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Is Man Pure Or Sinful From Birth

Is man pure, or are we born with a sinful nature ie. we have a propensity to sin from birth?

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What is sin? Sin is wrong action, rebellion, insurrection, disobedience, unrighteous, vice and wickedness. To characterize or describe wrong action, is to assign, or ascribe moral characteristics, attributes, and qualities to the moral act. A sinful-character, nature, disposition, and temperament, describes and characterizes the mode, manner or way of life, a person lives, by being sinful.
---TRU-DOG on 12/27/08

MarkV, maybe because you live in the West, maybe you have not travelled much. If you were to go abroad and see humans as humans not as religious beings, you would see that many are good. Even though great things are done against them, I have heard Africans say that they (starving though they are) forgive and pray for those who cause it or those whose ignorance helps to perpetuate their bad circumstances. Often they know that the the so called Christian Church in history has done its best to keep Africa poor. Now tell me that becoming Christian is how to be good. No!. There are two kinds of people 1. good 2. evil. The good go to Heaven the evil go to hell. Now let us talk about what defines 'evil'.
---frances008 on 12/22/08

The gospel (good news) is that you can CHANGE. You can become good if you were evil, you can also become evil although you were good to begin with. Or you can stay whatever you were initially. This is what learning from siblings or peers, education, access to libraries, internet, good parenting and free will have given to us. No man is an island. There is nobody not able to learn to be good. We are born with consciences to tell us, even if we are alone on a desert island, what is good and what is evil. Your view is that religion can save you. Sorry, mate, it cannot, and it might condemn you.
---frances008 on 12/22/08

True Dog, God did not create man a sinner. You have to get that straight. Adam became a sinner when he desobeyed God. Sin is rebellion against God. By their actions God cursed them. by their sin, they became mortal. Their bodies would now return to the ground, (they would die physically). They also became spiritually dead. Their communion with God ended at that fall. In the case of Israel after the fall, men still experienced God's Works but in spite of that Israel was blind to the significance of what the Lord had done for them, lacking spiritual understanding. They saw what God did, but didn't see, they heard, but didn't understand. They needed a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear and understand God. Check Deu. 29:2-5.
---MarkV. on 12/22/08

Yes, Leslie, the Bible (OT and NT) does convict people of sin. It convicted the sinners in those days and it convicts sinners today. We should read the Bible and obey it. That means we should now go to step ONE which is to repent. Then we should believe in Jesus, pick up your cross, and finally, follow him. After hearing you are a sinner you have to STOP sinning. It seems that you stopped reading the Bible instead at that point.
---frances008 on 12/21/08

The Bible says that ALL people sin, and if you don't think so, then the TRUTH is NOT in you, and you call God a LIAR (1 John 1:8-10).
---Leslie on 12/20/08

Did God creat Man as a sinner? Man is the image and glory of God. 1Cor.11:7 Men are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9 He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25 We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29 Now here is one that will be most interesting...I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16 Did God creat us as sinners? Are we to understand that Jesus, as the offspring of David, was born with a sinful nature? The doctrine of orginal sin is false, it is against the Holy character of God.
---TRU-DOG on 12/19/08

I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16 Jesus is both God and man, but without sin or a sin-nature.
---TRU-DOG on 12/19/08

Here are my bible text: Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73 Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139: 13,14 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb: Job 31:15 Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Eccl. 12:1 Know ye that the Lord he is God, it is he that hath made us and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3
---TRU-DOG on 12/19/08

Steveng, Do you think the essense of the spirit or soul is sinful? How can the composition of the inner-man(spirit or soul) be sinful? What is sin? Is it a substance, in the spirit or soul? If the composition or essense and funtions of the spirit or soul is sinful, then how? This is ontological/metaphysical, when the being and nature of anything is a topic of study.
---TRU-DOG on 12/18/08

Frances008 - You are VERY DECIEVED, and what you have said does NOT line up with the Bible at all. You have also made yourself out to be God, and made God in your own image. This is idoltry. God is holy, and can NOT be near sin and unholiness, therefore we MUST repent of our sins on a DAILY basis. Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself is dependant upon if you follow the 10 Commandments. If you do NOT follow the 10 Commandments, you do NOT have love for God, yourself, or others (John 14:15,John 15:14,1 John 2:3-5,1 John 3:24,1 John 5:2-3,2 John 1:6). You MUST repent or you WILL go to Hell. I pray you make the right decision.
---Leslie on 12/18/08

Steveng, Sure..Why?
---TRU-DOG on 12/18/08

We are born pure in a world that is prone to sin. From there we are given a choice, live righteously or live foul. If you are a parent, as I am, then it is our responsibility to raise our children (and feel free to instruct others' children) in the laws of the Lord Our God.
---Paul on 12/18/08

Markv, When a person sins, his sins are imputed to him. When a person does right, or wrong, his moral actions are imputed to him, this is just and not unjust. But when you impute the moral actions of another, this is unjust. We take on a new moral nature in Christ, when we obey Him, this is imputed to us.
---TRU-DOG on 12/17/08

TRU-DOG, have you not read in the Bible about the watchman?
---Steveng on 12/17/08

MarkV, You believe in imputed righteousness, do you believe in imputed sin? To impute is to charge to one's moral account, every sin is imputed or charged, to the person who sinned, it is personal and individual, and non-transferable. Adam's personal/individual sin's are his own, and is imputed to him, it is not imputed to us.
---TRU-DOG on 12/17/08

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MarkV, The doctrine of imputation is unjust, if the sin's of one, is imputed to another. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is His own, it is personal/individual and non-transferable in an injust way. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is transferable and imputed in a moral or just way, by doing His will. When you make Jesus Christ your Lord and obey Him, you take on His righteousness as a way, or manner of life. When you are morally right, as Jesus Christ is, then your personal/individual righteousness is imputed as being like Him.
---TRU-DOG on 12/17/08

True-Dog, it only takes one sin, and all sin and come short of the glory of God. Every single individual is sinful. The Bible has certain passages in the Old Testament that say some were righteous, but that only meant they were following God for a while, doing his commandments and later they too rejected God and stopped been righteous. This people did not have the righteousness of Christ imputed on them. Because through the law of works they could not be justified, they needed the Covenant of Grace in order to be save. And counted as righteous by trusting by faith in the coming Christ and not on the law that could not save anyone. Many were saved in the Old T. by having faith in God not by doing good deeds of the law.
---MarkV. on 12/17/08

Leslie, it may be very difficult to be sinless, but it is possible to fulfill the laws in other ways, like loving God and loving our neighbour. I don't go in for this idea that if you get up in the morning knowing you are going to sin and repent before bedtime, then you are on the right track. If our conscience is clean, should we invent some sins to appease this ritual god who demands daily repentance? God wants sincerity. What happens if you come out of confession, or straight after repenting you have a prideful thought and suddenly die of a heart attack? Does that one sin condemn you. I don't think so. God sees the intentions so you cannot fool around with sin.
---frances008 on 12/17/08

ALL people (including Christians) sin on a DAILY basis. If you are a Christian, and say you don't sin, then you call God a LIAR, and the TRUTH is NOT in you (1 John 1:8-10). This is why we MUST confess and repent of our sins on a DAILY basis.
---Leslie on 12/16/08

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You're welcome TRU-DOG. I gave you another one today because you said that man is not totally depraved. That it is a philosophy of men.
---frances008 on 12/16/08

MarkV, We agree that when you sin you are separated from God, however, man is not born spiritually dead. It only takes one sin to seperate you from God, that is why every one who has sinned needs Christ.
---TRU-DOG on 12/16/08

Frances008, Thanks for your vote!
---TRU-DOG on 12/16/08

True Dog, I hope I can do justice for Christ with my answer. When God created man he was perfect. When he sinned, all his descendants went the same root. Spiritually, all humans born are spiritually dead to God from birth. Separated from God. Because of this separation, everything they do is sin of pride, for themselves. So all fall short of the glory of God because they are separated from God. Because of the fall they think and make choices but never for God. So all they do is not of God. Thus the essence of all sin is the failure to love God. That is the primary viloation. And the essence of sin is most clearly seen in unbelief. "convict the world of sin because they do not believe in Me." John 16:8.
---MarkV. on 12/16/08

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There is a group of people, planted by Satan, who are depraved. They became that way whilst in the world. Maybe it was their upbringing. Anyway, they still have a conscience to know right from wrong, unless they are sick. These people may like to spread an idea that everyone is the same as them - totally depraved - and that way they hope to get on the plan of salvation that everyone else has available to them. But they are not going to make it, unless they drastically change. I believe among these are Calvinists. Which is to say, children of the whore - the Catholic Church.
---frances008 on 12/16/08

MarkV, We agree that we sin, thats an understood, it is the cause or reason for sin, that is different. You believe that there is a metaphysical/ontological cause, and I don't. You believe that there is a sin-nature that is the cause of wrong doing, instead of man being his own cause for wrong doing. I do believe in a sinful-nature in a moral sense, it is a moral-disposition or character of voluntary moral action. Do you think that a sin-nature is a entity, like a substance, that is implanted? Do you think that you have in- born appetites, tastes, desires, and relishes that craves to sin, that is antecedent to moral action?
---TRU-DOG on 12/16/08

"Original sin does not refer primarily to the first or original sin committed by Adam and Eve. Original sin refers to the result of the first sin-the corruption of the human race."
RC Sproul
Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Not true I gather.
Rom 7:7 "... Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Seems like sin is a learned behavior.
---Nana on 12/15/08

True Dog, We sin because we are sinners by nature. When a baby is born he is born with a sin nature. That doesn't mean he has sin, but that he will sin as soon as he realizes he has it. And he will realize it very quick. When a person is born he is born spiritually dead, he is dead to God and all that is morally of God and all he does is sin, since what he does is not of God. If he is good to someone, he sins because what he does is not of God. Only that which is of faith is not sinful. And so when every child is born with the exception of Christ, he begans life with a sinful nature. It is fallen. It too needs to be redeemed.
---MarkV. on 12/15/08

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Steveng, No! Why?
---TRU-DOG on 12/15/08

Mark, To compare moral beings with an amoral being is interesting to me. The nature of moral choice is right or wrong. It is a way of life, when you choose to be of a way or manner of life that is anti-God. Sin is a choice that is a moral event. You are the cause of sin, it is a choice or a moral occurance. Moral events or occurances, are by you own choice, not of an ontological/metaphysical essence or substance. What is the sin nature? If it is not a moral nature, then it must be of an ontological/metaphysical essence. To be of a sinful nature is a personal choice, it is a moral way, manner or lifestyle, it is self-caused.
---TRU-DOG on 12/15/08

Jerry, You say, that a sin-nature is inborn, and is the reason a child is selfish, and that a child does not need to be taught to sin.ect. Did any moral beings need to be taught to sin, before sinning? Can you first be tempted, then choose to sin, before you have ever been taught to sin? Is sinfulness caused by something of an ontological/ metaphysical essence or nature? Are you forced and made to act in a way that is sinful? Are you forced into a sinful lifestyle and have no choice? I think you are the actor of you own acts, sin is self-caused.
---TRU-DOG on 12/15/08

Part 2. The last statement I meant birds that there nature is to fly. And dogs to walk on all fours. The nature whe have is corrupted body and soul. Both need to be redeemed.
---MarkV. on 12/15/08

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Sin nature is not a choice, it is a nature. Just like the dogs have a nature to fly where we don't, just like the chickens can lay eggs we cannot. Our sinful nature is corrupt from birth. The fall is a point of divine revelation. Original sin does not refer primarly to the first or original sin Adam committed, original sin refers to the result of the first sin, the corruption of the human race. The truth is that human beings come into existence in a state of sinfulness. They are seen by God as sinful because of their solidarity with Adam. "We are sinnners not because we sin, Rather, we sin because we are sinners."
---MarkV. on 12/15/08

born in innocence not purity. any parent is familiar with children's "terrible two's". but actual sinfulness starts more or less to show sometime in the preteens.
---opalgal on 12/15/08

Man is not born guilty of having commited sin. He is, however born with a sinful nature, and thus has a certain propensity to sin. Just ask any parent how selfish the little ones can be. Without this nature, which engenders a desire to sin, we could not be tempted to sin. But temptation to sin, even with a sinful nature is not sin. Jesus "was in all points tempted LIKE AS WE ARE, yet without sin (Heb 4:15)." Though we have sinful natures, we don't have to sin, because God "will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Cor 10:13)."
---jerry6593 on 12/14/08

Innate or inherent desires are not sinful, it is what you do with them, that is moral, voluntary and sinful. It is not sinful in being a human, with natural desires, that are essential, in being a human. The moral manner, of gratification, or the indulgence, of your nature desires, can be morally right, or wrong. You can have self-gratification or pursue the indulgence of your natural desires, God has given you, all day long, without being sinful, if it is done lawfully. You are not created with some kind of sinful essence,or subtance that is a propensity to sin, it is not ontological or metaphysical.
---TRU-DOG on 12/13/08

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TRU-DOG: "Do we have a propensity to sin from birth? No..It's a propensity to fullfill inate,inherent, and natural desires, that make us who we are as created beings by God."

Have you not read about feral children?
---Steveng on 12/12/08

Yes, sin is a choice, however, when you are born, you just do what babies do. You don't know how to choose right from wrong, because you are still on milk, not steak (have not developed that mentallity). The Bible says that we are born into sin from Adam. Adam passed that "gene" of sin to us, and so we sin, even though we do not know how to choose right from wrong. Until we get to the age that we understand sin, repentance, and give our lives to Jesus, we are still in sin. Read Romans 3:9-12, Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 13:11.
---Leslie on 12/12/08

I agree with Ashley's description of original sin, ie. that in Adam and Eve, humanity lost eternal life for all humans, Adam and Eve brought sickness and hard work into our lives, and the aging process speeded up. The devil could enter men's hearts. Jesus brought us all the reverse, eternal life was available from then onwards, those who died before were freed from prison cells in hell, physical healing became possible through faith. However, I do not believe that babies are born stained with original sin, which is washed off if they are baptized. That is what Catholics state. I believe babies are born pure.
---frances008 on 12/12/08

Do we have a propensity to sin from birth? No..It's a propensity to fullfill inate,inherent, and natural desires, that make us who we are as created beings by God.
---TRU-DOG on 12/12/08

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The sin-nature is a personal choice. Adam had a choice to sin and so do all of mankind. It only takes one personal act of sin to make you sinful or a sinner. You take on a manner,way or nature that is against the will of God and his plan for your life. Man has patterned this way of life since Adam. You are not born without a choice to obey or disobey. If you can't obey then you can't disobey. You always have free-agency or freedom of choice.You are born with free-agency and the power to choose God and his will for your life.
---TRU-DOG on 12/10/08

Original sin occured when Adam and Eve, through temptation, fell and were cast out of the garden. Spiritual death or separated from the presence of God. That remained in effect until Jesus Christ gave his life freely for us. He died that man might live. When he was resurrected the third day, which is a reunion of his spirit and mortal body, he broke the bonds of death or original sin, enabling all mankind to return to God, if they are worthy. Will all Christians return to God. The answer is no, because the wages of sin and evil are death and damnation when they worship Satan, Not Jesus Christ. We can't yell praise God on sundays and worship satan during the week in evil. You cannot serve two masters and they will be cast out.
---ashley on 12/9/08

Trudog, I gave you a vote, but I do not agree with everything you say. The thing is that original sin is not in the Bible. It says we were made in the image of God, and our intended home is Heaven. Hell was made for the devil and his angels (evil spirits). Free will makes us the ones in control of who we will follow. We cannot blame God for making us be born sinners. It is a choice. Free will. Original sin is the spiritual equivalent of saying we came from Chimpanzees. It devalues all human beings and says that we all die and go to hell naturally. That is not the case. If a baby dies it goes to Heaven. Jesus died so that he could redeem our sinful choices and clean the slate and start anew, like new born babies.
---frances008 on 12/9/08

What is sin? How does a sinful nature get past down at birth? Is it a substance or something that has real being? Can a substance be sinful? Is this sinful something a part of our being or in our make-up some how? It would need to exist as having real being in order to be transfered some how? Is this anything at all like the view of Gods word? I think sin is a choice. A sin-nature is a choice that is a moral way of life that is anti-God. A sinful choice is a moral event that can be past or present. A sinful way of life is a choice that is personal and non-transferable. The guilt,shame and blame from wrong choice is personal and non-transferable.
---TRU-DOG on 12/8/08

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Mima, The spirit of man is called in hebrew Ruach, and is also called wind or a breath. the spirit of man is therefore God his lifes breath in us, and bible teaches us that it is this life breath that goes back to God when we "give up the Ghost". soul however is our character personallity etc. it is this part which will be judged. flesh is still living under the curse and decays.
those who are saved by Christ will ghet in heaven a Spiritual body (a new body) spirit soul and body. the ruach has nothing to do with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. because everyone has the ruach of God that is why acts says that however we live and dwell in Him.
---Andy on 11/28/08

As a member of a fallen race what type of spirit does the newborn baby have? His birth puts him/her in the human family. A human being is a three-part being having a body, a soul, and a spirit. Now exactly what kind of spirit does the newborn baby have?
---mima on 11/25/08

Humans are sinful by nature from birth. The Bible declares that no one is good, not even one, and that all have sinned and fall short of His glory. The only cure for sin is Jesus Christ, and repentance.
---Leslie on 11/24/08

Paul clarified what was written in the old testament, relating old testament to Christ and his salvationwork. to reject original sin is claiming that man is good, yet he ghot perverted by sircumstances and enviroment. Consequently, If one can seperate his kid from every sin, it will grow up sinless as Adam. Whoever does not believe the doctrine of original sin, has devaluated Christ's reconciliating work and is therefore still in sin.
David says in Psalms that he was conceived in sin (OT) accept the fact that through Adam sin and death entered in this world, original sin does not imply you did it, it implies that Adams sin (as paul explained in the letter to Romans) bears its consequenses on you
---Andy on 11/24/08

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The original sin ideas was started by Paul and actually goes against the teaching from God in the Old Testament. I guess we could ignore everything in the Old Testament but a lot of Christians still like the 10 commandments.
---Jack on 11/17/08

All this love can do is, love you, this is God.
But we dont understand this love, we keep looking for proof of it.
Instead of loving each other and forgiving, we look for the sin in one another.
Looking for weakness, not understanding by your words you are making them weak.
You must stop sinning to go to him, no! He calls you one by one in time. Lets you feel his love for you. Now you see only your sins, no one elses. Now you know what forgiveness is, now you will try to forgive everyone. You see yourself in them!

You have to remove the mountains in your brother way!
I can only ask lord to make this clear.
God Bless you
---TheSeg on 11/17/08


God Bless you, my sister in his faith of my lord Jesus Christ the Savior.
Look I know its hard to believe. Believe me if you knew my life! Before the lord! I tell you the last, the very last thing on my mine was God!

Everyone said you must believe, believe in him. He will help you! Sound familiar!
There was no way I was going to believe. Years go by.

Then one day, he calls me. He calls me a sinner, who could care less of him.
But he shows me his love, listen to me! There is no way I can explain this love to you!!

There is no way this love will hurt you in anyway!
Kathr more to come!
---TheSeg on 11/17/08

TheSeg, I'm not sure what you mean about the rain part.....but this I KNOW.

1 Peter 5:9-11

8Be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you . To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

JOY comes in the Morning!!!!! AND His Mercy is NEW every day!!!!

TheSeg...God Bless,
---kathr4453 on 11/17/08

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Since the time of Christ, there are 2 races being produced in the world, the holy and the unholy, and depending upon which progenitor you are born from will determine whether you are born holy or else unholy. Please Read- I Corinthians 7:14.
---Eloy on 11/16/08


Sometimes its better to speak then listen and sometimes its better to listen then speak.
I know you know this. Because you seem to know, so much! I mean with the fire and the rain, burning, ACID, chains and fiery trials. I

So I will just thank him, because, I dont live next to you.

God loves you and God blessed you.
My very young sister

Ps I through in the rain part! Love you.
---TheSeg on 11/16/08

TheSeg, the law of SIN is DEATH, and Yes, through Christ IN ME...I have been set free from death...and now have everlasting life.
John did not promise this, for only Jesus Christ as HIS Baptism can. John's Baptism had no power to redeem anyone's soul.

These fire y trials....(read 1st Peter ....and go on to 1st Peter 4, are the fellowship of His sufferings. What does 1st Peter 4 say....that we should live no more after the flesh..etc. It's the burning ACID God sends into our lives and that ACID burns away the chains that bind us to this world and our old adam connection to it.
---kathr4453 on 11/16/08

Gods Word says:For(ALL)have sinned...and have come short of the Glory of God. all means all!
Babies are Not accountable until a certain age.But all of us are born with a sinful nature of wrath (eph.2:3 and shapened in iniquityPsa. 51:5
(ALL is All) all have sinned
---Charla on 11/14/08

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This baptism gives us the power to be dead to sin. The Spirit of the Life of Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death.

Are you telling me you are free from the law of sin? What do you means? Free from it!
can you sin?
---TheSeg on 11/14/08

Baptism is a step of obedience. It cannot save us. A nonbeliever being baptized means nothing. It is only for those who repented (or see below on infants). It is symbolic only. It is a sign of entrance into the church of Christ. There is no magic attached to it. It is a celebration of a new member coming into the church. If an infant is baptized the parents are to promise that they will bring the child up Christian. A nonbaptized person is not stopped from getting into Heaven just for the lack of baptism.
---frances008 on 11/14/08

TheSeg..cont if I may...

Baptism with FIRE..
What has been done for us by Christ. He makes us dead to sin by dying for us and burying all our sins.
Buried with Him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:12)

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6)
This baptism gives us the power to be dead to sin. The Spirit of the Life of Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8
---kathr4453 on 11/14/08

The ya go...FIRE!!

1 Cor 3:1 Cor3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire , might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire , that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
---kathr4453 on 11/14/08

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word to word

Have you received the Holy Spirit (Ghost since ye believed)
(Believe there is more here)
THEY knew NOTHING about the Holy Spirit
(We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost)
Key (believe, heard, yes and faith)

....or the Baptism only JESUS CHRIST gives with FIRE.
(Fire?) What ever you believe this to be, ill say ok!

And all the men were about twelve. (Done! right!)

Ok now lets go back.
The baptism of john
All I would like you to understand here right now is that it came from God! Right!
Now! Ask yourself is this true?

Do you see this, no one had anything to do with it. Except God the father! Do you see!
---TheSeg on 11/13/08

Kathr, I would not recommend anyone to stay in the RCC, but if they leave and then follow their own heresies, they are going from a frying pan to a fire. Before they were told what to think, and were being deceived, now you are deceiving yourself and others due to the influence of the New Age Jungism on Christianity (with all its gnostic ideas). I point you to Jesus and so you are really really angry with me. I wonder why that is.
---frances008 on 11/13/08

Kathr, were you trained by the order of the Sacred Heart nuns..... you turn black into white etc. I was the one who challenged YOU to turn to Jesus in the Bible, if you look at my posts. I have been doing this for some time. Blessed is the master/mistress who is found giving the servants their food in due season. Peter was told three times to feed the sheep of God. Paul was talking to the churches of hundreds of years ago. Jesus was talking to everyone of every time after his time. Jesus is my judge, thank you. I therefore fill my life with his words, not Paul's. You are a moral relativist. Anything is okay because we were once forgiven our sins. Not always. There is a cut off period when those who don't listen are bid farewell.
---frances008 on 11/13/08

Even as an apostle of his time, Paul was not aware of all revelation. For instance he thought that Jesus Christ would come back very soon, in their lifetimes. Even though Jesus had promised them that they would be persecuted and many killed. So you see, building your faith on the rock of St Paul, is no better than putting your faith in the RCC. In fact putting faith in the RCC is better because at least they base their ideas on the man Jesus chose to be the first leader.
---frances008 on 11/13/08

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I keep asking, God! Why lord, why dont they open their eyes. He tells me, why!
You learned ones, what is the answer here?
If you answer be exact. Why?
---TheSeg on 11/12/08

The problem with your "?",
it was said to Pharisee's 2000 yrs. ago that "?"ed/DID'NT BELIEVE the Authority of Yahshua(Jesus) and who he said he was/IS
(Son of God)...

We have the luxury of knowing things, there's things that we can clearly understand in scripture that the D's were having trouble understanding, Jesus told them Are you yet W/O understanding
(the leaven of the Pharisee's,ect.)

---Duane_Dudley_Martin on 11/13/08

**The baptism of john from where did it come, from heaven or from men?***

TheSeg, John announced the Kingdom is at hand. However if you look in Acts, you will See Paul found about 10-15 who only received water baptism under John. Paul asked...Have you received the Holy Spirit.....THEY knew NOTHING about the Holy Spirit....or the Baptism only JESUS CHRIST gives with FIRE.

They were in the WRONG Kingdom....John stepped aside, stating He who is after me is preferred before me.....stating the Church who is Christ and His Body, those Heavenly, redeemed New creatures through Christs death and Resurrection life))precedes the earthly Kingdom.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/08

Frances tell us ,what part don't you understand???? WHY do you keep calling GOD a LIAR, the GOSPEL a lie, and insult those who BELIEVE, yes even those who are FUSSY about the TRUTH..HIS WORD!!!

Colossians 1:10And ye are complete in him,which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ :Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
---kathr4453 on 11/13/08

Frances aren't you being presumptuous about people's relationships with the Lord.

When YOU followed Jesus did YOU follow Him into Death and Resurrection Life...Have YOU put off the body of the sins of the flesh by the Circumcision of Christ?...Colossians 2?

You've answered NO by what you say, therefore YOU haven't followed Jesus the way HE wants YOU to follow Him.

Frances I challence you to HEED Jesus WORDS..

Frances you don't KNOW the Gospel.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's,the same shall save it.

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/08

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To all you learned ones.

I will ask you one thing, and if you answer it, you will have your answer.

The baptism of john from where did it come, from heaven or from men?

So, I hope you see were its from. So, now to the baby, are we done, do you now believe?

I keep asking, God! Why lord, why dont they open their eyes. He tells me, why!
You learned ones, what is the answer here?
If you answer be exact. Why?
---TheSeg on 11/12/08

The are some other choices between being a wilful sinner (totally depraved) and being a self righteous Pharisee. You might be an ignorant sinner, or a humble person who tries to take care of their family, or someone who tries to look out for human dignity, or someone who is forever going on about how unworthy they are (hypocrites who are not unlike Pharisees). There are many different kinds of people though they do tend to fall into groups that can be divided in various ways. I love human beings because they were made in God's image. The ones who are totally depraved scare me....but I don't really meet them or even listen to them, though some Christians actually do...I think it is very foolhardy.
---frances008 on 11/12/08

Andy, Kathr has shown from her interpretation of the Word that she is fussy about what she believes from the Bible and will ignore the conditions that Salvation is given to us upon. I think she confuses love with Salvation. God loves us unconditionally and that is why he sent Jesus to show us the way. If we do not heed Jesus's words there is no more sacrifice for sin, only a fearful looking for of judgement that will devour the adverseries. I am showing her where she is going wrong. She is assuming things all the time, about Salvation, and about my life, and about God's love. God will not continually forgive us if we rebel all our lives. In the judgement situation we will have to answer to him for ignoring Jesus's message.
---frances008 on 11/12/08

Trey, thank you for your apology. It is gratefully received as it was graciously given.
---frances008 on 11/12/08

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These promises are to sinners saved by GRACE, not to the self-righteous.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus

Col 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/08

Acts 15:8-10

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us,

9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Our hearts are PURIFIED by Faith in Jesus Christ.

OUR conscience is also purged or purified by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

No one is pure of heart WITHOUT Christ.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/08

kathr, do not get upset with those blunt attacks keep on saying what Christ has teached ands stay loyal. As for you Frances, please we are all saved sinners. and Mic you are deffenately in this for a fight. not only are you attacking me upon something i can not find in my response, yet you also contradict yourself in every new blog.
---Andy on 11/12/08

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