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The Mountian Meadows Massacre

September Dawn is a soon-to-be released movie of The Mountain Meadows massacre, that killed people on a wagon train, September 11, 1857. Several members of the Mormon militia, disguised as Indians, and Paiutes attacked, killing the entire the wagon train. Will you see the movie?

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 ---John_T on 8/22/07
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I miss the contributions from men, they bring balance to the boards. I don't know how many women would be content for long to have a woman at the wheel and nothing but women in the pews. I'm all for sisterhood, the occasional womens' conference, but it wouldn't be long before a hockey game would break out in the Church.

Proverbs Chapter 20:10. Diverse weights and diverse measures, both are abominable before God.......
---Crystal on 5/8/08

Apostle Orson Hyde made these statements: "...marriage in Cana of Galilee, . . .Jesus Christ was married ... If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, ....highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it."
".....Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, . . ...."At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! . . .... JournalofDiscourses,Vol.4,259
---andre5846 on 9/15/07

Did you see the movie?

Jan 14, 1848 - Brigham Young instructs Seventy's meeting: "For the first act of adultery you may forgive a man, but if a man beds with a woman and does it 10 times he is guilty."

11 Mar, 1848 - Benjamin Covey is excommunicated for having sexual intercourse with two girls "less than Twelve years of age" who are his foster daughters. He is rebaptized and serves as bishop of Salt Lake City Twelfth Ward from 22 Feb 1849 until 1856.

oh yeah -
---Andrea on 9/10/07

andrea: it takes a more than quoting a scripture to make you a disciple of Jesus Christ. You must live as an example of Him in all ways. why would Jesus tell us we are either for him or against him. there is no in between. you can't yell praise Jesus one minute and then lie, argue, show hatred and mock or ridicule someone else for what they believe. the bible says whatever a man nourishes in his heart will be shown through his words, actions and thoughts. your words are loud and clear.
---ashley on 9/10/07

andrea, we are here to teach truth, not fiction. you are a lier if you teach lies. Jesus said in the bible liers will be cast out at the last day, not rewarded. many people pick and choose what bible verses they believe in and throw away the rest. you either believe the bible is the word of God or you don't. I noticed you are so blinded by hatred and lies of men, you don't know truth from fiction. my advice to you. ignore the internet. study the bible in earnest and you will see the error of your ways.
---ashley on 9/10/07

those who are exalted will become gods

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

same lie - different day

Please about the divisions the LDS is doing just fine - they have a sect for every county in Utah.

Get over it Mike - Its God or a god
---Andrea on 9/9/07

Bornagainism- is a social movement withen fundamentalsm.
Yes we all know the conversation between the Jord and Nicodemous in Matthew. 1000 sexts from a 1000 religions will be happy to offer their own unique spin on its meaning.

When the uternine water breakes we have our physical birth. Salvation in scripture is a free gift. Exaltation, also in scripture is another matter.
---MikeM on 9/9/07

MikeM - "born againism"

- do you deny the need to be born again?
---Andrea on 9/8/07

Andrea, Talking about family, a non sequitor, a classic ad hominum fallacy. That is irrelevant to any theological issues presented on the blogs. It is as relevant as if I said, "well andrea is irish and she lived in Seattle, and you know how those people are, so you cant believe what she says." To be credible do not fall into fallacious arguments.
---MikeM on 9/8/07

Mikey - you've taken up J Smith mantle - plagerism. True Prophets don't need to lie. They quote unashamedly and do not pretend. They are like Moses 'oh god who am i that You would use me'.
You are from a Christian family - hurting people hurt people. It was not Jesus that hurt you.
---Andrea on 9/8/07

2)MikeM-You do not need to believe me - just take it to Him. he can heal and bless a contrite heart.
The LDS is really more of the same you've been through. Controlling - explaining through their own belief system. Christ said whom the Father has set free is free indeed.
I don't often advise people to stay home but the truth is if you did not go to church - it does not effect your salvation.
---Andrea on 9/8/07

There are many coming out of fundamentalism (born againism)and their testimonies are heart wrenching, I know, I am related to some of them, others I email and talk to on the web. As to the Bible, throughout history it has been changed many times, booksa added, taken away. Basic history.
---MikeM on 9/7/07

Did anyone see the movie? Is it out?
Obviously - I don't go to the movies much.
---Andrea on 9/7/07

lori - if you choose to go into a cult you will have a worse experience then you've had here.
There are many coming out of lDS and their testimonies are heart wrenching.
Cults always make it sound so perfect - life is not perfect. Cults can fill in all the blanks bc that is what cults do - they make it up as they go along. 4000 changes to the BOM alone. Good luck with them.
---Andrea on 9/3/07

lori...You know where all liars go? You keep coming on these Mormon questions pretending to be something other than LDS. It doesn't work with me. The fact that so many CULT questions are allowed to be asked on this website is probably why many of the long-time bloggers are no longer on this site. I believe that 99% of these Mormon questions are asked by Mormons who want to teach their false doctrine on this site.
---Susie on 9/3/07

I came here for reinforcement of my belief's. I got the opposite. Mal 3:8-10 tells everyone why they should pay tithes. 1 peter 5: 1-4 says men should never preach for money. I was a baptist. Now I am going to convert and follow truths of Jesus Christ in the LDS church. I just wanted to thank everyone here for opening my eyes to truth and not evil lies I believed were true until coming to this site. your examples spoke volumes to me. I feel sorry for many here. you will be cast out and you don't care.
---Lori on 9/3/07

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Tammy the LDS (your doctrine)teaches that you absolutely must have your tithes up to date to get into heaven. ( I believe I've quoted that)
I know of no Christian church that would say that- even though some act like it.

please do not twist what I say - I try to be as short and to the point as possible. I try to hear you with the attitude that you believe what you are saying and most of the time your remarks are not personally insulting.
---Andrea on 9/3/07

Andrea, are you saying that you can't find anything about tithing in the Old and New Testaments? As I said, it's one of those things that some Christians apparently choose to ignore. I'm not denying that I believe tithing is a necessity - but it must be done willingly and not begrudgingly.
---Tammy on 9/2/07

Tammy telling people that they need to pay their tithe before they can enter the kingdom of heaven is worse then coercion.
LDS has to tally up every year.

I can get the data about what LDS teaches but if its different then what I say - you put it up - you go research this nonsense - I showed you where it is - its your cult!

google anything go to the link then back it up on the LDS site - I can do it ALL DAY - OR you could seek Jesus Christ.
Put a tenth as much time into the gospel.
---Andrea on 9/2/07

Geoff ... john T said that to me to reassure me that he is the John T who was here before.
He will explain if he wants to, but I have to warn him that nothing has changed ... in fact things are probably more that way now.
---alan_of_UK on 9/2/07

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JohnT., you have discernment. You know those that are baiting you from a fantasy world vs those who would like to hear honest answers. I think that you were baited in the past by a deceptive blogger(s) who tried to turn the tides against you. I don't agree with you on everything, but I have watched the great deception from mocking monikers unfold. It is a real eye opener, to the depths they were willing to go to bear false witness and a false testimony.
---Tim on 9/2/07

JohnT., it's a stomach churner, barn burner, and a spiritual battle. I prayed for fantasy characters, it was one person. I don't believe those prayers were in vain. But the hoax, hex, jinx, vex - is a vexation to your spirit. I know this is why you left, J.T., Elder, and other flesh and blood Christians. I'm not interested in artificial testimonies, artificial minds, artificial religious points of view.
Stay strong in the Lord, J.T. and Christians that actually exist.
---Tim on 9/2/07

Well - if Bill McKeever printed it, it must be true!!

Another Gospel principle taught in both the Old and New Testaments that some "Christians" apparently find offensive. I have never heard that we escape damnation by paying an honest tithe - I have experienced by paying an honest tithe that "blessings untold will pour out upon you." Coercion? I think not.
---Tammy on 9/2/07

John_T, you said "Alan, you know the reasons why I left, both Crystal and Ralph are correct, too. However, I shall be more discriminate, and I will post less than before I left. I plan to lurk for a while before engaging more fully." Didn't know there was a purpose. Can't help being a little curious... Why did you leave?
---Geoff on 9/2/07

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Tithing by Coercion
By Bill McKeever

Most people would be offended at any organization which teaches that in order to escape damnation, giving of your financial means is mandatory. Yet, this is exactly what Mormonism teaches.
---Andrea on 9/1/07

There are born agains murderers in prison today. Their lives have been changed by the grace of God. In fact, one of my husband's best friends is an ex-felon who was in for homicide. The Lord showed mercy on him and allowed him to be released from a life term. He has been a minister for many years now. Church is not always in a building. Sometimes it is behind prison bars.
---Susie on 9/1/07

Ashley - I appreciate your kind words especially since moments before I read how stupid, bigoted and LDS hating I was. In fairness I do not hold it against you. I too would be very upset if the very foundations of my faith were attacked.

I try to verify anything I get on the net and have spent considerable time at Farms & FAIR.
I do NOT like the idea of shaking a persons faith and since it appears that many exmormons become atheists - its not something I would do lightly.
---Andrea on 9/1/07

As to exmormons becoming atheist does this concern you. BC when I left the LDS (I was saved just before) so when I left I went looking for a good church. I'm a Christian so I might take a break btw churches or look for something else but ahteism?
It makes me more certain that LDS are not Christian.
---Andrea on 9/1/07

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3) ash- As I said I was LDS while I was LDS I was as saved as I am today. I'd had a genuine conversion and fell in love with jesus Christ. So I'm not telling you - to leave LDS (youmight want to- not my concern) I'm TELLING YOU YOU NEED to get saved.
ASK Jesus into your heart accept what He did on the cross for you - read the scriptures as they were written to you.

its not about a denomination - there are plenty of people in all churches that don't know Christ.
---Andrea on 9/1/07

4) if you die thinking you need to go see Joseph Smith then I believe you will see him. but He is not with Jesus Christ of this one thing I am certain!
With much christian love -I am and will always be praying for you - I wrote you Tammy & Lori in my Bible - so you'll get prayed for - like it or not. Andrea
---Andrea on 9/1/07

{{ the prisons are full of born again christians who murdered men, women, children in cold blood.}}
Where on earth do you get this false information?!? Do a little research on religions and the prison population. My goodness!!!
---tracy3346 on 9/1/07

andrea, it may appear like many here are against you, but that is not the case. We are trying to open your eyes that the internet is no place to learn truth. You don't go to a lawyer when you are sick. if you seek advice about LDS's from a pastor or minister of any church other than a LDS member, you receive lies, hatred and falsehoods. that is why I ask a catholic what they believe or baptist what they believe. I don't look up satan to learn about Jesus Christ either. ask those who live it every day.
---ashley on 9/1/07

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In my research after leaving Mormonism, I found that Brigham Young's followers were part of the mob who killed Joseph Smith. Makes sense to me now. He wanted to practice his own religion and wanted no interference from the man everyone thought was a prophet. Things like this typically happen in cults.
---Susie on 8/31/07

I don't know if I have the time to see the movie but I may read the book.
---MaryG on 8/31/07

Andrea - maybe you've forgotten (or never knew) that the LDS refer to each other as Brothers and Sisters. When are you going to admit that you were never LDS - again you are misleading people either way because if you were you know better!!!
---Tammy on 8/31/07

andrea, if you had intelligence at all, you would see everything you write is through hatred, bigotry and ignorance to fact. As a LDS who has gone to the temple for 34 years, I am calling you a lier to your face. I won't beat around the bush. Everything you write here is lies to deceive others. If you were once a member, I can see why you were excommunicated. Jesus said whosoever does these things unto the least of these my brethren, you do it unto ME. I guess you have never read the bible either.
---ashley on 8/31/07

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The point of my blog was to show that everyone will do whatever they need to do to ensure the safety of their families. That was not the case when all faiths, pastors, ministers and others brutally murdered thousands of innocent LDS's in New York State, Ohio and Missouri for nothing more than saying they were wrong. the same is true today. the prisons are full of born again christians who murdered men, women, children in cold blood.
---Lori on 8/31/07

8 Oct, 1854 - In what Apostle Wilford Woodruff describes as "the greatest sermon that ever was deliveed to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a people," Brigham Young announces from the pulpit: "I believe in Sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for Wives.

see ex-mormons for notes about castrations and forced marriages and what really goes on in those temple ceremonies
---Andrea on 8/30/07


I'm sorry honey, but there is no way to justify the cowardly murder of women and children. I don't care what group or sect committed the crime, there is no way to white-wash MMM. The best thing that can happen is that we learn from this tragedy to prevent it from happening again.
---Kevin on 8/29/07

I have expressed experience with pentacostals in family, and in a large church. When you reach a certain level of awareness, its time to leave, for some this is easy, for others, its difficult. For most this happens in late teens.

A to the actualsubject matter here, My previous posts about the film seem to stand.
---MikeM on 8/29/07

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. Susie,
Thanks for the clarification.

---John_T on 8/29/07

MikeM - but the pentecostals haven't started any wars ...yet!

People should want to know the truth about the churches history - but all of it. Not one experience in your own family. If its your spiritual life its worth investing some study.
---Andrea on 8/28/07

JohnT...I was not referring specifically to this blog. I was referring to the countless blogs that have been posted strictly to discuss Mormon beliefs. Also, I don't have a clue who you are or anyone else on these blogs. There is no way to know if one "JohnT" is the same as another "JohnT". When someone posts here they can use any name they want.
---Susie on 8/28/07

I hope Fundamentalist become interested in their religious history. By their fruits you shall know them One looks at the fruits of the RCC and Protestantism, bloody wars, like the 30 years war, intolerance, pogroms, corrupt theocratic regimes, etc. etc etc. This is all a potent, and very salient testimony to the credibility of the origins of Protestantism, in all its variations, by their actions (with some exceptions), very demonic.
---MikeM on 8/28/07

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---Susie on 8/27/07

It is obvious that you do not know the history of my posts here.

I am not a Mormon
---John_T on 8/28/07

Melissa...I have come to realize that the majority of these Mormon question blogs are posted by Mormons who want to teach their false doctrine on this website. They are very good at deception.
on 8/27/07

Is this true John T?

I find many cults deceptive (JWS the worst)in their tactics but giving publicity to LDS history should (I'd hope) just expose their demonic origins.

I hope all Mormons get interested in their history.
---Andrea on 8/28/07

This propaganda film was not made to be history. I note most reviewers have panned it. Michael Medvid, a national commentator, not a Mormon, a conservative Jew denounced it. It will be seen by mostly fundamentalist with an axe to grind. One could make an anti-Catholic film, anti-SDA or anti Christian, and there are many. Hollywood, with few exceptions is today anti-all religion. Such tripe as this film always says more about the producer than anything else.
---MikeM on 8/28/07

As a teen I remember a film called Temptation of Christ. It was very anti-Christian. My wonder was the exceptionally ignorant people I watched that lined up to see it. There was also a film about King David showing God as cruel. Mostly such films dont do well, whereas the few positive religious films like the Passion of Christ, and years ago, The Apostle did so well. Surprisingly its more about leftist agendas than money. Maybe I can go and watch the people line up to see this Mountain Massacre film.
---MikeM on 8/28/07

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I had originally planned to see the movie, it is part of LDS history and no one argues that. Since reading a review by a non Mormon who stated that the movie treated the LDS in a very unfair manner, it doesn't detail the fact that the LDS had been tortured, raped, murdered and forced out of five makes no mention of the fact that there is no proof that Brigham Young called for the slaughter...there are diaries out there that say he did not. I'm certain many on this blog will claim otherwise.
---Tammy on 8/27/07

Melissa...I have come to realize that the majority of these Mormon question blogs are posted by Mormons who want to teach their false doctrine on this website. They are very good at deception.
---Susie on 8/27/07

It seems unfair not to mention those things (not that there is any excuse - but there are reasons it happened). I think fear played as much if not more of a role than fanaticism. I also find it interesting that all this Mormon stuff is coming out just as Mitt Romney is running for President.
---Tammy on 8/27/07


The point of the post is simple:
Do you plan to see the movie?

Yes, it is controversial, thus it is a good conversation maker. You wanna talk about the movie? OK

I am sorry that the post did not rise to your expectations.
---John_T on 8/27/07

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melissa - sorry to disappoint you but there are lots of scripture on the mormon vs Christian blogs etc - but be prepared with the word!
---Andrea on 8/27/07

Hi Melissa,

As you can see by reading the majority of these post this blog is actually a launching pad for John T.

Just answer the question, welcome him back, and move on if your not interested.

I think that would be the Christian thing to do.
---Marcia on 8/27/07

What is the point of this question or of any of the replies? I thought these blogs were to help people learn about the Bible and its relationship to our problems and issues. No scripture is even discussed on many of these blogs.
---melissa on 8/27/07

Lori - there were many terrible things done by and to Mormons. Read the mormon wars. Good people do bad things.

Some times good people lie and say bad things on these posts too.
I try to stick to facts. I only pointed out that they were not innocent of blood - not that they were the only bad ones.
---Andrea on 8/26/07

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andrea: put yourself in their place. the year is 1857. no streetlights or anything else. it is pitch black. You see small lanterns on the wagons so you know they are coming. men had come earlier in history to kill LDS's on sight. you are standing at a distance and attack the light. you wouldn't have a clue if it was women, children, or the man in the moon. they didn't have infra-red back then to see at night. all you have to go by is information that you are being attacked again. what would you do.
---Lori on 8/26/07

they thought it was assassins from the east. it is all documented in the history of the U.S.
---Lori on 8/26/07
disguised as children?
---Andrea on 8/26/07

people here are so stupid when it comes to what happened in history. in 1944, Governor Boggs of Missouri signed the extermination order making it legal to kill all LDS's on sight. after many LDS's were murdered, raped and tortured, a small band disguised themselves to protect their wives and families. armies of Brigham Young. hogwash, get your facts straight. a small band attacked a wagon train. they thought it was assassins from the east. it is all documented in the history of the U.S.
---Lori on 8/26/07

con't. people here wouldn't know what happened if they were standing there. what gives methodists, baptists, catholics, etc the right to murder innocent women, children and men that are LDS. it happened and thousands of LDS's were murdered in cold blood for believing in Jesus Christ. pastors, ministers etc joined in the bloodshed and laughed. if your family was threatened by evil men professing to love the Savior, what would you do to protect your family. if you say nothing, you are a lier and hypocrite.
---Lori on 8/26/07

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Also, ask those Mormon missionaries about the Avenging Angels. They were Brigham Young's own little assassin squad for anyone who dare disobey him.
---Susie on 8/25/07

The problem is that the Mormon Armies were ordered by Brigham Young to keep non Mormons out of southern Utah by mascaraing wagon trains or any other means necessary. It was not "BAD" Mormons taking the actions it was "Devout" Mormons doing the killing of men, women and Children above the age of 7. So when you see Mormon Missionary Youth coming to you door, ask then how the LDS Church is celebrating the 150 Anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
---notlaw99 on 8/25/07

Hi JohnT, I do not know you, but I am fairly new to this website. I would like to introduce myself, my name is Cynthia and JohnT, it is nice to meet you. Well now after the formalities, I do not know if I will see this movie or not. Why is it rated R? That bothers me a bit. Is it because of violence in the movie? I was just curious, that's all.
---Cynthia on 8/24/07

....your point?
---Andrea on 8/24/07

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Andreas unique definition of fundamentalist, "Just someone who sticks to the Bible as the final authority. Not a prophet or a pope"

Sola scriptora is a man made doctrine, (Luther coined it, but rejected it later.-
---MikeM on 8/24/07

Mike you accuse others of what I've watched you do.

Which cult do you belong to?

The signs of cult members is first their defensiveness. Your faith is being attacked by those terrible fundies.
Whats a fundamentalist? Just someone who sticks to the Bible as the final authority. Not a prophet or a pope.

I'm sorry your experience in Christianity was so sad that you seek comfort outside of His church.
---Andrea on 8/24/07

John T.

I would love to join in the excitment over your return, but I have no relationship with you. I do have a relationship with Christ and when he returns I think that is excitment we all can share in.

I look forward to the return of Christ, don't you?
---Marcia on 8/24/07

john t:

i heard the movie would be a great history film and i am looking forward to seeing it.
---Marcia on 8/24/07

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1. When I came across writings of the fundamentalist here I am re-reminded why I left it decades ago, my nieces, both who recently left bornagainism, also read them. They were reinforced as well. What I note, without exception are three attributes common to all fundamentalist.
---MikeM on 8/24/07

2. A. Ad hominum, Instead of dealing with the theological topics themselves, fundamentalist only offer ad hominum attacks to those they disagree with. B. Bailing, when any serious topic is raised, where free open debate could endanger their faith, they bail, run away from the issue, continuously. 3. Self-righteous posturing, This is what Mark Twain called narcissism trying to sanctify itself. This religious smugnessin groups gives the illusion of correctness, to them.
---MikeM on 8/24/07

3.The mountain meadows story shows some bad Mormons who did very bad things. History is full of bad Protestants, bad RCC, bad Americans, and bad Eskimos, SOME OF WHOM who did some very bad things. To extrapolate some real historical and equivocate such events with the whole is bigotry and myopia of the nastiest kind. Its creators of this, the shallow patrons of such tripe are indeed deeply crippled, inside. This is a clear example of the very myopic and often misogynistic disposition of fundamentalism.
---MikeM on 8/24/07

4. Only Jesus was perfect. I note here televangelist of all stripes,sincerity are parodied. Critical reviews of them offered, and posted. That is allowed, and ok, as those possessing true faith don't fear criticism. One of the pets of fundamentalism seems not to be allowed to be critized, or maybe I'm wrong.-? Whenever I mention something critical of his name, Walter Martin, it is not published/posted. That character,and those of such ilk, are above questioning? Does the spotlight only go one way?
---MikeM on 8/24/07

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5. 30-years-war, crusades, pogroms, slaughter of natives, witch burnings (mostly Calvinist) theological regimes, the list goes on, both atrocities and body counts for both RCC and Protestants. A myopic mind can always point a finger, aim a spotlight, but are unable to see themselves or themselves in the tradition they claim as the absolute truth. I have been offered pamphlets by shallow people before. It would be tempting, maybe fitting to pass out blinders to the wholly myopic people who see this film.
---MikeM on 8/24/07

JohnT: So good to see you, my brother. I have missed your sanity and wisdom. It has been awfully lonely on these blogs for poor, little ole me.

Seriously, I was out of the loop on this movie, but I will probably see it when it comes out on DVD. I rarely get to the theater. I am too cheap and too busy to go there. I now have three jobs, or will after the school year starts.
---Trish9863 on 8/23/07

Dominated by outspoken, self-absorbed women who pick and choose scripture and generally are not teachable. Most guys aren't interested in participating in an online form of "The View".
---ralph7477 on 8/23/07
Then 'most' guys should get on with it - if there were men willing to give account for themselves....
you and crystal make a good team.
---Andrea on 8/23/07

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