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Believers In Works

Are law keepers by definition believers in works?

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 ---Mima on 10/25/07
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Thanks Duane.

I must point out you originally stated, "the law brings...the wrath of God."

You'll notice Rom 4:15 actually says the law brings "wrath", not "God's wrath". Big difference.
Again I submit Rom 15:4 which states the OT brings hope.

The fundamental issue is how the law is used.
Law + Faith = Righteousness
Law - Faith = Wrath (The Pharisees were angry dudes)
---AG on 11/1/07

Sorry, its Romans 4:15..
---duane on 11/1/07

Christ taught the two great laws are to love God and love your neighbor. These two laws were reemphasized by Christ and are still applicable to us. On them "hang all the laws and the prophets". So if we follow Christ, we will follow the two great commandments, and if we follow these two great commandments, we will be following all the rest. If we don't try our best to follow Christ's teachings and repent and try again everytime we fail, I don't know how we can call ourselves Christians.
---stephen on 10/31/07

The most difficult book in the Bible is Paul's letter to the Romans. Peter warns that Paul's writings are hard to understand and that the unlearned and unstable twist it to their own destruction.

Romans does indeed say in 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

But that does not negate everything else that Paul said in that same epistle. It must be read in context.
---lorra8574 on 10/31/07

You said, "all those rules are meaningless. If your heart is right with Christ"

I completely agree, AND conversly if your heart is right with Christ those rules are meaningFUL.

The Pharisees perverted the law by equating it to salvation, but we know that apart from God the Father, Son & Holy Spirt there is no salvation.
Now all believers, thru the Spirit, can rejoice in the boudaries of God's laws like king David.
---AG on 10/31/07

Not sure where you're coming from brother.
Romans 15:1 says, "We who are strong ought to put up with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves."

However, concerning your "GOD'S LAW = GOD'S WRATH" equation, I submit the Romans 15:4 equation: OT SCRIPTURE = HOPE.
---AG on 10/31/07

Its not my equation, its Romans 15:1
---duane on 10/31/07

You said, "What the law brings is the wrath of God."

Which laws brought about God's wrath that flooded the whole earth or destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah?

Either God's law preceded Moses or your equation is false.
---AG on 10/31/07

Are law breakers by definition believers in sin?
---jerry6593 on 10/31/07

What the law brings is the wrath of God.
Live through faith and have peace with God.
---duane on 10/31/07

I think it depends on whether one is keeping the law "because it happens to make good sense", or "because you will feel justified by it".

The first is prudence, the second is legalism.
---StrongAxe on 10/31/07

What is the first commandment? Genesis 2:16,17. So it is that from the
very beginning there has been a commandment or a law from God to afix
the extent of our liberty. Did Jesus issued only one commandment? I do
believe it is Not so, rather he said: Luke 6:47: "Whosoever cometh to me,
and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is ..."
How many were his sayings on how many subjects?
---Nana on 10/31/07

"Are law keepers by definition believers in works?" I would say that they
are not believers in works. They are believers in God is what they are.
Many love the thief on the cross as proof that we do not have to do
absolutely a thing to be and to stay in God's graces. These types are those
who also consider that they could start working past midday and get the
same wages as those who started work at daybreak.
---Nana on 10/31/07

The problem with that view is that they have been around here long enough
to know that the Lord had called them to start work at sunrise. They are
already late with their imaginings and risk not to find work at all and as Paul
said, if you don't work, you don't eat.
---Nana on 10/31/07

What is it with you? You do not believe in the law and therefore you also do
not believe in working? No problem, we got a job for you that follows no law!
Gal. 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control, against such things there
is no law." That should keep you plenty busy and you'll be the law!
---Nana on 10/31/07

Andrea..your teachings has a lot to be u not know that Christ is the Law? The 10 commandments a transcript of His character we all need to follow by. REMEMBER THAT GIRFL your slam dunk again
---jana on 10/31/07

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Joseph: it should be "If there was no lawlessness, then Christs death was unnecessary.: As it is, sin still abound and Christ's death was required..
---jana on 10/31/07

Matthew 19:8, has Jesus stating: "...but from the beginning it was not so."
It was concerning divorce but I find that many other laws and precepts
came about for the same cause, "hardness of the hearts". Not to mention
hygiene, etc. Back to the starting line or "beginning" is where I see Jesus
leading. "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ,
he said.
---Nana on 10/31/07

The beginning is that place were the lost cease to be lost, they are found.
Found in this context equates to restored, restored to the first place from
whence they came. No, not back to the Garden but not far.
---Nana on 10/31/07

Psalm 119 ends at the same point were the lost will be reestablished:
v174: "I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD, and thy law is my delight.
175: Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee, and let thy judgments help
me. 176: I have gone astray like a lost sheep, seek thy servant, for I do not
forget thy commandments."
---Nana on 10/31/07

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AG - why is it so hard to see that all those rules are meaningless. If your heart is right with Christ you do not want to murder people, cheat on your spouse or defame your God.
be blessed.
---Andrea on 10/30/07

You can't break an OT law and then claim you are following the spirit. He won't lead you to ever break a commandment. The Pharisees didn't understand Jesus, because they had replaced the law with oral traditions.

Today we can love God just like David did, but if we murder, steal or commit adultry we will likewise pay a price.

Part 2
---AG on 10/30/07

God did not cancel a single commandment through Jesus, Peter or Paul.

At the same time, none of these commands have the power to save (they never did). Only the blood of Christ can save. Obedience to the law is an expression of love and and act of wisdom, but not a requirement for salvation (i.e. the theif on the cross).

Part 3
---AG on 10/30/07

You said, "We do not follow the letter of the law - we are to follow the Spirit."

The Spirt leads us to EXCEED the ltr of the law.
The Spirit instructs us to:
-have no other gods
-make no graven images
-don't take the Lord's name in vain
-remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
-honor their mother & father
-don't kill
-don't commit adultry
-don't steal
-don't bear false witness
-don't covet

Part 1
---AG on 10/30/07

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Mima: One of the best answers, I have ever seen to any question is given by---Josef to this question.
So true. Josef often speaks with wisdom, the power of the Word.
---Christina on 10/30/07

Every real Christian is a keeper of the N.T. Law, and is a believer in works, like Christ. Yes, obedience and Works Save: Matthew 5:16,20,42-44+ 7:12,19-21,24-27+ 16:27+ 25:21-30,34-46+ Mark 16:15,16+ Luke 10:25-28+ John 11:25+ 5:28,29+ 14:15+ II Corinthians 5:9,10+ Philippians 2,12+ James 1:22, 2:8,14-26+ Revelation 20:12,13+ 22:12-15.
---Eloy on 10/30/07

alan - bc saying that we do not keep "the law" does not mean we promote lawlessness. We do not follow the letter of the law - we are to follow the Spirit. (letter kills/spirit gives life)
The law is bondage - Jesus died to set us free FROM sin not to sin. But it is through the grace of God not the law that we attain righteousness
---Andrea on 10/29/07

"There are no law keepers, only those who believe themselves to be under the law"

Are you suggestiing no one follows the Holy Spirt? Becuase anyone who obeys the Holy Spirit is a law keeper, since the HS cannot teach anything that is conflict with the law.
Example: The apostles followed the Holy Spirit and therefore kept the law. Now we consider their writings to be Holy, because their writings are in complete harmony with the OT scripture.
---AG on 10/29/07

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One of the best answers, I have ever seen to any question is given by---Josef to this question.
---Mima on 10/29/07

lit.Gk: "For the Son of man will come in the glory who's Father of him, with the angels of him, then he will reward to each according to the works of them." Matthew 16:27.
---Eloy on 10/29/07

We have been saved and delivered from the kingdom of Darkness and translated into the Kingdom of our Glorious God and Savior Jesus we are led by the Holy Spirit who enables us to live moment by moment the Holy Life of Jesus Christ who indwells us to the glory and pleasure of our Heavenly Father. The do's and don'ts of the Bible are instructions so we know how to live our lives. God has not changed His mind about sin at all, and all unrighteousness is sin. anna
---anna on 10/28/07

There are no law keepers, only those who believe themselves to be under the law and that man must do thus and so in order to be in right standing with the Father. The righteousness man tries to establish for himself is as dirty rags. All have sinned and fallen short of the perfect standard of our Father. None who believe themselves to be keepers of the law are righteous. Why frustrate the grace of God. If righteousness could have come by the law, then Jesus' death was unnecessary.
---Josef on 10/28/07

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That is a peculiar question. And the answer is no. Christians believe in Jesus, not works. But as Christians we obey God.

Keepers of the Law from a Biblical perspective are those who keep the old covenant laws which includes circumcision. But while we are no longer bound to these laws, we are still bound to God's eternal laws. Most rightly accept that idolatry is wrong and we are not permitted to worship other gods - this was not a covenantal law, but one of God's Laws.
---lorra8574 on 10/26/07

Do you mean true law keepers... those who's hearts have been changed by their relationship with God, or are you talking about those that try to APPEAR righteous by their own actions.
Big difference.
Those who's hearts have been changed by God's efforts will definately be keeping His laws but it is not a superficial act of their own.
One thing is clear, those who don't keep God's law, don't have a relationship with Him.
Only God knows the heart.
---robin8683 on 10/26/07

Andrea ... How do yuo know that "Mima knows this too"?
I would assume that of course he would know it too.
But if so, why then does he ask the question?
---alan_of_UK on 10/26/07

alan - it would not be wise to sin and God gave us knowledge and a desire to conform to his image. That is the law we follow. Not ordinances. Mima knows this too

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace,

Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

---Andrea on 10/26/07

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WOW !!! Is Mima's suggestion that having been saved we just do not try to keep the laws ... or that we deliberately disobey them?
---alan_of_UK on 10/26/07

Gal5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
---Andrea on 10/25/07

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