/07

.helen, I speak a foreign language to you because I speak the words of Christ, and you do not know him, nor me, nor him that sent me. And you bear false-witness, and you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 5/7/07

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.madison, pisteyo or pistos can be synonymous with peitho, commonly translated obey, believe, trust. When the followers asked Jesus what labor for God they should do. "Which answered Jesus and said to them, This being the work of God, that you obedient to whom sent that One, They said then to him, What then a sign do you, that we may see and may obey you? What do you work?" John 6:29,30.
---Eloy on 5/7/07

mary, Let me explain my preaching: Baptism IN JESUS saves, Repentance TO JESUS saves, Sacrifice FOR JESUS AND NEIGHBOR saves, Love OF JESUS AND NEIGHBOR saves, Grace FROM JESUS AND TO NEIGHBOR saves, Forgiveness FROM JESUS AND TO NEIGHBOR saves, Pity FROM JESUS AND TO NEIGHBOR saves, Prayer TO JESUS AND FOR NEIGHBOR saves, Worship OF JESUS saves, Doing JESUS'S Works saves, Obedience TO JESUS saves, as well as Faith IN JESUS and Belief IN JESUS saves. But faith Without Works is 100% dead. Read- MARK 16:16
---Eloy on 5/7/07

Lorra, "Sola Fide" what a damning doctrine. Do nothing and be saved. How gullible can a person be to believe such falsehood of slothfulness. I doubt if these deluded ones even know what means to, "Take up your cross and follow me". Perhaps they think it means wearing a diamond cross around their neck. Fruitless so-called Christians are worse then the heathen. And truly I tell you that each one will be thrown into hell fire for their disobedience to his Command to Do the works of Christ
---Eloy on 5/7/07

Lorra. Amen. The Scripture is true here for these deluded "Sola Fide" ones: "And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thessalonians 2:11,12.
---Eloy on 5/7/07

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The truth is, there is absolutely No salvation without works. All whom have no works are cursed by God and condenmed to the lake of fire, for their faith is in vain. ---Eloy on 5/6/07

I guess it is impossible for someone who is handicaped and unable to work to be saved because because of there handicap if works is part of salvation.
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

Eloy: Please tell us what works the thief on the cross did, as he repented and received salvation? Also, if there is no salvation without works, how do sinners receive salvation when they repent on their deathbed, seeing they aren't able to do any good works? Are you saying they won't go to heaven, even if they have repented of their sins?
---irene on 5/6/07

Eloy, how do you explain this?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

11. Is Baptism an act of SOVEREIGN GRACE performed by God or is it an act of righteousness on man's part? Matt. 3:15; Titus 3:5.
12. Were you redeemed by the precious waters of Baptism or by the precious BLOOD of Jesus Christ? I Peter 1 :18,19.
13. If Baptism LITERALLY puts one IN CHRIST, What act LITERALLY puts CHRIST in You? 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27; Rom. 3:24,25.
14. Did Jesus Christ know the plan of Salvation? John 14:6.
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

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15. Did Christ at any time or place personally tell a sinner to be baptized FOR or In ORDER to the Remission of Sin? If so WHEN and WHERE?
16. Did Christ personally, at any time or place say to anyone, He That is Baptized not shall be damned?
17. Is that Statement: HE THAT IS BAPTIZED NOT SHALL BE DAMNED, to be found anywhere in the Bible? If so . . . Where????
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

25. Is Baptism a command to and for the Saved or Unsaved? Which? Remember there is only ONE BAPTISM !
26. If to the UNSAVED are not the unsaved UNBORN OF GOD? Now, do you give commands to your child BEFORE IT IS BORN or AFTER it is born? Can an UNBORN child obey a parent?
27. Do you and your Brethren not teach that the COMMANDS of God are given to the UNBORN and that they, the commands are but instruments BY WHICH the UNBORN can obtain BIRTH?
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

29. If you say -Baptism is a command for the SAVED - you find yourself in the BAPTIST position, EXACTLY This you do not teach or believe. See Acts 2:41. WHO was baptized here?
30. Do you and your Brethren not also teach and believe- that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God until after His Baptism?
31. Whose Son was He in BETHLEHEM'S MANGER?
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

32. Is not the sum of your doctrine simply this: He that lives Closest to the creek, lives closest to the Lord? He that lives furthest from the creek, lives furtherest from the Lord? Does this not place the DESERT dwellers at a distinct disadvantage? Then a Man's Salvation would be simple or difficult according to his GEOGRAPHICAL location? Does this sound like Jesus Christ in John 3:16?
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

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56. If Peter preached Baptism, FOR or IN ORDER TO REMISSION OF SIN in Acts 2:38, why did he not preach the same thing to Cornelius in Acts 10:42,43?
57. In your sugar text which you yourself do not understand (Acts 2:38) how many words BETWEEN the word BAPTISM and the word REMISSION? You will have to cut 11 words out of your text before you can JOIN BAPTISM TO REMISSION OF SIN. What means these 11 words - which you and your brethren always avoid?
---Pastor_Herb on 5/6/07

Lorra8574 - Mark 16:16 says "..but he who does not believe will be condemned". John 3:18 "..he who does not believe is condemned already.."
---Helen_5378 on 5/6/07

r.w., the Theif on the cross did not have access to Baptism, and so received a special grace from Jesus. However, Jesus has died and resurrected since that discussion on the cross and baptism is an essential sacrament. Mark 16:16. Jesus can bestow special favours as He sees fit, but a denial of the necessity of baptism out of a misguided twisting of scripture is risky and foolish. 2 Peter 3:16. The "unlearned" are any who have not been instructed by proper authority.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

Wayne, it sounds like you only read one line in the NT, you really need to read the rest of it, especially the NT. Note also that Peter warns that Paul's writings are hard to understand. We are not saved by works, especially the "works of the Law" - that's the Mosaic Law to you, which Christians are no longer bound to. You do not have to be circumcised in order to be saved, but that does NOT mean that you just sit back ignore everything that Jesus said and did.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

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Helen, you get washed in the blood of the lamb when you are baptised. Baptism is the washing of regeneration. And this happens once. It is true that if you accepted Jesus but for some reason died before you could be baptised, but as least had the intention of being baptised, that would count. But you are reading only parts of the Bible and editing out what you don't like. It does not work that way.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

Helen P2: Mark 16:16, how do you think that the RCC got it wrong on that score? Just what is unclear about that verse that could possibly have led the Church astray and you to the "right" path?

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

The RCC does not teach "baptism alone" and never did.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

Eloy, Amen. Unfortunately "Sola Fide" is one of the main pillars of the Reformation. While some groups have softened it and accepted a form that is less damaging, many have accepted this as "dogma" and wagered their souls upon the tradition of a very troubled man. As a result they are diminishing even the Word of God when it does not fit their new found theology.
---lorra8574 on 5/6/07

Eloy: Explain this verse then.

John 6:29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
---Madison1101 on 5/6/07

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Eloy - I too would like to know just what book you are reading. You speak a foreign language to me, one I do not recognise. In your list of things that supposedly save, you have no mention of Jesus. You speak falsehood.
---Helen_5378 on 5/6/07

Eloy you were ask before by someone on line how many times can you be saved? You had previously said that you were saved three times for I read that comment too, and you lied when you said you never said that. Because you sinned by lying, are you now lost? You were not obedient so you must be lost now since you disobeyed God.
---bob on 5/6/07

Faith without works, as many have before answered already is false faith, but many just don't get it, or don't want to get it since they support the works of man as most Catholics and now many others do. Faith without works proves that faith is not genuine, but a false faith. The doers of works twist the verse around just as they have for a long time now. They want to show how great they are and how they don't sin. Only others do. Very self-righeous.
---mary on 5/6/07

Mima, everything Eloy said is false. None of those works save anyone. Faith in Christ, His death for our sins, His resurrection from the dead, and our repentance of those sins we commit against a holy God proves we are saved. It is by grace through faith we acknowledge Christ and repent. He is saying that if you work, or get baptized, or be good, without faith you can be saved. He needs faith in Christ first to acknowledg a Holy God. othewise he will never repent.
---mary on 5/6/07

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What if the person were a mute parapalegic? How would he work?
The Bible tells us we must be baptised with water and with the Holy Spirit.
If we are baptised by both, (not meaning speakinging in false tongues as a sign)the Holy Spirit will convict our hearts to desire to tell others about Jesus. If we do not have both, then we are not fully converted. Works can be a very subtle thing. If one is truly converted the works will come automatically.
---sandy on 5/6/07

Eloy - No, you are the one who is wrong here. Christians do works because they are saved, not to get saved. What you are saying means that Jesus did not do the whole job on the Cross.
---Helen_5378 on 5/6/07

Works is not always a deliberate act. When we are given our robes and our crowns of glory, the crowns will have stars on them according to our works, however the works did not get us to heaven! They are a sign of recognition from our Lord of our committment to serve Him. Some will have one star, some will have many. We should not work for these stars else they be for vanity. Works is an outward sign of the inward conversion. God and only God judges that.
---sandy on 5/6/07

Eloy - Wayne is correct. Also "the just shall live by faith" (Galatians 3:11). As Wayne said "not of works lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:9). "Whoever believes in Him should have everlasting life" (John 3:16). Salvation is all of Christ or it is nothing. It is Jesus' work, not yours.
---Helen_5378 on 5/6/07

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Eloy - ("Jesus is God, therefore he speaks in tongues.") -- Tongues were made for us to communicate with God. God has never had any need to speak in tongues. You speak falsehood.
---Helen_5378 on 5/6/07

.helen, you speak falsehood. The truth is, there is absolutely No salvation without works. All whom have no works are cursed by God and condenmed to the lake of fire, for their faith is in vain. The prophets preach it, Jesus preaches it, the saints and Apostles preach it, and I preach it. ~Do do do, work work work, obey obey obey; for it is the only way~. Please read Matthew 7:17-27; 25:41-46.
---Eloy on 5/6/07

.helen, The workless are Not saved, they are altogether condemned. Works perfects faith. Please read James 2:14-26. And if you still refuse to know that works are required for salvation, then that is your delusion that you are believing, and will result in your own condemnation as Jesus has said and as the word of God is written.
---Eloy on 5/6/07

.helen, Faith without works is 100% dead. The Bible is perfectly clear that if you have no works you have no salvation, and a workless believer might just as well believe in no God at all, for their faith is in vain. "And by works faith is made perfect." Please read James 1:22-25; 2:14-26.
---Eloy on 5/6/07

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.helen, Works is the Command; if you do no works & bear no fruit, you're disobedient, and you will be condemned no matter if you profess faith in Jesus or not.
---Eloy on 5/6/07

I will ask those who believe in a workless salvation: Was Jesus a doer of God's will, or was he just a faith-er of God's will. I must say, Only the doers are saved: for all the faith in the world will not, nor cannot, save a soul, without works. "For his doing to be created in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, which God who before prepared, that IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK." Ephesians 2:10. Walk in what? faith? No, but instead we read that we were made for good works, and to walk in them.
---Eloy on 5/6/07

Emcee. the bible does not say that baptism is a ceremony.
and" how we live in the here after determines our destiny"? I have no idea what you're talking about? and the "licence " where do you get these things? What bible are you reading?
---wayne on 5/5/07

Eloy. your works don't save you. you need to read your bible. It tells you how to be saved. Not of works lest anyone should boast.
---wayne on 5/5/07

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oh Lk3:16John Bapt. is saying how he baptizes w/water,but one coming who will baptize w/the Holy Ghost and w/fire.this passage states that there are at least 3 types of baptism. the baptismal regen. crowd assume every time the word baptise is written that it means to be dunked in water. not true.phillip told the eunich when asked if he could be baptized, phillip said , if thou believest, thou mayest. what happened to the thief on cross-he wasnt baptized(dunked) but went to paradise.
---r.w. on 5/5/07

.jody, again you do not speak truly. Jesus is God, therefore he speaks in tongues. Only the Doers are saved, and not the hearers only, and one of the Commands of Christ that we are to Do is, Get baptized in his Name. But if you think baptism is unnecessary for salvation, then you refuse it and you can face the consequences; however people whom contradict Jesus' Commands and also teach others so will be condemned.
---Eloy on 5/5/07

.jody, again you do not speak truly. Jesus is God, therefore he speaks in tongues. Only the Doers are saved, and not the hearers only, and one of the Commands of Christ that we are to Do is, Get baptized in his Name. But if you think baptism is unnecessary for salvation, then you refuse it and you can face the consequences; however people whom contradict Jesus' Commands, and also teach others so, will be condemned.
---Eloy on 5/5/07

Wayne::Baptism is only an iniation ceremony & its usage is to remove your previous sins ie 'an outward sign of Inward Grace"Your salvation is of your own making, its just a licence at being a christian,How you behave & live in the hereafter determines your Destiny.SO watch your thoughts which turn to words& in turn,turn to Actions & habits;Finally to character which determines your Destiny.Heaven OR HELL.Matt,9:13
---Emcee on 5/5/07

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Eloy - "Faith without works is dead" means that if you are truly born-again then works will naturally be part of your life. Otherwise your faith is dead, that is you are not born-again. Works do not contribute to salvation. Salvation is a finished work by Christ on the Cross and we receive salvation by faith and we stay saved by faith in Jesus' finished work.
---Helen_5378 on 5/5/07

Baptism saves, Repentance saves, Sacrifice saves, Love saves, Grace saves, Forgiveness saves, Pity saves, Prayer saves, Worship saves, Doing Works saves, Obedience saves, as well as Faith and Belief saves. But faith Without Works is 100% dead. Some are saved during baptism, some are saved after baptism, and some are saved before baptism, but nevertheless baptism saves. Again read- MARK 16:16.
---Eloy on 5/5/07

we get baptized because we are saved.
we don't get baptized to be saved, that would be our works saving us, and that can't be.
---wayne on 5/5/07

Emcee and Lorra, the Lord Jesus bless you both. A major false doctrine which has been effectively disseminated within the mainstream Christian churches today is the lethal "faith-only" doctrine. This half-truth professes that salvation is by faith only, works are vain and unnecessary, and do no works for salvation. But Jesus Commands, Do Do Do, and not be hearers only, deceiving yourselves; and the book of James is also repleat with this truth, "faith without works is dead."
---Eloy on 5/4/07

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Eloy, you are right. He is the Word. If His words do not abide in us then then we do not know Him. So he has a few Words. I think the few fish that he told each disciple to take from net and go out and feed the sheep is symbolic that we only need a few of His words to empower us for mighty works for His glory. Fishers of men. He did not come out of the water "speaking in other tongues" though. Preach Judgement. True. Careful on condemnation over doctrine. Gray area. Stumbling block.
---jody on 5/5/07

Eloy, who said that seeking salvation with fear and trembling was cheap? You are correct we need to follow Jesus to keep salvation. You need to come out from among Holy..serve costs everything. The time of your choice for salvation when the Holy Spirit Comes Alive In You and wittnesses of your sin and you humble yourself and accept Jesus and Know Jesus for the first time, is the day of your salvation. After that, there are many things we are commanded to do. Have we done them all?
---jody on 5/5/07

Eloy::I am in total agreement with you on this.No pain no Gain.Nothing defiled gets into heaven.NOTHING.Acts 28::24-28 is what we are dealing with.
Bruno ::Take note.
---Emcee on 5/4/07

Eloy, AMEN. Acts 2:28.
---lorra8574 on 5/4/07

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LOrra8574 - Salvation occcurs the very moment that a person believes and confesses that Jesus died on the Cross for their sins, then rose from the dead. The RCC wrongfully teaches that baptism saves. All that RCC baptism does is get the person wet on their forehead. Jesus Christ shed His Blood on the Cross for sin and He is the way, the truth and the life. There is salvation in Christ and Christ alone.
---Helen_5378 on 5/3/07

.jody, Jesus created tongues, so truly he speaks in tongues, both every tongue of earth which he created and also he speaks in the heavenly tongues of heaven which he also created. I am never careful about what constitutes requirements for heaven or hell, because I know exactly what the requirements are, even as I have already specified the requirements below.
---Eloy on 5/3/07

Helen, does repentance equal salvation? I would suggest that it is a good sign. But, if that person refuses to be baptised or obey Christ's commandments, that person has not been saved. Repentance is necessary for salvation, but it is not "salvation" in and of itself.

Acts 2:28 clearly states that we shall not receive the Holy Ghost until after we have repented and been baptised for the remission of sins. The exceptions in scripture are specific to their circumstances.
---lorra8574 on 5/3/07

Eloy,consider Jesus was baptized in the Spirit. He did not speak in tongues. Look at Jesus first before attempting to divide the Word as written by the apostles. Cults are teaching if one is not baptized in the Spirit with evidence of speaking tongues that they are doomed to hell. The tongues they speak of are gifts spoken of in 1cor.; a heavenly language,not the same ones which occured at pentecost. Stumbling Blocks. Careful about determing what constitutes requirements for Heaven or Hell.
---jody on 5/3/07

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This statement is what is caught in the Bible."From the Scriptures you quoted notice that it says to repent first. That means that salvation occurs first, followed by baptism." So it seems pretty clear that you do not baptize(such as infant baptism) before salvation.
---Mima on 5/3/07

Jesus Commands baptism in order to be saved. Jesus also Commands repentance and obedience to all of his Commands in order to be saved. Therefore salvation is never completed to any person whom does not Do the Lord's will: salvation is only complete to a person whom follows and obeys Christ's Commands, one of which is to be baptized. Please Read- Mark 16:16.
---Eloy on 5/3/07

Salvation is never a free gift, on the contrary it costs everything. You must surrender your whole entire life up to the Lord, and any part of yourself that you hold back from God is unacceptable. Nope, salvation is not cheap, but rather it is very very precious. Please Read- Luke 14:26-35.
---Eloy on 5/3/07

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