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10 Commandments In Force

A friend tells me that the law (the 10 Commandments) are in complete and full force to all who are lost. That is to people who have not accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior and are to depending on Jesus' righteousness to see them to heaven. Any comments?

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Samuel - Barnes notes may be useful in what 'fulfill' means in Mt. 5:17 -

But to fulfil. To complete the design, to fill up what was predicted, to accomplish what was intended in them. The word fulfil, also, means sometimes to teach or inculcate, #Col 1:25.

The law of Moses contained many sacrifices and rites which were designed to shadow forth the Messiah, #Heb 9:1-28. These were fulfilled when he came and offered himself a sacrifice to God-a sacrifice of nobler name,and richer blood than they.

The prophets contained many predictions respecting his coming and death. These were all to be fulfilled and fully accomplished by his life and his sufferings.
---Lee1538 on 9/3/08

Samuel the word fulfill has several meanings -

1. vt achieve something: to do what is necessary to bring about or achieve something expected, desired, or promised

2. vt carry out order: to do what is necessary to carry out a request or command

3. vt satisfy something: to be good enough or of the type necessary to meet a standard or requirement

4. vt complete something: to do what is necessary to complete or bring something to an end

5. vt supply something: to supply the full amount of something ordered

6. vr to realize ambitions: to feel satisfied with what you are doing or realize your expectations or ambitions
---Lee1538 on 9/2/08

Does "fulfill" mean "to do & keep on doing" or does it mean "do" in the sense that when it is done, it is accomplished & no longer needs to be done again?

Law refers to the Whole Torah.
1) to make full,
2) i.e. to complete

1) to make complete in every particular,
2) to carry through to the end, accomplish,

c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation,

1) of matters of duty:

2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish

3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
---Samuel on 9/2/08

MIC - *Thank you Lee for enlightening me by Mans way discerning historical findings...

The key here is whether or not Webster as a writer has documented his finding by reliable historical sources. I believe he has, based upon the extensive footnotes and references.

If you chose to ignore the findings of church historians, then you are free to remain an ostrich with its head in the sand. Why should anyone really care if your goal is simply to re-enforce your own bias & prejudice?
---Lee1538 on 9/2/08

Thank you Lee for enlightening me by Mans way discerning historical findings .You are free to make you choice and I am sure you will permit me to make mine,Gods word is truth. If Matt16:13-19 makes a declaration such as this by God Himself .I shall take His word in place of William Webster any day.God was there Webster was not.Peace be with you.
---MIC on 9/2/08

Lee1538, this nowhere stuff is heavy in the Gospels and Acts. Peter is seen by Jesus has the head. Jesus is always addressing Peter as the leader.
Read the Gospels,
All 4 Gospels name Peter first when calling out the 12 names. Do you think this was by accident. 4 writers naming Peter first! Matt 10:1-4, Mark 1:16,3:16,
Matt 8:14-15,16:13-19,17:1-8, Mark 9:2 Transfiguration of Jesus,
Matthew 17:24-25 Even other people besides Jesus knows Peter is head of the disciples.
Matt 16:23,Mark 8:33,Matt 17:21,Matt 19:27, 26:69-75
Peter's famous Promise and Denial.Matt26:33-35, Mark 14:29,66-72
At the Agony,V 37
Mark 1:36,Mark 5:37,11:21,13:3,14:37 He only questions Peter
Mark 16:7 Even the Angel knows who is head!
---Nicole on 9/2/08

Nowhere in the writings of the we see anything that Peter was annointed to be the supreme head of the church.---Lee1538

More on the Gospels showing Peter as head in Luke and John. Luke 4:38, A long writing of calling Simon by Jesus separate from 11 Luke 5:1-11,6:14,7:43,8:51,9:20,28-36,12-41,18:28
Jesus instructed Peter with John on the Passover.
Even Satan knows who is head and wants to take Peter out. Jesus said this Himself. Luke 22:31-34 Then Jesus tells Peter, after he denies Him, the is must strenthen the brothers. That sounds like leadership to me!
Denial 22:54-65 Resurrection 24:12

Jesus called Peter Rock. Cephas John 1:42
6:68,13:6-10 Last Supper V 24,36,
---Nicole on 9/2/08

Now in Acts, Peter is still in charge. Acts 1:13 Upper room Peter. V 15-26 Peter tells 120 people that Judas as to be replaced.
Acts 2:14-41 Peter stood up with Eleven, raised his voice-- Pentecost.
V 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized,
Acts 3:1-10 Healing. 3:11-26 another speech.
Acts 4:13-22, 5:1-11
V 12-42 Acts 9:32-43 Tells us about Peter passing through every region and healings.
Chapter 10 Gentiles are God's people V 34-49 another speech 11:1-18 Baptism of the Gentiles? Peter.
Chapter 12 Peter again.
Chapter 15 tells us that Paul and Barnabas concerning circumcision to the Council of Jerusalem. For who to decide? Apostles and Presbyters. Peter speaking as a Leader! Even Paul knows who is head.
---Nicole on 9/2/08

MIC - 3. Peter was SENT by the church with John on a mission to Syria - an unlikely event if Peter was the de facto leader.Acts 8:14.

4. Peter was actually REBUKED by Paul at Antioch for behavior which certainly would have compromised the gospel message. (Gal. 2:11-14).

5. Nowhere in the writings of the Apostles or even in the writings of the early church do we see anything that Peter was annointed to be the supreme head of the church.

6. None of the church fathers of the 1st 2 centuries can be cited as supporters of the RC interpretation of Mt. 16:18.

I would strongly suggest that you acquire a copy of 'the Church of Rome at the Bar of History' by William Webster, unless you have a deep fear of the truth.
---Lee1538 on 9/1/08

Nicole:Thanks for the welcome support and the heart felt appreciation that goes with it. Mic sounds like it is from down under where Mic stands for mike or even microphone there is an order where Priests sign their names with the Title MIC. It is up to you to discover what it represents. But I represent it to mean Motion in Christ.So Mark doubt no more I do not have a dual personality in MIC aka Brooks.I guess you owe Brooks an apology.
---MIC on 9/1/08

MIC - *"How will you answer the question when asked Why did you deny my word.?

He will not asked me why I denied His word since it is very clear there is nothing in His Word (even in church history) that would even indicate Jesus made Peter the de facto leader of the church.

There are several expectations that would have been met if Christ had given special powers to Peter.

1. We do NOT see Peter as the dominant figure, the supreme ruler and teacher in the church after the resurrection of Christ, nor do we see in the writings of the other Apostles any such recognition.

2. the book of Acts records that the Jerusalem council was presided over by James, the half brother of Jesus, not Peter.
---Lee1538 on 9/1/08

Mic, before you came to this website, I was accused of being two persons as well.

They claim two people were using the name Nicole.
One even asked me, 'why I was writing as if English was my 2nd language'.
I told them that English was my 2nd, but, I was still the same person.
Many started attacking me, until the Moderator had to take down the topic.

These were Christians.
Funny, because Trish and Frances were some of the ones claiming I was someone else.
Now MarkV is acting as if they are one person.

It's true, What goes around comes around.

As long as God and you know you are MIC, that's all you need.
I know you are Mic and not Brooks.
But, I don't count since I am Catholic.
---Nicole on 9/1/08

Mark :- "To erris human to forgive is Divine"Regret I am MIC motion in Christ.Not Brooks hope this solves your doubt.Brooks are defined as running water as in a babbling brook.I hope I do not Babble.You however deflected the question which awaits an answer.Very clever but anevasive ploy for untruth.
---MIC on 9/1/08

Lee You want to agree but on your terms.SORRY Peters confession, as you call it, or his answer did not make Jesus select Him as the Rock. But The Father in Heaven is that not so obvious to you!.Jesus acts in obedience to his Father.what Nicole says is also obvious "How will you answer the questioin when asked"Why did you deny my word.?
---MIC on 9/1/08

Mic, if you are Brooks why don't you just say you are Mic? Stop changing your name. You are answering me now as Mic.
I don't know what your arguement is now since I don't know who you are. It seems Trish is Frances, and nurseroberts is someone else. What are you guys doing?
---Mark_V. on 9/1/08

Nicole - *As for the Bishops of Rome, I have given Scriptures backing the handing down Authority. Acts 1:15-26 The choice of Judas' Successor.

None of those scripture even hint that any supreme powers were handed down to the bishops of Rome. In fact, if you beleive even Roman catholic historians, say Eamon Duffy, you would find that the early church in Rome was build upon the Jewish synagogues and elected its own leadership.
---Lee1538 on 9/1/08

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..that any authority was handled down to the bishops of Rome.--Lee1538

How can you start life at a Council that was started by you?
The RCC called the Council.

As for the Bishops of Rome, I have given Scriptures backing the handing down Authority.
Acts 1:15-26 The choice of Judas' Successor.

Are they going to replace the betrader, but not Peter?

My footnotes in my Bible states Luke's reason: 'The need to replace Judas was probably dictated by the symbolism of the number twelve, recalling the twelve tribes of Israel. This symbolism also indicates that for Luke (see Lk 22:30) the Christian Church is a reconstituted Israel.'
---Nicole on 8/31/08

Nicole - *They Church is not built on peter, but on the confession of Peter.--Lee1538 8/29/08 Are you not afraid of God? You just added to the Scriptures.

If you were to take the time to read my post you would notice that I was referring to one interpretation by St. Augustine. Did he add to scripture?

It is without any rationale whatsoever that Jesus would build His church on someone as frail of a man as Peter.

In any case, you are without any substantial argument whatsoever that any authority was handled down to the bishops of Rome. Neither history nor scripture can be used to support your unique belief.

The Roman Church as a denomination had its birth with the Council of Trent.
---Lee1538 on 8/31/08

They Church is not built on peter, but on the confession of Peter.--Lee1538 8/29/08

Are you not afaid of God?
You just added to the Scriptures.

Jesus told Simon about his confession.
Jesus states He know His Father in Heaven told Simon because of his confession.

So, Jesus decided to change his name to Peter. Then Jesus states He will build His Church on this rock. (Singular)

You all are so stubborn! If Peter in Aramiac means rock. They are capable of speaking their natural flowing language.
then Jesus repeats the same word in the sentence. How can you you deny this?.

Common Sense. At Judgemet you will look very silly when Jesus asks "Why did you reject the obvious?

What will you say to Him?
---Nicole on 8/30/08

*They Church is not built on peter, but on the confession of Peter.

That was offered as a possible interpretation of Matthew 16:16-18 by none other than St. Augustine.

However, Roman Catholics do not always support what Augustine believed, in fact he even wrote his Retractions reflecting beliefs he changed his mind on. One wonders if he should have done another edition of his Retractions.
---Lee1538 on 8/29/08

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Since when does the RCC have the right to change God's laws?? I love scripture, but the RCC doesnt follow scripture.
---wayne on 8/29/08

You are speaking in vague terms.

RCC has not changed any of God's laws.
Be more specific.
What law do you think was changed?
RCC follows the Scriptures.
We read chapters of the Scripture every Sunday.

Tell me where we didn't follow a verse?
In fact, we have the complete Scripture.
You are missing 7 books of the OT.

If you Scriptures, then you will love the 7 books that Luther removed.
---Nicole on 8/29/08

Mark:I wish you would read your posts b/c you sometimes revolt against His "I said that Mankind (The lost)is in a covenant of the works of The law?(Meaning what)They have broken it and need redemption?"They need a perfect sacrifice". (Really was not Jesus sacrifice good enough for all Time)What is a "covenant of Grace",where is it mentioned in the Bible.I really wish to understand but this is confusing.
---MIC on 8/29/08

Amen Wayne the rcc doesn't have anything to do with Gods or His Holy Word

rcc make their subjects submit their minds and wills to a flesh and blood man ...remember the are TOLD what to think and what to believe and the repetition of idol prayers makes their brainwashing a powerful force in their lives ...led away by another spirit they cannot hear or see what you or anyone else write's about their beloved church because they worship the church and Mary YET profess Christ on their lips and don't even comprehend the difference
---Rhonda on 8/29/08

The RCC has nothing to do with the word of God. They changed the commandments, They ( The Popes ) have stated they have the power of God. They Church is not built on peter, but on the confession of Peter. Peter was never the Bishop of Rome, He was the Bishop of Antioch. Catholics worship Mary, Idols, Bread, and the list gos on and on.
---wayne on 8/29/08

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Since when does the RCC have the right to change God's laws?? I love scripture, but the RCC doesnt follow scripture. I do not get mad over our little discussions, In fact I would imagine your probably a good person and very devout in your beliefs. So do not think Im putting you down, we just do not agree on some things. Iam a priest myself but not for Rome. I have read some very ancient documents, I know alot of Catholics who do not wish to study thier own church's true history and compare it to scripture. The doc's I speak of are by Catholics and its not favorable.
---wayne on 8/29/08

Brooks, I believe and know you are wrong. I never said people were not saved in the Old Testament. From the fall of Adam People are save by grace through faith. They had faith in the coming Christ. We have faith in the Christ who has come and sacrificed Himself for our sins.
I said mankind (the Lost) is in a Covenant of works of the law. They have broken it and that is why they need redemption. They need a perfect sacrifice. Everyone owes a debt and once they believe in Christ they are under the Covenant of Grace and their debt is paid by Christ on the Cross. Sorry brooks. Many people were saved in the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/08

Mark, I believe you are mistaken. If all in the OT were under the covenant of works then none would be saved as no one can completely obey the laws of God. Abraham was considered righteous because he believed the promises of God, not because he obeyed the laws of God to the letter. If you broke one you broke them all. The OT covenant and the NT covenant are exactly the same. Believing God is the way to heaven both for the Jews of old and the Christians. We in the NT times must believe the promise of God of His Son being our Savior.
---Brooks on 8/29/08

Mima, your friend is right. All that are lost belong to the Covenant of works. The original Covenant between God and mankind was a Covenant of works. In this covenant, God required perfect and total obedience to His rule. He promised eternal life for obedience, but threatened mankind with death ( spiritual, and physical death) for disobeying God's law. All Mankind is in a covenant relationship with God. The Covenant of works is the basis of our need of redemption. Why? Because we have violated that Covenant. A single sin is enough to violet the covenant of works. All believers by faith are under a Covenant of Grace. Because God has fulfilled the terms for us when we came to Christ, because we could not under the law fulfill it.
---Mark_V. on 8/29/08

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Wayne, I answered your question you post. I didn't blast you. I answered using Scriptures.
Are you mad because I used the Bible?

Acts 9: 4-6, Why did Jesus ask him why he was persecuting Him? Saul knew Jesus see the Church as Himself.

Matthew 16:19 Whatever is whatever. RCC make the official day of worship on the first day.
The day Jesus rose from the death.
Victory for humankind.

We celebrate July the 4th, as the Victory over England.
But, we can't do the same for Jesus?
Go to Church on Saturday if you wish.

Matthew 10:14 Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words-go outside...

Matthew 10:40 Whoever receives you receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives the One who sent Me.
---Nicole on 8/28/08

Wayne:-Sir The RCC is Gods word if you do not acclaim this,it does not make you Right, but tends to show you disapprove of Gods action in creating His Church in Matt16:13-19.Would you agree or willfully dispute His word? God said KEEP my commandments Not to follow the understanding alone.
---MIC on 8/28/08

Where in scripture does Yeshua say follow the church. Yeshua said to follow the commandments. The church does not follow the commandments, period. Doesnt matter if you agree or not, truth is truth. The church saves no one, God saves. You look to the church and thier version of Yeshua, I will look to Yeshua and His Fathers commandments. Sunday is not the sabbath, no where are we commanded to keep it. The Apostles kept the law, why dont we? Truth hurts doesnt it. You blast alot of people on this forum, but yet you have nothing but mens traditions to back you up.
---wayne on 8/28/08

You seem to be the type of christain to say , well my church says so. Is this the excuse you will use when standing before God, the church told me to? Why follow the church and not God's word?
---wayne on 8/25/08

Because following the Church is being obedient to Jesus' Command.
He said, following the Church is following Him.

Matthew 16:19
John 15:20
Acts 9:4-6
---Nicole on 8/27/08

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Act's 13:42-44
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

This is about 20 yrs. after the resurection of the Messiah(the Christ)and their still observing the Sabbath Day...
---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 8/27/08

Our Lord defends his disciples when the Jews attacked them for not observing the Sabbath, ending his comments by saying: "For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath" (Mt. 12:18). Or again, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk. 2:27). The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Lk. 13:1016, 14:15, Jn. 5:918, 7:22) suggests that the he was not pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed.

Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jn. 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later on Sunday the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

Catholic Answers.
---Nicole on 8/26/08

since when are you obligated to keep sunday holy? Scripture says the Sabbath is the 7th day, not the first day. You are following the traditions of men. The sabbath was given even before the law so it is enforce until Heaven and earth pass away. You seem to be the type of christain to say , well my church says so. Is this the excuse you will use when standing before God, the church told me to? Why follow the church and not God's word?
---wayne on 8/25/08

TS - *...I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone....*

In this case, the RomanChurch is true to what is stated in Scripture; namely that there is no such law requiring Christians to observe Sunday or for that matter any day of the week. Romans 14:5-6.

Christians since the beginnning of the 2d century had communal worship on Sundays in accordance to the traditions established by the Apostles themselves. 2 Thess. 2:15.
---lee on 8/25/08

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Helen-I know you know that by following the Spirit(if sinful nature were also gone)we'd have no thought to commit sexual immorality,steal,murder,lie,or covet or any sin.I know you know that. If you somehow define that as NOT keeping commandments,I don't understand it.

I do know that God's laws are written on our hearts.
How do you explain Hb8:10-13 telling us His law is on our hearts? What are we supposed to do with that except follow the Spirit which leads us to keep those commandments?
---sheila on 5/31/07

"But if we are truly led by the Holy Spirit, He will transform us into the image of Christ" He will do that if we obey His commandments and love the Savior with all our hearts, minds and souls. How many people do you know though that avoid evil at all costs. Live by example so others can see Christ in their countenance. Or do you see many that profess to love him and then commit every sin under heaven, believing they are saved. food for thought.
---ashley on 5/31/07

But if we are truly led by the Holy Spirit, He will transform us into the image of Christ. And that would mean that all the moral attributes found in Christ will eventually be found in us. We will be holy like unto Him. Our job is not to grieve the Spirit but cooperate in His leading.

Our Adventist friends, on the other hand, would object to the fact that the Holy Spirit would not lead us into observing the Jewish sabbath unless that were necessary to our ministry.
---lee on 5/31/07

Sheila - We are to be led by the Holy Spirit and He never will lead us to keep any laws. The Law was done away with when Jesus' died on the Cross. We have been set free from all of that when we became born-again.
---Helen_5378 on 5/31/07

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Nana - Read Romans 3:10 again for yourself. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." See also Romans 3:21-26.
---Helen_5378 on 5/30/07

Helen-Some in OT knew Christ.Some now can know Christ the same way(by seeking God as in Rm2:14-16,keeping His laws He has on their hearts).

This ISN'T the gospel to spread though!Jesus died for us so that all who believe(trust)in Him will have eternal life!What a blessed message for those following law naturally by what He has written on their hearts(&be born again)!&what a blessing for those to believe who WEREN'T following His law,but He calls to be born again &then follow law by His Spirit!
---Sheila on 5/30/07

Eloy is correct in his statement as far as my understanding can see. From my understanding I say to you that no one gets
imputed a thing, let alone righteousness.God
does not say a word in Romans 3:10.
---Nana on 5/30/07

Eloy - ("the righteous by nature who never heard the gospel;") -- God says in Romans 3:10 that "There is none righteous, no, not one;". There is no such thing as a person who is righteous by nature. Jesus Christ is the only one who is righteous, and you have to be in Christ to have His righteousness imparted to you.
---Helen_5378 on 5/29/07

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Three kinds of people who go to hell: the wicked by nature who never heard the gospel; the person who heard the gospel, but rejected it; and the backslider who never repented or returned to the Lord. And three kinds of people go to heaven: the righteous by nature who never heard the gospel; the born-again Christian; and the backslider who repented or returned to the Lord.
---Eloy on 5/29/07

2-4 If law in Matthew meant the 10 commandments including Sabbath observance, & fulfill meant do & keep on doing, then Christ taught that one must live in harmony with the law since not even the smallest letter or stroke is to be removed from the law.
---lee on 5/28/07

3-4 I believe Jesus was referring to the whole law in Matthew 5; the entire writings of Moses (the Torah).

Being that much of the law was sacrificial offerings & ceremonies, things that were mere shadows that pointed forward to His ministry & sacrifice, then it had to be fulfilled in the sense of being accomplished.
---lee on 5/28/07

4-4 On further thought, since Matthew 5 refers to the Old Covenant law, and if the law were to continue then the New Covenant would be nothing less than an amendment to the Old.

Since the Old Covenant was declared to be obsolete (Hebrews 8:13), how then could something that declared obsolete be amended? It would violate the concept of what a covenant is.

The New Covenant was a replacement in its entirety to the Old Covenant.
---lee on 5/28/07

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Another thought on Matthew 5:17-19. If it be that "until heaven & earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished". Then the church erred when they decided that Gentiles need not be circumcised, and we still need to observe all the Mosaic Law including Sabbath observance.
---lee on 5/28/07

Michel - *Your aptitude to customize your religion to your own liking is truly amazing!*

That 'customized religion' you credit me with is basically what orthodox Christianity holds to be true.

Adventism, on the other hand, is a relatively new religion having its origins in the debacle of 1844 when Miller predicted the 2d coming of Christ.

Clearly Adventism with its new doctrines does not reflect "that faith once for all delivered to the saints". Jude 3.
---lee on 5/28/07

1- 4 The meaning of the text Mt. 5:17-19 hinges on 2 key words - law & fulfill.

Does "law" refer to 10 commandments or does it refer to the whole old covenant (the Torah)?

Does "fulfill" mean "to do & keep on doing" or does it mean "do" in the sense that when it is done, it is accomplished & no longer needs to be done again?
---lee on 5/28/07

Michel-Don't say*follow these C's*unless you explain your convoluted way of dividing ALL of God's law into categories of being 10C's(&Bible DOESN'T say the law hangs on 10C's!)&how ordinances nailed to cross were NEVER of God's law(at very LEAST angels gave Moses those laws&God told the angels what to tell Moses,it's ALL God's law!)

*But if ye be led of the Spirit,ye aren't under the law*
How much plainer can Gal.5:18 be!What C do you have to read in writing or hear in order to follow it???
---Sheila on 5/28/07

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Your aptitude to customize your religion to your own liking is truly amazing!

"Christians beleive that our call is to be obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit."
Nice words; what do they mean?
You're forgetting John16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes [...]. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears" - What he hears from Jesus. The Spirit will NEVER contradict Jesus, and Jesus said the Law will not pass until heaven and earth do!
---Michel on 5/27/07


You keep skirting Mat 5:17-19, avoiding it like the plague - could it be because it does not fit your customized religion?
If the Law is not part of the NC and therefore does not apply to us, for whom is Jesus vowing to keep it until the end of the earth??? Does this make any sense to you?
---Michel on 5/27/07

Michel - *We are called to be obedient NOT to be saved...*

And while Adventists claim that we are called to be obedient to laws from a Covenant that has been declared obsolete and not found in the New Covenant, Christians beleive that our call is to be obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
---lee on 5/27/07

Michel-Right!Obey CUZ we love God,NOT to be saved!
We're led by Spirit in us to obey God out of faith which worketh thru love.God's law is on our hearts.Don't need it used in words to follow(For me it helps against sinful nature to readC's too!)But EVERY C of God(10C&MORE)that's in NC is about loving our neighbor!(Rm13:9)

Esp.keep new C.It's so profound&brings golden rule to immeasurable love: *A new commandment I give unto you,That ye love one another;as I have loved you...*Jn13:34
---Sheila on 5/27/07

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Michel-You say Sabbaterians don't observe the Sabbath TO BE SAVED.

So then you don't call the weekly 7thDay God's seal of salvation.And you rightly recognize that it is the receiving of the Holy Spirit (our rebirth as a child of God)is our seal of salvation.You realize that NO ONE is granted to have authority over ANY of God's 7days,no matter who the liar is claiming to have authority.You realize the mark of the beast CAN'T be one of God's 7 days.

---Sheila on 5/27/07

"those "cheap shot" continually hit the middle of the bullseye!"

On the contrary, the statement that Sabbaterians observe the Sabbath TO BE SAVED is not only factually incorrect, but totally ignorant. We are called to be obedient NOT to be saved, but because WE ARE SAVED by God's grace through Jesus' blood. I already quoted you 1John2, but you and yours conveniently "forget" it. Problem is: that perspective does not suit you, so you blatantly ignore it.
---Michel on 5/27/07

You forgot the first part:
"Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment." [...] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

This is what keeping the Sabbath has to do with: Loving the Lord your God.
---Michel on 5/26/07

Lee, JohnT,
BTW, what do you think this "Law and Prophets" is that Jesus mentions in Mat. 22:40?
Ever wonder how come it was Moses and Elijah that visited with jesus upon the Transfiguration? Could it be the same representation of the Law and the Prophets?

Now why would Jesus and the Gospel writers talk about something that was going to be made obsolete a few months later at the cross, according to you???
---Michel on 5/26/07

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Lee, JohnT,
"Your interpretation of Matthew 5:17-19..."

Forget my interpretation, I am a cultist, remember?
But what it YOURS???
9 months ago, you said it refered to "Jesus' law" (love your God/neighbour). Only one problem: Jesus talks about a WRITTEN law in Mat.5. So which is this law that shall not be changed until heaven & earth pass? And how is that relevant to me since, according to you, the law has been nailed to the cross? Hhmmm...
---Michel on 5/26/07

Michel - *You must really get high on SDA-bashing to be doing it so excessively!*

Well be honest with me, do you think that the Lord's annointing has been sufficient to keep some from falling into Adventism?
---lee on 5/26/07

Michel - *I could never figure out your beef with the 10 C.'s:...*

Romans 13:9 9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, & any other commandment, are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

And what does keeping the Jewish Sabbath have to do with love of neighbor? Clearly nothing!

And that is why you will not find even a hint of a command for the church to keep the Sabbath!
---lee on 5/26/07

*...that's just a cheap/easy shot that you and your gang enjoy taking - over and over and over again...*

But you have to acknowledge the fact that even those "cheap shot" continually hit the middle of the bullseye!

*If Jesus had such a problem with them, then why Mat. 5:17-19?*

Your interpretation of Matthew 5:17-19 would mean that even all the ceremonial laws, sabbath keeping, circumcision, dietary laws, & other Mosaic laws would still be in effect.
---lee on 5/26/07

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You must really get high on SDA-bashing to be doing it so excessively!
I could never figure out your beef with the 10 C.'s: here are words written by Jesus' own hand - the only such hard record from God to man - and you make a mockery of them? If Jesus had such a problem with them, then why Mat. 5:17-19?
---Michel on 5/25/07

SDAs (and other Sabbaterians) never said that the 10 C. replace/exclude/absolve from love towards God and towards Man, that's just a cheap/easy shot that you and your gang enjoy taking - over and over and over again...
Instead of conveniently putting words in people's mouth or generalizing from a bad childhood experience, how about you ask Sabbaterians what they REALLY believe? And then listen with an open mind, for a change?
---Michel on 5/25/07

Lee-So true!Thank you!People doing loving actions to be saved by their works&so lack love;they have made law an idol.Then lack of love is sin by committing idoltry.

I was referring more to an apathetic person doing right thing cuz it's the right thing to do,yet lack love,yet don't expect reward.Is lack of love a sin in that case?Like what if Samaritan in Lk.10 was just really going thru the motions recognizing his actions as something he ought to do,even if he didn't feel any love in doing it.
---Sheila on 5/25/07

Linda-Thank you for your nicely detailed explanation to Jerry! It had me thinking upon the Truth within it as well!
---Sheila on 5/25/07

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"Don't you believe that forgiveness is dependent on both the commission and the repentance of sin?"

Forgiveness of sin is solely dependent on the sacrifice. Don't recall Adam repenting (he was hiding) before God clothed him with the skin that came from a sacrifice. Some animal had to give his life for that coat.

"In whom we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, even the forgiveness of sin."
---Linda on 5/25/07

Jerry-Don't know why you're asking Linda whether forgiveness of sins is dependent on our confession of them.I answered you before regarding our future sins.Jn3:16 clearly shows that if there be sins that for whatever reason you didn't repent of( died,you didn't know about it)by belief in Christ(trust,which demons DON'T have in Him)you'll be saved.&1Co.15 tells of how sin within us will ultimately perish.We confess of our sins so we can start afresh in serving God,rather than drag burden of sin.
---Sheila on 5/25/07

While we were STILL sinners and enemies, God forgave us through Christ.
Forgive as Christ forgave you....
(very simple to understand)
---duane on 5/25/07

Sheila - in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Lk. 10), both the priest & the Levite most likely were good commandment keepers but in passing the injured man by, the Lord found fault them bec they had no love in their hearts for their neighbor; only for themselves.

They were obedient to the law because the law became their idol much like the Adventist view the Sabbath or 10 commandments.

Love is the fulfillment of the law - Romans 13:9.
---lee on 5/25/07

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Jesus was the Lamb slain from before the very foundation of the world. Before Adam sinned, God already had the provision...and manifestly covered Adam and Eve with it before they were driven out of the garden. Notice that God did that, not Adam and Eve. They made aprons of fig leaves. God clothed them with a sacrifice....and they didn't even have to ask Him to. He is provider by nature.
---Linda on 5/25/07

They were covered even though they didn't experience the benefit of that covering and sin continued to reign. Well, can't say they didn't experience any benefit...they didn't physically die for a VERY long time even though they had no life in their spirits. That couldn't happen again until Jesus was raised from the dead as Lord. The truth is that the provision has been made for all men and, by the death of Jesus, all men have been reconciled in the mind of God. That is the way He sees it.
---Linda on 5/25/07

When a man confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, man accepts and enters into a provision that has already been made and accepts the new life of the resurrected and seated Christ. Turning to Jesus is repentance and that only requires "Lord" and believing. When the focus is on turning from your sin instead of turning TO Jesus, then all you think about is sin. When the focus is on turning to Jesus, then the Son is in His rightful place as Lord.
---Linda on 5/25/07

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