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Is The Prosperity Message Real

What do you think of the 'Prosperity message'? Is it scriptural?

Moderator - It is a false teaching that has harmed millions of Christians.

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Our souls are designed to be constantly fed.

God entered his rest after creation, Jesus Christ entered his rest after his work redemption, we experience Christs rest daily as we trust in his finished work of redemption, BUT we HAVE YET to enter our FINAL rest ..when we finish our life then enter Gods presence and hear the words well done.

How would you describe your spiritual appetite? Do you only let someone else feed you milk? Can you feed yourself? Do you just nibble a little bit of food occasionally? Or do you consistently feed on the solid food of God and His Word?
---gracynluv on 7/17/08

"This has nothing to do with the prosperity of our SOUL. Our Souls were REDEEMED by Jesus Christ, and now we are His Workmanship."

Kat our soul is redeemed in Christ Jesus, but we are STILL living in our sinful flesh, and are able to fall away from God, therefore we need to grow to MATURITY.God sends warnings not to discourage us but to get our attention and stir us up. To make our hope in Christ more certain we must continue to grow. Are you growing or dying?

---gracynluv on 7/17/08

***The KEY to prosperity is the STATE OF THE SOUL.God wants us to RENEW our minds (Rom 12:2). ****

We are asked to present ourself a LIVING sacrifice, Holy and acceptable unto God which is our reasonale service, and be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind so that we will know the good, perfect and acceptable will of God

This has nothing to do with the prosperity of our SOUL. Our Souls were REDEEMED by Jesus Christ, and now we are His Workmanship.

God's will for YOU LIFE may be to lay it down in death preaching the Gospel, so that others may live.
---kathr4453 on 7/17/08

We need to ask and pray for God to reveal where there is deception in our lives, be it from ourselves/others. Then as sin is reveal in our lives and deception is exposed we need to REPENT. We need to spend time daily seeking God in his word, not just reading favorite teachers OR doing what men tell us to do. We need to seek NOT OUR own kingdom or any false kingdoms we can be tempted with, but seek first the Kingdom of God. Seeking first the Kingdom of God is about losing our life. It at the very core comes down via the commands to love God with the entirety of our being (NOT what God can do, for,or through us)and love our neighbor as ourselves. And when total loving of God is evident, the blessings of the Lord will also be evident in our lives.
---gracynluv on 7/16/08

Can God trust you with money? He can't trust all that many people. The reason is, many Christians, whether they are rich or poor, trust IN the money they have now MORE THAN IN God's ability TO PROVIDE for them.

God knows our hearts more then we know ourselves,We can't be fooling around with God, either we will serve him because we choose too or we will indulge in our sins, God is true to his promises, therefore we need to stop decieving ourselves, if you lack of something, if you have no peace, it is not God who has a problem. It is important to examine ourselves and see where we might be engaging in the lust of flesh, lust of eyes, or pride of life.

Above all we need to humbly submit before God.
---gracynluv on 7/16/08

John, wrote "Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in ALL THINGS and be in health, JUST AS YOUR SOUL PROSPER".3Jn 2

The KEY to prosperity is the STATE OF THE SOUL.God wants us to RENEW our minds (Rom 12:2). If our minds are carnal, our desires wicked then its true that prosperity would not do us much good. "The wages of the wicked are spent on sin", the Book of Proverbs says, but the labor of the righteous leads to life.

We are told NOT to trust in riches. Paul told Timothy, "Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches, but IN THE Living God, WHO GIVES US richly all things to enjoy." (1 Tim 6:17).
---gracynluv on 7/16/08

Rob, I think the answer is...their giving all their money away playing Heavenly LOTTO. As you see, the majority of those who play lotto and the such can barely keep a roof over their heads!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/16/08

Returning to the original question...
The focus of Christianity is not what we can "get" from God (though the Bible teaches us to bring our needs and problems to Him in faith). More important is what we can GIVE to Him who already gave His all for us. Christianity is not all about us. It is about Jesus.

Phl 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness, [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
---Donna on 7/16/08

If the "prosperity Message" is true, I am still waiting for someone to answer why is it my family members who support, send money to, and by the books and CD's of "Prosperity Teachers" can barely keep a roof over their heads and food on their tables.
---Rob on 7/15/08

Gracy, yes, this will be fulfilled to Israel in the LAST DAYS prophesied in Genesis 49.

This will be the Kingdom Reign of Christ on earth.

However the CHURCH is entirely different and unique then earthly Israel, who the remnant OF ISRAEL will be saved through the Great Tribulation.

Both Jew and Gentile who are saved will enter into the Kingdom on earth.

The Church.....already Glorified together with Christ will reign and rule with Christ during this time. We have a HIGHER calling...a Heavenly Calling...not an earthly one.

The Church is being gathered together IN CHRIST today.

Unbelieving Israel is being gathered, will have to endure the Time of Jacobs trouble, . This time is NOT for the Church.
---kathr4453 on 7/15/08

Name "Israel" GIVEN TO Joseph's Sons Ephraim and Manasseh ..God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac DID WALK, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, the Angel which REDEEMED ME from all evil, BLESS THE LADS, AND LET MY NAME BE NAMED ON THEM, AND THE NAME OF MY FATHERS Abraham and Isaac, and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth" (Gen. 48:14-16).

Let who grow into this promised multitude? Let whose descendants become that numerous seed, which shall number into billions? Not Judah(4TH SON), the father of the Jews--note it!--but Ephraim and Manasseh! Why have the eyes and understanding of church leaders and Bible students been blinded to this plain fact of Scripture?
---gracynluv on 7/14/08

For 2700 years Ephraim has been lost but in the future they will be saved.

Zechariah 10, 6 And I will strengthen the House of Judah, AND I will SAVE the House of Joseph, And I will bring them again to place them: For I have mercy upon them: And they shall be as though I had not cast them off: For I am the Lord their God, and will hear them.

And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty Man, And their heart will rejoice as through wine: Yea, their children shall see it, and be GLAD: Their heart shall rejoice in the Lord.
---gracynluv on 7/14/08

This promise that God made to Abraham, is being accomplished through the Spirit.

The Northern Kingdom fell in 722 B.C. and Ephraim became known as the lost TEN tribes.

100 years later Ezekiel and Zechariah amongst others hearlded their return.

Rom 9-24 tells of this return of Ephraim who had been lost about 700 years.

'' Even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the gentiles, as he says in Hosea, '' I will call them my people' who are not my people: and I will call her ' my loved one' .

This prophecy is directly spoken to Ephraim who became lost into the nations.

Ezekiel and Zechariah tells of the last days when the stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah BECOME ONE.
---Ggracynluv on 7/14/08

A new doctrine is making the rounds in Christian Zionism and in some sections of the Messianic Jewish Movement. Is it a discovery of hidden truth or new illumination on the Scriptures? Or is this one of those winds of doctrine to be avoided?

The doctrine is that Ephraim is the Church.

It is interesting to note the similarity of the Mormons who believe that the Mormon Church represents Ephraim and is to be joined in unity with the Jews.

This Doctrine is accursed and must be rebuked!
---kathr4453 on 7/14/08

The tribes of Ephraim do not appear in Revelation. This is the keeping of God's Word that anybody who brings idol worship into Israel, He will destroy. But Jacob, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that Ephraim would become a multitude of nations. Ephraim inherited the promise that was GIVEN to Abraham.

The Shepherd of the flock and the Stone of Israel were to come through Joseph. As God reveals the mysteries of His Word, it becomes clear that He was not speaking of Ephraim in the natural. He was speaking of Spiritual Ephraim. Joseph's name means "another son". God is producing that son THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

---gracynluv on 7/14/08

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Gracy, WE are Begotten of God not firstborn!

Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN of the Father.

We are BIRTHED By Christ in us.

Your not Ephriam,and never will be....
---kathr4453 on 7/14/08

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To be born of God, one must simply believe that God SENT his only BEGOTTEN, sinless Son, Jesus, to be lifted up on a cross to die for our sins. If Ephraim is God's "firstborn", then Ephraim became born of Spirit before someone else. according to Eze37:15-23, God will one day reunite Ephraim AND Judah, then God may be saying in Jer31:9 that between the people of Ephraim and the people of Judah, who, combined, make up ALL OF ISRAEL, the people of Ephraim became born of Spirit before the Jewish people. If this is true, then Ephraim is God's firstborn.
---gracynluv on 7/14/08

Jer 31:9, God said, "For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My "FIRS BORN" (not BEgotten) Ephraim was Joseph's second-born, after Manasseh (Gen 46:20), so how can the people of Ephraim be God's firstborn? God is Spirit (Jn 4:24), so to be called "God's firstborn," wouldn't it make sense to say that the people of Ephraim must be born of God's Spirit? In Jn 3:5-16 Jesus SAID, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless ONE IS BORN of water and the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
---gracynluv on 7/14/08

Colossians 1:17-19

17And HE((Jesus Christ)) is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And HE is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell,
---kathr4453 on 7/14/08

Colossians 1:14-16

Jesus Christ!
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Jesus Christ!
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus Christ!
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

ONLY The Spirit of the Life of Christ (His Risen Life) will set you free from the Law of SIN and Death.

Thank you Jesus.....You're The ONLY First Born that matters to the CHURCH!
---kathr4453 on 7/13/08

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I have family members who are caught in the false gospel of prosperity. They are very hostile towards me because I refused to go down that road.

I have a decent paying job. I also am content with what I have.

If the prosperity message is true, why is it that my family members who earn much more than I do, have lost almost everything they have and are one step away from being homeless and living in poverty.
---Rob on 7/11/08

Well, God uses that word restored with me sometimes. Ofcourse He is talking on a differnt subject. But what's also sad is that God is a God of love and nothing butt messages. God will send the wicked man to hell. And they will look up and be amazed, at how could a loving God do this to me! God is a God of Holy love. He hates sin with everything that's in Him. God has great holy love for His people. When speaking of God's love, we should always put the holy before the love. Don't forget Jesus is the author of the Old and the New Testament. Have a good day.
---catherine on 7/11/08

To fully appreciate the significance of the blessing of Joseph's two sons, we need to understand some background with regard to both HISTORY and PROPHECY in relation to Israel.

I Chro5:1 tells us the "BIRTHRIGHT was given unto the SONS OF JOSEPH",this means that through Epraim and Manasseh, God would fulfil the great promises of Israel's greatness! That greatness included the promise given to Jacob in Gen 35:11. The account of the blessing is recorded in Gen 48 where Jacob ADOPTED Ephraim and Manasseh as HIS OWN sons. Yet Jacob went further then this though Manasseh was older he GAVE a GREATER blessing to EPHRAIM. In FACT Ephraim is God's first born.Jer.31:9
---gracynluv on 7/11/08

Restored means to put back in its original condition. Many believe, they are being restored back to the original state of Adam and Eve. That means the ability to sin and die all over again.

With Adam and Eve, evil was able to enter into the Garden of Eden. It would appear sin entered the universe long before Adam & Eve and The Garden was a small piece of real estatenot the whole earth.

With redemption, the earth itself is waiting alsoRomans 8.

In Heaven, nothing evil will enter in.

We wont be flesh made out of the dust of the earth, but be Glorified together with Christ, having NEWER and BETTER than the beginning, immortality in every way THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.

Praise God!!
---kathr4453 on 7/11/08

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Jer31:9, God said, "For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My first-born." How can the people of Ephraim be God's firstborn? God is Spirit Jn4:24, so to be called "God's firstborn," wouldn't it make sense that the people of Ephraim must be born of God's Spirit? Jn3:5 Jesus answered,I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he CAN NOT enter.

If Ephraim is God's "firstborn", then Ephraim became born of Spirit,according to Ez 37:15-23, God will one day REUNITE Ephraim and Judah, then in Jer31:9 God says that between the people of Ephraim and the people of Judah, combined, make up all of Israel, Ephraim became born of Spirit before the Jewish people then Ephraim is God's firstborn.
---gracynluv on 7/11/08

The Bible is clear, that the Jews are God's specially chosen people (Romans 9:1-5, 11:28) and *Gentile* Romans (Italians?) were also in on crucifying Jesus, and plenty of Jews refused to have any part of it.

I used to trust that being devoted to Jesus meant having as little of this life's things as possible. Yet, I was a worry drunk, with very much of this world's worry (o: The prosperity message makes a point > it's not unspiritual to have nice things and emotions pleasant. But we can be misled to *seek* pleasure and material abundance.

The real best of everything to seek is God, and how Paul was
*unconditionally content* > Philippians 4:11-13 > whether he was full or hungry, abounding or suffering need > 1 Timothy 6:6-8.
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/11/08

What's sad today among many professing Christians is they live continually in the OT, pointing fingers and those bad bad Jews, who lived without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and under strict LAW, that no one could keep, except Christ Himself.

They BLAME the Jews for Jesus death, all the while God stating HE GAVE His only Begotten Son.Jesus as well stating, no one can take my life from me I lay it down willingly.

Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Israel had accepted the Messiah?

No Cross, No atonement for sin..just a Kingdom ruled by a Rod of Iron.

Have we FORGOTTEN original sin????? EVERYONE DIED PERIOD!

We're not restored...we're REDEEMED!!! BIG difference!!Genesis 3:15
---kathr4453 on 7/11/08

Jesus came to bring about a spiritual RESTORATION. He brought the New Covenant into the world in his blood (Matt. 26:28). Through Christ, the church WHICH combine JEWS AND GENTILES is the true Israel of God. Jesus himself was the TRUE Israel. He was everything that Israel WAS supposed to be, but never was. They never lived up to what they were supposed to be, UNTIL Jesus came, and, he, as the promised SEED of Abraham, was the true Israel. One of the metaphors the Jews used for their people was the vine (Jer2:21), but know that when Jesus Christ came he MADE IT CLEAR that HE was THE VINE (Jn 15). The church is his body, he is the head of it. The church is therefore, also the Israel of God. It is the true Israel, the chosen people,the BRIDE!
---gracynluv on 7/10/08

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Gracy, you need to read Hosea 7 concerning Ephraim. Also note in Revelation 7, his brother is mentioned but guess what Ephraim. Must have something to do with Hosea 7.

But then again, if WOF is telling YOU YOU are the spiritual seed of Ephraim, and YOUR NEW Israel (that OTHER Church)??, is the spiritual seed of Ephraim, they may be correct. Not a good outlook, but I think right on the money here!

Gracy, I've decided after what the Lord just showed me here, YOU are preaching ANOTHER Gospel......Paul calls accursed.

Anyway, Good Night and Good Luck! I'm done debating this subject with you.

Don't want to give you more opportunity to preach a false Gospel.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/08

Rom11:26 can provide a satisfied feeling for the spiritually lazy in God's church. After all "I'm a blood-line Israelite, (or have been grafted into Israel), so I WILL be saved," the thoughts might go. But what are these verses really saying? In Rom10:1, desire is Strong's #2107, meaning "satisfaction(subj.) delight or kindness..." Paul was only stating his "WISH" and even felt so strongly about this subject that he prayed that he was WILLING to SACRIFICE his OWN salvation in order that ALL Israel MIGHT be saved.Rom 9:2-3: I have great SORROW and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I COULD WISH that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ FOR THE SAKE of my brothers, THOSE of my own race." (NIV)
---gracynluv on 7/10/08

****Over all the church is spiritual Ephraim carrying the NAME and nature of ISRAEL. ****

And WHERE does Paul teach this? or Peter.....It's Covenant Theology Speculation spiritualizing away what they refuse to believe. The Church is not Spiritual Ephraim. The Church is no longer Jew or Gentile ....not BOTH...but ONE NEW MAN in Christ ......

Don't you understand what and Who the Church is....

I've heard it all before....Denmark is a lost tribe, England is a lost tribe, Spain is a Lost tribe.....anything BUT the Truth...Israel is Israel Period.

Gracy read Genesis 49 and the Prophecy Jacob told his sons concerning the last days ...which is the Great Tribulation.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/08

Gracy, I believe it is you who believe in Replacement/Reconstruction/Kingdom NOW Theology, who will help bring anti-christ his platform to stand on, as he comes bringing in false signs and wonders through WOF teachers, having many in admiration of him as he gathers Gentile Arrogance against Israel.

But Gracy Read Acts 1 6 & & with Matthew 24....Only the FATHER knows the Day the Lord will Come restoring teh Kingdom to Israel and wipe that arrogance right off the face of those who failed to read Zachariah 12 & 13
---kathr4453 on 7/10/08

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Gracy, one of the very reasons for the Time of Jacob's trouble...the Great Tribulation Period, is to bring Israel to her Knees....not the Church.

Peter asked Jesus before he ascended to Heaven...Will you at this time (at the same time the church is being built) RESTORE the Kingdom to Israel What did JESUS answer back? Acts 1: 6, 7.

NO There cannot be two entirely different messages going on at the same time.

Jews TODAY who reject the GOSPEL will be LOST forever...yes, I agree,....but...

Don't ENVY Israel it's future blessings. You can't have yours and theirs too!!!!!

The Church (both Jew and Gentile) has a Heavenly calling....Earthly RESTORED Israel after the Trib has an Earthly calling.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/08

Paul shares, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly" (in Romans 2:28), "but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart" (2:29). So God's Israel will be Jews and Gentiles who have become
*inwardly* circumcised. Plus, Jesus told a number of Jews "you will die in your sin", in John 8:21. So, clearly Jesus Himself said there were Jews who will NOT be in the true Israel of God.

Paul says "godliness with contentment is great gain", in 1 Timothy 6:6. "And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content." (6:8) And Philippians 4:11-13 shows how Paul *prospered* by staying
*unconditionally content*, while full or hungry, abounding or suffering need (o:
---Bill_bila5659 on 7/10/08

Kat, please read Gen 48:16

What's in a NAME?

When JACOB/ISRAEL blesses Joseph's CHILDREN he says "LET MY NAME BE NAMED UPON THEM" Israel is saying to Joseph that His name will carry through the children now if his NAME is Israel then what NAME do the children carry, Church? No ISRAEL. Something else important that the name Israel means UPRIGHT ones of God so do you see what ALL had to carry that name?

Most Christians today do not realize that they have no other name to come under but Israel since some may belong to the House of Israel the ten tribes who were lost and now redeemed in the Messiah of Israel. Over all the church is spiritual Ephraim carrying the NAME and nature of ISRAEL.
---gracynluv on 7/10/08

I would also like to say if you believe the "CHURCH" which is the Body of Christis DISTINCT and is separate from Israel you commit a sin against the God of Israel since by God's definition the 'church' that has accepted the Messiah are fully part of the commonwealth of Israel (OLIVE TREE), who are you to say we are not? More importantly we are all Hebrews by definition just like our father Abraham who was not Jewish that means the church today in God's eyes are part of the olive tree Israel of God and this is not replacement theology.

When you are grafted into a tree do you become a separate tree? No, you become the same TREE thus the root is not JEWISH the ROOT is the Rock of the Messiah of Israel or Yahweh Elohim of Israel.
---gracynluv on 7/10/08

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Kat, seems to me you believe in the Dual covenant theology of Christian Zionism that is been falsely taught by many churches around the world especially here in the U.S.

To declare that the Jewish people can still be in covenant with the Lord under the Old Covenant, living in light of the Torah, is to agree with the Pharisees who REJECTED Jesus Christ two thousand years ago. To declare that message is to oppose the very message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not only that but the apostle John warned us about those who have an antichrist spirit in 1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
---gracynluv on 7/10/08

If you were to ask many of the Jewish people, whether or not they believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah, they would answer "NO" without any problem at all. The very reason that the Jewish apostles were persecuted and put to death by people like Paul (before he was saved) was because they preached Jesus as the Messiah! So here we are almost two thousand years later, being told by a Christian minister(John Hagee) that the Jewish people can be saved by living in light of the Torah. Once again I tell you that it makes the gospel message that Peter and Paul preached, and all the others preached, seem like a waste of time. After Paul was converted the Jewish people wanted to kill him, but the Lord preserved him.
---gracynluv on 7/10/08

Nowhere in the New Heaven and Earth will there be anything called The Throne of David. Why would God name His eternal forever Throne AFTER a mortal? This is Christs Earthly Reign. In The New Heaven and Earth, it is called the Throne of GOD...period!!

His Earthly Reign will be a time of Peace for 1000 years.

A baby will die at 100.

In Heaven, no one will die.....ever.

No Carcasses to bury either.

During His earthly Reign, People will rebuild houses, and strangers will not occupy.

In Heaven, no one will be re-building anything.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/08

Amen Gracynlove,
Very well said.
---duane on 7/9/08

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Gracy, you believe the church is the New Israel, a mixture of Covenant Theology /WOF.

There are 7 Covenants UNDER the umbrella of the Everlasting Covenant. Only the New Covenant was replaced with the Law of Moses. You seem to believe that the New Covenant also replaced the others as well.

Romans 11, a Deliverer will come out of SION (Heaven) ALL Israel will be saved, the second coming of Jesus Christ, to set up His Kingdom Reign, after the Great Tribulation, when the Church has been raptured/translated returning with Christ , fulfilling the Davidic Covenant, as Jesus takes the Throne of David, settling in the Land promised unconditionally under the Palestinian Covenant.

FAITH is believing what GOD has said!
---kathr4453 on 7/9/08

Do not rely on men to interpret the Word for you since most are false teachers. Depend on The guidance of the Holy Spirit for understanding the Word. God NEVER contradicts His written Word.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/8/08

Duane, I agree.
Divine Faith is a believing of what God has revealed, because God has said it, or revealed it. FAITH and OBEDIENCE are joined together, because there is no TRUE FAITH but what is FOLLOWED with OBEDIENCE, and no TRUE OBEDIENCE but what FLOWS from FAITH. Faith is the loadstone of obedience, and obedience the touchstone of faith, as appears from James 2:They that lack Faith cannot be holy, and they that have TRUE Faith, their Faith will work by love.

That all works WITHOUT Faith are dead, and so cannot please God. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and without or separate from Christ we can do nothing. Faith is the principle of all holy and acceptable obedience.
---gracynluv on 7/8/08

The Assyrian and Babylonian captivities should have taught Israel a lesson. However, on the NT, the same disastrous pattern emerges.

God has a message for the people.(Matt 11:28, cf. Jeremiah 4:1, Isa 28:12).

The people refuse to listen to God.
[you were not willing, you refused] (Matt23:37).

God causes tongues to be heard as a sign of judgment.
(Matt 23:38, 24:2).

The destruction of Jerusalem took place in 70 A.D. as the city was invaded by the Romans, led by General Titus. For the next two thousand years the living God would not dwell in a temple made with hands, but He would dwell in a ubody of BELIEVERS(1 Cor 3:16-17, 1 Cor 6:19). Gods program was shifting from Israel to the Church.
---gracynluv on 7/8/08

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Obedience doesent produce or increase faith. Its the other way, Faith produces obedience. Anything not of faith is sin.
If you have faith, you WILL be obedient, you WILL have good works, ect. Faith WILL always produce.
---duane on 7/8/08

TRUE: Jew and Gentile make up the the Church.

False: national Israel will be save.

Kat, a REMNANT WILL BE SAVE and this Jewish remnant would ALSO include a remnant from ALL the nations[Isa. 28:22]. Together, they would form "ONE flock with ONE Shepherd," in a "covenant of peace" [Ezek. 34:11-31]. The people resulting from this unconditional election would constitute the TRUE Israel.

"Christ will take the throne of David" The promise will be fulfilled at the end of the age, when the Lord sits on the throne of His glory to judge all. Then shall the throne of David be established on earth, but not literally in Israel, but in a the New Jerusalem which cometh down from Heaven.Rev.21:2
---gracynluv on 7/8/08

First ask yourself, what is prosperity? Prosperity is a successful, flourishing, or thriving condition, especially in good fortune. Then ask yourself is it scriptural? Yes. It is in the bible. Deuteronomy 23:6, 1 Samuel 25:6, and in many more scriptures. If I tell you all the scripture then you would be reading this forever. It's not false teaching, if it is than the bible should be wrong, right? The Word of God is never wrong. God do wants us to prosper in everything we do, but we need to go good in His eyes. Prosperity isn't all bad. All we need to do is turn prosperity around.
---antoa7855 on 7/8/08

Don't rejoice to quickly there Gracy:

WHEN did Isaiah 14 come to Pass? When was the WHOLE EARTH EVER AT REST?? VS 7

Those who mock Romans 11,

22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

24The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

25That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: .......
---kathr453 on 7/8/08

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Paul said be not ignorant of this Mystery.
Yes Kat don't be ignorant of this Mystery.

1. The root cannot be unbelieving Israel because they are the branches that were cut off
2. The root cannot be the believing Jews, they are the branches which remained in the olive tree
3. it certainly can't be the Gentile believers,they are the wild branches grafted into the olive tree

The root POINTS to Christ as the one who would inherit the promises made to Abraham as the SEED of Abraham and who is also the CENTER of the Gospel through which God would bring together both Jew and Gentile in Him. I think the words of Jesus apply here, that salvation is of the Jews, but HE IS THE TRUE VINE. Jn15:1-8
---gracynluv on 7/8/08

AMEN Matthew!

Grace is the instrument through which salvation is made available to ALL of mankind, but it is made quite clear in scripture that salvation is NOT ONLY an "event" but as long as we are still alive upon this earth it is also a "process" that is maintained BY FAITH ("by [because of God's] grace are you saved through FAITH"). This same FAITH, if it is neglected and never characterized by OBEDIENCE to God's Word, will inevitably wind up "DEAD." SO being a natural Jew will not save you if you are outside of Christ. Being a gentile save through Christ, WITHOUT OBEDIENCE to God's command your FAITH IS ALSO dead.
---gracynluv on 7/8/08

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. A very stern WARNING HERE!!!!

Paul said be not ignorant of this Mystery.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/08

Romans 11

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well, BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, SEVERITY, but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF.

Believe the Word over a teacher!!!!!! Please repent people.
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/7/08

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Who is the Messiah of the Jews? Jesus! Who did Jesus die for only gentiles? Christian Zionism is taught by men, not by God.

Acts 4:
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole,

10Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. ....

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/7/08

If you look up to the Jews more than others. If you esteem them more highly than others then please read God's Word for you are disobeying God.

James 2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment,

3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place, and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

9But if ye have respect to persons, YE COMMIT SIN, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
---Matthew_from_LA on 7/7/08

Kath, There is no such thing as a Dual covenant that falsely teaches all Jews will be saved even if they do not believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God.

This is easily refuted by the Bible that says for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:22-23) and Paul saying the gospel is to the Jew first. Thus affirming they need to believe as anyone else. Jesus said to Nicodemus "Most assuredly I say unto you, unless one is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus like all Jews were looking for a literal kingdom, but first Jesus had to establish his Spiritual Kingdom IN THE HEART of his followers.
---gracynluv on 7/7/08

Gracy, GOD WILL turn ungodliness away from Jacob AKA Israel, and ALL Israel will be saved AFTER the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

God can have MERCY on WHOM HE chooses to have MERCY, whether anyone likes it or not!!!

Isaiah 14
1For the LORD will have MERCY on Jacob and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: , and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were, and they shall rule over their oppressors.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/08

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Kath, first of all, it is the Nation of Israel's UNBELIEF, that God had Cut them OFF, not because it was God's WILL for them to be CUT OFF. It wasn't that the Jewish rejection of Christ CAUSED Gentiles to be saved, but it gave MORE opportunity for the gospel to go to the Gentiles!

It's not Jewish vs. Gentiles. It is about UNBELIEF vs. FAITH. God will fulfill His OT promises to those "In Isaac," that is, to His Israel in the Spirit. Those who are only "the children of flesh, these ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: Ro 9:8. We should not expect God to fulfill His promises to an unbelieving Israel in the flesh, unless,those natural Israelites choose to believe in Jesus.
---gracynluv on 7/7/08

YOUR blessing comes through Abraham...long before there was an Israel, Jacob ,the Law, or any LAND etc. Romans 4....Galatians 3.

Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
---kathr4453 on 7/7/08

Sometimes we do not understand the callings on someone's life. The Bible was never complete, completely. There are a lot of things about God which was never recorded. Same in the gospels. A lot of what Jesus did and said was never recorded. This is why it is impossible to know everything.>>>May I suggest that each born-again, bought by the Blood of Christ, Christian, get to know God as best as it is unto you.++
---catherine on 7/7/08

Gracy said:Israel means 'He strives with God', for he prevailed with God in prayer until he received the blessing (Gen32:22-32). After Jacob was called Israel he came to SYMBOLIZE those who are BORN AGAIN of the SPIRIT of God through FAITH in Jesus.
Rev. centers around Christ and God's Israel IN THE Spirit, not the Israel of the flesh! ***

Gracy, Romans 11 is about NATIONAL ISRAEL. They were broken off so that YOU a Gentile could be grafted in.

The things people will come up with to explain AWAY God's PLAN.

Today both Jew and Gentile make up the CHURCH

TOMORROW, a whole different thing NATIONAL ISRAEL will be saved and Jesus Christ will take the Throne of DAVID!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/7/08

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Kath, Paul, preaching to the Jews in Acts 13:32-33 in other words the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham is NOT FUTURE but now, IN Christ.

The hope of Israel is NOT in a FUTURE appearing of the Messiah but in a present returning to God THROUGH FAITH. There is no redemption for the DECENDANTS of Israel/for ANYONE, UNLESS they acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah and trust him now for their salvation.

Israel means 'He strives with God', for he prevailed with God in prayer until he received the blessing (Gen32:22-32). After Jacob was called Israel he came to SYMBOLIZE those who are BORN AGAIN of the SPIRIT of God through FAITH in Jesus.
Rev. centers around Christ and God's Israel IN THE Spirit, not the Israel of the flesh!
---gracynluv on 7/4/08

"And so ALL Israel shall be saved " (Rom. 11:26), he is certainly not teaching us that every MEMBER of the Jewish RACE will be saved. But the SEED of Israel shall be saved that is to say, all THOSE WHO ARE IN Jesus and not one shall be lost.

It is a privilege to be born by natural birth a member of God's old covenant people. It is a FAR GREATER privilege to be BORN by SPIRITUAL birth as a member of the NEW.
Take Jesus' own words 'I tell you the truth, NO ONE can see the kingdom of God unless he is BORN AGAIN'Jn3:3
The whole center of God's heart was not A RACE OF PEOPLE, but rather it was that of a people who would WALK by FAITH. It was a matter of the state of one's heart and their spirit. Gal 3:28-29
---gracynluv on 7/3/08

"And so all Israel shall be saved"

Kath, First, recognize you're reading a letter that has ALREADY addressed who Israel is several chapters previously. Paul has ALREADY elaborated extensively on,that a NATURAL BLOODLINE would avail them nothing.(1:3,9:8)
The key here is that FAITH, not Jewishness, makes you a TRUE offspring of Abraham(and Jacob). So how is it that Abraham and Jacob become fruitful and multiply with a "multitude of nations?" The answer is that when Christians witness to the gospel and win unbelievers to faith in Christ,gentile and Jew who puts FAITH in Christ becomes a "child of Abraham" Gen 15:6 cf Gal3:6-8 And truly Abraham is the father of MANY NATIONS, not just one nation GEN.12:3
---gracynluv on 7/3/08

Could words be clearer than this?

For he is NOT a Jew, which is one OUTWARDLY(PHYSICALLY, NEITHER is that circumcision, which is OUTWARD in the FLESH: BUT HE IS A JEW, which is one INWARDLY: and [CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEARTS] in the Spirit, and NOT in the LETTER.. Rom. 2:28, 29.

NEITHER, because they are the seed of Abraham, ARE THEY ALL children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed by called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, THESE ARE NOT the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the SEED. Rom. 9:7, 8.

KNOW YE THEREFORE that they WHICH ARE OF FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal.3:6,7. Faith in Christ(SEED) and circumsicion IN the heart is true Israel.
---gracynluv on 7/3/08

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Gracy, how do you explain these verses?

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JACOB
(SO NOW Jacob IS the Church too?? And the Church needs to have ungodliness turned away from them)

27For this is my covenant unto them ( WHO), when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they(WHO ARE THEY) are enemies for your who is YOUR ? sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. (WHO)

No matter how hard you try, you cannot get around thee scriptures.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/08

Gracy, no where in scripture is the Church referred to as the NEW Israel.

This must be the warning Jesus was telling those in Smyrna who had some bother them claiming to be Jews and were not.

Gracy, come up to the NT where Paul teaches WE are God's CHILDREN, not My People.

We have a NEW and totally different relationship then those in the OT. Entering a NEW and LIVING Way......

Why would you settle for the earthly spoils of the OLD that will fade away , when you can be storing up treasures in Heaven that wll last for all eternity!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/2/08

But notice how the Lord reveals himself to them. He says, "I am the First and the Last. I am the one who died and who lives."

Remember that at the giving of the Great Commission he said to his disciples, "All POWER in Heaven and on Earth has been given unto me," (Matt 28:18). He is Lord of all HEAVENLY and EARTHLY FORCES. It is a GREAT encouragement to the Christians at Smyrna to receive this word from the Lord!

Although God often leads through paths of affliction, even if we walk through the valley of the shadow of death He is with us. Even in the face of unimaginable evil, by faith we embrace the God who never leaves us or forsakes us and trust in the sovereignty of His providential goodness.
---gracynluv on 7/2/08

I agree with the moderator that it is a false teaching that has harmed millions of Christians. One of my observations with those who have held to this false doctrine is that they have very little tolerance for those who reveal to them that there are many Christians high in faith but low on money. Also as a Financial Advisor myself, I have had much resistance from Christians about investing their money "morally". The usual response is "the more I earn, the more I can give". However, God never commanded us to earn money by any means to fund the Kingdom. Proverbs 16:8 says "Better a little with righteousness than great revenues without right".
---Ron on 7/2/08

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Is the church Israel? No, certainly not. It is however grafted into the inheritance of Abraham, which inherited is righteousness because he believed God.
The first time the church is mentioned in Scripture is in the same verse the Catholics used to show that Peter started the church. Namely, Matthew 16:18'"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it " Israel is elect and the church is elect but the two are not mixed together until we all live in the heavenly Jerusalem, which John saw coming down.
---Mima on 7/2/08

Kath, how could you say the church is NEVER referred to as God's people. Don't you understand what Christ has done?

After the crucifixion of Christ the PROMISES made to ISRAEL had been EXTENDED to gentiles through Jesus' death and resurrection.

Jesus Christ was indeed, as Paul had written, "THE END OF THE LAW" (the traditional way of reading Rom. 10:4). The Israel of God was now constituted not by the DECENDANTS of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but by EVERYONE who came to the God of Israel THROUGH BELIEF in Jesus Christ.

This is the "NEW COVENANT, "new Israel", "the Chruch" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, has SUPERSEDED the OLD Israel(Judaism) as God's covenant partner as God's Chosen People.
---gracynluv on 7/2/08

Gracy, yes, one can study Rev to see what Jesus in fact was saying to the church in Smyrna

Listen closely:::

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Do you know what they were RICH IN????

The Rices that come through TRIALS, and TRIBULATIONS, and SUFFERING!!!! GOLD tried in the FIREY trials of identification with Jesus Christ and CALVARY.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/08

Todd1, so you believe ALL of Ezekiel 36 belong to the Church including the Land?

The only way anyone can believe ALL of Ezekiel 36 belong to the Church is to believe YOU were a disobedient ...what .... Calvinist to begin with. ???

God is making a NEW Covenant with Israel....He can't make a NEW Covenant with YOU because He never made an old one with YOU to begin with. YOU were never under the Law of Moses were you?

However YOU may qualify for the "Everlasting Covenant" God revealed to Abraham, that in him, will all families of the earth be blessed.

Hebrews 13:20 & 21 Jesus is brought through the BLOOD of the EVERLASTING Covenant.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/08

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I certainly hope we believe that the church replaced Israel. If we are not Israel, we have no part in the new covenant, for God said:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel...But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." - Jer. 31:31,33

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good, but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." - Jer. 32:40
---Todd1 on 7/1/08

Gracy, The Church did not replace Israel... The Church is a WHOLE NEW THING, inlawed to Christ. No longer Jew, no longer Gentile. but ONE NEW MAN. That ONE NEW MAN is not a GEW either!

And Paul did not say Worldly things, but EARTHLYY Things. He is referring to that other gospel spoken of In Galatians...the ones the lawyers brought in...teaching Kingdom Age Teachings.....These were Christian Jews who just couldn't make the distinction that it is two different Gospels....

The Church is never referred to as MY PEOPLE! The Church is realistically spoke by Christ as MY BODY!

We are A peculiar people.
---kathr4453 on 7/1/08


"MY PEOPLE" has gained a greater meaning to include ALL believers not just Israel. Those who believe in Christ become part of God's TRUE PEOPLE. We find this true in Hebrews 8:10.

One can, for example, study the way Jesus confronted and promised help to the NT churches in Rev 2-3. The church is God's people. A promise is like a golden key that unlocks all kind of otherwise stubborn doors.

Faith in the Promises are the backbone of the believer. They are what shapes the whole character of the church. In the bleakest of situations, the church can call out to God, and God WILL HEAR. God will not say that this promise has expired or that we are have gone too far down to be rescued.
---gracynluv on 7/1/08

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