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Perversions Of The Bible

Our church has started our Ladies' Bible study with Kay Arthur's book, "Lord, Give Me a Heart for You'. Our greatest concern about this study is the fact that Kay does not use the King James Bible. How can we 'earnestly contend for the faith" by using 'perversions' of the Bible?

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 ---Debi on 7/3/07
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Susie: Besides, with all these daily activities, how can a person possibly hear the whispers of God? Communication is a two way street, but many Christians have their life so filled with activities, that when they pray, pray, pray they don't have time to listen, listen, listen. So what's the point in trying to develop a true loving relationship with God? Could you develop a true earthly friend if you do ALL of the talking?
---Steveng on 4/29/08

Warwick::I really dont know what You are discussing any more .If you equate a cave man with a college Graduate.Now you bring in Vocabolary: Badminton is played with one Birdee not 3-would that be intelligence,knowledge Or vocabulary.Did Adam have the intelligence, Knowledge & or vocabulary to refuse a bite from the apple?
---Emcee on 7/15/07

Debi, You could take a bunch of KJV Bibles with you to hand out to the ladies, to freely keep as their own gifts, explaining that it would be better to all use the same Bible when gathered for Bible study, and that you favor this one.
---Eloy on 7/15/07

Eloy::It shines as bright as the famous star "Your Pride"which will yet have a downfall.You are human ,not what you yourself proclaim, you have no apostolic succesion or standing & least of all charity .You are not the good Samaratin but a levite & we know how God looked on them.
---Emcee on 7/14/07

Emcee- there's a greater store of knowledge today but this isn't intelligence. There's every reason to believe Adam & his progeny were more intelligent that we. Knowledge isn't intelligenmce- two very different things.

In reality though there is a greater store of knowledge today individual people know little nor understand it. Comparisons of vocabulary have been done between people of the past & those today, showing the majority of people today have a very limited vocabulary.
---Warwick on 7/14/07

.emcee, Your words are not of God. I am not defeated, and it would certainly take more than a carnal idolater, or even a thousand idolaters, to try to defeat the dunamis of God.
---Eloy on 7/14/07

.emcee, you need to get saved, and unless you get saved you cannot see the kingdom of God.
---Eloy on 7/14/07

Eloy:: your statement "I posted about idolatory on assumption"Is ambiguous, & contradictory.I know you mean well & want to be right but cancelling me out as Catholic & not christian defeats your purpose again.I offer a friendly hand & you return a snake.
---Emcee on 7/13/07

Warwick:Based on the advancement in this universe from genesis to now I would offer this as proof of my state4ment.From the stone age to the automated more informed era.Unless you want to compare a caveman to a young college graduate.
---Emcee on 7/13/07

.emcee, I have not based any thing I posted about idolatry upon assumption, but my words are his words, and what I have posted is founded upon the truth and upon the Holy Scripture: but since you are a catholic and not Christian you will believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 7/13/07

Emcee where do you get the idea people in the past were less intelligent than people today?

Considering that we are the result of about 6000 years of the curse I think it reasonable to consider the ancients to be much more intelligent that we are.

We are not supposed to have images of animals or people in our churches are we?
---Warwick on 7/13/07

Eloy::First part of your post is true But the second is assumption based on human intellect.Your perception of Idols is different to what were considered Idols, strange images in those days as people were not intelligent.People are educated, hence more judgemental-which is worse is hard to say-The statues we see in Rc Churches are replicas of Jesus Mary some saints who have proved their allegiance .These now become intecessors, although in statue form, are not worshiped but used as intecessory factors.
---Emcee on 7/12/07

It really comes down to this: Jesus said, "If you all love me, My Commandments keep." Both testaments say, CHOOSE this day whom you will serve. Idolaters do not go to heaven and they are not Christian, no matter if they wrongly call themself Christian or if they are deluded into wrongly believing that they are Christian. You cannot serve idolatry and Christ. So CHOOSE this day which one you will serve. Do you want Christ? or do you want your false religion: You cannot have both.
---Eloy on 7/12/07

AlanofUK - ("when you say that no RC can be saved.") -- If a RC gets truly saved then there is no way they would be able to stay in the RCC. Once saved a person's spiritual eyes are opened and it is horrifying what one then sees. So they would see all the idolatry and heresy of it and would be compelled to get out of there. It troubles me greatly that you can not see any of it Alan.
---Helen_5378 on 7/10/07

Helen ... I think you must have already known that I do not pray to Mary, because I have had much discussion with Emcee and other RSs about this, and also about her being ever sinless, and a perpetual virgin.
I Have argued against these ideas much much more than I have ever argued against your idea that Mary was not even Jesus's full earthly mother, but just a vessel into which He was placed
---alan_of_UK on 7/10/07

No Helen I do not pray to Mary and this is one of the areas where I think the RC is wrong.
I also see that there are within the RC some who claim total exclusiveness or and of the RCC, in the same way that that you would exclude them totally.
One such has recently joined in our discussions! I think she is as wrong when she says only the RCC can interpret as you are when you say that no RC can be saved.
It all depends I suppose on what we define as core belief.
---alan_of_UK on 7/10/07

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AlanofUK - ("I doubt whether there is a hair's breadth difference in the true core beliefs") -- So, do you pray to Mary too?
---Helen_5378 on 7/10/07

You cannot 'earnestly content for the faith' by using a version of the Bible that has archaic language in it as people simply do not understand it.

Recommend that you pick good literal modern versions of the Bible and compare the different nuances of the Scripture.
---lee on 7/10/07

Tell the leader of the Bible study to use the KJV, requiring that every member use the same Bible to avoid confusion. Have no care if they use "other" bibles outside of the gathered Ladies' Bible study, but when you all come together agree to all use the self-same Bible. If they refuse, then drop out for their refusal of the "Holy" Bible. Perhaps start your own Bible Study inviting woman with the requirement of using the same kind of Bible, and possibly even provide the Bibles for them
---Eloy on 7/10/07

Helen ... still trying to work out why you want me to define an Anglican Christian.
I had used the phrase originally to show my belief that Catholics are Christians.
There are catholic Christians, anglican Christians, baptist Christian, methodist Christians, lutheran Christians, pentescostal Christians, and so on.
I doubt whether there is a hair's breadth difference in the true core beliefs.
It's all the add-ons, and we all, including you, have these.
---alan_of_UK on 7/10/07

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Alan Of UK:Friend I see the emotion,& agree You are like the book says true blue & will be rewarded for it by one who knows hearts.I sympathise & understand.some things are hard to bear & understand.My prayers are with you.
---Emcee on 7/9/07

Emcee ... I was sad that the mother Superior clearly thought that Christisnity is quite different to Catholicism, maybe to the extent that it is heathen.
In the same way that some here clearly believe that Catholicism is satanic.
I don't think there is rejoicing of any kind when a true Christ loving Catholic becomes a Protestant, or vice versa.
But there is rejoicing when a non-believer becomes either.
---alan_of_UK on 7/9/07

Helen ...# 1 An Anglican Christian believes that Christ died for us, and has accepted that gift of life with great thanks and seeks to serve God.
Anglicans would tend not actually to use the word "saved" very much, because they know that that is what Christian means.
There are of course many "nominal" Anglicans, as there are of any denomination.
I suggest the proportion of "saved" to "nominal" is similar in all demominations.
---alan_of_UK on 7/9/07

Helen ...# 2 But the "saved", as you would call them,or "real believers" as I might call them, or "born again" as others call themselves, in some denominations would not actually use the word, because to them when they say "I am a Christian" it is implicit that they are saved.... no need to use the word.
---alan_of_UK on 7/9/07

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AlanofUK - ("No realisation that the person ahd converted from being an Anglican Christian to a Catholic Christian,") -- Alan, I would like to ask you what your description of an Anglican Christian is. What does an Anglican Christian believe? Are Anglican Christians saved, and how?
---Helen_5378 on 7/9/07

Alan of Uk::Noted- To err is human.-But God does forgive Based on contrition.a thought for contemplation:- Is there Joy & or sadnedd in heaven when,one converts to Gods ways & OR defects.would not those same feelings be expressed by those on this earth,even amongst the different denominations.Just reflection not discussion.Amen.
---Emcee on 7/9/07

AlanofUK - Sorry, I made a mistake. What I meant to say was "I ask because you do believe that Catholics are Christian.
---Helen_5378 on 7/9/07

Helen ... When I said " sad denial that Catholicism is Christian" I was referring to the Mother Superior's attitude.
If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I beleive that Roman Catholics ARE Christian.
---alan_of_UK on 7/9/07

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Emcee ... You are imagining the vendetta
I just try to correct incorrect facts, and suh#ggest that some preconceptions need to to be reconsidered.
We need to beware bigots on all sides
---alan_of_UK on 7/9/07

AlanofUK - What is a Christian to you? I ask because you do not believe that Catholics are Christian.
---Helen_5378 on 7/9/07

Alan Of UK::A friend in need is a friend indeed" may I suggest you do not take to heart, the ills of this world on your shoulder & convert it to a personal vendetta -I know you wont, but for your peace of mind you are not an accessory to the or after the fact.I understand cetain things go against the goad, & this you stand up for by upbringing&Heritage.But it's water under that bridge,so let it pass. I know your stand from past, I have known you to be a gentleman & a scholar so let it rest
---Emcee on 7/8/07

Emcee ... Lorra claimed TB kept his catholicism secret.
If he did so, that it dishonest.
But I don't beleive he did, indeed I have yet to see his declaration that he is planning to convert.
The issue of appointment of CofE bishops is irrelevant, and it would be no reason to keep quiet
---alan_of_UK on 7/8/07

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Emcee ... .
On the question of the RCC claiming scalps, I find it reprehensible ... I remember visiting a a group of nuns and the Mother Superior rejoicing that a senior Anglican had converted from Christianity to Catholicism.
No realisation that the person ahd converted from being an Anglican Christian to a Catholic Christian, but a sad denial that Catholicism is Christian.
---alan_of_UK on 7/8/07

Emcee "Does a dignitary .. Religious affiliation in the uk?"
I though you lived in the UK, so you should know the answer is no.
But TB always let it be known that he goes to RCC accompanyng his wife, and not as a Catholic. So either that is the situation, or he is a Catholic and has chosen to conceal the fact, and that amounts to dishonesty.
As you know from our many conversations, although I think there are faults witht the RCC, I do not condemn it. But I do condemn dishonesty
---alan_of_UK on 7/8/07

Mike ... I don't think anyone here has said anything about why the Pope refused Henry his divorce.
I think he was right to do so.
I think Henry was wrong to divorce.
I think he was wrong to execute wives.
But none of those issues are what is being discussed here
---alan_of_UK on 7/8/07

I do love displays of ignorance, specially where Henry VIII is concerned and his 1st wife.
Some questions to think on; Who was her uncle? Charles V of Spain
In 1525 the Pope was made a prisoner by who? Charles V
Why did he deny Henry VIII divorces? Her uncle threatened to kill him.
---mike8384 on 7/7/07

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Alan Of Uk:;Question-Does a dignitary of the British realm have to disclose his private life& selection of Religious affiliation in the uk?After all he goes to Church every sunday& offers his private thoughts prayers & felicitations to God in the presence of the congregation.That would be no secret.
---Emcee on 7/7/07

Alan Of Uk:;Question-Does a dignitary of the British realm have to disclose his private life& selection of Religious affiliation in the uk?After all he goes to Church every sunday& offers his private thoughts prayers & felicitations to God in the presence of the congregation.That would be no secret.
---Emcee on 7/7/07

I see no need to study someone else's book about the Bible. It's another book.
A Bible study should use the Bible.
---Davis on 7/7/07

I believe that Kay Authur is a great Christian and her points are well done. The subject of the Bible is one that many have different opinions. Of course bible's that are not Christian in content, are of no help to any for they are mixed with truth and lies. But everyone forgets it is the Spirit who brings light to Scripture no matter which Christian bible we use. Some are very well studied and when they look for the best food of Scripture do need the best Bibles they can find.
---mark on 7/7/07

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#2. God preserved a Remnant, a minority of humanity that has remainded faithful to the Lord in every age. So no matter what happened or what anyone did, this Remnant has always been around to continue the process of God's plan for His own. Many Bible's are better then others, but depending on what or how far we are in the truth. Many are so mature they do need the best that is out there, others are just beginning and a simple Christian Bible will do.
---mark on 7/7/07

#3. There is many Bible tools out there that can be use to help the Christian, and when we run into a suppose contradiction we can see there is really no contradictions. paradoxes but no contradictions. We have enough sense to look for the correct answer's or meaning of God's word if we have an open heart to learn. All others will continue to argue over and over but the Spirit brings light to God's Word when our intention is for the glory of God.
---mark on 7/7/07

The church I go to on Wednesday nights does long, drawn-out studies of different books. The pastor occasionally refers to scripture to support things the authors are saying. I have had the same concern as you - that I am not entirely comfortable studying a book other than the bible with no reference to God's Word. I think there are alot of good books that can provide for discussion, but the bible should be the center of all discussion.
---melissa on 7/7/07

Lorra # 1 "I am proud of Tony's decision - he converted to Catholicism a long time ago, (did he? ... I have still not heard he has converted) he has only delayed making it public and going through the official "paperwork" so to speak. ((If he did convert some time ago he has been thooroughly dishonest to keep it quiet)
He has been attending Catholic services with his Catholic wife and children for a while now (that does not make him a Catholic)"
---alan_of_UK on 7/7/07

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Lorra # 2 I am surprised you are proud of him, if all this were true, it would lessen still further my regard for this devious character
---alan_of_UK on 7/7/07

Lorra # 4 "What atheists and other non-Christians do, is not my concern"
Then your standards are low. If it was innappropraite for Tony as a catholic to appoint CofE bishops, then it was for the atheist & Jews.
But at least they were honest about their religious belief or lack of it, whereas this man hid his catholicism. And you applaud this dishonesty?
---alan_of_UK on 7/7/07

Lorra # 5 At this point I will repeat what you have seen me say many times before. Whilst I think the RCC part of the Christian church things wrong (as have other denominations) I do not hate it. I hate the bitter fighting on this site. (And Emcee you know that, brother)
My comments were made because of the incorrect facts that you put forward about the Reformation in the UK and your apparent belief that there would still only be the RCC here but for Henry's desire for a divorce.
---alan_of_UK on 7/7/07

Lorra # 6 "I have not written on Henry VIII rampage of destruction, that is a separate issue which I have not raised"
I could not until a moment ago believe you said that, until I went to pull out the reference to quote it back to you.
I now have to humbly submit and apologise
Some of what I addressed to you, I should have been saying to Ashley, for it was he who referred to the destruction and to Wikepedia, and to some of the history of the reformation.
---alan_of_UK on 7/7/07

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Emcee ... I did not explode, & it was not said in anger, just to try to correct what Lorra had said, firstly when she equated the UK monarch and PM with the Pope and in the reason and effects of the reformation on the religious life in the UK.
Trouble is, I attributed to Lorra things that Ashley had said!! My error, cause by weakness of mind following food poisoning.
I trust peace remains between all of us.
---alan_of_UK on 7/7/07

Let's look not at the Bible as a book, but something of a supernatural content.

While most translations of the Bible have come and gone over the centuries, the KJV has stayed the test of time. It has been tried unsuccessfully hundreds of times to exterminate the Bible from the world. For example, Voltaire, a vocal critic af Christianity, proclaimed that "Gods inerrant Word wouldn't survive another century" (late 1700s). Here it is 2007 and it's still the best selling book in the world.
---Steveng on 7/6/07

Alan of UK, you are reading far more into what I said than what I wrote. What does Wikipedia have to do with anything, I seldom use them as a source much less as a reliable source. I have not written on Henry VIII rampage of destruction, that is a separate issue which I have not raised. As for the reason why Henry VIII became a Protestant - that I stand by.
---lorra8574 on 7/6/07

Alan P2: Henry VIII was given the Title "Defender of the Faith" by the reigning Pope of his day for defending Catholicism in England against the forces of Protestantism. This only changed when the Pope refused to bend the rules laid down by scripture to favour the King's preferences.
---lorra8574 on 7/6/07

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Alan P3: What atheists and other non-Christians do, is not my concern. I am proud of Tony's decision - he converted to Catholicism a long time ago, he has only delayed making it public and going through the official "paperwork" so to speak. He has been attending Catholic services with his Catholic wife and children for a while now.
---lorra8574 on 7/6/07

Debi: see the "Is The NIV Bible Apostate?" thread: there is no need to repeat myself. By all means, check out Kay Arthur or any other teacher with Scripture, but IIRC she is pretty sound.
---Ktisophilos on 7/6/07

Ironically, Kay Arthur's major mistake comes from KJV mistranslation! I.e. her ministry is "Precepts", based on the KJV "precept upon precept" (Isa. 28), taken as a method of Bible instruction.

But Hebrew is sav lasav sav lasav kav lakav kav lakav, which was not meant to be translated at all, but were meaningless sounds like "rhubarn rhubarb rhubarb." This was judgement upon Israel: foreigners would invade, and their language would sound like gibberish.
---Ktisophilos on 7/6/07

Lorra, alan_of_UK is right re Wikipedia: "The Abomination that Causes Misinformation". Anyone can edit, and their administrators push barrows.

A notorious example of its flaws was one "Essjay". He claimed to hold doctoral degrees and to be a tenured professor at a private university. Essjay was appointed to the arbitration committee. But he was found to be a 24yo college dropout. Yet Wiki founder offered him a paid position after the fraud was exposed.
---Ktisophilos on 7/6/07

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There have been people who have come to an understanding of Salvation through reading a NIV translation. If its good enough for the Holy Spirit its should be good enough for the Church.
---Marcia on 7/6/07

Alan of Uk:;You surely blew a stack.Brother,the good thing about it is you got it out of your system& in no uncertain terms, made your feelings known.Sorry you had to explode; but for water under the bridge which neither you Nor Lorra Or anyone can correct.Your many endeavours to smooth Ruffled feathers,has made you an everlasting Friend & as they say in England They have their way "Right is might" & not the otherway around.To bring you back to the table I offer you the olive branch Friend.
---Emcee on 7/6/07

Lorra #12.
I put little credence on your suggestion that he delayed his conversion "out of respect for his position and knowing that it would be inappropriate (though not illegal anymore) for a Catholic to be appointing Anglican Bishops" Why should he worry about the inappropriateness, when Jews and atheists have previously made such appointments?
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #13 Having lived through 9 years of his government, I can say his motives are largely for himself and his own popularity, and not out of respect for any principle.
And how can I "be pleased" that he waited before pursuing his conversion ... how can I respect a man who would wait? If the conversion means anything, it has to be done immediately, otherwise it is a sham or the wait is unreal and a deception
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

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Lorra #7 Were his motives any less worthy than the RCC's (wanting to control the people, policies and secular wealth of another race and country?
Lorra ... Times were different then, these actions were normal, and sadly both Pope and protesters and state leaders behaved in ways which nowadays would be regarded as worthy of the death penalty
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #8 Regarding Wikipedia ... its reliability has been disproved recently, and souces shown to be corrupted, so do not take that quote as accurate... I can assure you, as a past student of Tudor period of English history, that it is not true
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #9 The Church of England still would prefer that people did not divorce, but recognises that some marriages beome unsustainable. As for remarriage, the CofE does marry divorcees. It realises that it may be of less harm and sin for a divorced person to remarry, than to live a twisted and incomplete life.
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #11 As for Tony Blair, your comments are without much verification. I have little regard for the man, bearing in mind the way he ran the country, slitthering round his commitments and promises, and leading us into an illegal (although maybe justified) war, and pursuing it, and especially its aftermath, so incompetently
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

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StephenG....Thanks for the preaching. However, I have my own personal preacher at my house. The problem with all these translations (including the KJV) is that they were "authorized" by man and not God. Also, the Book of Mormon is in nowhere a translation of the Bible. It is strictly a work of fiction thought up in the mind of Joseph Smith after he read a book which is plagarized completely in the Book of Mormon.
---Susie on 7/6/07

Lorra #1 I am not interested in arguing the rights or wrongs of the reformation or of the present position of the RCC, but you should not distort the facts from afar. I live with the results of the Reformation as it occurred in the UK.
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #2 The history of the Christian church in Europe, as in the USA, shows that the church IN England would now be split into many different deniominations, and even if the RCC had remained the "official" church of royalty and state, and the Church OF England did not exist, there would be a multitude of other shades of Chriatianity (Lutherans, Baptists, etc etc)
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #3 You say "only reason that there is a different church in England is because King Henry VIII wanted to get around the Pope's ruling (so) that he could divorce and remarry" and then "In 1540, all shrines, statues and evidence of the catholic church were destroyed, (by Henry) making his church the only source of worship in Britain" This is entirely untrue.
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

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Lorra #4 Although Henry may have intended this, (although I doubt it ... if he had really tried it, there would have been a ruinous civil war) The destruction was by no means total, and Roman Catholics continued to meet and worship (in secret)
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Lorra #5 You appear to criticise Henry's actions of destruction, but they were of the same class as the persecutions which the RCC Had over the centuries inflicted on "heretics" And you simplify his motives, which were much more than wanting his divorce. Much of the wealth of Henry's country weere tied up by the vatican. He did not want that wealth going out of the country, but staying in it, so he could take his cut, reward his friends and build his army. .
---alan_of_UK on 7/6/07

Ashley, until such a time you are proficient in reading the Bible Hebrew, Aramaic & Greek you will need to be able to use tools to understand the exact meaning of Biblical words. The KJV was never special or divinely inspired in its translation as being the exact word of God. Any one who professes that KJV is the exact word of God is a pathetic fool. Use a modern word for word translation that is not KJV derivation and may be you will be closer to what the Bible texts actually said.
---Phil_the_Elder on 7/6/07

I personally value my soul and eternal life with Christ more than to trust in someone's book whom I do not know personally. For all you know, they may be a devil sent to lead you to hell. Trust in the Spirit to guide you into all truth.
---Frank on 7/6/07

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Alan, you are correct. Henry the eighth wanted a divorce and petitioned the pope for a divorce. When it was denied, he severed all ties to the vatican and appointed himself leader of the Church of England, which is still governed today by Elizabeth 11. In 1540, all shrines, statues and evidence of the catholic church were destroyed, making his church the only source of worship in Britain. wikipedia archives of history, henry the eighth.
---ashley on 7/5/07

Susie: "The problem with translations is that so much is lost in the actual translation."

Today's Bible translations (the Gay Bible, the Feminist Bible, the Book of Mormon, the JW translations, the Teen Bible, the Black Bible, the Brown Bible, the White Bible, etc.) are written by people having cold hearts, having their own agenda, and written from the KJV. People way back then were a little more honest in trying to bring the Gospel to the world in their own languages.

---Steveng on 7/5/07

Susie: But no matter what translation you read and if you're honest to develop a good relatiosnhip with the one true God, the Holy Spirit will guide that person to the true source. Unfortunately, most will not heed the guidance from the Holy Spirit. This is why it's important to take one day off from work (THE Sabbath) and develop a strong, personal relationship with God instead of filling each minute of your life with sermons, entertainment, clubs, ipods, computers, (church) activities, etc.
---Steveng on 7/5/07

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